Using Cables as Tone Controls

[Hyfi]

Down side of taming a system's brightness with cables would be that now cables will add its own signature (toning down brightness) to the mix. Now any time you play a record or from source that is not not so bright, the cables will make it sound even darker. So by solving a system sonic problem with cable, you are creating another sonic problem

Anyone can Copy-Paste, Paraphrase, or Plagiarize what they read on the internet, even if it was just said a few posts above. But at the end of the day, that's all you have. Until you tell us what you tried and with what gear, you have no real world first hand experience. Even if you did not hear anything different, at least you could say you tried. The only thing we know about your setup, is that you have tiny Athena speakers that cannot playback bass. I can only guess that you drive them with a mass market HT Receiver that barely resolves silence.

Part of the fun of this hobby is trying things for yourself. But for some, reading and using the Black & Reds that came with the Best Buy gear is good enough. That's just fine but regurgitating everything you read without ever actually doing any of it yourself gives one no credibility on the subject. Just says they can read and repost.

[JohnMichael]

Let us debate the topic but do not bait an argument.

We really do not know each other's experience in this hobby. As far as cables go I have tried many brands both stranded and solid core in the under $400 range for speaker cables and $250 for a pair of IC's. Some have made my system sound brighter and some have rolled off the treble. If IC's can brighten a system or darken a system that sounds like a tone control to me.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Let us debate the topic but do not bait an argument.

We really do not know each other's experience in this hobby. As far as cables go I have tried many brands both stranded and solid core in the under $400 range for speaker cables and $250 for a pair of IC's. Some have made my system sound brighter and some have rolled off the treble. If IC's can brighten a system or darken a system that sounds like a tone control to me.

If a IC is brightening or darkening the sound, it is defective PERIOD. An IC job is to transport a signal from one component to another - adding little to nothing of a sonic signature to the process as possible.

Also a tone controls are adjustable, not static like IC's. You can reduce the effect of a tone control, but you cannot do that to a IC. So in reality an IC is not a tone control, as it CONTROLS(key here) nothing.

JM, can you be positively sure that when auditioning these cables that you sat with your head exactly in the same place each time? I would think not. You may have sat in the same place, but your head was most likely not in the same place every single time. Even the smallest changes in head position can change the sound pretty drastically in a untreated or underdamped room. Ethan Winer demonstrated this, and I did this simple experiment in my music room. I removed all of the bass traps and the two acoustical panels in the room, set up 6 microphones and a dummy head with a multiplexer and a laptop with Audyssey Multi EQ PRO software. I measured six points in the room, and all of them had different measured results. I took the dummy head and put it in the primary listening seat. Measure that response, and then pushed the dummy head backwards only two inches. I got a completely different measured response. I then pushed it over to the left and right three inches. All of these points measured differently. This proves Ethan Winer is correct. Unless you measured where your head is every time you sit down, you are not likely to be in the same place every single time. Unless the IC is really in poor condition or very poorly made, you will not be able to compete with sonic signature of the room. IC sound signature differences are much too subtle.

When you make comparisons on IC's, you have to eliminate ALL variables than can exist or you don't know exactly what is affecting the sound. You have to analyze the effects(if any) in the entire signal chain. Keep this in mind, once you have sat in a particular position while listening to the sound, the impression of what it sounds like is established. Since you have introduced that bias on first impression, that bias will continue each time you try and evaluate that wire. This is why biases must be eliminated when evaluating any component. This is why sighted evaluations are pretty useless, and why DBT is so effective. Since you don't know what cable is being used, it is pretty difficult to pick out differences attributable to a specific IC. It is a fact that nobody has been to detect differences under DBT conditions, but can come to hard fast conclusions with sighted evaluations. The power of bias is undeniable.

When you actually have knowledge of something, there is no need to cut, paste, or plagiarize anything. If somebody is going to make this accusation, prove it. When you don't know much of anything, you just make things up in the vacuum of your own head. I trust my ears, but I also have to verify what I hear. Our ears can easily be fooled, and a simple test can verify this. I can record a simple C scale and play it back multiple times introducing extremely subtle pitch changes each time. Our ears will think it is hearing the same scale, but we have actually gone up a C# scale. I have fooled numerous folks with this test including musicians(though the ones with perfect pitch were not fooled).

Another example of bias is when somebody makes a comment, and somebody else deletes it for lacking(what they perceive) educational value. Then another person comes along and post a comment that also lacks educational value, and it is not deleted.

If a cable darkens or lighten the sound, that cable must be measured. If measurements don't show a gradual roll off in the bass or treble, then something else is going on. That something is usually what is most audible - the speaker/room interaction. If you just trust your ears, then your opinion is useless.

[JohnMichael]

If you just trust your ears, then your opinion is useless.

My ears are the only things I use to listen to music. I hear the changes. As far as opinions it is based on my experience. It is very insulting to say someone's opinion is useless. Oh and I am bored with your opinions.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

My ears are the only things I use to listen to music.

