False wall and audio sound

[HAVIC]

I'm thinking about how a false wall would effect the audio sound?

Reason I'm thinking about a false wall is with my tower speakers 20" deep and wanting a front projector, i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall.

I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases. If that is true would a false wall 2-3 feet deep have the same effect. would the false wall effect anything else?

Thanks
Greg

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I'm thinking about how a false wall would effect the audio sound?

Reason I'm thinking about a false wall is with my tower speakers 20" deep and wanting a front projector, i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall.

I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases. If that is true would a false wall 2-3 feet deep have the same effect. would the false wall effect anything else?

Thanks
Greg

If you are speaking of a baffle wall, that will increase bass tremedously, and get rid of some modes and nodes in the room. THX actually recommends this for THX certified rooms. I would not recommend boxing the speakers, that would create resonances that are undesireable. If you build a wall with speaker cutouts for the left, center, and right speakers with acoustical foam surrounding the speakers, you will get pretty good sound.

[Resident Loser]

...quite as simple or clear cut a some would make it seem...

Pardon my questions, as I'm just trying to understand your intent.

Are you considering actually changing the room's perimeter so the speakers will be "inset" into the resulting alcoves?

Probably not a good idea IMO. First, your loudspeakers have been designed to work best within specific placement parameters as dictated by the manufacturer...this includes(but is not limited to) distance from side walls, rear walls, other large objects and even themselves. Gross deviation from these will likely provide less-than-satisfactory results...in fact while some nodes or resonances may be attenuated, other, even more obvious and troublesome in nature, may be created. Changing the room's shape or dimensions without careful attention to the final dimensions, may produce "even multiples" which can cause standing waves and other artifacts. Tweeter dispersion characteristics may be affected and your ability to "toe-in/toe-out" for the best overall soundstage may be comprimised.

Are you planning simply a monolith wall which would result in an open area in the space behind it and the room's existing perimeter wall?

Something like this can also result in less than optimum results due to the sound corridor created.

In either case, the last thing you want to do is go through the hassles of construction in the name of aesthetics and/or room decor, only to wind up needing further room treatments such as free-standing bass traps and the like.

Unfortunately, those issues must sometimes take a back seat when dealing with quality audio reproduction... in the final analysis, you may simply be better off with the loudspeakers positioned "proud" in respect to that of the projection screen.

jimHJJ(...FWIW, just my two cents...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Installing baffle walls is a common practice in THX certified rooms. I have done at least three installations using baffle walls that I can remember(I am sure there is more), and none of the problems that the individual above me listed ever showed up. While it must be carefully designed, it is doable. Toe in is accomodated by using a laser alignment tool during installation, and backwall reflections can be reduced or eliminated by acoustical foam. The process works much like in wall speakers. I have used THX certified speakers, and some studio monitors. Keep in mind that quite a few studio have soffit or baffle mounted speakers as part of their main monitoring systems.

Personally I know of no consumer speaker manufacturer who states plainly how far from the walls to place their speakers, except Bose. I know of no speaker company that designs consumer speakers with certain distances built into their specs.

[HAVIC]

Are you planning simply a monolith wall which would result in an open area in the space behind it and the room's existing perimeter wall?

Resident loser the above is what I was thinking of.

However after sir terrance statements it seems like it can be done but with careful planning. Thanks for that info sir terrance. If I go with a front projector I will research more into it. Right now my tv is doing the job, but I like the front projector for the future. A few of my friends have them and I like what they can do.

Later

[Resident Loser]

...you think this to be a good idea? I mean, let's talk generalities here. Are you of the opinion that any speaker will benefit from this scheme?

I've seen VOT-type enclosures recessed into walls in theaters, but they are usually horn-loaded enclosures or custom work. Horn's dispersion patterns are pretty much pre-ordained by the exponential dimensions of the drivers mouth...even acoustic lenses reshape the drivers output to balance the on/off-axis response, so that's not a problem...Custom work may be of an infinite baffle design. Is that what you propose? Turning a free-standing enclosure into something else entirely? Surround it with foam panels, egg-crates or shag carpeting and you still have problems. Do you suggest we take loudspeakers with rearward firing tweeters or bass ports and eliminate those design features entirely? Howzabout mfrs. who stress placing their products along the "long" wall of the listening area. What about systems that use odd-type drivers like Walsh's? Or planars? Electrostatics? Or any other design that relies on a free-standing, open environment.

