Using Cables as Tone Controls

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

When posts are becoming more insulting than valuable not visiting would be a good thing. When your insults far outweigh contributions it is time to bid ado.

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You cannot argue for an unbiased view, and then present a biased view - and respond to it with your powers. I found a certain poster views a bit insulting from a audio knowledge and education point of view, and then you decided that this point of view was insulting to someone else.

What is valuable is context and a matter of perspective. If you have Hitler's power to decide what is a good thing, and what is not, don't be surprised if you are criticized(and quite frankly rightly so) from a person who has done your job here, and come to a different conclusion than your air tight mindset.

From a 18 year perspective, I have come to a firm and educated understanding of why this site has become largely irrelevant.

FA, the danger to this site is it has become largely irrelevant on the internet largely because the moderators want a country club mentality, and relevance and education cannot survive and thrive is this narrow minded atmosphere.

Hitler thought that any attack on his philosophy was was instantly grounds for death. Your ideology on this site unfortunately is similar.

JM, if your comments state that you don't want me here, then I am gone.

No loss for me.......

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

...relevance and education cannot survive and thrive is this narrow minded atmosphere...

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I might agree with you except that the post that I deleted was neither relevant nor educational. It wasn't the point of view that I found insulting, it was your choice of words to express that view. I know that you are an intelligent man and you certainly could have made your point with better words. Instead you chose to use derogatory words that were insulting to both the topic and the OP.

Had someone said to you what you said to someone else, you would have gone on the defensive and you would have attacked back. I'm not new here, I've seen it happen. I was just stopping things before they could escalate.

I try my best to be fair. I'm not going to apologize for deleting the post. I believe it was the right thing to do.

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Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn

I might agree with you except that the post that I deleted was neither relevant nor educational. It wasn't the point of view that I found insulting, it was your choice of words to express that view. I know that you are an intelligent man and you certainly could have made your point with better words. Instead you chose to use derogatory words that were insulting to both the topic and the OP.

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This comment tells me that you want to control what I say, and how I say it. Anyone with one third of a brain will take offense to this. You may not because you have the control of the edit button, and quite frankly a set agenda. Unfortunately a set agenda by a moderator chased more than half of the regular posters off on this site long ago, and it seems apparent that some folks have learned nothing from that history.

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Had someone said to you what you said to someone else, you would have gone on the defensive and you would have attacked back. I'm not new here, I've seen it happen. I was just stopping things before they could escalate.

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You don't know me as well as you think you do. I may have gone on the OFFENSIVE(not the defensive as you wrongfully state), or I may ignore the post because I have other things to do. Some people are worth responding to, others, not so much because they are obviously to stupid to respond to. If you think I have responded 100% in the way you have stated, then you don't know my posts (or who I am) nearly as well as you think you do. Over my history here, I have ignored far more stupid posts than I have responded to, and that is a fact.

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I try my best to be fair. I'm not going to apologize for deleting the post. I believe it was the right thing to do.

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Hitler thought it was the right thing to kill jews, so please forgive me if I believe the "right" thing is so highly subjective, that there is sometimes no fairness at all. Our best may not be good enough to some.....

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

I am not as worried about which cable is which, just if there are differences that can be detected. That is usually the root of the argument, that there is no difference between cables (that do not include active parts).

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I don't think that was the root of the argument as there are differences between cables as not all cables are created equal.

I think the root of argument is whether one should choose cables subjectively (listening), or objectively (specifications) as your approach will determine which side of the fence you are on :)

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Originally Posted by Smokey

I don't think that was the root of the argument as there are differences between cables as not all cables are created equal.

I think the root of argument is whether one should choose cables subjectively (listening), or objectively (specifications) as your approach will determine which side of the fence you are on :)

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There are plenty of cables that are made "Theoretically" the same, but still have been said to have differences in sound. I know that the 3 pcs of gear I run in my main setup were put together by the original shop for synergy. He also originally had the buyer wire it all up with Kimber PBJs and 8TC. Sound was thin and not in control at all. He went beck and rewired everything with Synergistic Research and there was a huge difference.

My cable swapping experiences are not huge, but I did put the PBJs up against my similarly priced Tara Labs at that time in my old setup and again found the Kimber to be a weak link. I have also swapped out any one of my different Tara and Audioquest cables for the Synergistic, only to put them back pretty quick.

So I guess you could say that I choose Subjectively. What side of the fence are you on?

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

There are plenty of cables that are made "Theoretically" the same, but still have been said to have differences in sound. I know that the 3 pcs of gear I run in my main setup were put together by the original shop for synergy. He also originally had the buyer wire it all up with Kimber PBJs and 8TC. Sound was thin and not in control at all. He went beck and rewired everything with Synergistic Research and there was a huge difference.

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I am really not surprise. I looked at Kimber PBJs IC and 8TC speaker cables, and from its geometry and bundling toghether - and + conductors I can tell you it probably have excessive capacitance due to individual wraped conductors.

The Ic ia also unshielded which mean it have high noise to signal ratio. So no surprises when it makes system sound thin. If dealer approach was more objective, he probaly would not pick this cable as its transparency is questionable.

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So I guess you could say that I choose Subjectively. What side of the fence are you on?

