Busted, another nail in the coffin for 'high-end' audio..

[Ajani]

Guys remember that the HTR review was out before the scandal broke on audioholics... When the story broke, the HTR reviewer got ripped a new one in the comments section for doing an incompetent review... So this is not a case of someone trying to disprove the findings of Audioholics... But a reviewer being embarrassed for doing a bad job...

[Auricauricle]

Two words: "Color palette".

Oooooooh...

[nightflier]

Any other manufacturers who appear to be re-branding and charging a wallop? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Ajani]

Revel Concerta F12:


JBL Northridge E90:


Infinity Beta 50:


All 3 way designs with dual 8 inch woofers and the same driver material used from Twin Woofers to Tweeters...

[audio amateur]

Okay I'm not buying anything from the Harmon group now..

[Ajani]

Okay I'm not buying anything from the Harmon group now..

Not so fast... All 3 products were supposed to be good in their price classes (which aren't that far apart)... and they are supposed to sound different... They just share a lot of design elements and material

[nightflier]

Wasn't JBL once a respected speaker manufacturer?

[Ajani]

Wasn't JBL once a respected speaker manufacturer?

Yes...

[02audionoob]

Does this kill anyone's impression of Revel? or is it just me?

[Ajani]

Does this kill anyone's impression of Revel? or is it just me?

For some persons: yes... for me: no - because I've auditioned them... and also because I don't hate on JBL or Infinity (they are decent value for their prices)...

[Mr Peabody]

I have not liked any JBL speakers I've heard so far. I'd like to hear those Northridge to see if it could change my mind. There's just something about the sound, it's like a frequency band is missing or something. I've only heard a $10k pair of Revel and was very under whelmed. If that was the $10k I have no use for the rest of the line. Infinity in the 80's &
90's was good for each price point. When they moved them to the East coast the company went to hell. It's been a couple years since I've heard any Infinity so not sure if they've tried to bring the line back. JBL at one time had a good piece of the Pro market. I can't say how they do now I haven't been in that in a long long time. I feel Harmon's neglect of the Infinity line is what gave Polk such a leg up in that mass market store crowd. It was a big mistake to stop the Studio Monitor line. As bad as I disliked the stuff, you demo a nice RS series then crank the SM and guess what went out the door 90% of the time. The SM was a money maker.

[IBSTORMIN]

I feel Harmon's neglect of the Infinity line is what gave Polk such a leg up in that mass market store crowd.

It seems like in the last 20 years, Infinity comes out with the new technology and a few years later Polk copied and ran with it with better advertising and better success. You mentioned Infinity in the 90's when they had soft dome tweeters before they came out with the CMMD line. Polk is using soft dome tweeters now with great success. Back in the 90's and early 2000's when I compared Polk and Infinity, the Infinity always sounded cleaner than Polk, even if they were using the same drivers. Infinity always seemed to have better quality sound than Polk. Infinity's latest design was a flat panel oval shaped CMMD woofer/midrange that seems to have bombed. http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/...USA&Country=US
I recently saw that Definitive Technology has a new line with a powered woofer section (something Infinity has been doing for two decades, basically doing the bi-amping for you), with several flat panel oval shaped woofers that look just like what Infinity had. The Def Tech are supposedly highly acclaimed. They look like the 90's Infinity Overture 3 powered towers with the 2 midrange flanking the tweeter in a module at the top and the woofers below with oval drivers instead of round, a mixture of Infinity technologies.
http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speak...7_1594crx.aspx
http://www.definitivetech.com/Produc...d/default.aspx
Seems like Infinity has just lost it's name as people always want something new, not what Dad used to buy. Infinity develops the new technology and someone else copies and makes a success of it. It is sad I didn't sell my Harman stock a few years ago when it peaked over $100!

[02audionoob]

For some persons: yes... for me: no - because I've auditioned them... and also because I don't hate on JBL or Infinity (they are decent value for their prices)...

I see the one boutique hi-fi store in my town carries Revel. Maybe I'll have to drop by and act interested. Hey, there's a recession on...how busy can they be?

[poppachubby]

I have a mint pair of JBL L-110, old school. I absolutely love them to death. These are the cousin of the legendary Century L-100, which still fetch several hundred dollars on the used market. Haven't heard anything recently, nor do I want to. They look like everything else out there, and from what I've heard, sound that way also.