I see no baffles in any of the THX placement guidelines. But then again, I ain't in the biz and actually could care less about laser-totin' mechanical lizards. Soffits and baffles...repeat after me: designed-for...designed-for...You can get THX certified LCR units...which happen to be designed for their purpose...and that seems to be dead against the front wall...and there are still some rules-of-thumb. The Snell's, the Atlantic Technology units, the Klipsh, they are all designed for their purpose, and it seems they tend to have compensatory circuits to aid in placement near walls and or large objects...unfortunately our poster's PSB units do not...in fact he may want to check out the owners manual for his unit's and pay close attention to, maybe even read between the lines, re: Section lll, Speaker placement in relation to room boundaries, You(the owner/listener) in relation to the loudspeakers and You(ditto)in relation to the room.

While his particular mfr. does not gve measuring-tape distances, per se, there are many who do...Snell for one, B&W, Boston Acoustics, Sonus Faber, Martin Logan, Nola, Vienna Acoustics and even companies like Polk and Spendor who don't give specific dimensions, do include angles for the sweet-spot. It doesn't take a rocket-scientist to figure out distances of an equilateral triangle and pick up on the caveat that room boundaries profoundly affect the sound produced. We're not even addressing surround speakers, they seem to have very specific placement guidelines and in most cases, numbers(+/- wiggle room) ARE stated. Then of course, you have the mfrs. who rely on non-verbal iconography to get their point across.

Laser alignment tool? Do your loudspeakers "beam" to the point that such a device is any more precise than a rough guesstimate based on distance? The sound produced by good tweeters doesn't travel in a straight line. If the polar dispersion paterns are supposed to be X degrees, if we place the enclosure so the front baffle is flush with the "wall" provided for the projection screen, isn't that going to affect the sound? Early reflections and so on, acoustic foam notwithstanding. Even more so with toe-in. And don't forget, the poster wants everything to look uniform in a given plane; it's his whole raison d'etre.

jimHJJ(...and tomorrow is yet another day...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...you think this to be a good idea? I mean, let's talk generalities here. Are you of the opinion that any speaker will benefit from this scheme?

Any acoustic suspension, or ported speaker with the port on the front can be used in a baffle wall. Ribbon, Ribbon panel, Electrostatics and other exotic speakers, probably not.

I've seen VOT-type enclosures recessed into walls in theaters, but they are usually horn-loaded enclosures or custom work. Horn's dispersion patterns are pretty much pre-ordained by the exponential dimensions of the drivers mouth...even acoustic lenses reshape the drivers output to balance the on/off-axis response, so that's not a problem...Custom work may be of an infinite baffle design. Is that what you propose? Turning a free-standing enclosure into something else entirely? Surround it with foam panels, egg-crates or shag carpeting and you still have problems. Do you suggest we take loudspeakers with rearward firing tweeters or bass ports and eliminate those design features entirely? Howzabout mfrs. who stress placing their products along the "long" wall of the listening area. What about systems that use odd-type drivers like Walsh's? Or planars? Electrostatics? Or any other design that relies on a free-standing, open environment.

If this was a serious question, I would answer it. As it stands now, its not worth answering. Perhaps you could re-write a more intelligent question I can respond to.

I see no baffles in any of the THX placement guidelines. But then again, I ain't in the biz and actually could care less about laser-totin' mechanical lizards. Soffits and baffles...repeat after me: designed-for...designed-for...You can get THX certified LCR units...which happen to be designed for their purpose...and that seems to be dead against the front wall...and there are still some rules-of-thumb. The Snell's, the Atlantic Technology units, the Klipsh, they are all designed for their purpose, and it seems they tend to have compensatory circuits to aid in placement near walls and or large objects...unfortunately our poster's PSB units do not...in fact he may want to check out the owners manual for his unit's and pay close attention to, maybe even read between the lines, re: Section lll, Speaker placement in relation to room boundaries, You(the owner/listener) in relation to the loudspeakers and You(ditto)in relation to the room.

I never said look in the THX placement guidlines did I? I am referring to THX certified ROOMS, not speaker positioning. I think you are stuck in the old school, baffles have been used on a great deal of custom theater designs. They are used in studios, THX and HPS theaters, and in hometheater installs if the customer want to place the speakers behind the screen. The speakers do not have to be THX certified to be placed behind a screen. You can choose to use a baffle, or a shadow box in mounting speakers behind a screen.

