Busted, another nail in the coffin for 'high-end' audio..

[IBSTORMIN]

Ibstormin, many, many high end speakers use ports. I think you're generalising too much by saying that all ported designs sound boomy. Perhaps you've those you;ve heard you didn't like but to say sealed is better than ported isn't fair.!

Ports are used to add what the drivers cannot produce by themselves, or to add punch. In my opinion, it's a poor compromise. About a year ago I listened to a pair of $9,000 speakers from I think Def Tech and it had a front firing port. Immediately I could hear the sound coming from the port focused on a specific frequency. Ruined a perfectly good speaker IMHO. Mr P mentioned the SM line of Infinity. I never really thought about ported design until I had a pair of SM155 which was a three way with a 15" woofer. The pair sounded much better with the rear-firing port plugged with a wad of speaker stuffing. It flattened out the low end response so all bass notes had the same volume, just like they were originally recorded.

Speaking of your speakers, I didn't know the MTS had a predecessor. Look pretty sweet!

Thanks, I like them but am now also a Maggie man. Depends on the music and my mood which I listen to.

[audio amateur]

It really depends on the drivers, some work a lot better with ports than others. Some, you simply need use in a ported design to get good results. Anyhow, don't dismiss a speaker simply because it is a ported design, you could be missing out on a lot of good stuff.

That's a pretty nice 'office' system you have!

[IBSTORMIN]

It really depends on the drivers, some work a lot better with ports than others. Some, you simply need use in a ported design to get good results. Anyhow, don't dismiss a speaker simply because it is a ported design, you could be missing out on a lot of good stuff.

I don't dismiss anything I haven't heard. I was just mentioning what my experience has been in the past

That's a pretty nice 'office' system you have!

Thanks again. It contains my cast offs from the basement, which I am in the process of changing back from HT to stereo only. The HT things I have in the basement sound better in stereo than the office stuff.

[Mr Peabody]

My Dyn's are front firing, you are, going to have to get over IBstormin.

I also heard some Dali's today with a front firing port. A little 2-way with a cost of about $675.00 a pair which were impressive for the price.

[IBSTORMIN]

My Dyn's are front firing, you are, going to have to get over IBstormin.

You are right, I do. It will be more interesting than I tought. I'll bring my Preludes and M-588 for comparison.

I also heard some Dali's today with a front firing port. A little 2-way with a cost of about $675.00 a pair which were impressive for the price.

Dali was recommended a year ago by an audio store in San Diego I visited that was closing as I arrived. I've still not gotten a chance to listen to them so we will have to go by there when I come out. I have a pair of Infinity RS-3 which is a 2-way bookshelf speaker that once again, I plug the port and they sound much better than with the port open, with or without a sub filling out the bottom.

[Mr Peabody]

Ajani, I heard my first pair of Monitor Audio today. It was a bookshelf speaker I can't remember the model, they were about $1.6k and I believe in the Gold series. First off, this was a bad demo, these guys had expensive speakers like the ones mentioned and up to a Paradigm Signature 8 hooked up to a swticher and on the other side of the switcher a $7.5k McIntosh. Pull their license Despite this the MA's sounded good, they actually had more bass punch than the Paradigm. I don't know what the issue was with the 8's the bass just wasn't there like I'd expect. We told the guy we thought they were out of phase. Huh? And, we wonder why people out here have different views on equipment. You could also tell the MA's had a hot high end. We were sitting 18 to 20 feet away so they didn't seem overly bright but with an extended listen, realistic distance away and proper set up I wonder.

