Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...to deal with the abstract and go beyond the bleedin' obvious would be comical if it weren't so painful.
Ah, so you have to actually back up what you say with proof. Hard for ya huh old doggy. Can't make stuff up and get away with it. To bad.



Sorry, I bunched up all of your "science" refs, but I thought I'd make it a bit easier for you to follow along...Based on my interpretation of HAVICs post and as exemplified by the later diagrams, where is the lack of of science and measureable concerns?
The problems that you listed in your second post do not apply to the flush/baffle mounted design. You are putting the cart before the horse in so many ways its pitful. I don't know how you can interpret HAVIC's post to want his speakers IN FRONT of the walls when he states he wants them boxed in a wall.



If he was thinking alcoves, "boxing" or other euphemism for the layout in diagram(.jpeg #2), even YOU have agreed that there would be too many reflective surfaces and that it would be just cause for concern.
In none of your examples did you put the speakers flush/baffle mounted. I was only commenting on your actual designs, not a design with a flush/baffle mounted speaker. So don't try to apply my comments to anything but your designs.

In .jpeg#3, the monolith wall pictured would also be a "no go" due to the tunnel-like area behind it...
If you knew anything about the dispersion pattern of a baffle mounted speaker, you would see just how stupid this comment is. In a baffle/flush mounted design in a monolith wall, there would be no back wave of sound. So the tunnel like area behind the wall is irrelevant. If you use bass management, this concern becomes even more ignorant.

If it is determined that toe-in is required for proper imaging, how does one accomplish THAT in a flush-mount/"baffle" arrangement?
More cart before the horse thinking. The poster hasn't even chosen a screen size. In the absence of that information, how can one even think about coming to this point. Considering that said poster speakers have a excellent of axis response( 30 degrees off axis ±1.5dB 42-10,000 Hz) he might not even have to take this into consideration. More worries without information=waste of time.

If you incorporate any skewing of the loudspeaker's polar axis, one of two things will occur...you will have to allow the cabinet's outside edge to protrude beyond the plane created by the wall, in which case the enitire project's purpose is defeated. If the tilt is done to obviate that possibility, and the inner edge is withdrawn behind the wall's plane, the tweeter's dispersion pattern will most certainly be compromised...so now, in the design stage, some angling of the wall will be required or other structural compromises will have to be devised. Getting less and less simple. Are we thinking some variant on an exponential horn built into the wall? Well that's gotta' have a measureable effect.
For people like you who seperate recycleable goods for a living, curving a wall to accomodate toe in might be pretty difficult. But it is nothing for somebody who has a little construction experience, or one who hires a person with construction experience, this is nothing. Since the poster has NEVER said who was going to build this wall, this is another waste of time thought. More cart before the horse thinking.

And what about the wall itself? If your "baffle" changes the volume(as in cubic feet) or other salient room dimensions, so as to excite standing waves or create other anomolies, doesn't that give one pause? Standing bass-traps anyone?
You seem to have a profound ignorance of the difference between standing waves, and room resonances. First how would a stand alone baffle wall effect the internal space of the room. If there is a space behind it, then it would not stretch from wall to wall in the actual room. It would take up the center portion of the room leaving the sides open. That would not change the overall volume of the room, just put an obsticle in it. Secondly, there would be no standing waves to excite. A trip to school for ya old dog. Standing waves occur when a speakers omnipolar pattern(in the bass) of waves(front wave, rear reflections) spread out and interact with one another in the room. This leads to standing wave issues in small rooms. In a baffle/flush mounted setup there is no omnipolar pattern in the bass region. That would be supressed by the baffle wall, so there would be no standing waves to excite. Only speakers sitting out in a room suffers from standing waves issues, not speakers mounted in a baffle/flush design. This is some more of that conventional thinking trying to deal with custom design issues. Its apples and oranges.
Room resonances occur whether the speakers are out in the room, or baffle/flush mounted. They occur because of the room deminsions. Not the same thing as a standing wave your smartness.

How are any of these concerns not "scientific" enough? Certainly seems to get a bit more complex than your initial response indicates.
They are not scientific because they don't apply to a baffle/flush mounted design. Its just that simple. My intial response was inline with the original question, your responses are WAY out of line of the original question, and Stevie Wonder can see that.



When exactly did I say HE was going to do anything himself...I used the phrase "the hassles of construction". Fairly all-encompassing I think...Are the limitations of your thought process THAT constricted?...Have you ever dealt with contractors? There's more to any construction job than simply the pitfalls of whackin' yer own thumb with a hammer!
For someone in construction designing a stand alone baffle wall, even one with a angle in it to accomodate toe in, is nothing. The guy I work with can do a cinemascope like curved wall, so a wall with a angle ain't a thang. This is no hassle of construction, this is nothing more than the limited thinking of a wanna be smart person trying to figure out something way beyond his scope.



This is a public forum...people other than those involved sometimes read the threads (although participation seems to be running pretty low these days)...I make no assumptions as to the intelligence or ability levels of ANY readers...Unless otherwise indicated(by prior discourse perhaps), I try to cover all bases on a fairly basic level, the old LCD(no, not liquid crystal display) principle. Consequently, when I see something that answers a potentially complex issue with an entirely simplistic response, I react.
Riiight total loser. You were so busy analyzing this guys thinking, that you didn't even answer the question as it was asked. would the false wall effect anything else?

