Busted, another nail in the coffin for 'high-end' audio..

[bubbagump]

Good work from Audioholics via The Consumerist:

http://consumerist.com/2010/01/compa...ts-caught.html

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/t...icon-outside-1

Great gotcha journalism from Audioholics. Maybe it will open the door to more thorough investigation from other audio reviewers. And not necessarily the blatant rip-offs. I'm also referring the the insanely subjective reviews found in magazines such as Stereophile.

[kexodusc]

Not really all that earth shattering, but Lexicon is going to get their butts kicked in the war of public sentiment for awhile. They're hardly the only ones rebadging gear, no are they the only ones selling gear for crazy mark-ups.

I still like some of their gear though.

[kexodusc]

Wonder if there'll be any fallout to Oppo? They could be losing a significant customer here - but then again, maybe they'll just pick up Lexicon customers at the retail rate instead of the wholesale Lexicon rate?

[audio amateur]

How could Lexicon be so stupid as to think this wouldn't be found out (if that's what they were thinking)? Come on, the whole chassis is in there!

[JohnMichael]

Check out this link to Red Rose Music amps and notice the close resemblance to Dussun amps at a much lower retail.


http://www.redrosemusic.com/passion.shtml

Red Rose Passion
The Passion offers twice the power and even more refined sonic quality. Housed in a more traditional 19" chassis, Passion is a very elegant, simple component that makes you want to listen to music. Although compact, Passion is heavy and solidly built to last for decades of musical enjoyment. Passion features all-discrete low noise circuitry throughout, and has a headphone jack on the front panel for private listening or monitoring.

Only 4" tall and 13" deep, the Passion is a very compact 19" rack mount unit which drives virtually any quality speaker with ease. On/off, five inputs and a volume control are provided.

The Passion is extremely affordable, yet offers tremendous power reserves for driving high performance speaker systems. Sonically, the Passion is the favorite of many listeners, combining warmth and delicacy with great body, authority, speed, and clarity.

The Passion is a very elegant package that is at home in any setting. The front panel and volume control, designed by Mark Levinson, is a masterpiece of simplicity and function which is pleasing to the eye and pleasant to the touch.

The Red Rose Passion 100W integrated amplifier costs $3,000.



Now here is a picture of the Dussun DS99 that retails for around $500-$600 before the updated version came out.




http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/dussun_ds99.htm

[kexodusc]

Check out this link to Red Rose Music amps and notice the close resemblance to Dussun amps at a much lower retail.


http://www.redrosemusic.com/passion.shtml

Red Rose Passion
The Passion offers twice the power and even more refined sonic quality. Housed in a more traditional 19" chassis, Passion is a very elegant, simple component that makes you want to listen to music. Although compact, Passion is heavy and solidly built to last for decades of musical enjoyment. Passion features all-discrete low noise circuitry throughout, and has a headphone jack on the front panel for private listening or monitoring.

Only 4" tall and 13" deep, the Passion is a very compact 19" rack mount unit which drives virtually any quality speaker with ease. On/off, five inputs and a volume control are provided.

The Passion is extremely affordable, yet offers tremendous power reserves for driving high performance speaker systems. Sonically, the Passion is the favorite of many listeners, combining warmth and delicacy with great body, authority, speed, and clarity.

The Passion is a very elegant package that is at home in any setting. The front panel and volume control, designed by Mark Levinson, is a masterpiece of simplicity and function which is pleasing to the eye and pleasant to the touch.

The Red Rose Passion 100W integrated amplifier costs $3,000.



Now here is a picture of the Dussun DS99 that retails for around $500-$600 before the updated version came out.




http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/dussun_ds99.htm

Neat. There are companies that exist as manufacturers suppliers to name brand companies. These days everyone is using someone else's components in their equipment to some extent. Most aren't quite as obvious about is as Lexicon appears to be here.

Mind you, what Lexicon has done IMO is not quite as bad as companies deliberately just changing the board layout or color, or add a few tertiary features that are largely irrelevant just to try and hide the fact it is the same piece of gear for all intents and purposes. That's blatant deception on top of gouging IMO.

This isn't unique to the a/v industry either.

