False wall and audio sound

[Resident Loser]

You read one thing, I am reading another...

Now only HAVIC has THE answer as to his intent...and I doubt he's even still around to provide us with it.

And FWIW, I have built walls and made structural changes to accommodate for assorted sonic obstacles and have used electronic and other environmental means to smooth out speaker/room response...I know how difficult and time consuming doing these things CAN be, but as an enthusiast/musician/recordist, I was willing to do the things required to suit MY requirements...others may not be willing or able to invest the time or seek out the knowledge required, or have the tools and the abilities to use them, which is why I said at the outset:

I don't think it's...quite as simple or clear cut a some would make it seem...

There is nothing in this question that states that he wants his speakers in the room. Why would he ask about putting a box around a speaker if that was not his intention? HE WANTS HIS SPEAKERS HIDDEN NOT EXPOSED!!

And just how did you arrive at this? I see nothing one way or the other.

I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases.

Since YOU seem to agree, kindly elaborate how putting a box within in a box will do ANYTHING to increase bass response? Kindly note it's "box" and not "baffle", not "wall"...simply "box"...quite frankly, without further clarification(which I attempted to obtain)it makes no sense at all. An acoustic suspension design or front firing bass-reflex already has had design considerations implemented in an effort to either isolate or use(as in the bass-reflex) the rear wave of the woofer...putting the enclosure "in a box" will change little or nothing, save for increasing the enclosure's apparent wall thickness....putting it into an alcove(a "bigger" box) WILL load the bass response, perhaps uncontrollably...flush mounting it within a wall(NOTE: this is no longer a "box" by anyone's definition) MAY have a marginal effect on the bass response(possibly an unwelcome one, particularly if the room's dimensions are altered to the point of encouraging standing waves) and it will most likely have an effect on the tweeters dispersion charcteristics, particularly if the designer's intent was to minimize cabinet diffraction and the anomolies caused by them...horn loaded or drivers with acoustic lenses will be less affected by such placement...as stated earlier, their patterns are pretty much "fixed" by design. I think the Genelec's tweeters can be rotated 90 degrees for horizontal positioning (the manf. rec is vertical), just for this reason. And, from what I understand, frequency response is only a part of any loudspeaker's "sonic signature", so electronic means(EQing, etc.) MAY not be the be-all and end-all in that department. But, that may be close enough for HT.

I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases.If that is true...

...and WHY would it be?...unless we are talking "alcove" (the "bigger" box)...and the resultant "loading" effects

would a false wall 2-3 feet deep have the same effect. would the false wall effect anything else"

AHA!!! So here we go...first "box"...then "wall" Two different things! You CAN"T make a comparison of one thing...they don't seem to be as interchangeable as you think, eh?

The same effect as what? Putting the speaker "in a box"? That's dependent on the size of the "box" for there to be any appreciable change. False wall? What configuration? Screen support? Infinite baffle? Quite simply, a "false wall" of any shape, design or label will effect EVERYTHING else...and will require after-the-fact tweaking, no simple cut-and-paste.

You really haven't addressed the poster inquiry at all. You are too busy superimposing your views over what he is asking.

Superimposing MY views? Like what...THX-certified? Actually, I'm trying to figure out precisely WHAT he's asking and address that...quite unlike yourself who knows exactly what he's suggesting by posting:

If you are speaking of a baffle wall, that will increase bass tremedously

Yeah, "IF" is real definitive...

jimHJJ(...your turn Kreskin...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Now only HAVIC has THE answer as to his intent...and I doubt he's even still around to provide us with it.

You never know, I would not assume anything. You have already been tripped up on your assumptions.

And FWIW, I have built walls and made structural changes to accommodate for assorted sonic obstacles and have used electronic and other environmental means to smooth out speaker/room response...I know how difficult and time consuming doing these things CAN be, but as an enthusiast/musician/recordist, I was willing to do the things required to suit MY requirements...others may not be willing or able to invest the time or seek out the knowledge required, or have the tools and the abilities to use them, which is why I said at the outset:

What the hell is a "assorted sonic obstacles"? You are beginning to sound like Lexmark3200. When you have the right tools and the ablility to understand the measurements, correcting room responses is not that difficult. I can tune a movie theater in fifteen to twenty minutes. You measure, and apply a correction curve. Now if you don't know what you are doing, and cannot effectively interpret your measurements, it will take you quite a long time. You cannot assume that the original poster will not go through whatever it takes to get it right especially given this answer;

I'm still not sure if I will go this way and would ask a lot more questions in the future to determine if I need professional help or if I can do it on my own. My current setup with a RPTV does not warrant the need for the false wall, but do to the nature of my tv, component video only, I was considering a front projector in the future. This prompted the idea of a false wall, so I decided to inquirer.

Thanks everyone for you input as I have realized it is a bigger project than just sticking them in the false wall and it will weigh heavily on my decision for the next tv/projector I get.

So he understands that this was not easy, and he also knows the effect of mounting his speakers in a false wall. Somehow he did not interpret my answer as making it easy as you have. YOu are a assuming that he walked away half cocked, and is going to build this wall with no additional information than what we have posted here.

And just how did you arrive at this? I see nothing one way or the other.

When somebody mentions box and false walls, they do not mean sit the speakers "proud" in relation to the wall. Boxing speakers in a false wall has the effect of hiding them out of sight, and since he thinks that i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall. in other words out in the room in front of the wall that the screen would be mounted to. This leads me to believe that he doesn't want them to be seen.