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I am on the right side of the fence :D

But seriously, my approach would be that cables should not have any "signature" sound (even if its for better), so I guess that makes it objectively :)

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Originally Posted by Smokey

I am really not surprise. I looked at Kimber PBJs IC and 8TC speaker cables, and from its geometry and bundling toghether - and + conductors I can tell you it probably have excessive capacitance due to individual wraped conductors.

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And there are countless users of Kimber products that claim these exact cables are the best they have heard in their systems. So component synergy must have something to do with it or we would all say they are great, or we all would say they are not.

So it really comes down to what each individual set of ears (and coupled brain) thinks it likes better.

I starter this thread off talking about an overly bright combination of gear that I was able to tame with a specific set of cables touted to do exactly what they did. Whether they should or should not impart their own signature to the mix, it made my specific setup sound better and much more tolerable.

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Originally Posted by Smokey

I am on the right side of the fence :D

But seriously, my approach would be that cables should not have any "signature" sound (even if its for better), so I guess that makes it objectively :)

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That's fair enough. But the whole premise of this thread was about using cables that DO have a signature to alter the sound of a system in a particular way.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

I starter this thread off talking about an overly bright combination of gear that I was able to tame with a specific set of cables touted to do exactly what they did. Whether they should or should not impart their own signature to the mix, it made my specific setup sound better and much more tolerable.

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My approach would have been different if have bright system. Assuming using quality cables to begin with, I would investigate as to why system sound bright. Starting with room accoustic and speakers placement first, then speakers and then components.

Down side of taming a system's brightness with cables would be that now cables will add its own signature (toning down brightness) to the mix. Now any time you play a record or from source that is not not so bright, the cables will make it sound even darker. So by solving a system sonic problem with cable, you are creating another sonic problem :)

I know why the system is bright, and you only theoretically would have done something differently.

I can't change much about the room. I have changed the whole setup of gear around since this thread started. The other thing you don't get, since you have no first hand real world experience, is that some people like more bass than others and if a cable tames a known bright speaker and I like it, you can throw all your non-tested theory out the window.

Sure I could have sold my speakers and bought different ones.
Sure, I could have given away a nice $800 receiver that I got for $100.
Sure, I could buy yet another good CD player instead of using my OPPO93 for both CD and Movie playback.

But I was able to solve my own problem by experimenting with a set of ICs that were sitting idle but known to be more on the bass side.

Since this thread was started, I took the JM Labs speakers out of the setup that I started talking about and now instead of a Receiver driving them from 2 rooms away, they are being driven by a quality amplifier and pre-amp, using only 8foot speaker cables of thick gauge (instead of 50feet of zip cord) and quality ICs. The speakers are setup in a different spot and I removed an unused sub that was near the speakers.

Results? One wonderful sounding setup that I have about $2500 into that I have been enjoying more lately than my main setup that cost close to $20,000 back in the 90s.

I still have the Groneberg cables between the OPPO and the Rotel driving my outdoor speakers and a cheap set of Polks in another room and I really don't think about or care if there is a sonic signature anymore. But I do know that because cables can and do cause differences in sound, I was able to make a setup sound better to me with the simple swapping of a set of ICs.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

I know why the system is bright, and you only theoretically would have done something differently.

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You cannot make such a statement unless you think exactly like Smoke. A person who does not think like I do, who does not have the same priorities as I do, cannot tell what I will do in any given situation.

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I can't change much about the room. I have changed the whole setup of gear around since this thread started. The other thing you don't get, since you have no first hand real world experience, is that some people like more bass than others and if a cable tames a known bright speaker and I like it, you can throw all your non-tested theory out the window.

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One can say your views theories are non-tested as well. Liking more bass is a subjective preference that should not be based on transfer devices(cables), but those devices that can be adjusted based on the recording itself. Using a IC as a tone control subjects all sources to the same treatment, which can make one piece of software sound right, and another sound overly heavy and veiled. A tone control is crude in its control of adjustments, and a EQ is much better.

Stereophile did some measurements on a wide variety of cables, and these test where published in a AES white paper in 2004. When it came to frequency response(how we perceive the amplitude of individual signal of various tones mashed together in time), this testing only noted variables in frequencies above 18khz, and near 25-20hz. The poorly made ones did alter the timbre and texture audibly, and the better made ones had no difference that would be audible. These measurements were done in a laboratory with no speakers involved. When these cables were used in actual systems in actual rooms, listeners were unable to detect any differences in DB testing. The acoustics of the room were swamping listeners ears ability to detect these minute differences. What does this tell us? That any differences between cables in sighted listening test introduced biases that are not born out with objective cable measurements. If you really want to hear what a cable is doing, then you have to damp and neutralize the effect of the speaker/room interaction. Anything less, is just sighted bias or the placebo effect.

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Sure I could have sold my speakers and bought different ones.
Sure, I could have given away a nice $800 receiver that I got for $100.
Sure, I could buy yet another good CD player instead of using my OPPO93 for both CD and Movie playback.

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Yes you could have made all of these changes, but they would not have the effect of just treating your rooms modes and nodes. This would be majoring in minors.

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But I was able to solve my own problem by experimenting with a set of ICs that were sitting idle but known to be more on the bass side.

