Busted, another nail in the coffin for 'high-end' audio..

[Feanor]

Another angle on this issue ... I recently heard Conrad Johnson criticized for have a short product range: scarcely a dozen products and all amps and preamps. Another example is Pass Labs. There is no doubt these company make product that is great and entirely their own. What's my point?

I get suspicious when I see a company making a "full range" or products: amps, players, DACs, speakers, phono equipment, speakers. Can a small or medium-sized company be good at all these things? Can they do the research and product development for all these things? Likely not. Almost inevidably they have to buy not just technology but actual product for other companies. And if they have a "high-end" image and, more particularly, a high-end distribution channel, they have to have high markup to make their profits. So now we're talking about the likes of Lexicon; (the fact that they might be owned by Harmon International doesn't make them a big company).

The more integrated a technology, the more suspicious I get about the value for high-price product. E.g. DACs >$1500 that use only off-the-shelf Texas Instruments LSI chips, (or Wolfson for that matter). Using these chips, DAC design and construction is relatively simple, and even with high quality peripheral components, it only costs so much to built a unit apart from milled face plates and such cosmetic extras. (DACs like those from dCS and EMM Labs are rather different because they use a lot of discrete components.)

[Ajani]

Another angle on this issue ... I recently heard Conrad Johnson criticized for have a short product range: scarcely a dozen products and all amps and preamps. Another example is Pass Labs. There is no doubt these company make product that is great and entirely their own. What's my point?

I get suspicious when I see a company making a "full range" or products: amps, players, DACs, speakers, phono equipment, speakers. Can a small or medium-sized company be good at all these things? Can they do the research and product development for all these things? Likely not. Almost inevidably they have to buy not just technology but actual product for other companies. And if they have a "high-end" image and, more particularly, a high-end distribution channel, they have to have high markup to make their profits. So now we're talking about the likes of Lexicon; (the fact that they might be owned by Harmon International doesn't make them a big company).

The more integrated a technology, the more suspicious I get about the value for high-price product. E.g. DACs >$1500 that use only off-the-shelf Texas Instruments LSI chips, (or Wolfson for that matter). Using these chips, DAC design and construction is relatively simple, and even with high quality peripheral components, it only costs so much to built a unit apart from milled face plates and such cosmetic extras. (DACs like those from dCS and EMM Labs are rather different because they use a lot of discrete components.)

I see what you're saying but I don't think it really applies to Lexicon... They only make Preamplifiers/Processors, Power Amps, Receivers (combination of the first two) and Disc Players.... So not a very wide range of products.... So even we ignore their membership in the Harman Group and just regard them as a small company, they don't have a wide enough product range to make them 'suspicious'...

Worse yet, considering how well established Lexicon is in high end (and Pro Audio) most persons would have trusted them to produce a good product...

[Mr Peabody]

I was emailing with a guy I know in the business and regarding what Feanor was saying Classe' will not be coming out with a Blu ray player because they cannot do it themselves and something with an issue integrating of their LCD touch screens. He also said that Harmon is not in good financial condition and there are products not that old in some of their lines, Levinson was particularly mentioned, that Harmon will not repair. There are a couple service shops they refer people to but if they aren't able to help some one could end up with an expensive door stop.

[Feanor]

I see what you're saying but I don't think it really applies to Lexicon... They only make Preamplifiers/Processors, Power Amps, Receivers (combination of the first two) and Disc Players.... So not a very wide range of products.... So even we ignore their membership in the Harman Group and just regard them as a small company, they don't have a wide enough product range to make them 'suspicious'...

Worse yet, considering how well established Lexicon is in high end (and Pro Audio) most persons would have trusted them to produce a good product...

We might debate the relative position of Lexicon in the small/specialized to large/wide-range continum. But it seems clear that they are guilty of "rounding out" their range despite that the component isn't one they developed or make.

Lexicon is, from an image and marketing persepective, a (relatively) high-end provider. A typical high-ends strategy is high markup to compensate for lessor sales volume and an expensive distribution channel. (Bear in mind that Oppo sells direct for its MSRP; Lexicon sells through dealers who may allow heavy discounts.) The high-end marque is after a high markup regardless of where they source their product.

When are people going to understand that there is a very loose connection MSRP price on the one hand, and either basic cost of manufacture and/or quality on the other??

But of course I have a lot more respect for Outlaw Audio for offering the Onkyo prepro unit undisguised while they complete the process of developing their own prepro -- which has been a long time coming by now.