Since YOU seem to agree, kindly elaborate how putting a box within in a box will do ANYTHING to increase bass response Kindly note it's "box" and not "baffle", not "wall"...simply "box"...quite frankly, without further clarification(which I attempted to obtain)it makes no sense at all.

First, so we get an understanding here. He doesn't mean just putting a speaker in a box. He means cutting out a hole in a false wall and sticking his speakers in that hole. Why would you even think he meant just put a speaker in a box when he mentions a false wall? He never said a free standing box, he is associating the box with the wall which implies mounting the speaker in a cutout box within the wall.

Mounting the speaker in a box(or cutout in a solid wall) you put that speaker in a high pressure zone(close to the walls). This will excite all modes and nodes in the room. It has much the same effect of pushing a floor standing speaker right up against the front wall. It is called a boundary boost, and why the Genelec speakers have boundary compensation circuits in their design.

An acoustic suspension design or front firing bass-reflex already has had design considerations implemented in an effort to either isolate or use(as in the bass-reflex) the rear wave of the woofer...putting the enclosure "in a box" will change little or nothing, save for increasing the enclosure's apparent wall thickness..

I cannot see how this relates to what the poster said. He never mentions a freestanding box, he mentions a false wall and boxing(or cutting out a box in the wall and inserting the speakers)

..putting it into an alcove(a "bigger" box) WILL load the bass response, perhaps uncontrollably.

Since NOBODY mentioned an alcove I do not know what this is brought up either.

..flush mounting it within a wall(NOTE: this is no longer a "box" by anyone's definition) MAY have a marginal effect on the bass response(possibly an unwelcome one, particularly if the room's dimensions are altered to the point of encouraging standing waves)

If you took a monolith wall(solid) cut out a hole in the form of a speaker, that hole is a box. Boxes are empty cavaties that you fill. If the poster cut out a portion of his wall 20" deep that would flush mount his speaker in the wall, and inserted in a box.

All rooms have resonaces or standing waves. If you put a speaker "proud" in respect to a wall as you mention, you are still going to have standing waves, plus you are going to have phasing problems in the bass frequencies as the rear output of the speaker collides with the front output. If I flush mount my speakers, there is no rear wave to interfere with the front wave, and standing waves amplitude is reduced. You are always going to have deminsional resonaces in small rooms because the direct output of the speaker will reflect off of the rear wall, and back at the speaker. But this is alot less complex than the combination of a rear wave, front wave, and deminsional resonace. .

and it will most likely have an effect on the tweeters dispersion charcteristics, particularly if the designer's intent was to minimize cabinet diffraction and the anomolies caused by them...horn loaded or drivers with acoustic lenses will be less affected by such placement...as stated earlier, their patterns are pretty much "fixed" by design.

Sorry, but baffle mounting speakers has absolutely no effect on tweeter dispersion unless tweeter disperse sound 360 degrees. They do not because the wavelengths are too small. Most tweeter don't even disperse their sound 180 degrees. Since the speakers front baffle is closer to the tweeter than the baffle wall itself, how can the tweeter output be effected by the baffle wall. It is more likely that the front baffle of the speaker would be more of a problem than the baffle wall. The higher the frequency, the shorter the wavelength, the more directional the ouput becomes.

THX has measured many speakers in a baffle wall situation. Other than a bass and midbass boost, there is no other effect on the speakers performance. You learn these kinds of things when you attend their classes so you don't have to guess.

I think the Genelec's tweeters can be rotated 90 degrees for horizontal positioning (the manf. rec is vertical), just for this reason. And, from what I understand, frequency response is only a part of any loudspeaker's "sonic signature", so electronic means(EQing, etc.) MAY not be the be-all and end-all in that department. But, that may be close enough for HT.

As THX testing on many kinds of front ported or acoustical suspension speakers have shown, the only performance alteration of any speaker in a baffle wall situation has been a elevated bass and midbass responce. EQ can, and does take care of the problem. The use of bass management helps even more.



.

..and WHY would it be?...unless we are talking "alcove" (the "bigger" box)...and the resultant "loading" effects

Once again, he is not speaking of just putting the speakers in a free standing box. He is referring to putting a speaker in a box cutout in the shape of his speaker. I have already explained the effects of this.

AHA!!! So here we go...first "box"...then "wall" Two different things! You CAN"T make a comparison of one thing...they don't seem to be as interchangeable as you think, eh?

No, not two different things. He is speaking about(and keep this in context) doing a cutout in the shape of his speaker in a solid wall. That is a box

The same effect as what? Putting the speaker "in a box"? That's dependent on the size of the "box" for there to be any appreciable change. False wall? What configuration? Screen support? Infinite baffle? Quite simply, a "false wall" of any shape, design or label will effect EVERYTHING else...and will require after-the-fact tweaking, no simple cut-and-paste.

Jimbob, did you read what he said at all? Why are you having such a tough time putting this together? He asked does putting his 20" speaker in a 2-3ft deep monolith wall have the same bass boosting effect as boxing a speaker in a wall. Aside from the bass boost nothing else is effected.