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Known how, by measurements or by subjective biased listening? Did you place your head in exactly the same place when changing these cables? Probably not. Ethan Winer was able to demonstrate that small changes in head placement relative to the sources(in this case speakers) in a non treated or under treated room can have a significant impact on what we hear. Moving our heads one inch can have a 6db impact on what we hear, as we move in and out of room modes and nodes. Unless you keep your head in exactly the same place each time you listen, what you hear may be different from one time to the next. If a cable introduces a 6db difference in what you hear, then the cable is not suitable as a transfer device.

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Since this thread was started, I took the JM Labs speakers out of the setup that I started talking about and now instead of a Receiver driving them from 2 rooms away, they are being driven by a quality amplifier and pre-amp, using only 8foot speaker cables of thick gauge (instead of 50feet of zip cord) and quality ICs. The speakers are setup in a different spot and I removed an unused sub that was near the speakers.

Results? One wonderful sounding setup that I have about $2500 into that I have been enjoying more lately than my main setup that cost close to $20,000 back in the 90s.

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I would suspect(based on measurements and listening test) the movement of the speakers would have FAR more effect on your subjective opinion than changes in sources you put in front of them. Unless you parse the effect of every piece in the listening chain, you cannot know how they affect what you hear. Was it the wire, the amp, the preamp, or the changes on how the speakers are interacting with the room with their new placement? Objective science would lean towards the room more than anything else, and the speakers themselves coming in second.

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I still have the Groneberg cables between the OPPO and the Rotel driving my outdoor speakers and a cheap set of Polks in another room and I really don't think about or care if there is a sonic signature anymore. But I do know that because cables can and do cause differences in sound, I was able to make a setup sound better to me with the simple swapping of a set of ICs.

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Your statement here cannot be quantified by actual listening test. If we know we are changing cables, our minds can easily be fooled into detecting a difference - even if that difference is unmeasurable. In DB testing biases are removed, which makes it very difficult to tell any difference in cables. Since all humans move their heads slightly when listening to sources(which is known to have detectable differences in frequency response) can you really attribute a difference in the sound of different cables to the cable, or small changes second by second in head placement?

You cannot know this with subjective biases present.

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

Liking more bass is a subjective preference that should not be based on transfer devices(cables), but those devices that can be adjusted based on the recording itself. Using a IC as a tone control subjects all sources to the same treatment, which can make one piece of software sound right, and another sound overly heavy and veiled

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That is very much true as there is no two way about it. If one believe the positives of cable in their system, they should also believe the negative side effects of cable signature.

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Known how, by measurements or by subjective biased listening? Did you place your head in exactly the same place when changing these cables? Probably not. Ethan Winer was able to demonstrate that small changes in head placement relative to the sources(in this case speakers) in a non treated or under treated room can have a significant impact on what we hear. Moving our heads one inch can have a 6db impact on what we hear, as we move in and out of room modes and nodes. Unless you keep your head in exactly the same place each time you listen, what you hear may be different from one time to the next.

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I experience that every night :)

I have a clock radio that have a slight buzz about 4 feet from my head. When I sleep when the room is quiet, if I turn my head slightly to sides I can tone out the buzz or tone in the buzz depending on my head angle. That just show how our ears interact with its enviroment.

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Originally Posted by Smokey

Down side of taming a system's brightness with cables would be that now cables will add its own signature (toning down brightness) to the mix. Now any time you play a record or from source that is not not so bright, the cables will make it sound even darker. So by solving a system sonic problem with cable, you are creating another sonic problem :)

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Anyone can Copy-Paste, Paraphrase, or Plagiarize what they read on the internet, even if it was just said a few posts above. But at the end of the day, that's all you have. Until you tell us what you tried and with what gear, you have no real world first hand experience. Even if you did not hear anything different, at least you could say you tried. The only thing we know about your setup, is that you have tiny Athena speakers that cannot playback bass. I can only guess that you drive them with a mass market HT Receiver that barely resolves silence.

Part of the fun of this hobby is trying things for yourself. But for some, reading and using the Black & Reds that came with the Best Buy gear is good enough. That's just fine but regurgitating everything you read without ever actually doing any of it yourself gives one no credibility on the subject. Just says they can read and repost.

Let us debate the topic but do not bait an argument.

We really do not know each other's experience in this hobby. As far as cables go I have tried many brands both stranded and solid core in the under $400 range for speaker cables and $250 for a pair of IC's. Some have made my system sound brighter and some have rolled off the treble. If IC's can brighten a system or darken a system that sounds like a tone control to me.

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

Let us debate the topic but do not bait an argument.

We really do not know each other's experience in this hobby. As far as cables go I have tried many brands both stranded and solid core in the under $400 range for speaker cables and $250 for a pair of IC's. Some have made my system sound brighter and some have rolled off the treble. If IC's can brighten a system or darken a system that sounds like a tone control to me.

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If a IC is brightening or darkening the sound, it is defective PERIOD. An IC job is to transport a signal from one component to another - adding little to nothing of a sonic signature to the process as possible.

Also a tone controls are adjustable, not static like IC's. You can reduce the effect of a tone control, but you cannot do that to a IC. So in reality an IC is not a tone control, as it CONTROLS(key here) nothing.