[audio amateur]

Did infinity go to hell before they came out with the Prelude MTS?

I believe these came out in '99 or so. I heard the smaller bookshelves from the series and was quite impressed. I wish I could get my ears on these though

[IBSTORMIN]

Did infinity go to hell before they came out with the Prelude MTS?

I believe these came out in '99 or so. I heard the smaller bookshelves from the series and was quite impressed. I wish I could get my ears on these though

I have the predecessor to the Prelude MTS, The Prelude P-FR and really like them. I would like to try the MTS myself. Infinity usually comes out with a new driver technology and builds a wonderful sounding flagship speaker like the P-FR and MTS. Everything else in their line is then smaller with less drivers and compromises to bring the cost down where normal people can afford them. I am a normal person (up for some debate) and bought the P-FR used as I couldn't afford the $4500 price tag when they were new. I think the CMMD tweeter in the MTS is so crisp it takes the multiple midrange drivers to tame it and make it sound good. I think that is what hurt Infinity because to me their smaller speakers were way too bright. Same I have felt about JBL with their pure titanium tweeters. Just too bright in a two or three driver enclosure.

[kexodusc]

I'm not a big fan of JBL, but those Northridge speakers were "ok"...I'd put them up against similarly priced speakers from the likes of Polk, PSB and B&W. Not my cup of tea...but they aren't terrible and could be bought on sale a lot from what I saw.

Just comment on the similarities between these speakers...I'd bet that Harman isn't re-badging speakers here despite the similarities, though no doubt there's some sharing of technology and synergy there. Those drivers might use the same material, but that doesn't mean anything - you can buy a $15-$20 driver you'd see in a $500-$1000 speaker, and it would look the same as a $40-60 you'd find in a $2000-$3000 speaker...the difference could be in the frame material and design, and especially the motor...I bet those Revels have a thicker, heavier cabinet (my quick google search suggests 12 lbs weight difference) which is better braced and finished, and higher quality crossover components too, though I could be wrong. These would make a far greater difference in sound that the choice of cone material.

[02audionoob]

I wouldn't suspect Harman of a simple re-badge on this. To me, it's just a bit of a loss of cool factor...like when one of the Big 3 auto makers buys a European auto maker.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

For some persons: yes... for me: no - because I've auditioned them... and also because I don't hate on JBL or Infinity (they are decent value for their prices)...

I have to agree with you. I love Revel's speakers. What was your impression of the Concerto speaker?

Having been to the Harmon Groups headquarters quite a few times, it is my impression that their products lines across all of under the umbrella of Harmon share designs and testing facilities, but not internal parts. The Concerto line uses more outsourced parts, while the upper priced models internal parts are made at Harmon.

[IBSTORMIN]

The JBL Northridge is no longer in production but uses a titanium tweeter and poly mid and woofer. It has a front firing port which I have never liked on any speaker. Their ES series still in production sounds better. I compared them when they were both on the market and bought their ES outdoor speakers instead of the Northridge. Probably better bracing and crossovers, maybe an advance driver that looks the same. Not sure. I know they make a pure titamium tweeter and a laminate titanium tweeter that look identical but sound different.
The Infinity Beta uses Ceramic Metal Matrix Diaphrams (C.M.M.D.) throghout. It has a rear-firing port which if you must have one, I prefer rear-firing. I like speakers without woofer ports best because the bass sounds more natural instead of boomy, but they port them for the masses for the impact/thump.
The Revel Concerta uses Organic Ceramic Composite drivers throughout (O.C.C.) and looks just like the CMMD. Maybe they use more exotic materials than the Infinity, maybe not. Heavier so it probably has better bracing and crossovers. Again a rear firing port.

[audio amateur]

Ibstormin, many, many high end speakers use ports. I think you're generalising too much by saying that all ported designs sound boomy. Perhaps you've those you;ve heard you didn't like but to say sealed is better than ported isn't fair.

Speaking of your speakers, I didn't the MTS had a predecessor. Look pretty sweet!