Superimposing MY views? Like what...THX-certified? Actually, I'm trying to figure out precisely WHAT he's asking and address that...quite unlike yourself who knows exactly what he's suggesting by posting:

This response really surprises me. You act like Mr. knowitall and cannot figure out what this man is trying to say. From just what he has posted he has stated he wants to created a stand alone monolith wall that he can place his speakers in, and mount is screen to. He realizes that boxing speakers in walls will increase the bass, but he wants to know will he experience that same effect with a stand alone monolith wall, 2-3ft deep. Aside from the boost bass he wants to know if there is any other affect on speaker performance. You were so busy aurguing with me, and doing psycho-analysis on him, that you are unable to understand his request. Since you didn't know that speakers can be installed in soffits, maybe I shouldn't be surprised that you cannot figure this out.

Yeah, "IF" is real definitive...

jimHJJ(...your turn Kreskin...)

He is just inquiring, so his whole post is one great big if.

[Resident Loser]

...HAVICs "if' is OK...your "if" is OK...it's only MY "if" that is faulty...fancy that!

You have already been tripped up on your assumptions.

Assumptions? I made assumptions? I asked questions in an attempt to avoid assumptions...I laid out possible configurations(in print AND later on diagramatically) and explained my reservations re: each one...

What the hell is a "assorted sonic obstacles"?

Don't like my choice of words for the sake of brevity? What do you think it means? Modes? Nodes? Standing waves? LEDE? Slapback? You're the jargonista...I mean, you're the "exspurt"...BTW, a living room isn't a movie theater...the operative word is "living" as in "living with" in respect to the WAF, commercial venues are what they are...and hardly ever will the twain meet.

With respect to all the rest of your missive...context, context, context...You began taking exception to my initial response(post #3) in post #4...Regardless of your opinion, each and every point I brought up is valid and requires some consideration on HAVICs part...period.

Never once did I say "couldn't" in fact my exact cautionary words (post#3) were:

In either case, the last thing you want to do is go through the hassles of construction in the name of aesthetics and/or room decor, only to wind up needing further room treatments such as free-standing bass traps and the like.

Unfortunately, those issues must sometimes take a back seat when dealing with quality audio reproduction... in the final analysis, you may simply be better off with the loudspeakers positioned "proud" in respect to that of the projection screen.

Say it with me now, "reservations"...

And, of course, since you can't seem to tolerate any viewpoint or opinion other than your own, the thread thereafter spirals out of control. At issue are the first four posts...everything else is: did, didn't...he said, she said...accompanied by your bits of anecdotal insignificance.

With regard to you, again, never said "couldn't"...I said there are loudspeakers which simply won't work in such a situation(and provided examples), there are those that should be placed as per manf. guidelines(and provided examples) and there are loudspeakers that, by virtue of their design and features, will make the ordeal less problematic(and again, examples were provided)...all of which you seem to have some sort of problem with.

I also said in post #8:

...you can put your enclosures or drivers in any configuration you chose, but they need to be either designed for the purpose or mechanically/electronically manipulated to compensate for their environment...

Then of course we have this bit of paradox:

I cannot see how this relates to what the poster said. He never mentions a freestanding box, he mentions a false wall and boxing(or cutting out a box in the wall and inserting the speakers)....First, so we get an understanding here. He doesn't mean just putting a speaker in a box. He means cutting out a hole in a false wall and sticking his speakers in that hole. Why would you even think he meant just put a speaker in a box when he mentions a false wall? He never said a free standing box, he is associating the box with the wall which implies mounting the speaker in a cutout box within the wall.

Yet in post #2:

...I would not recommend boxing the speakers, that would create resonances that are undesireable....

HAVIC "never mentions" something and yet you don't recommend it? (BTW he does to some degree, unfortunately the exact meaning is somewhat vague and questionable IMO...as are other parts of his post)...

I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases

What definition of "boxing" are YOU addressing as "undesireable" in post #2? Are you seeing alcoves? Clairvoyant are we? Making assumptions perhaps? One of those OK "ifs"? Yep, you have the correct and definitive viewpoint, dontcha'? Careful now, you may be "box"ing yourself in...

Somehow he did not interpret my answer as making it easy as you have

Your response (Post#2) to HAVICs inquiry in toto:

If you are speaking of a baffle wall, that will increase bass tremedously, and get rid of some modes and nodes in the room. THX actually recommends this for THX certified rooms. I would not recommend boxing the speakers, that would create resonances that are undesireable. If you build a wall with speaker cutouts for the left, center, and right speakers with acoustical foam surrounding the speakers, you will get pretty good sound.

Gee, an "impressive" win-win situation and shucks, that last sentence sounds fairly simple and straightforward to me...couple it with some jargon and a seemingly innocent, off-the-cuff mention of some THX blather and golly...what's a poor, more-or-less noob poster supposed to believe? Just get out the ol' Sawzall and a bucket of Dutch Boy and we're off..."If you build it they will come..."

But then, I and hermanv go and ruin it...tsk...tsk!

I don't think it's...quite as simple or clear cut a some would make it seem...

The question was not really can it be done. The question is can HAVIC do it? Does he have the tools and or expertise to fix it if it doesn't work out? Speaker enclosure design long ago deviated form a box big enough to hold it all, to real questions about dispersion and diffraction. The tools to accurately analyze and fix any problems are not trivial, some speakers will work and most will not. The bass radiation pattern changes from 360 degrees to 180 degrees, the baffle step frequency will move, voicing will change. Crossover modifications are not excluded from the possible requirements to make this work correctly.