[Ajani]

Ajani, I heard my first pair of Monitor Audio today. It was a bookshelf speaker I can't remember the model, they were about $1.6k and I believe in the Gold series. First off, this was a bad demo, these guys had expensive speakers like the ones mentioned and up to a Paradigm Signature 8 hooked up to a swticher and on the other side of the switcher a $7.5k McIntosh. Pull their license Despite this the MA's sounded good, they actually had more bass punch than the Paradigm. I don't know what the issue was with the 8's the bass just wasn't there like I'd expect. We told the guy we thought they were out of phase. Huh? And, we wonder why people out here have different views on equipment. You could also tell the MA's had a hot high end. We were sitting 18 to 20 feet away so they didn't seem overly bright but with an extended listen, realistic distance away and proper set up I wonder.

The $1.6K Bookshelf is the Gold Series 10.... Careful system matching is a must, as they are bright... The GS20 should sound more balanced due to the additional bass driver (and is my favorite approx $3K Speaker - such a shame I have no local Monitor Audio Dealer )..

I found that at a normal listening distance (about 9 feet), and with an extended audition of about 45 minutes I had no issue with the GS20 being fatiguing... Unlike the B&W CM1, 805S and 703 which I found really fatiguing in about 20 minutes.... (but I've heard people claim the opposite result - so it might be a matter of system synergy)...

Now, I really think I might need to figure out how to give Dynaudio another audition and see if maybe it was just the particular setup that left me so unimpressed...

[RGA]

It's like anything else - there are good and bad sealed designs, good and bad ported - a lot of bad ported loudspeakers but then most speakers are ported so you will come across more bad ones as a result, and good and pad panels and on and on. I was happy to finally hear some outstanding panels and outstanding speakers with multiple stacked woofers with four drivers and one with 5 and a good line array.

Some designs just cost more to do well - horns get a bad rap but most often people judge horns off one or two companies in the $600 price range -(say Klipsch) and judge all horns off that.

[winston]

Ajani@quote
All 3 way designs with dual 8 inch woofers and the same driver material used from Twin Woofers to Tweeters...

my observation was the same" when i was shopping for speakers to set up my HT" the Revel Concerta F12, Infinity Beta 50, Jbl North-ridge E 90, were on closed out at the same local. in my neck of the Hoods, I went back & forth for two days trying to compare the three speakers. the F12s were 950.00 ea the Beta 50s & E 90s, were 350.00 & 300.00 ea. upon my third visit the (the sales man pull me to the side and told me all three is the same designs, same woofer, mid, & tweeter material all assemble in Mexico.

Then he drop the bomb on me!! I walk out with the Beta 50s, beta 360c, & beta 20s all for $645.00 + taxes (no problem since 2006 as yet)

[Ajani]

Ajani@quote
All 3 way designs with dual 8 inch woofers and the same driver material used from Twin Woofers to Tweeters...

my observation was the same" when i was shopping for speakers to set up my HT" the Revel Concerta F12, Infinity Beta 50, Jbl North-ridge E 90, were on closed out at the same local. in my neck of the Hoods, I went back & forth for two days trying to compare the three speakers. the F12s were 950.00 ea the Beta 50s & E 90s, were 350.00 & 300.00 ea. upon my third visit the (the sales man pull me to the side and told me all three is the same designs, same woofer, mid, & tweeter material all assemble in Mexico.

Then he drop the bomb on me!! I walk out with the Beta 50s, beta 360c, & beta 20s all for $645.00 + taxes (no problem since 2006 as yet)

The Beta 50 and F12 at MSRP were a lot closer in price than your dealer's sale... At $350 versus $950, I'd probably opt for the Beta too!!! At Retail, it would likely be a different story...

[E-Stat]

Did infinity go to hell before they came out with the Prelude MTS?

There was a time when Infinity was Arnie Nudell. Not just another product line with which to share parts. The Servo Statik was his first product and anything but just another me-too design:



Nudell moved on to using EMIMs in the early 80s and again, came out with another superlative speaker in the IRS. I vividly remember hearing them at length in 1980.