[Ajani]

The JBL Northridge is no longer in production but uses a titanium tweeter and poly mid and woofer. It has a front firing port which I have never liked on any speaker. Their ES series still in production sounds better. I compared them when they were both on the market and bought their ES outdoor speakers instead of the Northridge. Probably better bracing and crossovers, maybe an advance driver that looks the same. Not sure. I know they make a pure titamium tweeter and a laminate titanium tweeter that look identical but sound different.
The Infinity Beta uses Ceramic Metal Matrix Diaphrams (C.M.M.D.) throghout. It has a rear-firing port which if you must have one, I prefer rear-firing. I like speakers without woofer ports best because the bass sounds more natural instead of boomy, but they port them for the masses for the impact/thump.
The Revel Concerta uses Organic Ceramic Composite drivers throughout (O.C.C.) and looks just like the CMMD. Maybe they use more exotic materials than the Infinity, maybe not. Heavier so it probably has better bracing and crossovers. Again a rear firing port.

I probably should have made it clearer that I was saying the speakers used the same material from woofer to tweeter and not that all 3 speakers use the exact same material... the Revel and Infinity drivers are especially similar... Different names though for the material... But despite the similarities, reviews indicate that the 3 models sound different... so there are probably many differences internally... it's just that the Harmon group shares design and parts across their product lines (nothing actually wrong with that)...

[Ajani]

I have to agree with you. I love Revel's speakers. What was your impression of the Concerto speaker?

Having been to the Harmon Groups headquarters quite a few times, it is my impression that their products lines across all of under the umbrella of Harmon share designs and testing facilities, but not internal parts. The Concerto line uses more outsourced parts, while the upper priced models internal parts are made at Harmon.

The Concerta F12 are still my favorite sub $2K speakers.... And depending on what my budget is when I finally upgrade, maybe my next set of Towers (the only issue I've had with them are their size and looks - they really are not subtle looking speakers, meant to blend in with a room)... The traits that won me over were the coherency of the drivers... using one material from woofer to tweeter has resulted in a seamless sound IMO, which is quite refreshing from some of the other brands I've heard where the tweeter sounds different from the mid, which sounds different from the woofer... Also the dynamics, being able to get near full range sound at $1.5K is a very good thing....

I'm actually torn between the F12s at $1.5K and the M22s + Stands at $2.25K... I've auditioned both and liked both... I'm trying to decide whether I'm willing to give up the bass extension of the F12s for the more refined sound of the M22s.... Luckily for me, Revel, Krell and Mark Levinson are a few of the brands available in Jamaica for prices close to their US MSRP (the other stuff generally costs at least 50% more than MSRP)...

Anyway, eventually I'll make up my mind (no rush really as my AKG cans and M-Audio actives are doing the job for now)...

[Ajani]

I have not liked any JBL speakers I've heard so far. I'd like to hear those Northridge to see if it could change my mind. There's just something about the sound, it's like a frequency band is missing or something. I've only heard a $10k pair of Revel and was very under whelmed. If that was the $10k I have no use for the rest of the line. Infinity in the 80's &
90's was good for each price point. When they moved them to the East coast the company went to hell. It's been a couple years since I've heard any Infinity so not sure if they've tried to bring the line back. JBL at one time had a good piece of the Pro market. I can't say how they do now I haven't been in that in a long long time. I feel Harmon's neglect of the Infinity line is what gave Polk such a leg up in that mass market store crowd. It was a big mistake to stop the Studio Monitor line. As bad as I disliked the stuff, you demo a nice RS series then crank the SM and guess what went out the door 90% of the time. The SM was a money maker.

Your experience with Revel left you underwhelmed as did mine with Dynaudio... but what i find intriguing is the number of times I've checked a user forum and seen members trying to decide between Revel and Dynaudio... It seems most persons seem to like both and consider them to sound similar...

[Ajani]

I wouldn't suspect Harman of a simple re-badge on this. To me, it's just a bit of a loss of cool factor...like when one of the Big 3 auto makers buys a European auto maker.

That loss of the Cool Factor is probably why they started Revel in the first place... JBL and Infinity still receive a number of good reviews, but are not highly regarded by most Audiophiles...

I strongly suspect that their presence at Best Buy and Future Shop has a lot to do with their lack of status with audiophiles... Whereas Revel is only available at high end dealers, it has a much easier time being credible with audiophiles...