Jeepers, that sorta' sounds familiar...to which we later get this response:

Thanks everyone for you input as I have realized it is a bigger project than just sticking them in the false wall...

jimHJJ(...tsk...tsk...)

[PAT.P]

In the steel cage Resident Loser & Sir Terrence .

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...HAVICs "if' is OK...your "if" is OK...it's only MY "if" that is faulty...fancy that!

Your if's are not educated if's. Your if's are based on what you think, not what is science based.

Assumptions? I made assumptions? I asked questions in an attempt to avoid assumptions...I laid out possible configurations(in print AND later on diagramatically) and explained my reservations re: each one...

Assumption #1. The original poster was going to do all or any of this himself. He never stated that at all. As a matter of fact ne never stated he was going to do this at all. All he did was make a simple inquiry and you came with an agenda not supported by science at all.

Assumption #2

others may not be willing or able to invest the time or seek out the knowledge required, or have the tools and the abilities to use them, which is why I said at the outset:

You are assuming that this poster is not going to be more thorough before actually building, or having this wall built. Based on his response, I don't think that is the case.

Don't like my choice of words for the sake of brevity? What do you think it means? Modes? Nodes? Standing waves? LEDE? Slapback? You're the jargonista...I mean, you're the "exspurt"...BTW, a living room isn't a movie theater...the operative word is "living" as in "living with" in respect to the WAF, commercial venues are what they are...and hardly ever will the twain meet.

Since you made that crap up you'll have to explain its meaning yourself. I personally think its a bunch of fluff. Did the poster mention anything about a living room? Nope! Did he mention anything about WAF? Nope! So why are you?

With respect to all the rest of your missive...context, context, context...You began taking exception to my initial response(post #3) in post #4...Regardless of your opinion, each and every point I brought up is valid and requires some consideration on HAVICs part...period.

Is that so, well let's analyze those points and see if any consideration should be taken, or these points are mentioned out of total ignorance.

Point #1

Probably not a good idea IMO. First, your loudspeakers have been designed to work best within specific placement parameters as dictated by the manufacturer...this includes(but is not limited to) distance from side walls, rear walls, other large objects and even themselves. Gross deviation from these will likely provide less-than-satisfactory results

PSB's website has absolutely no recommendations of the distance from the walls their speaker must be placed. NONE!!! PSB speakers are measured in anechoic chambers where there are no reflections. When you place these speakers in room where there are many reflections( the average untreated listening room) all bets are off in terms of speaker performance. This goes for ANY speaker in ANY room.

Point #2

...in fact while some nodes or resonances may be attenuated, other, even more obvious and troublesome in nature, may be created. Changing the room's shape or dimensions without careful attention to the final dimensions, may produce "even multiples" which can cause standing waves and other artifacts.

I cannot see how a stand alone monolith wall will change the shape of the room. It may put an extra obsticle in the room to break certain modes and nodes, but not create more. Secondly a speaker mounted in a monolith wall would have no rearward reflections at all. That would eliminate some modes and nodes by isolating the rear sound waves from the front sound wave leaving the speaker. That is a huge plus, not a concern. Deminsional modes and nodes cannot be avoided and are a problem when you sit any speaker in any room.

Point #3

Tweeter dispersion characteristics may be affected and your ability to "toe-in/toe-out" for the best overall soundstage may be comprimised

There is no scientific or measured data that support the notion that a baffle wall effects the tweeter frequency response, or dispersion pattern. NONE. Toe in is easily accomodated during the design phase of the project. If required(and it may or may not be) you incorporate the toe in into the design of the wall itself. Not an issue really.

So all of the points you mention are easily dealt with, or not a problem at all. Your issues are raised out of ignorance of the practice of baffle or boxing speakers in walls, not out of knowledge

Never once did I say "couldn't" in fact my exact cautionary words (post#3) were

In either case, the last thing you want to do is go through the hassles of construction in the name of aesthetics and/or room decor, only to wind up needing further room treatments such as free-standing bass traps and the like.

Unfortunately, those issues must sometimes take a back seat when dealing with quality audio reproduction... in the final analysis, you may simply be better off with the loudspeakers positioned "proud" in respect to that of the projection screen.

In a baffle mounted design there is no need for free standing bass traps. And if you actually had any experience doing this, you would find that you need FAR less acoustical treatment than if you set your speaker "proud" in respect to that of the projection screen. It is a known fact that a speaker mounted in a baffle wall will measure far better than a speaker sitting in front of a wall. Speakers near walls create complex acoustical reflections, speakers mounted in baffles do not. All you get is the front output from the speakers themselves, a perfect half space environment. Once again you think that rearward reflections are helpful to a speakers response, when it fact they are not.

Say it with me now, "reservations"...

I prefer educated and experienced reservations rather than ignorant reservations.

And, of course, since you can't seem to tolerate any viewpoint or opinion other than your own, the thread thereafter spirals out of control. At issue are the first four posts...everything else is: did, didn't...he said, she said...accompanied by your bits of anecdotal insignificance.

LOL you should read this statement in the mirror jimbob

With regard to you, again, never said "couldn't"...I said there are loudspeakers which simply won't work in such a situation(and provided examples), there are those that should be placed as per manf. guidelines(and provided examples) and there are loudspeakers that, by virtue of their design and features, will make the ordeal less problematic(and again, examples were provided)...all of which you seem to have some sort of problem with.