I have used klipsch speakers, M&K, JBL, older Snell, Tannoys, and PMC speakers behind a screen and mounted to a baffle wall.

While his particular mfr. does not gve measuring-tape distances, per se, there are many who do...Snell for one, B&W, Boston Acoustics, Sonus Faber, Martin Logan, Nola, Vienna Acoustics and even companies like Polk and Spendor who don't give specific dimensions, do include angles for the sweet-spot. It doesn't take a rocket-scientist to figure out distances of an equilateral triangle and pick up on the caveat that room boundaries profoundly affect the sound produced. We're not even addressing surround speakers, they seem to have very specific placement guidelines and in most cases, numbers(+/- wiggle room) ARE stated. Then of course, you have the mfrs. who rely on non-verbal iconography to get their point across.

Just because a speaker is mounted in a baffle doesn't mean it cannot be aimed at the primary listening position. Its called pre-planning, and theater design. Have you heard of such concepts?

Logic would dictate that not all speaker designs can be mounted in a baffle. I wouldn't and don't recommend exotic speakers in hometheater setups I install.

Laser alignment tool? Do your loudspeakers "beam" to the point that such a device is any more precise than a rough guesstimate based on distance? The sound produced by good tweeters doesn't travel in a straight line. If the polar dispersion paterns are supposed to be X degrees, if we place the enclosure so the front baffle is flush with the "wall" provided for the projection screen, isn't that going to affect the sound? Early reflections and so on, acoustic foam notwithstanding. Even more so with toe-in. And don't forget, the poster wants everything to look uniform in a given plane; it's his whole raison d'etre.

jimHJJ(...and tomorrow is yet another day...)

Ummm... you don't use laser alignment tools for calculating beam patterns. You use it to accurately alignment a speakers center axis to a particular point in space(preferably so both speakers center axis intersect just behind the head). This is pretty difficult to do by eye accurately.

http://www.audiorevolution.com/equip/sas/index.html

As for the rest of your question, the answer is theater design. I know this is a really new concept for you, but it is done everyday somewhere. Toe in, early reflections can all be compensated for, or eliminated. You have to carefully plan how you want everything to be positioned, and how it will look in the end.

I know you like the old tried and try way of doing things. That takes no brains or imagination to do. Hometheater can be taken from simplicity, to ultra complex. All it require is planning, planning, and more planning. Hometheater that use baffles walls with speakers recessed is not new. You will have some bass boost, but it is VERY easily tamed with a 1/3 octave eq. If a person wants to build a baffle wall to recess their speakers, they are just taking hometheater serveral steps up from the norm. Every issue you raised is easily dealt with if you understand what you are doing. When the gentlemen desides he wants to do this, I am sure he will find somebody competent to help him out.

I prefer to tackle tough hometheater issues and not sit on my butt and say it cannot be done.

All of these theater use baffle walls so the speakers can be placed behind the screen.

http://www.tktheaters.com/gallery/

This might give you an idea of how it is done properly

http://www.subcentral.ch/images/hist...l75percent.jpg

http://www.subcentral.ch/images/hist...ted_screen.jpg

Finished product

http://www.subcentral.ch/images/hist..._microperf.jpg

[Resident Loser]

Any acoustic suspension, or ported speaker with the port on the front can be used in a baffle wall. Ribbon, Ribbon panel, Electrostatics and other exotic speakers, probably not.

And yet earlier:

If you are speaking of a baffle wall, that will increase bass tremedously, and get rid of some modes and nodes in the room. THX actually recommends this for THX certified rooms. I would not recommend boxing the speakers, that would create resonances that are undesireable. If you build a wall with speaker cutouts for the left, center, and right speakers with acoustical foam surrounding the speakers, you will get pretty good sound.

Well, at least we now have a bit of specificity...your earlier response was shall we say a. er...vague, to the point of being downright misleading.

Also, That word "any"..."any"one reading your initial response replete with "THX" and "baffle walls"(love that jargon!) might actually come away from the encounter thinking, hey this guy says I can do it and it's no big deal. And what about "any" speaker enclosures whose front baffle design and cabinetry are used to minimize edge diffraction? Are we now going to defeat the designers purpose and simply surround the niche, alcove, hole, with wall treatment?...can it be done? Sure, maybe but, do try to keep your suggestions within the context of the posters plight...he's looking for a solution that will appease his sensibilites. Also, please...a wall is a wall is a wall is a wall...avoid the jargonistic "baffle" cr@p unless your intent is to, well... baffle!