[Ajani]

I was emailing with a guy I know in the business and regarding what Feanor was saying Classe' will not be coming out with a Blu ray player because they cannot do it themselves and something with an issue integrating of their LCD touch screens. He also said that Harmon is not in good financial condition and there are products not that old in some of their lines, Levinson was particularly mentioned, that Harmon will not repair. There are a couple service shops they refer people to but if they aren't able to help some one could end up with an expensive door stop.

Classe has class

They understand that if they can't do it right themselves, then there's no point in embarrassing themselves with either a sub-standard product or a scam like Lexicon...

As for the Harman group not being in good financial condition, that really is sad... I'm a big fan of their Revel and AKG lines... So I'd hate to see either of those 2 go down with the ship (if the ship goes down)...

[Mr Peabody]

Excellent point, and I had forgotten about the Outlaw issue. In light of things it would seem Outlaw made the right decision and good for them for not rebadging. I wonder though if they did put the Onkyo in an Outlaw case how much cheaper it may have been.

I think most realize there is more mark up on high end audio as there is on any high end product but as some one mentioned you don't expect a Civic when paying for an Accura. Either way it certainly seems to validate the approach of companies like Oppo and Emotiva. I don't see Oppo as the bad guy in this scenario either, they didn't make Lexicon do what they did. I suspect Oppo owners are probably feeling quite justified after hearing this story.

[Mr Peabody]

I didn't realize AKG was under Harmon. You know I bought a pair of their earbuds and thought for the money they were good, I recommended them to a poster and went back to see which model I bought and the current reviews of newer models are not so good.

[kexodusc]

Classe has class

They understand that if they can't do it right themselves, then there's no point in embarrassing themselves with either a sub-standard product or a scam like Lexicon...

As for the Harman group not being in good financial condition, that really is sad... I'm a big fan of their Revel and AKG lines... So I'd hate to see either of those 2 go down with the ship (if the ship goes down)...

There would be a lot of people lined up to buy Harman assets and continue several brands if it came that, I think. The worry would be whether some holding company bought Revel and started cranking out crap speakers at high prices. I don't think that would happen - some of those brands would have decent business models and could probably do ok with clean balance sheets and tweaking.

[Ajani]

Check out this link to Red Rose Music amps and notice the close resemblance to Dussun amps at a much lower retail.


http://www.redrosemusic.com/passion.shtml

Red Rose Passion
The Passion offers twice the power and even more refined sonic quality. Housed in a more traditional 19" chassis, Passion is a very elegant, simple component that makes you want to listen to music. Although compact, Passion is heavy and solidly built to last for decades of musical enjoyment. Passion features all-discrete low noise circuitry throughout, and has a headphone jack on the front panel for private listening or monitoring.

Only 4" tall and 13" deep, the Passion is a very compact 19" rack mount unit which drives virtually any quality speaker with ease. On/off, five inputs and a volume control are provided.

The Passion is extremely affordable, yet offers tremendous power reserves for driving high performance speaker systems. Sonically, the Passion is the favorite of many listeners, combining warmth and delicacy with great body, authority, speed, and clarity.

The Passion is a very elegant package that is at home in any setting. The front panel and volume control, designed by Mark Levinson, is a masterpiece of simplicity and function which is pleasing to the eye and pleasant to the touch.

The Red Rose Passion 100W integrated amplifier costs $3,000.



Now here is a picture of the Dussun DS99 that retails for around $500-$600 before the updated version came out.




http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/dussun_ds99.htm

JM, I think you're being totally unfair to Red Rose... On their website (the link you provided) they make it clear why the Red Rose costs so much (more than the Dussun):

The front panel and volume control, designed by Mark Levinson, is a masterpiece of simplicity and function which is pleasing to the eye and pleasant to the touch.

Who wouldn't want to pay 5 - 6 times the price, to have Mark Levinson design a sexy new faceplate for the product???

[Ajani]

Excellent point, and I had forgotten about the Outlaw issue. In light of things it would seem Outlaw made the right decision and good for them for not rebadging. I wonder though if they did put the Onkyo in an Outlaw case how much cheaper it may have been.

Outlaw clearly did the right thing... So did PS Audio (in a way)... since up until they release their own Perfect Wave music server, they've been pushing the AppleTV as the device to use... They could have just slapped on a PS Audio Faceplate on a AppleTV and charged $1K for it as part of the Trio Line....

I think most realize there is more mark up on high end audio as there is on any high end product but as some one mentioned you don't expect a Civic when paying for an Accura.