Since this does not include the poster PSB's it is an irrelevant point. That is what I have a problem with. We are not referring various loudspeakers, we are dealing with the posters PSB's. Its a non brainer that some speakers cannot be baffle mounted, but that is not the case with the poster PSB's.

I also said in post #8:

This doesn't answer the basic question he asked though.

would the false wall effect anything else?

He already knew that a bass boost would occur, so some sort of correction would be needed. I also mentioned that bass boost, but aside from that, there are no other PROBLEMS(not considerations) associated with this setup.

Then of course we have this bit of paradox:



Yet in post #2:

If there is a single thing that I regret posting, it is this. It only after I read it again that I realized he meant boxing them in the monolith wall. Since he never stated in his original post that he wanted a monolith wall, it wasn't totally clear to me that was his choice. But when he responded to your question with a yes, it became clear to me what he was trying to do. I am sorry that you still are not clear.

HAVIC "never mentions" something and yet you don't recommend it? (BTW he does to some degree, unfortunately the exact meaning is somewhat vague and questionable IMO...as are other parts of his post)... What definition of "boxing" are YOU addressing as "undesireable" in post #2? Are you seeing alcoves? Clairvoyant are we? Making assumptions perhaps? One of those OK "ifs"? Yep, you have the correct and definitive viewpoint, dontcha'? Careful now, you may be "box"ing yourself in...

Ah, perhaps I channeled in the same assumptive and clairovoyant power you did when you assumed he would build the wall himself. My bad, but yours much worse!

Your response (Post#2) to HAVICs inquiry in toto:

Gee, an "impressive" win-win situation and shucks, that last sentence sounds fairly simple and straightforward to me...couple it with some jargon and a seemingly innocent, off-the-cuff mention of some THX blather and golly...what's a poor, more-or-less noob poster supposed to believe? Just get out the ol' Sawzall and a bucket of Dutch Boy and we're off..."If you build it they will come..."

Since his question was simple, it required a simple answer. His question did not ask "how difficult is this?" "what is required?, all I did was give him a basic guidline, not detailed instructions. He wasn't asking for detailed instructions, nor did he ask your opinion about the viability of building a monolith wall. He asked a very simple question I brought THX into the picture only because they have the knowledge, measurements, and thorough scientific base to support baffle mounting of speakers. Far more than you measly opinion and reservations.

would the false wall effect anything else?

If he wanted to know more than that, I would have gave him more than that.

But then, I and hermanv go and ruin it...tsk...tsk!

Oh, but do not forget his response to both of you

Actually the questions was what are the effects on audio? I seems that with proper planning, it can be achieved. Whether I like how it sounds after is unfortunately a question that can only be answered after an endeavor like this is taken.

So you got your assuming butts corrected. You both assumed that he was going to run out and build this wall based on the simple information I provided for a simple question. Your assumptions makes an a$$ out of you, not me!

Funny after telling Hermanv that eq and the use of bass mangement would deal with the issues he raised he responded thusly;

Ah ha! Found the disconnect.

It is a shame he is smart enough to get it and move on. The old dog is relying on his old tricks and cannot seem to do the same. tsk tsk.

Jeepers, that sorta' sounds familiar...to which we later get this response:

Ah but finished that sentence little half cocked old dog

Actually the questions was what are the effects on audio? I seems that with proper planning, it can be achieved. Whether I like how it sounds after is unfortunately a question that can only be answered after an endeavor like this is taken.

Based on some of the comments by sir terrence about front ported speakers, which mine are, lead me to believe it can be achieved.

I'm still not sure if I will go this way and would ask a lot more questions in the future to determine if I need professional help or if I can do it on my own. My current setup with a RPTV does not warrant the need for the false wall, but do to the nature of my tv, component video only, I was considering a front projector in the future. This prompted the idea of a false wall, so I decided to inquirer.

Thanks everyone for you input as I have realized it is a bigger project than just sticking them in the false wall and it will weigh heavily on my decision for the next tv/projector I get.

Nothing from HIS response suggests that my response to him was oversimplified. I just answered a simple question with a simple answer and a simple guidline. You on the other hand tried to poopoo something you have no education of, and no experience with. Stupid is what stupid does, and boy do you take the cake, pie, and receipe.

jimHJJ(...tsk...tsk...)

Back atcha old doggy

[Resident Loser]

...to deal with the abstract and go beyond the bleedin' obvious would be comical if it weren't so painful.

Your if's are not educated if's. Your if's are based on what you think, not what is science based....you came with an agenda not supported by science at all...There is no scientific or measured data that support the notion that a baffle wall effects the tweeter frequency response, or dispersion pattern...If required(and it may or may not be) you incorporate the toe in into the design of the wall itself. Not an issue really.

Sorry, I bunched up all of your "science" refs, but I thought I'd make it a bit easier for you to follow along...Based on my interpretation of HAVICs post and as exemplified by the later diagrams, where is the lack of of science and measureable concerns?

If he was thinking alcoves, "boxing" or other euphemism for the layout in diagram(.jpeg #2), even YOU have agreed that there would be too many reflective surfaces and that it would be just cause for concern.

In .jpeg#3, the monolith wall pictured would also be a "no go" due to the tunnel-like area behind it...