If this was a serious question, I would answer it. As it stands now, its not worth answering. Perhaps you could re-write a more intelligent question I can respond to.

Well, if you could get out of your soundbite mentality and take in the paragraph as a whole, perhaps you could come up with some sort, any sort of response...after all I'm simply "parroting" your earlier suggestions...Oh, how quickly they forget! And it does seem as though something got through, particularly in light of of your new-found specificity...as in your first quote above.

I never said look in the THX placement guidlines did I? I am referring to THX certified ROOMS, not speaker positioning. I think you are stuck in the old school, baffles have been used on a great deal of custom theater designs. They are used in studios, THX and HPS theaters, and in hometheater installs if the customer want to place the speakers behind the screen. The speakers do not have to be THX certified to be placed behind a screen. You can choose to use a baffle, or a shadow box in mounting speakers behind a screen.

Infinite baffles? As old as hi-fi and maybe older, no argument...HOWEVER the drivers(mostly raw)and their specs( natural roll-off, compliance, etc.) are taken into account...Or do you refer to "baffles" used to break up room nodes...or is it apples and oranges?

Then we have "I am referring to THX certified ROOMS" and in the same breath "The speakers do not have to be THX certified". Are you trying to confuse or are you simply confused? In order to get the little "Certified HT" plaque from THX, dontcha' hafta' use certified gear? Or is it simply dependent on how much you pay your contractor?

Yeah, you can certainly buy acoustically "transparent" screens AND you can get THX cert. loudspeakers, again with compensatory circuitry, specifically for this purpose...Once again, you can put your enclosures or drivers in any configuration you chose, but they need to be either designed for the purpose or mechanically/electronically manipulated to compensate for their environment. At the risk of repeating myself, our poster HAS some gear and has a question...we aren't back at the drawing board to lay out a budget, etc.

I have used klipsch speakers, M&K, JBL, older Snell, Tannoys, and PMC speakers behind a screen and mounted to a baffle wall.

Mounted to or flush with? Were they intended for the purpose? Were our posters PSBs?

Just because a speaker is mounted in a baffle doesn't mean it cannot be aimed at the primary listening position. Its called pre-planning, and theater design. Have you heard of such concepts?

Again, the poster is looking for his speakers and his screen to lie in the same plane...yes, things can be done BUT what you suggest is irrelevant to the subject at hand, i.e. the poster's inquiry.

Logic would dictate that not all speaker designs can be mounted in a baffle. I wouldn't and don't recommend exotic speakers in hometheater setups I install.

Not being certain where on a scale of one to ten on the "exotique" meter the PSBs are, I kinda' think the "baffle concept" would not be an option.

Ummm... you don't use laser alignment tools for calculating beam patterns. You use it to accurately alignment a speakers center axis to a particular point in space(preferably so both speakers center axis intersect just behind the head). This is pretty difficult to do by eye accurately.

So I'd guess were no longer dealing in the realm of THX certification(which, as I recall, requires a minimal dB difference between ANY two spots in the soundfield)and are simply speaking of approximating the "sweet spot"...this is only difficult to do if you've never had experience with design or construction...I rely on my ability to do so, must be the artist in me.

As for your links...well, somehow I don't think we are dealing with the expenditure level required as indicated by the HTs they represent...I have the feeling it's probably a tad lower in our poster's case...getting into the fruit salad as usual?

The behind-the-screen baffle wall...geez I'm gettin tired of sayin' it but...say it with me now...designed for, designed for, designed for...The poster's PSBs, not so much...

Re: the remainder of your attempts at insult and other sundry prattle...the poster's needs are relatively simple, the solution is not quite so, there are no generalties that apply and I have merely attempted to point that significant fact out...sorry if it bursts your over-inflated ballon.

When the gentlemen desides he wants to do this, I am sure he will find somebody competent to help him out.

Which begs the question, why is he HERE? and a second one which I will spare you, given your already somewhat bruised ego.

And of course we never really did touch on this issue:

Personally I know of no consumer speaker manufacturer who states plainly how far from the walls to place their speakers, except Bose. I know of no speaker company that designs consumer speakers with certain distances built into their specs.

jimHJJ(...and much like "Niagra", I sorta' kinda' knew we wouldn't...)