JM, can you be positively sure that when auditioning these cables that you sat with your head exactly in the same place each time? I would think not. You may have sat in the same place, but your head was most likely not in the same place every single time. Even the smallest changes in head position can change the sound pretty drastically in a untreated or underdamped room. Ethan Winer demonstrated this, and I did this simple experiment in my music room. I removed all of the bass traps and the two acoustical panels in the room, set up 6 microphones and a dummy head with a multiplexer and a laptop with Audyssey Multi EQ PRO software. I measured six points in the room, and all of them had different measured results. I took the dummy head and put it in the primary listening seat. Measure that response, and then pushed the dummy head backwards only two inches. I got a completely different measured response. I then pushed it over to the left and right three inches. All of these points measured differently. This proves Ethan Winer is correct. Unless you measured where your head is every time you sit down, you are not likely to be in the same place every single time. Unless the IC is really in poor condition or very poorly made, you will not be able to compete with sonic signature of the room. IC sound signature differences are much too subtle.

When you make comparisons on IC's, you have to eliminate ALL variables than can exist or you don't know exactly what is affecting the sound. You have to analyze the effects(if any) in the entire signal chain. Keep this in mind, once you have sat in a particular position while listening to the sound, the impression of what it sounds like is established. Since you have introduced that bias on first impression, that bias will continue each time you try and evaluate that wire. This is why biases must be eliminated when evaluating any component. This is why sighted evaluations are pretty useless, and why DBT is so effective. Since you don't know what cable is being used, it is pretty difficult to pick out differences attributable to a specific IC. It is a fact that nobody has been to detect differences under DBT conditions, but can come to hard fast conclusions with sighted evaluations. The power of bias is undeniable.

When you actually have knowledge of something, there is no need to cut, paste, or plagiarize anything. If somebody is going to make this accusation, prove it. When you don't know much of anything, you just make things up in the vacuum of your own head. I trust my ears, but I also have to verify what I hear. Our ears can easily be fooled, and a simple test can verify this. I can record a simple C scale and play it back multiple times introducing extremely subtle pitch changes each time. Our ears will think it is hearing the same scale, but we have actually gone up a C# scale. I have fooled numerous folks with this test including musicians(though the ones with perfect pitch were not fooled).

Another example of bias is when somebody makes a comment, and somebody else deletes it for lacking(what they perceive) educational value. Then another person comes along and post a comment that also lacks educational value, and it is not deleted.

If a cable darkens or lighten the sound, that cable must be measured. If measurements don't show a gradual roll off in the bass or treble, then something else is going on. That something is usually what is most audible - the speaker/room interaction. If you just trust your ears, then your opinion is useless.

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

If you just trust your ears, then your opinion is useless.

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My ears are the only things I use to listen to music. I hear the changes. As far as opinions it is based on my experience. It is very insulting to say someone's opinion is useless. Oh and I am bored with your opinions.

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

My ears are the only things I use to listen to music.

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Now you are changing gears here. We are not talking about the music, we are talking about the IC's that transport that music from component to component. If it was about the music, then what wire you use wouldn't make a damn bit of difference. This is why music lovers(as opposed to audiophiles) can listen to music on a clock radio system. They love the music no matter what source it is coming from.

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I hear the changes.

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We all hear changes, that is not what we are debating here. What we are debating is what is causing the changes.

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As far as opinions it is based on my experience.

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And your experience and perspective are quite different than mine. I come from both a recording, listening, and measuring perspective. You come from a listener perspective only. I have both listened to IC's, and then measured them. You only listening them. If I find that I cannot quantify my listening to my measurements, then there is something else at play here. You don't go that far. This is why we don't see eye to eye on this subject.

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It is very insulting to say someone's opinion is useless.

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If a person cannot quantify their opinion with some facts, then that opinion is pretty useless to me. If an opinion is formed by myths and misinformation, then it is useless as well. I don't think that is insulting at all.

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Oh and I am bored with your opinions.

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Hmmmm, a note of hostility. At one time we got along so well........

Are you bored with my opinions, or are they just too complicated to grasp?

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

If a IC is brightening or darkening the sound, it is defective PERIOD. An IC job is to transport a signal from one component to another - adding little to nothing of a sonic signature to the process as possible.

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The exception would be cables that include a Zobel filter network. I believe examples includes made by MIT, Transparent, and Siltech. These are designed to modify the signal, and it shouldn't surprise that they will sound different from "straight wire".

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

Hmmmm, a note of hostility. At one time we got along so well........

Are you bored with my opinions, or are they just too complicated to grasp?

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Oh yes but you do wear people out being the audio bully. Oh and you are not too complicated to grasp since your opinions are not as important as my experiences.

This is much like the arguments between those who can hear differences in cables and those who cannot. An IC using solid core wire will sound different to one constructed of stranded wire. Both conduct the signal so neither is defective nor improperly designed. Of course if you are not able to hear the difference buy what you will. Some of us who are able to hear the difference spend time and money to find cables that best present the music to our ears. I often see posts on other sites where people are looking for lush sounding IC's and speaker cables. I wonder how so many cable manufactures can survive and have dedicated customers if they all sound the same?

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Originally Posted by Feanor

The exception would be cables that include a Zobel filter network. I believe examples includes made by MIT, Transparent, and Siltech. These are designed to modify the signal, and it shouldn't surprise that they will sound different from "straight wire".

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Actually those cables are not made to transparently transfer a signal from one component to another. They were made to sonically change the sound, and claim it is better than straight wire. Vinyl records are essentially the same in that regard.

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

Oh yes but you do wear people out being the audio bully.

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But can't it be said that you wear people out being the audio ignoramus?