If it is determined that toe-in is required for proper imaging, how does one accomplish THAT in a flush-mount/"baffle" arrangement? If you incorporate any skewing of the loudspeaker's polar axis, one of two things will occur...you will have to allow the cabinet's outside edge to protrude beyond the plane created by the wall, in which case the enitire project's purpose is defeated. If the tilt is done to obviate that possibility, and the inner edge is withdrawn behind the wall's plane, the tweeter's dispersion pattern will most certainly be compromised...so now, in the design stage, some angling of the wall will be required or other structural compromises will have to be devised. Getting less and less simple. Are we thinking some variant on an exponential horn built into the wall? Well that's gotta' have a measureable effect.

And what about the wall itself? If your "baffle" changes the volume(as in cubic feet) or other salient room dimensions, so as to excite standing waves or create other anomolies, doesn't that give one pause? Standing bass-traps anyone?

How are any of these concerns not "scientific" enough? Certainly seems to get a bit more complex than your initial response indicates.

Assumption #1. The original poster was going to do all or any of this himself. He never stated that at all. As a matter of fact ne never stated he was going to do this at all. All he did was make a simple inquiry...

When exactly did I say HE was going to do anything himself...I used the phrase "the hassles of construction". Fairly all-encompassing I think...Are the limitations of your thought process THAT constricted?...Have you ever dealt with contractors? There's more to any construction job than simply the pitfalls of whackin' yer own thumb with a hammer!

Assumption #2...You are assuming that this poster is not going to be more thorough before actually building, or having this wall built. Based on his response, I don't think that is the case.

This is a public forum...people other than those involved sometimes read the threads (although participation seems to be running pretty low these days)...I make no assumptions as to the intelligence or ability levels of ANY readers...Unless otherwise indicated(by prior discourse perhaps), I try to cover all bases on a fairly basic level, the old LCD(no, not liquid crystal display) principle. Consequently, when I see something that answers a potentially complex issue with an entirely simplistic response, I react.

Since you made that crap up you'll have to explain its meaning yourself. I personally think its a bunch of fluff.

I have to explain nothing...I chose to use "sonic obstacles" as a catch-all for simplicity's sake...surely being "in the biz" you've heard some of those terms I used in answer to your inquiry...

Did the poster mention anything about a living room? Nope! Did he mention anything about WAF? Nope! So why are you?

Did I say HE did? You mentioned analyzing a movie theater in minutes...my specific experience has involved living space and the commensurate WAF...The latter has more far-reaching ramifications and I think most would agree with that concept...does that answer your question? Since you do have that void in your perceptive abilities, perhaps not.

well let's analyze those points and see if any consideration should be taken, or these points are mentioned out of total ignorance...Point #1...PSB's website has absolutely no recommendations of the distance from the walls their speaker must be placed.

If memory serves, YOU were the one who went down this road when you said in post #4:

I know of no consumer speaker manufacturer who states plainly how far from the walls to place their speakers, except Bose.

I provided more than a few who most certainly do and while PSB has no specific distances, they provide very general placement guidelines and speaker/speaker/listener distance ratios...and as I recall I touched on them in post #6 and advised HAVIC to give them a re-read...However, HAVICs T65s ARE marketed as towers and they are designed for free-field placement and caveats are stated with regard for wall and corner proximity placement...AND they also produce in-wall and in-cabinet models that are equally evironment-specific. In fact, the in-cabinet models have user adjustable "boundary compensation" switches. To most, logic would dictate a very specific product usage...and do try to recall, there are others who do have systems with rearward-firing ports or other design considerations that preclude any other placement schemes. Things just aren't so simple.

Point #2...I cannot see how a stand alone monolith wall will change the shape of the room...

Again, I'll refer you to .jpeg #3...see the monolith...see the existing rear perimeter wall...see the space bettween the two...that will change the sonic shape of the room...waybackwhen, before electronic reverberation, recording studios used duct work along with strategically placed speakers and mikes to simulate air and space...without some sort of mechanical dampening, this wall arrangement will have a similar, albeit less pronounced, effect...again not just a lick o'paint and toodles...

Point #3...Toe in is easily accomodated during the design phase of the project.

We covered this earlier.

So all of the points you mention are easily dealt with, or not a problem at all. Your issues are raised out of ignorance of the practice of baffle or boxing speakers in walls, not out of knowledge...

"Quoth the raven"...sez you...A wise man expects the unexpected, only a fool thinks he has all the answers.

If there is a single thing that I regret posting, it is this. It only after I read it again that I realized he meant boxing them in the monolith wall. Since he never stated in his original post that he wanted a monolith wall, it wasn't totally clear to me that was his choice. But when he responded to your question with a yes, it became clear to me what he was trying to do.

Do I hear the sounds of a Mexican hat dance done to the strains of "La Cucharacha"...And BTW, nice to see you've learned a new word..."monolith"...you still aren't using it quite right, but it sounds like a real impressive humdinger of a word...like "baffle" and THX...

Ah perhaps I channeled in the same assumptive and clairovoyant power you did when you assumed he would build the wall himself. My bad, but yours much worse!

Covered that one too.

You on the other hand tried to poopoo something you have no education of...

Me no-no poo-poo...me show other side of coin and you no likey...

jimHJJ(...ain't life a b!tch...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...to deal with the abstract and go beyond the bleedin' obvious would be comical if it weren't so painful.

Ah, so you have to actually back up what you say with proof. Hard for ya huh old doggy. Can't make stuff up and get away with it. To bad.