[Resident Loser]

I prefer to tackle tough hometheater issues and not sit on my butt and say it cannot be done.

You really do have a reading comprehension problem, eh?

After posting my caveats, I said: In either case, the last thing you want to do is go through the hassles of construction in the name of aesthetics and/or room decor, only to wind up needing further room treatments such as free-standing bass traps and the like.

Given both perspectives, it's up to HAVIC to decide his course of action.

"...tough hometheater issues..."

An oxymoron if I ever saw one...

jimHJJ(...now pardon me, I hafta' figure out the most expeditious method of moving thirty-six workstations and their required support utilities by 10/7...without service interruption...it's called planning...)

[Smokey]

Boy, does it take 49 responses and twenty million quotes and unquotes to answer a simple question as "how does a false wall would effect the audio sound"?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Boy, does it take 49 responses and twenty million quotes and unquotes to answer a simple question as "how does a false wall would effect the audio sound"?

My point exactly!

[This Guy]

i dont understand how some of you people get so upset at one another on an internet forum. You dont know the person and never will, so there's no need to argue. Just save some time and answer the guys question and end it.

[Resident Loser]

Boy, does it take 49 responses and twenty million quotes and unquotes to answer a simple question as "how does a false wall would effect the audio sound"?

...we are well beyond "answering a question"...It's like this...good ol' Terrence the Interminable tells the poster, "...sure, punch a couple of holes in the wall, pop in the speakers, and you're good to go...".

I disagree, and stated my position as to why. TtT simply has a problem with that...how dare anyone question his "expurtise"...I purport to be no "exspurt" and my experience(regardless of TtTs opinion) tells me the project isn't a simple one with simple solutions...in fact it could prove to be more trouble than it's worth...simply providing an alternate POV...

jimHJJ(...quite simple really...)

[gonefishin]

*bump*

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...we are well beyond "answering a question"...It's like this...good ol' Terrence the Interminable tells the poster, "...sure, punch a couple of holes in the wall, pop in the speakers, and you're good to go...".

And this was all I said? Bull old dude This is what I said

If you are speaking of a baffle wall, that will increase bass tremedously, and get rid of some modes and nodes in the room.(that would be standing waves) THX actually recommends this for THX certified rooms. I would not recommend boxing the speakers, that would create resonances that are undesireable. If you build a wall with speaker cutouts for the left, center, and right speakers with acoustical foam surrounding the speakers, you will get pretty good sound.

and this

Installing baffle walls is a common practice in THX certified rooms. I have done at least three installations using baffle walls that I can remember(I am sure there is more), and none of the problems that the individual above me listed ever showed up. While it must be carefully designed, it is doable

Did you forget the increase bass tremedously part? Or how about the carefully designed part? I mentioned the only acoustical issue you get from this mounting, and gave him a simple guidline to work with in terms of mounting. What he didn't ask for was specific construction answers, acoustical issues unrelated to this kind of install, no mention of the need for toe in, and all the other crap you brought to the table. Half the crap you mentioned there wasn't enough information to even address.

I disagree, and stated my position as to why. TtT simply has a problem with that...how dare anyone question his "expurtise"...I purport to be no "exspurt" and my experience(regardless of TtTs opinion) tells me the project isn't a simple one with simple solutions...in fact it could prove to be more trouble than it's worth...simply providing an alternate POV...

jimHJJ(...quite simple really...)

Your position was a position of complete ignorance of this kind of installation. The kinds of acoustical issues you brought up are not issues for this kind of install. If you have ANY experience doing this kind of install, the kinds of issues you raise would be in line with this kind of setup. The rather silly thing that makes me laugh is that you are arguing against something that has been done over and over again. You need to check out more magazines that feature custom installed hometheaters. Several things that you seem to forget constantly is;

He never asked any constructions questions.
He never stated a room size
He never stated a screen size
He didn't say HE would build it
He never mentioned a budget
He never said he was married or had children, a dog, or a horse.
He never asked was the easy or hard to do.