I don't really understand why Infinity exists as a separate company any more. The similarities between the other Harmon product lines renders them irrelevant. There's JBL at the bottom (with a few oddball expensive horn designs) and Revel at the top.

rw

[Ajani]

I don't really understand why Infinity exists as a separate company any more. The similarities between the other Harmon product lines renders them irrelevant. There's JBL at the bottom (with a few oddball expensive horn designs) and Revel at the top.

rw

I've often asked the same thing... It would make sense if the brand name was still worth a lot, but since it doesn't hold the same status, they probably should have just dissolved the brand and sent any talented employees over to either Revel or JBL...

[Mr Peabody]

What they should have done was put the effort into Infinity and forget starting a new line like Revel. Pictures don't do me a lot of good, I'd be interested in knowing how close the Concerta/Beta/Northridge come to the old Infinity RS-6001 in desing and looks.

[Ajani]

What they should have done was put the effort into Infinity and forget starting a new line like Revel.

Quite possibly.... Though it depends on how bad Infinity's rep was when they started Revel... Since it is often easier to start over with a clean sheet than to try and fix a sour reputation....

[IBSTORMIN]

The Beta 50 and F12 at MSRP were a lot closer in price than your dealer's sale... At $350 versus $950, I'd probably opt for the Beta too!!! At Retail, it would likely be a different story...

Agreed. The drivers in the Infinity and Revel are probably identical, both a layered aluminum/ceramic even though they call them something different. That is probably why the MSRP is closer. The JBL has titanium tweeters and poly mid/woof and retail for much less than the other two. Picking the Infinity up for the JBL price was a steal.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Ajani@quote
All 3 way designs with dual 8 inch woofers and the same driver material used from Twin Woofers to Tweeters...

my observation was the same" when i was shopping for speakers to set up my HT" the Revel Concerta F12, Infinity Beta 50, Jbl North-ridge E 90, were on closed out at the same local. in my neck of the Hoods, I went back & forth for two days trying to compare the three speakers. the F12s were 950.00 ea the Beta 50s & E 90s, were 350.00 & 300.00 ea. upon my third visit the (the sales man pull me to the side and told me all three is the same designs, same woofer, mid, & tweeter material all assemble in Mexico.

Then he drop the bomb on me!! I walk out with the Beta 50s, beta 360c, & beta 20s all for $645.00 + taxes (no problem since 2006 as yet)

I cannot agree with this assessment(except the assembly location). When I last visited there last year(looking for monitors for my post facility), they laid out the drivers of all three of these of these brands (and several more models from various price points across brands from Harmon), and the parts for the Revel were not the same as the JBL or Infinity speakers. I however saw that parts from the Infinity and JBL were consistently similar throughout both brands product range. The Revels tweeter and mid was totally different, and the woofers looked similar but more robust and substantial in comparison to the JBL and Infinity woofer from behind. The crossover was also different from the JBL and Infinity.

[winston]

I cannot agree with this assessment(except the assembly location). When I last visited there last year(looking for monitors for my post facility), they laid out the drivers of all three of these of these brands (and several more models from various price points across brands from Harmon), and the parts for the Revel were not the same as the JBL or Infinity speakers. I however saw that parts from the Infinity and JBL were consistently similar throughout both brands product range. The Revels tweeter and mid was totally different, and the woofers looked similar but more robust and substantial in comparison to the JBL and Infinity woofer from behind. The crossover was also different from the JBL and Infinity.

Sir T the T " I had no doubt that the (Revels F12s) were the top of that line yes Sir" in every way... but I always love that Beta line" if I had to buy them at full retail price i know that I would be better off negotiating a deal on the F12s! as the retail price on the Beta 50 was 600,ea C360 was 400,ea 20s was 400 pr. from they came out in 203 or 204

The sales man description probably wasn't accurate" but those Beta was looking very nice and very close to the revels quality!! and I had a great deal on them

[audio amateur]

There was a time when Infinity was Arnie Nudell. Not just another product line with which to share parts. The Servo Statik was his first product and anything but just another me-too design:

Nudell moved on to using EMIMs in the early 80s and again, came out with another superlative speaker in the IRS. I vividly remember hearing them at length in 1980.