Now you are changing gears here. We are not talking about the music, we are talking about the IC's that transport that music from component to component. If it was about the music, then what wire you use wouldn't make a damn bit of difference. This is why music lovers(as opposed to audiophiles) can listen to music on a clock radio system. They love the music no matter what source it is coming from.

I hear the changes.

We all hear changes, that is not what we are debating here. What we are debating is what is causing the changes.

As far as opinions it is based on my experience.

And your experience and perspective are quite different than mine. I come from both a recording, listening, and measuring perspective. You come from a listener perspective only. I have both listened to IC's, and then measured them. You only listening them. If I find that I cannot quantify my listening to my measurements, then there is something else at play here. You don't go that far. This is why we don't see eye to eye on this subject.

It is very insulting to say someone's opinion is useless.

If a person cannot quantify their opinion with some facts, then that opinion is pretty useless to me. If an opinion is formed by myths and misinformation, then it is useless as well. I don't think that is insulting at all.

Oh and I am bored with your opinions.

Hmmmm, a note of hostility. At one time we got along so well........

Are you bored with my opinions, or are they just too complicated to grasp?

[JohnMichael]

Hmmmm, a note of hostility. At one time we got along so well........

Are you bored with my opinions, or are they just too complicated to grasp?

Oh yes but you do wear people out being the audio bully. Oh and you are not too complicated to grasp since your opinions are not as important as my experiences.

[JohnMichael]

This is much like the arguments between those who can hear differences in cables and those who cannot. An IC using solid core wire will sound different to one constructed of stranded wire. Both conduct the signal so neither is defective nor improperly designed. Of course if you are not able to hear the difference buy what you will. Some of us who are able to hear the difference spend time and money to find cables that best present the music to our ears. I often see posts on other sites where people are looking for lush sounding IC's and speaker cables. I wonder how so many cable manufactures can survive and have dedicated customers if they all sound the same?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Oh yes but you do wear people out being the audio bully.

But can't it be said that you wear people out being the audio ignoramus?

Oh and you are not too complicated to grasp since your opinions are not as important as my experiences.

Apparently my opinions(which are based in facts science, AND experience) are too complicated for you since you are willing to trust your one dimensional experience against science based facts.

[Feanor]

If a IC is brightening or darkening the sound, it is defective PERIOD. An IC job is to transport a signal from one component to another - adding little to nothing of a sonic signature to the process as possible.

The exception would be cables that include a Zobel filter network. I believe examples includes made by MIT, Transparent, and Siltech. These are designed to modify the signal, and it shouldn't surprise that they will sound different from "straight wire".

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The exception would be cables that include a Zobel filter network. I believe examples includes made by MIT, Transparent, and Siltech. These are designed to modify the signal, and it shouldn't surprise that they will sound different from "straight wire".

Actually those cables are not made to transparently transfer a signal from one component to another. They were made to sonically change the sound, and claim it is better than straight wire. Vinyl records are essentially the same in that regard.

[Feanor]

Actually those cables {MIT, Transparent, and Siltech} are not made to transparently transfer a signal from one component to another. They were made to sonically change the sound, and claim it is better than straight wire. Vinyl records are essentially the same in that regard.

At least these cable makers are forthright that their designs modify the signal although of course they all insist it's for the better.

It's been perfectly clear to me for long time that vinyl's virtue is to filter the sound in a pleasant manner. It's true, OTOH, that a well-mastered and pressed LP will sound better than a poorly mastered CD. I haven't bought an LP in almost 20 years but that's propably because there is virtually no selection on the medium for the classical music I mostly listen to.

I suspect it's the same sort euphonic preference that sustains the popularity of tube equipment.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

At least these cable makers are forthright that their designs modify the signal although of course they all insist it's for the better.

The funny thing is, almost all cable makers say their design makes the audio better. And when they suggest this to the public, some gullible people will actually believe them. We have seen examples of this right here.

A simple null test can tell you if there is any audible differences between IC. Simply put signal in opposite polarity going through each cable. If there is sound coming out, the cables are audibly different and measurements will tell where. If there is no sound at all, then there is no difference between the cables. I have done this test a least two dozen times. The only time I heard a difference between two IC was when one was WAY longer than the other. Signal losses based on distance is a well known phenom.

[Smokey]

Anyone can Copy-Paste, Paraphrase, or Plagiarize what they read on the internet, even if it was just said a few posts above.

So I guess nobody knew nothing before the Internet. May I remind you that there is such a thing as books

Until you tell us what you tried and with what gear, you have no real world first hand experience.

Cables are not as complicated as you make it out to be. They are most low tech and primitive part of a system, and easiest to figure out. The trick here is not pick a cable based on what gear you have. You pick a cable based on its quality regardless of system cost, and you don't need first world experience to pick a winner.