Using Cables as Tone Controls

[Hyfi]

I know why the system is bright, and you only theoretically would have done something differently.

I can't change much about the room. I have changed the whole setup of gear around since this thread started. The other thing you don't get, since you have no first hand real world experience, is that some people like more bass than others and if a cable tames a known bright speaker and I like it, you can throw all your non-tested theory out the window.

Sure I could have sold my speakers and bought different ones.
Sure, I could have given away a nice $800 receiver that I got for $100.
Sure, I could buy yet another good CD player instead of using my OPPO93 for both CD and Movie playback.

But I was able to solve my own problem by experimenting with a set of ICs that were sitting idle but known to be more on the bass side.

Since this thread was started, I took the JM Labs speakers out of the setup that I started talking about and now instead of a Receiver driving them from 2 rooms away, they are being driven by a quality amplifier and pre-amp, using only 8foot speaker cables of thick gauge (instead of 50feet of zip cord) and quality ICs. The speakers are setup in a different spot and I removed an unused sub that was near the speakers.

Results? One wonderful sounding setup that I have about $2500 into that I have been enjoying more lately than my main setup that cost close to $20,000 back in the 90s.

I still have the Groneberg cables between the OPPO and the Rotel driving my outdoor speakers and a cheap set of Polks in another room and I really don't think about or care if there is a sonic signature anymore. But I do know that because cables can and do cause differences in sound, I was able to make a setup sound better to me with the simple swapping of a set of ICs.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I know why the system is bright, and you only theoretically would have done something differently.

You cannot make such a statement unless you think exactly like Smoke. A person who does not think like I do, who does not have the same priorities as I do, cannot tell what I will do in any given situation.

I can't change much about the room. I have changed the whole setup of gear around since this thread started. The other thing you don't get, since you have no first hand real world experience, is that some people like more bass than others and if a cable tames a known bright speaker and I like it, you can throw all your non-tested theory out the window.

One can say your views theories are non-tested as well. Liking more bass is a subjective preference that should not be based on transfer devices(cables), but those devices that can be adjusted based on the recording itself. Using a IC as a tone control subjects all sources to the same treatment, which can make one piece of software sound right, and another sound overly heavy and veiled. A tone control is crude in its control of adjustments, and a EQ is much better.

Stereophile did some measurements on a wide variety of cables, and these test where published in a AES white paper in 2004. When it came to frequency response(how we perceive the amplitude of individual signal of various tones mashed together in time), this testing only noted variables in frequencies above 18khz, and near 25-20hz. The poorly made ones did alter the timbre and texture audibly, and the better made ones had no difference that would be audible. These measurements were done in a laboratory with no speakers involved. When these cables were used in actual systems in actual rooms, listeners were unable to detect any differences in DB testing. The acoustics of the room were swamping listeners ears ability to detect these minute differences. What does this tell us? That any differences between cables in sighted listening test introduced biases that are not born out with objective cable measurements. If you really want to hear what a cable is doing, then you have to damp and neutralize the effect of the speaker/room interaction. Anything less, is just sighted bias or the placebo effect.

Sure I could have sold my speakers and bought different ones.
Sure, I could have given away a nice $800 receiver that I got for $100.
Sure, I could buy yet another good CD player instead of using my OPPO93 for both CD and Movie playback.

Yes you could have made all of these changes, but they would not have the effect of just treating your rooms modes and nodes. This would be majoring in minors.

But I was able to solve my own problem by experimenting with a set of ICs that were sitting idle but known to be more on the bass side.

Known how, by measurements or by subjective biased listening? Did you place your head in exactly the same place when changing these cables? Probably not. Ethan Winer was able to demonstrate that small changes in head placement relative to the sources(in this case speakers) in a non treated or under treated room can have a significant impact on what we hear. Moving our heads one inch can have a 6db impact on what we hear, as we move in and out of room modes and nodes. Unless you keep your head in exactly the same place each time you listen, what you hear may be different from one time to the next. If a cable introduces a 6db difference in what you hear, then the cable is not suitable as a transfer device.

Since this thread was started, I took the JM Labs speakers out of the setup that I started talking about and now instead of a Receiver driving them from 2 rooms away, they are being driven by a quality amplifier and pre-amp, using only 8foot speaker cables of thick gauge (instead of 50feet of zip cord) and quality ICs. The speakers are setup in a different spot and I removed an unused sub that was near the speakers.

Results? One wonderful sounding setup that I have about $2500 into that I have been enjoying more lately than my main setup that cost close to $20,000 back in the 90s.

I would suspect(based on measurements and listening test) the movement of the speakers would have FAR more effect on your subjective opinion than changes in sources you put in front of them. Unless you parse the effect of every piece in the listening chain, you cannot know how they affect what you hear. Was it the wire, the amp, the preamp, or the changes on how the speakers are interacting with the room with their new placement? Objective science would lean towards the room more than anything else, and the speakers themselves coming in second.

I still have the Groneberg cables between the OPPO and the Rotel driving my outdoor speakers and a cheap set of Polks in another room and I really don't think about or care if there is a sonic signature anymore. But I do know that because cables can and do cause differences in sound, I was able to make a setup sound better to me with the simple swapping of a set of ICs.

Your statement here cannot be quantified by actual listening test. If we know we are changing cables, our minds can easily be fooled into detecting a difference - even if that difference is unmeasurable. In DB testing biases are removed, which makes it very difficult to tell any difference in cables. Since all humans move their heads slightly when listening to sources(which is known to have detectable differences in frequency response) can you really attribute a difference in the sound of different cables to the cable, or small changes second by second in head placement?

You cannot know this with subjective biases present.

[Smokey]

Liking more bass is a subjective preference that should not be based on transfer devices(cables), but those devices that can be adjusted based on the recording itself. Using a IC as a tone control subjects all sources to the same treatment, which can make one piece of software sound right, and another sound overly heavy and veiled

That is very much true as there is no two way about it. If one believe the positives of cable in their system, they should also believe the negative side effects of cable signature.

Known how, by measurements or by subjective biased listening? Did you place your head in exactly the same place when changing these cables? Probably not. Ethan Winer was able to demonstrate that small changes in head placement relative to the sources(in this case speakers) in a non treated or under treated room can have a significant impact on what we hear. Moving our heads one inch can have a 6db impact on what we hear, as we move in and out of room modes and nodes. Unless you keep your head in exactly the same place each time you listen, what you hear may be different from one time to the next.

I experience that every night

I have a clock radio that have a slight buzz about 4 feet from my head. When I sleep when the room is quiet, if I turn my head slightly to sides I can tone out the buzz or tone in the buzz depending on my head angle. That just show how our ears interact with its enviroment.