I don't really understand why Infinity exists as a separate company any more. The similarities between the other Harmon product lines renders them irrelevant. There's JBL at the bottom (with a few oddball expensive horn designs) and Revel at the top.

rw

The IRS do look like giant killers. Are those ribbons open baffle or are they in a box?

I'm guessing Infinity was having a hard time if they were bought by harmon, which probably lead them to create speakers they could sell better. But you're right, why create another line? Infinity should go back to it's roots and make similar speakers to the IRS, if not a little smaller so that people will actually have room for them

[Ajani]

Infinity should go back to it's roots and make similar speakers to the IRS, if not a little smaller so that people will actually have room for them

Or can afford them? Since if I'm not mistaken, the IRS were exceptionally expensive...

[E-Stat]

The IRS do look like giant killers. Are those ribbons open baffle or are they in a box?

They were quite good in their day, although I found the transition from the midrange ribbons to the huge servo woofers was a bit abrupt. Open baffle although the tweeters were sealed and required separate units on the back.

I'm guessing Infinity was having a hard time if they were bought by harmon, which probably lead them to create speakers they could sell better. But you're right, why create another line? Infinity should go back to it's roots and make similar speakers to the IRS, if not a little smaller so that people will actually have room for them

Nudell was far gone having created Genesis in the 90s. The Genesis One was the similarly configured follow up to the IRS and weighed a bit over a ton!

rw

[winston]

Or can afford them? Since if I'm not mistaken, the IRS were exceptionally expensive...

yes Ajani" they were around $20,000 per pair if my old head serves me right speaking which was a LOT of money back then!! around that time also they made one the first small/mini speakers that could play Very Very LOUD!! i believe the name of it was the (INFINITESIMAL) ??!! yes i remember these little speakers well...because it was At the Time When Size Really Matters !! yah man" Infinity Is American!!

[E-Stat]

yes Ajani" they were around $20,000 per pair if my old head serves me right speaking which was a LOT of money back then!!

To split hairs, it actually ran more like $30k in 1980. It was a statement product which was quite impressive and offered technologies that trickled down to a whole range of products using the EMIM/EMIT drivers.

rw

[stevenv]

Good work from Audioholics via The Consumerist:

http://consumerist.com/2010/01/compa...ts-caught.html

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/t...icon-outside-1

Great gotcha journalism from Audioholics. Maybe it will open the door to more thorough investigation from other audio reviewers. And not necessarily the blatant rip-offs. I'm also referring the the insanely subjective reviews found in magazines such as Stereophile.

Great find. I loved it. I am sure it cost $3000 to get the THX cer

[nightflier]

Here's another Reviewer's persepective (pretty much the same line, though):

http://www.avguide.com/blog/first-li...r?src=Playback

Or is this the same article that was discussed earlier? In any case the comments that follow are entertaining to read.

What I really would like more "reviewers" to address is what the effect of this has been on how high-end audio is perceived. Personally if I was a hi-fi dealer, I'd have quite a bit to say about this.

Ahem... some of the products that I've been a bit skeptical about are the hi-priced digital media streamers like Soloos - sure it's pretty, but let's be honest, it's just a computer with a touch screen running slightly massaged OpenSource software. In the end, putting a Meridian label on a computer doesn't justify charging $10K for it. As a matter of fact, after yesterday's presentation by Steve Jobs, I think the iPad and an external Dac can do most of what Soloos does for a fraction of the cost.

[E-Stat]

This does not come as a surprise to me. For years many high end manufacturers have been pulling the wool over consumers eyes by using cheap components in their equipment and charging hundreds if not thousands more because they have the name to back it up.

What high end companies are you referring to that used cheap components?

As for other rebadged products, I know that Innersound amps were built by Coda for many years. Coda was another offshoot of the original Threshold company and produced high quality gear.

rw