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Oh and you are not too complicated to grasp since your opinions are not as important as my experiences.

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Apparently my opinions(which are based in facts science, AND experience) are too complicated for you since you are willing to trust your one dimensional experience against science based facts.

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

This is much like the arguments between those who can hear differences in cables and those who cannot.

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The problem here is that you have to prove those differences exist, not just say they do. Give me a measurement to collaborate what you hear, and I am sold. The placebo effect, and personal biases are too strong to take the word at face value.

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An IC using solid core wire will sound different to one constructed of stranded wire.

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The question here is can that difference be measured, or does it sound different because you think it does based on the different design? Please prove this point, or the comment is as irrelevant as subjective bias.

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Both conduct the signal so neither is defective nor improperly designed.

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I call BS on this statement. Both can be defective and/or improperly designed even if they are conducting the signal. I can conduct the signal, and damage and degrade it at the same time.

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Of course if you are not able to hear the difference buy what you will. Some of us who are able to hear the difference spend time and money to find cables that best present the music to our ears.

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I would offer that those who THINK they hear a difference cannot prove it with measurements or DBT. Sighted opinions are useless in evaluations because we can make ourselves believe just about anything. Remember, at one time people thought the world was flat. When people came along to challenge that opinion, and had facts to prove it, others wanted to shut them up, or they increased the signal(truth) to noise ratio(BS) to swamp the facts out.

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I often see posts on other sites where people are looking for lush sounding IC's and speaker cables.

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Those same folks are not looking for the "truth" or accuracy of the recording, they are euphoric listeners. They would rather "season" the truth(the recording itself) with too much salt and pepper - to the point they never know what the recording was actually supposed to sound like. They are usually trying to hide or counter deficiencies in other parts of their system.

I wonder how so many cable manufactures can survive and have dedicated customers if they all sound the same?[/QUOTE]

Maybe because there is a fool that believes in snake oil born every minute. Maybe it is because rather than testing the hype, people just believe it. Maybe it is because some people are more susceptible to suggestion, hype and marketing tricks, and others are "show me" people. I believe it is all of the above. It is easy to hypnotize a person who wants to be hypnotized than it is somebody who does not want to be.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

Anyone can Copy-Paste, Paraphrase, or Plagiarize what they read on the internet, even if it was just said a few posts above.

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So I guess nobody knew nothing before the Internet. May I remind you that there is such a thing as books :)

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Until you tell us what you tried and with what gear, you have no real world first hand experience.

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Cables are not as complicated as you make it out to be. They are most low tech and primitive part of a system, and easiest to figure out. The trick here is not pick a cable based on what gear you have. You pick a cable based on its quality regardless of system cost, and you don't need first world experience to pick a winner.

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

An IC using solid core wire will sound different to one constructed of stranded wire.

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Sorry JM, but have to agree with Sir TT that there are no facts to support that notion. Solidcore and stranded cable wires has been used interchangeably for last century with no noticable difference. So I would add "IMO" to that sentence :)

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I wonder how so many cable manufactures can survive and have dedicated customers if they all sound the same?

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Because customers pick cables based on sound rather than what the cable is actually doing.

For example, look at this cable manufacture Aural Thrills Audio where they make tube power IC:

Aural Thrills Audio Tube Powered Active 1m celebrating 10 years with Audiogon | Interconnects | Garland, Texas 75042 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community

Their IC design would not survive a minute in any other branchs of electronic for being too subseptible to noise. But in audio world I guess they are making money becuase they claim and I quote:

"This is among the world's finest cables! How can I make such a claim? One listen and you will know why". When "listen" appear in the description of cable, be wary :)

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Originally Posted by Smokey

Sorry JM, but have to agree with Sir TT that there are no facts to support that notion. Solidcore and stranded cable wires has been used interchangeably for last century with no noticable difference. So I would add "IMO" to that sentence :)



Because customers pick cables based on sound rather than what the cable is actually doing.

For example, look at this cable manufacture Aural Thrills Audio where they make tube power IC:

Aural Thrills Audio Tube Powered Active 1m celebrating 10 years with Audiogon | Interconnects | Garland, Texas 75042 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community

Their IC design would not survive a minute in any other branchs of electronic for being too subseptible to noise. But in audio world I guess they are making money becuase they claim and I quote:

"This is among the world's finest cables! How can I make such a claim? One listen and you will know why". When "listen" appear in the description of cable, be wary :)

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Again I say it depends on what you are able to hear. Solid core cables sound more focused to me. Stranded cables for lack of better description makes the imaging and sound fuzzy. I have no interest in convincing anyone about cables nor will my mind be changed by someone who is unable to hear the difference. I am only sharing what I hear and have experienced. As far as measurements are concerned not everything can be determined by testing. I read often about amps and speakers that while they measure poorly sound quite good to the reviewer. Zu loudspeaker come to mind. Their frequency response graphs look bad but many love them. Measure all you want I am too busy listening.

I use to be a skeptic about cables but have found that some do sound different. But not all cables sound different to me.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

I use to be a skeptic about cables but have found that some do sound different. But not all cables sound different to me.

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Well that there is real world first hand knowledge. Thanks for sharing. If others read the whole OP and then the last lines where I asked the question,

'Anyone here have a similar experience? Speaker cable or ICs?'