Sorry, I bunched up all of your "science" refs, but I thought I'd make it a bit easier for you to follow along...Based on my interpretation of HAVICs post and as exemplified by the later diagrams, where is the lack of of science and measureable concerns?

The problems that you listed in your second post do not apply to the flush/baffle mounted design. You are putting the cart before the horse in so many ways its pitful. I don't know how you can interpret HAVIC's post to want his speakers IN FRONT of the walls when he states he wants them boxed in a wall.

If he was thinking alcoves, "boxing" or other euphemism for the layout in diagram(.jpeg #2), even YOU have agreed that there would be too many reflective surfaces and that it would be just cause for concern.

In none of your examples did you put the speakers flush/baffle mounted. I was only commenting on your actual designs, not a design with a flush/baffle mounted speaker. So don't try to apply my comments to anything but your designs.

In .jpeg#3, the monolith wall pictured would also be a "no go" due to the tunnel-like area behind it...

If you knew anything about the dispersion pattern of a baffle mounted speaker, you would see just how stupid this comment is. In a baffle/flush mounted design in a monolith wall, there would be no back wave of sound. So the tunnel like area behind the wall is irrelevant. If you use bass management, this concern becomes even more ignorant.

If it is determined that toe-in is required for proper imaging, how does one accomplish THAT in a flush-mount/"baffle" arrangement?

More cart before the horse thinking. The poster hasn't even chosen a screen size. In the absence of that information, how can one even think about coming to this point. Considering that said poster speakers have a excellent of axis response( 30 degrees off axis ±1.5dB 42-10,000 Hz) he might not even have to take this into consideration. More worries without information=waste of time.

If you incorporate any skewing of the loudspeaker's polar axis, one of two things will occur...you will have to allow the cabinet's outside edge to protrude beyond the plane created by the wall, in which case the enitire project's purpose is defeated. If the tilt is done to obviate that possibility, and the inner edge is withdrawn behind the wall's plane, the tweeter's dispersion pattern will most certainly be compromised...so now, in the design stage, some angling of the wall will be required or other structural compromises will have to be devised. Getting less and less simple. Are we thinking some variant on an exponential horn built into the wall? Well that's gotta' have a measureable effect.

For people like you who seperate recycleable goods for a living, curving a wall to accomodate toe in might be pretty difficult. But it is nothing for somebody who has a little construction experience, or one who hires a person with construction experience, this is nothing. Since the poster has NEVER said who was going to build this wall, this is another waste of time thought. More cart before the horse thinking.

And what about the wall itself? If your "baffle" changes the volume(as in cubic feet) or other salient room dimensions, so as to excite standing waves or create other anomolies, doesn't that give one pause? Standing bass-traps anyone?

You seem to have a profound ignorance of the difference between standing waves, and room resonances. First how would a stand alone baffle wall effect the internal space of the room. If there is a space behind it, then it would not stretch from wall to wall in the actual room. It would take up the center portion of the room leaving the sides open. That would not change the overall volume of the room, just put an obsticle in it. Secondly, there would be no standing waves to excite. A trip to school for ya old dog. Standing waves occur when a speakers omnipolar pattern(in the bass) of waves(front wave, rear reflections) spread out and interact with one another in the room. This leads to standing wave issues in small rooms. In a baffle/flush mounted setup there is no omnipolar pattern in the bass region. That would be supressed by the baffle wall, so there would be no standing waves to excite. Only speakers sitting out in a room suffers from standing waves issues, not speakers mounted in a baffle/flush design. This is some more of that conventional thinking trying to deal with custom design issues. Its apples and oranges.
Room resonances occur whether the speakers are out in the room, or baffle/flush mounted. They occur because of the room deminsions. Not the same thing as a standing wave your smartness.

How are any of these concerns not "scientific" enough? Certainly seems to get a bit more complex than your initial response indicates.

They are not scientific because they don't apply to a baffle/flush mounted design. Its just that simple. My intial response was inline with the original question, your responses are WAY out of line of the original question, and Stevie Wonder can see that.

When exactly did I say HE was going to do anything himself...I used the phrase "the hassles of construction". Fairly all-encompassing I think...Are the limitations of your thought process THAT constricted?...Have you ever dealt with contractors? There's more to any construction job than simply the pitfalls of whackin' yer own thumb with a hammer!

For someone in construction designing a stand alone baffle wall, even one with a angle in it to accomodate toe in, is nothing. The guy I work with can do a cinemascope like curved wall, so a wall with a angle ain't a thang. This is no hassle of construction, this is nothing more than the limited thinking of a wanna be smart person trying to figure out something way beyond his scope.

This is a public forum...people other than those involved sometimes read the threads (although participation seems to be running pretty low these days)...I make no assumptions as to the intelligence or ability levels of ANY readers...Unless otherwise indicated(by prior discourse perhaps), I try to cover all bases on a fairly basic level, the old LCD(no, not liquid crystal display) principle. Consequently, when I see something that answers a potentially complex issue with an entirely simplistic response, I react.

Riiight total loser. You were so busy analyzing this guys thinking, that you didn't even answer the question as it was asked. would the false wall effect anything else?

The answers you gave are well beyond the scope of this question since no other design parimeters have been discussed. You are attempting to read much further than the poster question, and that is why your comments seem so stupid and out of scope. The question was simplistic, and so was the answer. Every issue you raise is completely out of ignorance, not intelligence. The poster didn't need your help at all. He even had to remind you to stick with the question.