[Ajani]

Check out this link to Red Rose Music amps and notice the close resemblance to Dussun amps at a much lower retail.


http://www.redrosemusic.com/passion.shtml

Red Rose Passion
The Passion offers twice the power and even more refined sonic quality. Housed in a more traditional 19" chassis, Passion is a very elegant, simple component that makes you want to listen to music. Although compact, Passion is heavy and solidly built to last for decades of musical enjoyment. Passion features all-discrete low noise circuitry throughout, and has a headphone jack on the front panel for private listening or monitoring.

Only 4" tall and 13" deep, the Passion is a very compact 19" rack mount unit which drives virtually any quality speaker with ease. On/off, five inputs and a volume control are provided.

The Passion is extremely affordable, yet offers tremendous power reserves for driving high performance speaker systems. Sonically, the Passion is the favorite of many listeners, combining warmth and delicacy with great body, authority, speed, and clarity.

The Passion is a very elegant package that is at home in any setting. The front panel and volume control, designed by Mark Levinson, is a masterpiece of simplicity and function which is pleasing to the eye and pleasant to the touch.

The Red Rose Passion 100W integrated amplifier costs $3,000.



Now here is a picture of the Dussun DS99 that retails for around $500-$600 before the updated version came out.




http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/dussun_ds99.htm

JM, I think you're being totally unfair to Red Rose... On their website (the link you provided) they make it clear why the Red Rose costs so much (more than the Dussun):

The front panel and volume control, designed by Mark Levinson, is a masterpiece of simplicity and function which is pleasing to the eye and pleasant to the touch.

Who wouldn't want to pay 5 - 6 times the price, to have Mark Levinson design a sexy new faceplate for the product???

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I've been onto this practice for years with pro mixing equipment. But this is another reason why I won't buy "high end" stuff even though I can easily afford it. I have for years purchased well made stuff, and then had it upgraded to my specifications for mixing and listening. I have never trusted that the big price tags always lead to great sound. As a matter of fact, I have found in some cases it produced a poor product.

THX is a joke, and has been a joke for years. I was surprised that Lexicon got busted with this, but THX has a history of certifying stuff that would not meet their supposedly "secret" standard (it's not a secret to those of us who have been THX certified). Their have been several receivers that have been certified that did not meet their criteria. I am reminded of a THX certified Kenwood receiver that had a power supply that was so small that it would have never been able to meet THX specifications for a 3000 cubic foot room, no way! I know for a fact that THX stopped actually certifying theaters personally (they used to inspect all theaters in person), but allow the theater chain to pay $10,000 per year, per screen for the certification badge even if the theater is not up to snuff. Most theaters now don't even bother with the certification because their own technicians can do the work that THX used to do. THX has pretty much given up the theatrical area, and is focusing now on D-cinema, and digital projectors and video equipment for home consumers. I think the wheel fell off the THX wagon when they decided they were going to certify VHS players back in the 90's, and computer speakers in the late 90's. When you have to dig that low to generate revenue, your certification is basically worthless.

I always laugh when one of our more "uppidity" members here make a comment that my amps are just mid priced Japanese gear. On my signature it may appear to be just that, but when you look under the hood, a different story is told.

You can never judge a book by its cover(or name), and this is a prime example of that.

Oppo should be proud that they produced a Blu ray player so good that Lexicon simply put a new case on it, and charges $2500 more for it. Or should they?

[harley .guy07]

I've been onto this practice for years with pro mixing equipment. But this is another reason why I won't buy "high end" stuff even though I can easily afford it. I have for years purchased well made stuff, and then had it upgraded to my specifications for mixing and listening. I have never trusted that the big price tags always lead to great sound. As a matter of fact, I have found in some cases it produced a poor product.

I have as well seen several times that my good mid prices gear outperforms some of the multi thousand dollar gear some of my friends have or I have worked with in the past. I believe there are components out there that do have a higher price tag because they have the best parts available and they do outperform all mid priced stuff but that is only in certain cases and I have seen this go completely the opposite direction many times. It's funny to watch this take place and I always root for the underdog since I am a person that believes in more for the money. I put in mind the Odyssey Audio Khardago amplifier, this amp is a killer amp and I have heard it several times over the years and the damn thing to me has sounded better than so many amps in the multi thousand dollar range that it is kind of unbelievable. But Odyssey audio sells it for 750 bucks in stock form and just right under 1000 bucks for the modified version and this thing will make speakers sing like some amps with 10,000 dollar price tags on them. In fact when I do upgrade from my Adcom I will be looking very close at the Khardago. At least the Khardago has a price tag that is affordable and real world and I believe that is one thing that is going to help keep this hobby alive for people just getting into it because the economy is not that great in today's world and I don't think its over yet.