Most likely the smaller Acura will be based on the Civic Chassis... But the upgrades will be substantial (better engine, transmission, just about everything)... So there will be no disputing that it is a different and more expensive vehicle... However the markup will be higher and whether those upgrades are worth it is up the consumer to determine...

In Speakers, many times a manufacturer's entry level product will have the same basic design as their top of the line. Compare the Revel Concerta F12 with the Revel Ultima Studio 2:

http://www.revelspeakers.com/product...asp?product=19

http://www.revelspeakers.com/product...asp?product=28

Both have the same layout and complement of drivers:

A three-way system utilizing two 8-inch woofers, a 5¼-inch midrange and a 1-inch tweeter

But the specs on the Studio 2 are substantially better is as the build quality (and presumably there are substantial changes internally)... Now whether the improvement in sound justifies the difference in price ($1.5K versus $16K) is up the consumer...

Either way it certainly seems to validate the approach of companies like Oppo and Emotiva. I don't see Oppo as the bad guy in this scenario either, they didn't make Lexicon do what they did. I suspect Oppo owners are probably feeling quite justified after hearing this story.

As far as I can tell, Oppo did nothing wrong... There is no reason to assume that Oppo knew that Lexicon would just repackage their product (rather than upgrading it as is the standard practice)... Unless Oppo was also hired as a design consultant for the Lexicon model...

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I've been onto this practice for years with pro mixing equipment. But this is another reason why I won't buy "high end" stuff even though I can easily afford it. I have for years purchased well made stuff, and then had it upgraded to my specifications for mixing and listening. I have never trusted that the big price tags always lead to great sound. As a matter of fact, I have found in some cases it produced a poor product.

THX is a joke, and has been a joke for years. I was surprised that Lexicon got busted with this, but THX has a history of certifying stuff that would not meet their supposedly "secret" standard (it's not a secret to those of us who have been THX certified). Their have been several receivers that have been certified that did not meet their criteria. I am reminded of a THX certified Kenwood receiver that had a power supply that was so small that it would have never been able to meet THX specifications for a 3000 cubic foot room, no way! I know for a fact that THX stopped actually certifying theaters personally (they used to inspect all theaters in person), but allow the theater chain to pay $10,000 per year, per screen for the certification badge even if the theater is not up to snuff. Most theaters now don't even bother with the certification because their own technicians can do the work that THX used to do. THX has pretty much given up the theatrical area, and is focusing now on D-cinema, and digital projectors and video equipment for home consumers. I think the wheel fell off the THX wagon when they decided they were going to certify VHS players back in the 90's, and computer speakers in the late 90's. When you have to dig that low to generate revenue, your certification is basically worthless.

I always laugh when one of our more "uppidity" members here make a comment that my amps are just mid priced Japanese gear. On my signature it may appear to be just that, but when you look under the hood, a different story is told.

You can never judge a book by its cover(or name), and this is a prime example of that.

Oppo should be proud that they produced a Blu ray player so good that Lexicon simply put a new case on it, and charges $2500 more for it. Or should they?

[Mr Peabody]

With the appearance of the 83se and NuForce additions it's apparent that there was places for improvements to be made. Lexicon didn't even try.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

With the appearance of the 83se and NuForce additions it's apparent that there was places for improvements to be made. Lexicon didn't even try.

In order to throw all of the great video bells and whistles, and with the knowledge that quite a few of its owner would be going the HDMI route, the analog audio stages (while still good) had to take a hit. The SE and NuForce additions take care of that issue. If Lexicon was smart(er), they would have taken the Oppo with the NuForce additions and rebadged it. At least that would have looked like they were making some improvements. In this case Lexicon AND THX take the hit, and Oppo comes out smelling like a rose. As good as the Oppo is, THX should not have certified it, because it does not meet their specs. I am not referring to the build or quality of the player, I am referring to their particular specs on pre-pros and receivers where the bass management has to crossover at 80hz, with a particular LP and HP slopes designed specifically for their THX approved speakers.

[harley .guy07]

I've been onto this practice for years with pro mixing equipment. But this is another reason why I won't buy "high end" stuff even though I can easily afford it. I have for years purchased well made stuff, and then had it upgraded to my specifications for mixing and listening. I have never trusted that the big price tags always lead to great sound. As a matter of fact, I have found in some cases it produced a poor product.