I don't recall asking if people believed one way or another, or could read white papers, books or other peoples posts and then repost what they have read. I asked who has experience altering the sound of their system by swapping cables. Good, Bad, or otherwise. I was looking for people who could say Yes I have tried it and A- For me, I noticed a difference, or B- For me I did not notice a difference.

Not sure why the thread got railroaded into a Naysayer Thread Crap.

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

Actually those cables {MIT, Transparent, and Siltech} are not made to transparently transfer a signal from one component to another. They were made to sonically change the sound, and claim it is better than straight wire. Vinyl records are essentially the same in that regard.

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At least these cable makers are forthright that their designs modify the signal although of course they all insist it's for the better.

It's been perfectly clear to me for long time that vinyl's virtue is to filter the sound in a pleasant manner. It's true, OTOH, that a well-mastered and pressed LP will sound better than a poorly mastered CD. I haven't bought an LP in almost 20 years but that's propably because there is virtually no selection on the medium for the classical music I mostly listen to.

I suspect it's the same sort euphonic preference that sustains the popularity of tube equipment.

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Originally Posted by Smokey

Solidcore and stranded cable wires has been used interchangeably for last century with no noticable difference.

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No noticeable difference to Who?

This part of the sentence I would say is true "Solidcore and stranded cable wires has been used interchangeably for last century" But then that begs the question, Are they both 100% the best selection for ALL Audio Applications?

Another statement that could be true is "Forks and Spoons have been used interchangeably since they were invented" True statement, and they both will get the food from your plate to your mouth. But are both the 100% best selection for all food?

One more, "Since HE Audio is such a small part of the overall market, there are more $1.99 Black & Reds used worldwide than any other IC" Most likely true, but is it the absolute 100% best selection for EVERY stereo out there?

Now back to Solid vs Stranded. Answer me this....If you are going to bi-wire a speaker, why do most EEs with Audio cabling and gear knowledge, suggest that you use a larger gauge solid core cable for the lows, and a lighter gauge stranded twisted pair for the highs?

And Copper vs Silver....Why do more than half of those who have actually tried Silver cabling claim that they prefer copper because the Silver made their system appear brighter than Copper did? Do you really think they all claim that because they read that someone else felt that way?

I frequent HE sites where acknowledging cable differences is the norm. I also frequent AK where 1970s Sansui Receivers are the norm with speaker cable connectors that consist of a screw for tiny bare wire is the norm. I continue to read about more and more individuals like yourself that go out and actually try something and then report back. Many of them are changing their minds as they get better and more resolving gear.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

'Anyone here have a similar experience? Speaker cable or ICs?'

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My experience with speaker cables is limited. I have BJC 10g wire and a pair of Monster Cable Z4's that retailed for $600. They are as thick as a garden hose. I paid $120 for them on an Ebay bid. I can't say that I can tell a difference. Same goes for an after market AQ power cord which came with my Music Hall CDP for free and it was supposed to improve the sound. Even the professional reviews of the MH with the Audio Quest cord said the upgraded cord improved the sound. I could not tell any difference between it and the stock cord.

I am not saying that speaker cables and power cords don't make a difference, but in my limited experience, they have not with one exception. When I first got my MMG speakers years ago, my 16g speaker wires were too short and all I had was 18 zip cord in the house. The MMG's sounded dreadful with the 18g wire so the next day I went out and bought some new heavy gauge wire and all was right.

Getting back to the original thread topic. I am happy with my choice of wires which seems to have helped give me the sound that I am looking for. The Cardas Parsecs are a smidgen warmer than the BJC's with a little better resolution and detail. My Silnote cables sound about the same as the BJC's, so they were a waste of money.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

I frequent HE sites where acknowledging cable differences is the norm. I also frequent AK where 1970s Sansui Receivers are the norm with speaker cable connectors that consist of a screw for tiny bare wire is the norm. I continue to read about more and more individuals like yourself that go out and actually try something and then report back. Many of them are changing their minds as they get better and more resolving gear.

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For the umteenth time, I'm NOT one of those people who insist the cables cannot make difference ...

Something I've learned in my 43 years as a hi-fi enthusiast is that random testimonials are useless. A person might be quite sincere, (most are), but people tend to hear what they want to hear and believe what they want to believe. Or differences might be due to things other than the actual component that is being audition, e.g. everything sounds less good to me when I'm tired or stressed.

Gross difference might cause people to change their minds, but in fact the differences among certain components is typically quite small, among cables and certain other things, e.g. vacuum tubes, opamps, and capacitors. From time to time I've thought I've heard differences among these things, BUT to be quite honest I wasn't entirely sure.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

For the umteenth time, I'm NOT one of those people who insist the cables cannot make difference ...

Something I've learned in my 43 years as a hi-fi enthusiast is that random testimonials are useless. A person might be quite sincere, (most are), but people tend to hear what they want to hear and believe what they want to believe. Or differences might be due to things other than the actual component that is being audition, e.g. everything sounds less good to me when I'm tired or stressed.

Gross difference might cause people to change their minds, but in fact the differences among certain components is typically quite small, among cables and certain other things, e.g. vacuum tubes, opamps, and capacitors. From time to time I've thought I've heard differences among these things, BUT to be quite honest I wasn't entirely sure.

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I know you are not a full blooded Naysayer and nothing was directed your way, but towards those who never try anything and then jump on the Naysayer Bandwagon.

