Using Cables as Tone Controls

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

My ears are the only things I use to listen to music.

Now you are changing gears here. We are not talking about the music, we are talking about the IC's that transport that music from component to component. If it was about the music, then what wire you use wouldn't make a damn bit of difference. This is why music lovers(as opposed to audiophiles) can listen to music on a clock radio system. They love the music no matter what source it is coming from.

I hear the changes.

We all hear changes, that is not what we are debating here. What we are debating is what is causing the changes.

As far as opinions it is based on my experience.

And your experience and perspective are quite different than mine. I come from both a recording, listening, and measuring perspective. You come from a listener perspective only. I have both listened to IC's, and then measured them. You only listening them. If I find that I cannot quantify my listening to my measurements, then there is something else at play here. You don't go that far. This is why we don't see eye to eye on this subject.

It is very insulting to say someone's opinion is useless.

If a person cannot quantify their opinion with some facts, then that opinion is pretty useless to me. If an opinion is formed by myths and misinformation, then it is useless as well. I don't think that is insulting at all.

Oh and I am bored with your opinions.

Hmmmm, a note of hostility. At one time we got along so well........

Are you bored with my opinions, or are they just too complicated to grasp?

[JohnMichael]

Hmmmm, a note of hostility. At one time we got along so well........

Are you bored with my opinions, or are they just too complicated to grasp?

Oh yes but you do wear people out being the audio bully. Oh and you are not too complicated to grasp since your opinions are not as important as my experiences.

[JohnMichael]

This is much like the arguments between those who can hear differences in cables and those who cannot. An IC using solid core wire will sound different to one constructed of stranded wire. Both conduct the signal so neither is defective nor improperly designed. Of course if you are not able to hear the difference buy what you will. Some of us who are able to hear the difference spend time and money to find cables that best present the music to our ears. I often see posts on other sites where people are looking for lush sounding IC's and speaker cables. I wonder how so many cable manufactures can survive and have dedicated customers if they all sound the same?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

This is much like the arguments between those who can hear differences in cables and those who cannot.

The problem here is that you have to prove those differences exist, not just say they do. Give me a measurement to collaborate what you hear, and I am sold. The placebo effect, and personal biases are too strong to take the word at face value.

An IC using solid core wire will sound different to one constructed of stranded wire.

The question here is can that difference be measured, or does it sound different because you think it does based on the different design? Please prove this point, or the comment is as irrelevant as subjective bias.

Both conduct the signal so neither is defective nor improperly designed.

I call BS on this statement. Both can be defective and/or improperly designed even if they are conducting the signal. I can conduct the signal, and damage and degrade it at the same time.

Of course if you are not able to hear the difference buy what you will. Some of us who are able to hear the difference spend time and money to find cables that best present the music to our ears.

I would offer that those who THINK they hear a difference cannot prove it with measurements or DBT. Sighted opinions are useless in evaluations because we can make ourselves believe just about anything. Remember, at one time people thought the world was flat. When people came along to challenge that opinion, and had facts to prove it, others wanted to shut them up, or they increased the signal(truth) to noise ratio(BS) to swamp the facts out.

I often see posts on other sites where people are looking for lush sounding IC's and speaker cables.

Those same folks are not looking for the "truth" or accuracy of the recording, they are euphoric listeners. They would rather "season" the truth(the recording itself) with too much salt and pepper - to the point they never know what the recording was actually supposed to sound like. They are usually trying to hide or counter deficiencies in other parts of their system.

I wonder how so many cable manufactures can survive and have dedicated customers if they all sound the same?[/QUOTE]

Maybe because there is a fool that believes in snake oil born every minute. Maybe it is because rather than testing the hype, people just believe it. Maybe it is because some people are more susceptible to suggestion, hype and marketing tricks, and others are "show me" people. I believe it is all of the above. It is easy to hypnotize a person who wants to be hypnotized than it is somebody who does not want to be.

[Smokey]

An IC using solid core wire will sound different to one constructed of stranded wire.

Sorry JM, but have to agree with Sir TT that there are no facts to support that notion. Solidcore and stranded cable wires has been used interchangeably for last century with no noticable difference. So I would add "IMO" to that sentence

I wonder how so many cable manufactures can survive and have dedicated customers if they all sound the same?

Because customers pick cables based on sound rather than what the cable is actually doing.