I have to explain nothing...I chose to use "sonic obstacles" as a catch-all for simplicity's sake...surely being "in the biz" you've heard some of those terms I used in answer to your inquiry...

Right, and I'll use standing waves to denote a room deminsion resonance. In the biz we do not try and demonstrate how we can use words to confuse the hell out of our clients. Slap echo, standing waves, room resonances are common audio language, not some fluff crap that you think up just to make things easier for you. The world doesn't revolve around you, or you lack of education and experience in custom installation, or the terms that go along with it.

Did I say HE did? You mentioned analyzing a movie theater in minutes...my specific experience has involved living space and the commensurate WAF...The latter has more far-reaching ramifications and I think most would agree with that concept...does that answer your question? Since you do have that void in your perceptive abilities, perhaps not.

He didn't say he had a wife. He didn't say he had children, all he asked waswould the false wall effect anything else?. It is obvious that you don't have any experience as it applies to the poster question, or your answer and questions would have been much more applicable to what the poster was asking. The only questions and problems you brought up are based on information that is not given, or not applicable to baffle/flush mounting at all.

If memory serves, YOU were the one who went down this road when you said in post #4:

However you did not address this in respect to PSB speakers which have absolutely no recommendation on placement of their speakers. You name other speaker manufacturers that have placement RECOMMENDATIONS, but nothing specific as you are trying to allude to. A recommendation is very different than a specific placement instruction.

I provided more than a few who most certainly do and while PSB has no specific distances, they provide very general placement guidelines and speaker/speaker/listener distance ratios...and as I recall I touched on them in post #6 and advised HAVIC to give them a re-read...However, HAVICs T65s ARE marketed as towers and they are designed for free-field placement and caveats are stated with regard for wall and corner proximity placement..

Your room is not a free field environment. A free field environment is an environment free of reflections like an anechoic chamber. PSB measures and voices their speakers in this kind of environment, not your room. If I mounted his speakers in a environment where only its front output is measured(a baffle/flush mount) it would measure substantially better than if I placed that speaker out in the room. I would gladly correct a 4-5db boost in the bass that you get from baffle mounting a speaker, to the 5-20db deviation you get in most listening rooms with the speakers mounted in front of the walls. Just because the only thing YOU know how to do is the traditional way of speaker positioning doesn't mean that its the only way to place the speakers. Remember JBL 4311, 4311B, and 4312? Well they were never designed for soffit mounting, but they are found in thousands of recording studios all over the world in that position. Its called adaptability. Some speakers can be adapted, some can't. The poster PSB can easily be adapted to this purpose as there is nothing in their design that is unusual.

.AND they also produce in-wall and in-cabinet models that are equally evironment-specific. In fact, the in-cabinet models have user adjustable "boundary compensation" switches. To most, logic would dictate a very specific product usage...and do try to recall, there are others who do have systems with rearward-firing ports or other design considerations that preclude any other placement schemes. Things just aren't so simple.

A parametric or 1/3 octave eq is much more flexible than boudary compensation cirucuit found in most speakers. The only account for placement IN FRONT of a wall, not in it. A parametric or 1/3 octave eq can provide exact correct for the measured problem of baffle mounting, a boudary compensation circuit cannot. It has preset filters. Once again you are harping on SPECIFIC use, and I have shown that some speakers(the JBL 4311 are a perfect example) can be adapted to baffle.flush mounting with no problem. The poster speakers do not have rearward ports, so this shouldn't even be part of the discussion. Once again you are adding things to the discussion that are not applicable to the posters setup.

Again, I'll refer you to .jpeg #3...see the monolith...see the existing rear perimeter wall...see the space bettween the two...that will change the sonic shape of the room...waybackwhen, before electronic reverberation, recording studios used duct work along with strategically placed speakers and mikes to simulate air and space...without some sort of mechanical dampening, this wall arrangement will have a similar, albeit less pronounced, effect...again not just a lick o'paint and toodles...

The speakers once again would have to have a backwave to be effected by the space. Since baffle/flush mounted speakers do not have one, this is not applicable to baffle/flush mounted designs. In a baffle/flush mounted design, what happens in front of the baffle is the only consideration that has to be taken. Your lack of understanding of baffle/flush mounting a speaker in betraying you at every turn. Did the poster mention any room deminsions? I think not!

We covered this earlier.

We covered all of this before, now can you shut up already???

"Quoth the raven"...sez you...A wise man expects the unexpected, only a fool thinks he has all the answers.

Not much is unexpected from the poster request, only a fool can't see that.

Do I hear the sounds of a Mexican hat dance done to the strains of "La Cucharacha"...And BTW, nice to see you've learned a new word..."monolith"...you still aren't using it quite right, but it sounds like a real impressive humdinger of a word...like "baffle" and THX...

Its pretty sad that you haven't learned squat about basic acoustics, and speaker/room interactions, or this whole debate might be worth something for you in the end.

Covered that one too.

So when do you shut up already???

Me no-no poo-poo...me show other side of coin and you no likey...

jimHJJ(...ain't life a b!tch...)

Its a shame your other side of coin doesn't work with this specific kind of design. So wrong coin jimbob. You do not know what I like or dislike, keep with what you know and it should take you about 3 millisecond to figure that out.