I have as well seen several times that my good mid prices gear outperforms some of the multi thousand dollar gear some of my friends have or I have worked with in the past. I believe there are components out there that do have a higher price tag because they have the best parts available and they do outperform all mid priced stuff but that is only in certain cases and I have seen this go completely the opposite direction many times. It's funny to watch this take place and I always root for the underdog since I am a person that believes in more for the money. I put in mind the Odyssey Audio Khardago amplifier, this amp is a killer amp and I have heard it several times over the years and the damn thing to me has sounded better than so many amps in the multi thousand dollar range that it is kind of unbelievable. But Odyssey audio sells it for 750 bucks in stock form and just right under 1000 bucks for the modified version and this thing will make speakers sing like some amps with 10,000 dollar price tags on them. In fact when I do upgrade from my Adcom I will be looking very close at the Khardago. At least the Khardago has a price tag that is affordable and real world and I believe that is one thing that is going to help keep this hobby alive for people just getting into it because the economy is not that great in today's world and I don't think its over yet.

[Ajani]

I have as well seen several times that my good mid prices gear outperforms some of the multi thousand dollar gear some of my friends have or I have worked with in the past. I believe there are components out there that do have a higher price tag because they have the best parts available and they do outperform all mid priced stuff but that is only in certain cases and I have seen this go completely the opposite direction many times. It's funny to watch this take place and I always root for the underdog since I am a person that believes in more for the money. I put in mind the Odyssey Audio Khardago amplifier, this amp is a killer amp and I have heard it several times over the years and the damn thing to me has sounded better than so many amps in the multi thousand dollar range that it is kind of unbelievable. But Odyssey audio sells it for 750 bucks in stock form and just right under 1000 bucks for the modified version and this thing will make speakers sing like some amps with 10,000 dollar price tags on them. In fact when I do upgrade from my Adcom I will be looking very close at the Khardago. At least the Khardago has a price tag that is affordable and real world and I believe that is one thing that is going to help keep this hobby alive for people just getting into it because the economy is not that great in today's world and I don't think its over yet.

The Khartago is on my list of potential amps as well... It's pretty much either that or the Naim Nait 5i... both have strong reputations as exceptionally good despite the relatively low prices...

The trick for the budget conscious audiophile is to read as many reviews (and measurements) as possible and then audition keenly... there are so many great products available for reasonable money, that you can easily assemble something that sounds genuinely high-end, just without the high-end price tag... NOTE: that does not mean that there are not still better products available for a lot more money...

Experts like Sir T, can buy good affordable gear and have them altered to spec (which is one of the best ways to ensure you don't get ripped off)... Since I have no such expertise, I instead check out numerous professional and user reviews and keenly audition to get the best value for my money... I also have a policy that gear has to both sound good to me and measure well....

The reason measurement matters to me is because I want to be sure that I'm getting a real improvement for my money and not just a different sound (for an elevated price tag)... For example, some persons might audition a $1K Benchmark DAC1 and decide that they prefer the sound of some high-end company's $3K DAC... However, how do they know that the $3K DAC is really better and not just that it provides a sound they prefer? Further, how do they know that there is not another $1K DAC that measures and sounds like the $3K one?

[pixelthis]

badge engineering, what I have been talking about on this site for years.

ALTHOUGH one of the worst examples I have seem.
Isnt putting a Sony drive in a 2000$ CD player about as bad?

[Ajani]

badge engineering, what I have been talking about on this site for years.

ALTHOUGH one of the worst examples I have seem.
Isnt putting a Sony drive in a 2000$ CD player about as bad?

Depends on what components they use around the drive.... If the drive is just used for extracting digital info and then all the analog work is done by 'audiophile' parts then it can be OK...

Computer Audio has shown that you can use a cheap consumer device (Squeezebox, AppeTV or even iPod for example) as transports for exceptionally expensive and High Quality Stereo Systems...

Not every single component needs to be high end... Just the ones handling conversion to analog and analog outputs....

[E-Stat]

I always laugh when one of our more "uppidity" members here make a comment that my amps are just mid priced Japanese gear. On my signature it may appear to be just that, but when you look under the hood, a different story is told.

Do you honestly think that Jon Curl thinks his mods to your amps are equivalent to his JC-1 design? C'mon! I'm convinced he could find multiple ways to improve upon any Onkyo implementation in terms of component quality and power supply effectiveness. What he cannot fix is the inherent topology. As good as the JC-1s are (I've heard them at length, have you?), far better exists (at least for musical content). They do quite well, however, at their price point given the Chinese assembly.

rw

[Ajani]

Do you honestly think that Jon Curl thinks his mods to your amps are equivalent to his JC-1 design? C'mon! I'm convinced he could find multiple ways to improve upon the Onkyo implementation in terms of component quality and power supply effectiveness. What he cannot fix is the inherent topology. As good as the JC-1s are (I've heard them at length, have you?), far better exists (at least for musical content). They do quite well, however, at their price point given the Chinese assembly.

rw

I think I'm going to need some popcorn to fully enjoy this one....