In spite of this, you still brought some of these up with absolutely no information. You call that a POV, or just fishing for a problem in a situation you don't understand. You know, just throw crap out there and see what sticks. Now had you have asked about vibration control, differences between flush mount in a cutout hole and mounting the speakers to the frame, these are issue related to this kind of setup. Not standing waves, not the lack of rearward waves effect the speakers sound, not creating more acoustical problems(because it doesn't) or any of the other non flush/baffle mounted issues you raised. Those issues you raised are problems with in room speakers, not baffle/flush mounting. You may call it a POV, I call it complete ignorance.

It is completely disingenuous of you to come here and represent yourself as the saviour of HVAIC from misinformation. Your created more misinformation and dispelled nothing. You didn't even address my responses to your so called POV

[Resident Loser]

...what you really said was:

If you are speaking of a baffle wall, that will increase bass tremedously, and get rid of some modes and nodes in the room. THX actually recommends this for THX certified rooms. I would not recommend boxing the speakers, that would create resonances that are undesireable. If you build a wall with speaker cutouts for the left, center, and right speakers with acoustical foam surrounding the speakers, you will get pretty good sound.

...and you pretty much would have left it that way if I hadn't put that bug up your @$$...perhaps if you had the forethought to include...

While it must be carefully designed, it is doable

in your initial response, I might have been inclined to let you slide...probably not, but maybe...and anyway, how do you know he wasn't ready to whip out the ol' Sawzall and start on this project simply because you intimated it was a piece of cake and would probably cure cancer and solve world hunger to boot?

Do make a note for future reference YOUR use of the word "if"...conjecture on your part is OK, however if I choose to raise some doubt it is verboten, eh?

I included everything I did simply to counter your overly simplistic answer, sorry you no likey!

And again, for the gazillionth time...

The rather silly thing that makes me laugh is that you are arguing against something that has been done over and over again.

When what I actually said was:

Once again, you can put your enclosures or drivers in any configuration you chose, but they need to be either designed for the purpose or mechanically/electronically manipulated to compensate for their environment.

Given the choice(and since they make 'em for multiple environments) why would one want to use a speaker optimized for free-field use, when a flusnh-mount or cabinet-mount model is available?...as in the case of PSB. It'll only require that much more tweaking...

Why use the Genelecs which are near field radiators and which should be toed-in, as per spec, completely out of context?

Why put your boots in the oven and expect them to be seen as biscuits?

The answer is simple...HT is simply a medium for laser-totin' mechanical lizards...accuracy simply isn't of paramount concern...it's all nothing but one-upsmanship and old fashioned popcorn makers...and ooh's and aah's...

You didn't even address my responses to your so called POV

There are around 55 posts, roughly half of which are mine...if you don't have all the answers you need, the problem isn't mine...

jimHJJ(...and it really p!$$es you off...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...what you really said was:



...and you pretty much would have left it that way if I hadn't put that bug up your @$$...perhaps if you had the forethought to include... in your initial response, I might have been inclined to let you slide...probably not, but maybe...and anyway, how do you know he wasn't ready to whip out the ol' Sawzall and start on this project simply because you intimated it was a piece of cake and would probably cure cancer and solve world hunger to boot?

Listen, this is not about you no matter how much you attempt to make it. It is about the posters question, something you failed to answer even after 27 or so responses. Your responses didn't even respond to the basic question that was asked {b}would the false wall effect anything else?[/b]. Your responses brought up issues related speakers out in the room, not flush/baffle mounted. Because of this, it was of no help at all. Of course, this wasn't about the question the poster asked was it?

Do make a note for future reference YOUR use of the word "if"...conjecture on your part is OK, however if I choose to raise some doubt it is verboten, eh?

Do make note of the mistletoe located conviently on my coattails. In the future when raise some doubt, make sure its appropriate to the design that discussed. You were totally off the mark on this one.

I included everything I did simply to counter your overly simplistic answer, sorry you no likey!

The question was simple, the answer was simple. Only an idiot thinks he needs to rewrite the constitution just to answer the question. You included everything you did, because you are not familar with this particular kind of installation. So what you did was throw everything including the kitchen sink,to hide your ignorance(which it did not) and make a feeble attempt to counter my response. Not very effective, and not particularly helpful to the original poster. You are welcomed to challenge anything I say at any time.

And again, for the gazillionth time...



When what I actually said was:

You should have stop right there. The rest of your responses were not helpful,.

Given the choice(and since they make 'em for multiple environments) why would one want to use a speaker optimized for free-field use, when a flusnh-mount or cabinet-mount model is available?...as in the case of PSB. It'll only require that much more tweaking...