Now as per the differences of Tubes being quite small, I have to totally disagree with that finding. Maybe you have not rolled enough tubes but I have found huge differences between tubes in my VAC pre amp and the input tubes of my Counterpoint Hybrid amp.

And differences, no matter how small or if they were positive or negative was all this thread was supposed to cover. Not anyone's specific belief systems.

Thanks for chiming back in on topic.

There can be vast differences in sound in tubes. All of my dozen or so pairs of 6CG7's and several 6DJ8 tubes sound vastly different.

Op amps also make a difference. I just rolled new op amps in my AVA DAC. I bought a pair of Sparko op amps to replace my BB 0627's and the sound was noticeably different. The BB 0627's were a previous recommended factory upgrade and mod over the standard ADL? Op amps that came with the original unit. The BB's made a huge difference at the time.

Here is my review of the Sparko op amps-

New Discrete Op Amps From Sparkos Labs

One of the points Adam was trying to make before he left was that your posts are more valuable when you have actually heard the products being discussed. Audio judgment by speculation does not help anyone. This happens mostly in cable discussions. If you have not heard a particular product you really have no opinion on it. You are only speculating.

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

One of the points Adam was trying to make before he left was that your posts are more valuable when you have actually heard the products being discussed. Audio judgment by speculation does not help anyone. This happens mostly in cable discussions. If you have not heard a particular product you really have no opinion on it. You are only speculating.

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Thank you!

That is exactly why I ended the original post with the following....

Anyone here have a similar experience? Speaker cable or ICs?

I do not recall asking the question "Do you believe from what you read somewhere whether cables sound different?" Or anything else that got this thread sidetracked. I asked for responses from those who actually tried something and had a personal opinion on what they tested, nothing else.

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

Again I say it depends on what you are able to hear. Solid core cables sound more focused to me. Stranded cables for lack of better description makes the imaging and sound fuzzy.

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Can you demonstrate this in a DBT test? Nobody has so far, and you would be considered a "golden eared" individual if you could guess which is a solid core and which is a stranded cable under non sighted conditions.

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I have no interest in convincing anyone about cables nor will my mind be changed by someone who is unable to hear the difference.

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How does one come to this conclusion without level matching your sources, eliminating the room signature, not eliminating background noise(most homes and apartments have loads of background noise), without analyzing the sources for their measured characteristics, and without having your hearing checked?

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I am only sharing what I hear and have experienced. As far as measurements are concerned not everything can be determined by testing.

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You are right. Only subjective sound quality cannot be tested because it is full of pre-set biases based on individual taste. Everything else CAN be measured, and that is why you have to trust your ears, but collaborate it with measurements.

People can say they hear any and everything, but the proof is in the measurements. Our ears are not foolproof, and if you understand how the ear/eye/brain mechanism works, you would know this. I was on a jury panel that heard a violent dispute between two parties. One witness said she heard two women yelling at each other, but unfortunately two men were on trial. There were no women involved at all. In experimenting with implementing one or two loudspeakers for my rear surrounds, I panned a signal all around the room to see which is smoother. My sons, my core of friends, audio mixers from the studio where I work all made spatial mistakes(as a result of HRT effects) when I panned a signal to a single rear speaker - they thought it was coming from the center speaker in the front. Ears fooled. I remember one audio friend of mine commenting on the air around instruments. The problem with this is his hearing petered out at 8khz. There no air there, just harmonics. Air in any recording or playback system lies above 10khz, so he could not possibly have heard it.

Cables are much like watches. There is no proof that an uber expensive watch keeps better time than a cheap one. Analog watches are no better than digital ones in this regard. The difference is subjective purpose. Do you want a watch that looks good, or one that just tells you the time. Cables are made to "faithfully" pass signals from one component to another. As long as they can do this job(ugly or fancy) there will be no audible differences between them(except what people invent in their heads).

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I read often about amps and speakers that while they measure poorly sound quite good to the reviewer. Zu loudspeaker come to mind. Their frequency response graphs look bad but many love them. Measure all you want I am too busy listening.

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Now you are skipping to something that is purely subjective. I have heard Zu speakers(I think it was their entire line spread over two rooms), and they sound like crap to me. Highly colored, far from accurate, shouty at peak volumes, and a little grainy. Some people like a euphoric listening experience, and some of us just want to clearly hear the music without all of the sonic interference.

I have been subscribing to Stereophile for more than 6 years now. I have not seen a cable reviewed in years. Why? I would imagine that their current policy of measuring everything they review would make it very difficult for a reviewer to collaborate the results of their opinion versus the measurements themselves. The last time I saw a cable test in their pages, all of the ten cables measured exactly the same(including the red and white Radio Shack cables) in the critical area our ears are most sensitive. Above and below that threshold it would be impossible for anyone to hear any differences because our ears gradually become less sensitive to frequency response deviations and amplitude. Oh, and let's not mention the masking of low level signal because the rooms high ambient levels.

There are far more deviances between the amp + speaker wire + speaker + room than there are in a pair of 3ft interconnects, and that is a fact.

This is not about what we are hearing, but about what some people are imaging in their heads(placebo folks).

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

One of the points Adam was trying to make before he left was that your posts are more valuable when you have actually heard the products being discussed. Audio judgment by speculation does not help anyone. This happens mostly in cable discussions. If you have not heard a particular product you really have no opinion on it. You are only speculating.