[E-Stat]

I am referring to their particular specs on pre-pros and receivers where the bass management has to crossover at 80hz, with a particular LP and HP slopes designed specifically for their THX approved speakers.

I would sincerely hope these "THX approved" speakers also break with the bass management convention because I seriously doubt the 2.5" *mains* have any clue whatsoever as to what 80 hz means!

High End THX

rw

[Feanor]

... As good as the JC-1s are (I've heard them at length, have you?), far better exists (at least for musical content). They do quite well, however, at their price point given the Chinese assembly.

rw

I don't know about the JC-1 in particular, but I think it's important not to developed a prejudiced attitude towards assembly in China. The fact is that assembly there will be exactly as good as the maker wants it to be. That is, given adequate supervison and QA, quality can be as good as anywhere.

Or maybe better when you think of it: lower wages costs can go towards more careful, deliberate work.

[E-Stat]

I don't know about the JC-1 in particular, but I think it's important not to developed a prejudiced attitude towards assembly in China.

Chinese assembly simply assures lower cost. Both the JC-1 amp and the (new) JC-2 preamp offer great performance for the buck. I have been a fan of Jon Curl's designs since I first heard the Mark Levinson JC-2 back in '75.

The JC-1 amp is a fine design that runs class A for a pretty good part of its range. I heard them driving Sound Lab Majestics. In fact, Dr. West uses JC-1s himself! They sound great until you compare them to something like VTL Siegfrieds or ARC 600Ts

rw

[thekid]

But I think the real shock here is because Lexicon is a well established brand and part of a major group... so it really has no excuse for this... Some startup "High-End" brand would be expected to be involved in this type of scandal.....

I think the opposite is true. The new kid on the block has not built up a reputation and will almost invite scrutiny based on its price. I think the established companies are more likely to this route because of their perceived reputation for quality.

I think Feanor also makes the point that a company that has good reputation and offers a large array of products might be prone to give in to temptation because they might have limited resources to devote to certain products.

[Ajani]

I think the opposite is true. The new kid on the block has not built up a reputation and will almost invite scrutiny based on its price. I think the established companies are more likely to this route because of their perceived reputation for quality.

I think Feanor also makes the point that a company that has good reputation and offers a large array of products might be prone to give in to temptation because they might have limited resources to devote to certain products.

The problem with that is that it assumes that a brand that has been operating 'honestly' for years or even decades, is suddenly going to do something fraudulent... I more expect a new company to be run by crooks from the get go, than an established one to suddenly change direction...

Lexicon didn't need to do this... despite any talk about pressures, they could have just opted to not build a Blu-Ray Player and stick to Amplification....

Just as I wouldn't expect an employee who's been with a company for decades to suddenly start stealing... I'd be more suspicious of the new employees...

[Ajani]

Home Theater Review has also been getting a lot of heat for their recent gushing review of the Lexicon... Especially since the reviewer bought an Oppo BD-83 SE to compare the two and prove that the Lexicon wasn't just a rebadged Oppo:

http://hometheaterreview.com/lexicon...ayer-reviewed/

I am sure people will attack this player as a "rebadged" Oppo, so I went out and bought an Oppo BD-83 SE in order to fairly compare the two. First off, there is no comparison between the build quality of the two players. The Oppo is lighter and the buttons have a far less solid feel to them. The Lexicon is a taller, much heftier unit. Black levels were close, but the Lexicon had a more natural contrast and color palette than the Oppo. More importantly, the Lexicon was nearly totally silent when loading discs and changing tracks. Those familiar with the Oppo know it is a rather noisy player when loading discs, switching tracks and scanning, even sometimes for no apparent reason. The drive is in the Oppo is noisy enough to catch my attention during quiet passages in movies, while the Lexicon is inaudible during use at all times.

And of course the Lexicon story is spreading across Hi-Fi Sites:

http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-ne...0-release.html

Though I rarely diss review sites/mags... I have to admit that I was never a fan of HTR, as I found some of their reviews to be utter crap... I'd see a review of an integrated amp with no mention of how it sounds, but a recommendation to buy it at the end of the review... I can accept a short review, but I still want some details on sound and what you compared it to... not just a listing of the products features like a cheap brochure...