How do you know it requires more tweaking, have you tried it? Do you actually have any hands on experience, or are you just guessing? You use the Genelecs because they work, and they are better than what is being marketed as in wall or flush mounted. PSB are optimized in a reflection free anechoic chamber, not a room, not in your room, and not in the posters room. PSB does not have any idea where their speaker is going to be installed.

Why use the Genelecs which are near field radiators and which should be toed-in, as per spec, completely out of context?

They require toe in when the installation requires it. They do not ALWAYS require toe in. Your still thinking inside the box. We use them because they work exceptionally well in this kind of design. Toe in is a recommendation, not a specification must.

Why put your boots in the oven and expect them to be seen as biscuits?

I guess for the same reason why you think a standing wave is a room resonance.

The answer is simple...HT is simply a medium for laser-totin' mechanical lizards...accuracy simply isn't of paramount concern...it's all nothing but one-upsmanship and old fashioned popcorn makers...and ooh's and aah's...

All of this is based on your personal experience? Or are you just complaining that the industry has grown past your knowledge. Have you ever heard any custom installed theaters. Is your opinion educated, or just some more ranting and raving because you just don't get it?

There are around 55 posts, roughly half of which are mine...if you don't have all the answers you need, the problem isn't mine...

jimHJJ(...and it really p!$$es you off...)

You call those answers? It was more like crap on the wall that is not even appropriate for this kind of installation. You don't know what pisses me off. I certainly am not bothered by the musing of an old man well past his time, with no current information on current audio technology. Remeber the question waswould the false wall effect anything else?
. You offered nothing to answer that question nor to this discussion

[hermanv]

At least we taught that HAVIC guy never to show his face around here again!

[Resident Loser]

...for HAVIC...You have couple of roads to take...

The simplest, since you have yet to purchase a projector/screen, would be to purchase a perforated screen. If you really like your PSBs, you can position them where they will sound best and hang the screen between and forward of them...for a sort of "psuedo-wall" sense of continuity, just flank it with acoustically-transparent scrim and voila! HT that looks aesthetically pleasing...sorta' like a retro movie theatre...little muss, little fuss...and no design/construction to contend with or demolition should the whole idea not seem quite the ticket after-the-fact.

If you really long for THX-lite and the infinite baffle concept AND yet want musical accuracy in addition to the crash and boom of your laser-totin' mechanical lizards, I would opt for one of the many in-wall units(LCRs) designed and optimized for that purpose plus an easily moved sub(yes Virginia, standing waves can still be a problem) for LFEs...Do keep in mind that while in-wall units are no longer simply a baflle with raw drivers and are closed, self-contained units, the rigidity of the wall in which they are to be placed is still quite important, as is the insulation contained therein to help deaden any structure-borne rattles, grunts or groans. There is even one manufacturer who produces what they call AcoustaCell wall inserts. These units seem to be specifically for their units, but there are probably others available...here's a link:

http://www.wildwestelectronics.net/spact6syform.html

In regard to simply popping any old thing into a wall, if you take a look at some of the links I provided along this long and bumpy road of a post, yes, an infinite baflle/baffle wall/Bafflette is a requirement for THX certification of commercial venues...however it's structure is somewhat complicated and even in it's more simplified form, requires the use of MDF in lieu of wallboard and studs. In such an application the plans MUST be THX approved and conform stringently to their parameters including use of approved speakers, which tend to look like industrial vacuums painted in lampblack...which, since they are in a wall, is no biggie. There also seems to be very specific room size/screen size/speaker placement guidelines to afford the best(as per THX requirements) performance.

jimHJJ(...round and round she goes...)

[E-Stat]

I'm thinking about how a false wall would effect the audio sound?
Thanks
Greg

Guys, do we have any more comments to add to Greg's question?

rw

[GMichael]

Guys, do we have any more comments to add to Greg's question?

rw

I think it's a great idea. If the false wall is made of that thin mesh-like material that sounds goes right through, won't this work? Are there problems with this?

[Resident Loser]

Guys, do we have any more comments to add to Greg's question?

rw

...are we to surmise that the seemingly gentle question you have posed is simply preparation for the thread to be locked?

Other than the fact that HAVICs question had been addressed within the first few posts, do you feel the subsequent issues that have been raised are somehow irrelevant? That they will benefit no one else but the initial poster? I don't think that to be the case. Has anyone learned anything? Have a few been prompted to research the subject matter? Hopefully so.