[E-Stat]

I always laugh when one of our more "uppidity" members here make a comment that my amps are just mid priced Japanese gear. On my signature it may appear to be just that, but when you look under the hood, a different story is told.

Do you honestly think that Jon Curl thinks his mods to your amps are equivalent to his JC-1 design? C'mon! I'm convinced he could find multiple ways to improve upon any Onkyo implementation in terms of component quality and power supply effectiveness. What he cannot fix is the inherent topology. As good as the JC-1s are (I've heard them at length, have you?), far better exists (at least for musical content). They do quite well, however, at their price point given the Chinese assembly.

rw

[audio amateur]

I just finished reading. Pretty good article

[blackraven]

This does not come as a surprise to me. For years many high end manufacturers have been pulling the wool over consumers eyes by using cheap components in their equipment and charging hundreds if not thousands more because they have the name to back it up.

[E-Stat]

This does not come as a surprise to me. For years many high end manufacturers have been pulling the wool over consumers eyes by using cheap components in their equipment and charging hundreds if not thousands more because they have the name to back it up.

What high end companies are you referring to that used cheap components?

As for other rebadged products, I know that Innersound amps were built by Coda for many years. Coda was another offshoot of the original Threshold company and produced high quality gear.

rw

[Invader3k]

Tak about taking the concept of diminishing returns to a whole new level...

[Mr Peabody]

I personally hope it drives Lexicon out of business and the same for any company who does this. Taking a piece and modding it to be your own offering is one thing but what Lexicon did is a crime. This type of business practice shouldn't be taken lightly by any of you. "Nail in the coffen" may be correct, people see this and it is a black eye for higher end audio. A trust has been broken. Bring on the Chinese gear. I guess it's also a real lesson for us who buy to definitely rely on ourselves as to if we hear or see any improvement. I'ts buyer beware but....... that's just extreme.

I remember back when Yamaha making Carver's tape decks and things like that went on, and you hear that manufacturers build to the brand's specs. Even if Carver had a straight yamaha with Carver's name it isn't as extreme as what Lexicon done. A $100.00 is one thing but $3k is another. Sure manufacturer's gear may share some parts when only a number of makers are available but you don't expect the end product to be the same.

[Ajani]

I personally hope it drives Lexicon out of business and the same for any company who does this. Taking a piece and modding it to be your own offering is one thing but what Lexicon did is a crime. This type of business practice shouldn't be taken lightly by any of you. "Nail in the coffen" may be correct, people see this and it is a black eye for higher end audio. A trust has been broken. Bring on the Chinese gear. I guess it's also a real lesson for us who buy to definitely rely on ourselves as to if we hear or see any improvement. I'ts buyer beware but....... that's just extreme.

I remember back when Yamaha making Carver's tape decks and things like that went on, and you hear that manufacturers build to the brand's specs. Even if Carver had a straight yamaha with Carver's name it isn't as extreme as what Lexicon done. A $100.00 is one thing but $3k is another. Sure manufacturer's gear may share some parts when only a number of makers are available but you don't expect the end product to be the same.

It really is a disgraceful move by Lexicon.... The standard practice in High End is to upgrade to more expensive parts (even if you use the same layout)... Whether those more expensive parts makes an improvement in performance is often up to debate... But to use the exact same parts is just a straight up scam...

If they had at least replaced all the internal wiring with Nordost Valhala (or something suitably expensive) then they would have some basis for the significant jump in price, even if Audioholics tested it and found that it gave no significant performance improvements over the standard OPPO....

[Mr Peabody]

How would you feel if you had bought one of these? I'm not talking to the ones who did, under the Oppo badge I should say, but if you paid $3.5K. It scares me to think how mad I'd be.

[kexodusc]

How would you feel if you had bought one of these? I'm not talking to the ones who did, under the Oppo badge I should say, but if you paid $3.5K. It scares me to think how mad I'd be.

Yeah, the more I think of it...If I found out my Gaggia was a rebadged Hamilton Beach I'd be pretty pissed off.

I give credit to Audioholics too. It takes balls to come out and say this - they risk being cut off from samples. Not just from Lexicon and Oppo, but other companies with something to hide. It's a bit gutsy.