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The problem with this comment is we are not supposed to hear the cable, we are supposed to clearly and faithfully hear the music that passes through it.

So you cannot take Adam's comments out of context, he was speaking about sources, amps, and speakers, not cable. I read it myself.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

No noticeable difference to Who?

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To the people who are not led by the nose with marketing hype and snake oil. That is who.

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This part of the sentence I would say is true "Solidcore and stranded cable wires has been used interchangeably for last century" But then that begs the question, Are they both 100% the best selection for ALL Audio Applications?

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Just like there is no "best" water, there is no best cable. Either the cable can accurately transfer the signal, or it degrades it PERIOD. Water is made to hydrate the body, and even if it taste bad it will still hydrate the body. A well made wire regardless of cost will accurately transfer the signal without adding a single thing to it. A cheap watch can be just as accurate as an uber expensive one. A Honda Civic will get you from point A to point B just like a Mercedes will. And some are more vulnerable to the placebo effect than others.

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Another statement that could be true is "Forks and Spoons have been used interchangeably since they were invented" True statement, and they both will get the food from your plate to your mouth. But are both the 100% best selection for all food?

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LOLOLOLOL, now this is hilarious. What else are we going to use to get soup and food in our mouths - a pitchfork and a shovel? The spoon and the fork has one purpose with food....getting in our mouths. So are you going to tell me that my Gucci spoon will make my Gazpacho taste better than my generic spoon now?

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One more, "Since HE Audio is such a small part of the overall market, there are more $1.99 Black & Reds used worldwide than any other IC" Most likely true, but is it the absolute 100% best selection for EVERY stereo out there?

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As long as it can faithfully transfer the signal between components with little or no degradation...yes it is. Stereophile measurements showed a Radio Shack red and whites measure just the same as Kimber cables. Guess what, nobody could hear any difference between them in a DB test as well.

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Now back to Solid vs Stranded. Answer me this....If you are going to bi-wire a speaker, why do most EEs with Audio cabling and gear knowledge, suggest that you use a larger gauge solid core cable for the lows, and a lighter gauge stranded twisted pair for the highs?

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Because instead of just accurately reproducing the sound, they are trying to shape the sound. Fail. As long as the speaker wires are the same length, there is no difference. Nobody has been able to hear the difference between two identical length wire with difference gauges.

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And Copper vs Silver....Why do more than half of those who have actually tried Silver cabling claim that they prefer copper because the Silver made their system appear brighter than Copper did? Do you really think they all claim that because they read that someone else felt that way?

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A better explanation and one that is more plausible is they are not sitting exactly in the same spot(moving in and out of modes and nodes), and subjective sighted testing(which introduces pre-built in biases). If they could get the same result under DB testing, then they have won me over. Nobody has published a single DB test that concluded anyone could hear any difference between copper and silver. It all marketing hype, and you fell for it.

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I frequent HE sites where acknowledging cable differences is the norm. I also frequent AK where 1970s Sansui Receivers are the norm with speaker cable connectors that consist of a screw for tiny bare wire is the norm. I continue to read about more and more individuals like yourself that go out and actually try something and then report back. Many of them are changing their minds as they get better and more resolving gear.

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I have participated in 15 DB tests while attending AES. 3 of those tests were on IC, and another two were on speaker wire. Out of 1,000 people(that is how many they tested over 5 days), nobody was able to hear any differences between the 5 IC's, and only two people could hear differences between the speaker wire(all wires were well made. One of those two people who could hear differences in the speaker wire was me and I cheated. I could hear the comparator click when it changed between samples. I found out later the other guy could too.

Some people can be led by the nose by others so easily. I find no value in sitting in a room where everyone agrees with everyone else's subjective opinions.

Have you ever measured an IC? Nope. Until you do, and be able to correlate what you hear with that measurement, you are throwing a deliciously nutritious air sandwich on a plate and feeding it to us.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

At least these cable makers are forthright that their designs modify the signal although of course they all insist it's for the better.

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The funny thing is, almost all cable makers say their design makes the audio better. And when they suggest this to the public, some gullible people will actually believe them. We have seen examples of this right here.

A simple null test can tell you if there is any audible differences between IC. Simply put signal in opposite polarity going through each cable. If there is sound coming out, the cables are audibly different and measurements will tell where. If there is no sound at all, then there is no difference between the cables. I have done this test a least two dozen times. The only time I heard a difference between two IC was when one was WAY longer than the other. Signal losses based on distance is a well known phenom.

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

...
Cables are much like watches. There is no proof that an uber expensive watch keeps better time than a cheap one. Analog watches are no better than digital ones in this regard. The difference is subjective purpose. Do you want a watch that looks good, or one that just tells you the time. Cables are made to "faithfully" pass signals from one component to another. As long as they can do this job(ugly or fancy) there will be no audible differences between them(except what people invent in their heads). ...

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Yes, watches are more jewellery than anything else; beautiful to look at. Also beautifully made; admirable as piece of workmanship. But does the top-of-the-line Omega Co-Axial actually keep better time than my $50 Casio Wave Ceptor'? No, it does not.

The only person around hear who actually admitted that he kept some high-end cables around because they looked good and impressed people was your some-time member, Florian. Even with his ultra-resolving Apogee Grand system, he said he couldn't hear any real differences.