Even though I have my suspicions as to why, personally I'm quite saddened by the lack of general participation in the thread and/or any meaningful discussion of those issues even on the most elemental level...like I said, it ain't rocket science, no magic, no voodoo...just some basic familiarity with a few facets of the subject matter and the application of a little common sense...

jimHJJ(...then again, that's just me...)

[GMichael]

...are we to surmise that the seemingly gentle question you have posed is simply preparation for the thread to be locked?

Other than the fact that HAVICs question had been addressed within the first few posts, do you feel the subsequent issues that have been raised are somehow irrelevant? That they will benefit no one else but the initial poster? I don't think that to be the case. Has anyone learned anything? Have a few been prompted to research the subject matter? Hopefully so.

Even though I have my suspicions as to why, personally I'm quite saddened by the lack of general participation in the thread and/or any meaningful discussion of those issues even on the most elemental level...like I said, it ain't rocket science, no magic, no voodoo...just some basic familiarity with a few facets of the subject matter and the application of a little common sense...

jimHJJ(...then again, that's just me...)

I've tried to look into it. But mostly there was a lot of pure anger in this thread. I wasn't sure who was right in what way. It was really very hard for me to come to a conclusion.

Can you fill us in on the things we would need to know? Are there problems with his idea?
Please talk slow, so even I can follow.

[Resident Loser]

...there was a lot of pure anger in this thread...

...my suggestion would be to ignore the ageist and otherwise inflammatory comments and look to the info provided...

Can you fill us in on the things we would need to know? Are there problems with his idea?
Please talk slow, so even I can follow.

I stand by what I have already posted re:alteration of room size and equipment choices...links have been provided for most of what anyone REALLY needs to know...there are speakers more suited to certain situations, otherwise why would the manufacturers build them? It's examples such as that, where common sense wins hands-down over any "specialized" knowledge...Think this through with me, doesn't it simply make more sense to use "something" designed for a specific application...at least you have some sort of "base" to work from rather than trying to overcome inherent design features/flaws? Square peg, round hole/silk purse, sow's ear...that sort of thing.

If you have any specific questions, I'll be happy to attempt address them even though I'm only a part-time musician/semi-serious recordist/audio enthusiast and purport to be no "exspurt" in anything in particular and simply quite inquisitive about nearly everything.

You can Google nearly everything and I strongly encourage this practice, just be forewarned to investgate a cross-section of sites. There will be a certain percentage of the content that will be wrong or misleading...there will also be some inherent facts that will usually show up in all or many of them...odds are this category will contain more of the truth. In fact you can do "false wall" and this thread(along with another at another site) will pop-up within the first few choices. Curious that there is very little re: the subject as it relates to audio...I'd guess there isn't a big call for such among the average HT buff...

jimHJJ(...I wonder why...)

[GMichael]

...my suggestion would be to ignore the ageist and otherwise inflammatory comments and look to the info provided...



I stand by what I have already posted re:alteration of room size and equipment choices...links have been provided for most of what anyone REALLY needs to know...there are speakers more suited to certain situations, otherwise why would the manufacturers build them? It's examples such as that, where common sense wins hands-down over any "specialized" knowledge...Think this through with me, doesn't it simply make more sense to use "something" designed for a specific application...at least you have some sort of "base" to work from rather than trying to overcome inherent design features/flaws? Square peg, round hole/silk purse, sow's ear...that sort of thing.

If you have any specific questions, I'll be happy to attempt address them even though I'm only a part-time musician/semi-serious recordist/audio enthusiast and purport to be no "exspurt" in anything in particular and simply quite inquisitive about nearly everything.

You can Google nearly everything and I strongly encourage this practice, just be forewarned to investgate a cross-section of sites. There will be a certain percentage of the content that will be wrong or misleading...there will also be some inherent facts that will usually show up in all or many of them...odds are this category will contain more of the truth. In fact you can do "false wall" and this thread(along with another at another site) will pop-up within the first few choices. Curious that there is very little re: the subject as it relates to audio...I'd guess there isn't a big call for such among the average HT buff...

jimHJJ(...I wonder why...)

Google is a constant companion in my line of work. You can find almost anything. I will, and have checked there also.

Will the mesh false wall change the sound much? Can it be adjusted for? Are different speakers & amps better than others for this?