And THX is getting exposed a bit in this as well.

[IRG]

I think this scam should be brought to light by the mainstream audio rags. They should expose them for the frauds they are, irregardless of their advertising budgets.

I took an extended break from audiophile land, seems like deceipt and the snake oil products are still alive and well. Too bad too.

[IRG]

Yeah I agree, kudos to Audioholics, I haven't read them before, but I will now. THey didn't try to sugar coat this at all, which gives them more credibility. I probably wouldn't have purchased a Lexicon product before, but now I never will.

[Mr Peabody]

Is Lexicon still under the same umbrella with Levinson and all the other Harmon products?

I can't say how true this is but I don't see why this person would lie, I was speaking to a manager of a high end shop who dabbled with Levinson and decided not to go with them because they had defective products come in for eval.

[Ajani]

Is Lexicon still under the same umbrella with Levinson and all the other Harmon products?

I can't say how true this is but I don't see why this person would lie, I was speaking to a manager of a high end shop who dabbled with Levinson and decided not to go with them because they had defective products come in for eval.

Sadly, Lexicon (and Levinson) is still part of the Harman group...

[Ajani]

Good work from Audioholics via The Consumerist:

http://consumerist.com/2010/01/compa...ts-caught.html

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/t...icon-outside-1

Great gotcha journalism from Audioholics. Maybe it will open the door to more thorough investigation from other audio reviewers. And not necessarily the blatant rip-offs. I'm also referring the the insanely subjective reviews found in magazines such as Stereophile.

Good thread....

Though I think you need to keep in mind that not all review mags/sites have the technical expertise as Audioholics...

Stereophile focuses on Subjective and Measurements.... Not opening up chassis's and comparing to other brands...

And they do identify when products are poor value for money based on measurements (and subjective reviews)... For example: In this recent review of the Bel Canto USB Link:

http://www.stereophile.com/budgetcom...er/index1.html

John Atkinson makes this comparison:

Both the M-Audio and E-Mu devices provide the same basic conversion as the Bel Canto, with the added complication of the user having to install a driver program, but at significantly lower cost. When I played music CDs through them and the Benchmark DAC1, I could hear no appreciable differences among the three USB-S/PDIF converters. With the Assemblage DAC-1, the Bel Canto Link gave a sound that was cleaner than the E-Mu's but, to my surprise, was not appreciably different from the cheap M-Audio's, even with high-sample-rate files.

And concludes with this:

Provided it is used with a D/A processor that offers effective jitter rejection, the USB Link 24/96 does what Bel Canto promises it will do, and can be recommended. However, I can't pretend that the $495 USB Link doesn't come under strong competition from M-Audio's $100 Transit USB. Both handle sample rates up to 96kHz, and for a Mac user like me, the potential advantage of the Bel Canto of not having to manually set playback sample rate with Windows is moot. But with its aluminum enclosure, the made-in-America Bel Canto does feel like a high-end product; with the Chinese-made M-Audio, plastic is as plastic does.

[RGA]

Unfortunately this action hurts the entire high end industry where most companies do in fact build or create or original products, or heavily modify parts. We know that there are very few companies making cd readers, transports etc but usually companies will modify them rather heavily. And they will sound and measure differently. For instance Sim Audio, Bryston BCD-1 and Audio Note's one box player all use the same Philips L1210 transport mechanism but then all three tell you that. Moreover, none of them sound the alike and under the chassis - you can see that all three have considerably different parts and layouts. It doesn't make sense to re-invent the wheel. Lexicon is a whole other matter.

Plenty of companies though have rebadged Chinese gear from Shengya, Jungson etc under their own label - Vincent for example. But at least Vincent's prices are pretty much the same as the Chinese named counterparts and there isn't a direct model to compete with. And they don't hide from the fact.

I had a Pioneer laserdisc player - they rebadged the identical player and put a piano black glossy front on it and rosewood side panels under the "Elite" name badge. My machine was $650 - the Elite was $1200. There was a Hitachi that was the exact same machine in gray instead of black for $500 or something. The machine was exactly the same. Pioneer also rebranded their receivers under the "Sears" logo for a long time - oddly the Sears branded models cost more.

[Ajani]

Looks like we'll get an additional opinion on this, from Stereophile in the March issue:

http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/s...r&Number=80773

http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/s...gonew=1#UNREAD