The answers you gave are well beyond the scope of this question since no other design parimeters have been discussed. You are attempting to read much further than the poster question, and that is why your comments seem so stupid and out of scope. The question was simplistic, and so was the answer. Every issue you raise is completely out of ignorance, not intelligence. The poster didn't need your help at all. He even had to remind you to stick with the question.


I have to explain nothing...I chose to use "sonic obstacles" as a catch-all for simplicity's sake...surely being "in the biz" you've heard some of those terms I used in answer to your inquiry...
Right, and I'll use standing waves to denote a room deminsion resonance. In the biz we do not try and demonstrate how we can use words to confuse the hell out of our clients. Slap echo, standing waves, room resonances are common audio language, not some fluff crap that you think up just to make things easier for you. The world doesn't revolve around you, or you lack of education and experience in custom installation, or the terms that go along with it.



Did I say HE did? You mentioned analyzing a movie theater in minutes...my specific experience has involved living space and the commensurate WAF...The latter has more far-reaching ramifications and I think most would agree with that concept...does that answer your question? Since you do have that void in your perceptive abilities, perhaps not.
He didn't say he had a wife. He didn't say he had children, all he asked waswould the false wall effect anything else?. It is obvious that you don't have any experience as it applies to the poster question, or your answer and questions would have been much more applicable to what the poster was asking. The only questions and problems you brought up are based on information that is not given, or not applicable to baffle/flush mounting at all.




If memory serves, YOU were the one who went down this road when you said in post #4:
However you did not address this in respect to PSB speakers which have absolutely no recommendation on placement of their speakers. You name other speaker manufacturers that have placement RECOMMENDATIONS, but nothing specific as you are trying to allude to. A recommendation is very different than a specific placement instruction.


I provided more than a few who most certainly do and while PSB has no specific distances, they provide very general placement guidelines and speaker/speaker/listener distance ratios...and as I recall I touched on them in post #6 and advised HAVIC to give them a re-read...However, HAVICs T65s ARE marketed as towers and they are designed for free-field placement and caveats are stated with regard for wall and corner proximity placement..
Your room is not a free field environment. A free field environment is an environment free of reflections like an anechoic chamber. PSB measures and voices their speakers in this kind of environment, not your room. If I mounted his speakers in a environment where only its front output is measured(a baffle/flush mount) it would measure substantially better than if I placed that speaker out in the room. I would gladly correct a 4-5db boost in the bass that you get from baffle mounting a speaker, to the 5-20db deviation you get in most listening rooms with the speakers mounted in front of the walls. Just because the only thing YOU know how to do is the traditional way of speaker positioning doesn't mean that its the only way to place the speakers. Remember JBL 4311, 4311B, and 4312? Well they were never designed for soffit mounting, but they are found in thousands of recording studios all over the world in that position. Its called adaptability. Some speakers can be adapted, some can't. The poster PSB can easily be adapted to this purpose as there is nothing in their design that is unusual.



.AND they also produce in-wall and in-cabinet models that are equally evironment-specific. In fact, the in-cabinet models have user adjustable "boundary compensation" switches. To most, logic would dictate a very specific product usage...and do try to recall, there are others who do have systems with rearward-firing ports or other design considerations that preclude any other placement schemes. Things just aren't so simple.
A parametric or 1/3 octave eq is much more flexible than boudary compensation cirucuit found in most speakers. The only account for placement IN FRONT of a wall, not in it. A parametric or 1/3 octave eq can provide exact correct for the measured problem of baffle mounting, a boudary compensation circuit cannot. It has preset filters. Once again you are harping on SPECIFIC use, and I have shown that some speakers(the JBL 4311 are a perfect example) can be adapted to baffle.flush mounting with no problem. The poster speakers do not have rearward ports, so this shouldn't even be part of the discussion. Once again you are adding things to the discussion that are not applicable to the posters setup.



Again, I'll refer you to .jpeg #3...see the monolith...see the existing rear perimeter wall...see the space bettween the two...that will change the sonic shape of the room...waybackwhen, before electronic reverberation, recording studios used duct work along with strategically placed speakers and mikes to simulate air and space...without some sort of mechanical dampening, this wall arrangement will have a similar, albeit less pronounced, effect...again not just a lick o'paint and toodles...
The speakers once again would have to have a backwave to be effected by the space. Since baffle/flush mounted speakers do not have one, this is not applicable to baffle/flush mounted designs. In a baffle/flush mounted design, what happens in front of the baffle is the only consideration that has to be taken. Your lack of understanding of baffle/flush mounting a speaker in betraying you at every turn. Did the poster mention any room deminsions? I think not!



We covered this earlier.
We covered all of this before, now can you shut up already???



"Quoth the raven"...sez you...A wise man expects the unexpected, only a fool thinks he has all the answers.
Not much is unexpected from the poster request, only a fool can't see that.



Do I hear the sounds of a Mexican hat dance done to the strains of "La Cucharacha"...And BTW, nice to see you've learned a new word..."monolith"...you still aren't using it quite right, but it sounds like a real impressive humdinger of a word...like "baffle" and THX...
Its pretty sad that you haven't learned squat about basic acoustics, and speaker/room interactions, or this whole debate might be worth something for you in the end.



Covered that one too.
So when do you shut up already???



Me no-no poo-poo...me show other side of coin and you no likey...

jimHJJ(...ain't life a b!tch...)
Its a shame your other side of coin doesn't work with this specific kind of design. So wrong coin jimbob. You do not know what I like or dislike, keep with what you know and it should take you about 3 millisecond to figure that out.