For example, look at this cable manufacture Aural Thrills Audio where they make tube power IC:

Aural Thrills Audio Tube Powered Active 1m celebrating 10 years with Audiogon | Interconnects | Garland, Texas 75042 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community

Their IC design would not survive a minute in any other branchs of electronic for being too subseptible to noise. But in audio world I guess they are making money becuase they claim and I quote:

"This is among the world's finest cables! How can I make such a claim? One listen and you will know why". When "listen" appear in the description of cable, be wary

[JohnMichael]

Sorry JM, but have to agree with Sir TT that there are no facts to support that notion. Solidcore and stranded cable wires has been used interchangeably for last century with no noticable difference. So I would add "IMO" to that sentence



Because customers pick cables based on sound rather than what the cable is actually doing.

For example, look at this cable manufacture Aural Thrills Audio where they make tube power IC:

Aural Thrills Audio Tube Powered Active 1m celebrating 10 years with Audiogon | Interconnects | Garland, Texas 75042 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community

Their IC design would not survive a minute in any other branchs of electronic for being too subseptible to noise. But in audio world I guess they are making money becuase they claim and I quote:

"This is among the world's finest cables! How can I make such a claim? One listen and you will know why". When "listen" appear in the description of cable, be wary

Again I say it depends on what you are able to hear. Solid core cables sound more focused to me. Stranded cables for lack of better description makes the imaging and sound fuzzy. I have no interest in convincing anyone about cables nor will my mind be changed by someone who is unable to hear the difference. I am only sharing what I hear and have experienced. As far as measurements are concerned not everything can be determined by testing. I read often about amps and speakers that while they measure poorly sound quite good to the reviewer. Zu loudspeaker come to mind. Their frequency response graphs look bad but many love them. Measure all you want I am too busy listening.

[blackraven]

I use to be a skeptic about cables but have found that some do sound different. But not all cables sound different to me.

[Hyfi]

I use to be a skeptic about cables but have found that some do sound different. But not all cables sound different to me.

Well that there is real world first hand knowledge. Thanks for sharing. If others read the whole OP and then the last lines where I asked the question,

'Anyone here have a similar experience? Speaker cable or ICs?'

I don't recall asking if people believed one way or another, or could read white papers, books or other peoples posts and then repost what they have read. I asked who has experience altering the sound of their system by swapping cables. Good, Bad, or otherwise. I was looking for people who could say Yes I have tried it and A- For me, I noticed a difference, or B- For me I did not notice a difference.

Not sure why the thread got railroaded into a Naysayer Thread Crap.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Again I say it depends on what you are able to hear. Solid core cables sound more focused to me. Stranded cables for lack of better description makes the imaging and sound fuzzy.

Can you demonstrate this in a DBT test? Nobody has so far, and you would be considered a "golden eared" individual if you could guess which is a solid core and which is a stranded cable under non sighted conditions.

I have no interest in convincing anyone about cables nor will my mind be changed by someone who is unable to hear the difference.

How does one come to this conclusion without level matching your sources, eliminating the room signature, not eliminating background noise(most homes and apartments have loads of background noise), without analyzing the sources for their measured characteristics, and without having your hearing checked?

I am only sharing what I hear and have experienced. As far as measurements are concerned not everything can be determined by testing.

You are right. Only subjective sound quality cannot be tested because it is full of pre-set biases based on individual taste. Everything else CAN be measured, and that is why you have to trust your ears, but collaborate it with measurements.

People can say they hear any and everything, but the proof is in the measurements. Our ears are not foolproof, and if you understand how the ear/eye/brain mechanism works, you would know this. I was on a jury panel that heard a violent dispute between two parties. One witness said she heard two women yelling at each other, but unfortunately two men were on trial. There were no women involved at all. In experimenting with implementing one or two loudspeakers for my rear surrounds, I panned a signal all around the room to see which is smoother. My sons, my core of friends, audio mixers from the studio where I work all made spatial mistakes(as a result of HRT effects) when I panned a signal to a single rear speaker - they thought it was coming from the center speaker in the front. Ears fooled. I remember one audio friend of mine commenting on the air around instruments. The problem with this is his hearing petered out at 8khz. There no air there, just harmonics. Air in any recording or playback system lies above 10khz, so he could not possibly have heard it.

Cables are much like watches. There is no proof that an uber expensive watch keeps better time than a cheap one. Analog watches are no better than digital ones in this regard. The difference is subjective purpose. Do you want a watch that looks good, or one that just tells you the time. Cables are made to "faithfully" pass signals from one component to another. As long as they can do this job(ugly or fancy) there will be no audible differences between them(except what people invent in their heads).

I read often about amps and speakers that while they measure poorly sound quite good to the reviewer. Zu loudspeaker come to mind. Their frequency response graphs look bad but many love them. Measure all you want I am too busy listening.

Now you are skipping to something that is purely subjective. I have heard Zu speakers(I think it was their entire line spread over two rooms), and they sound like crap to me. Highly colored, far from accurate, shouty at peak volumes, and a little grainy. Some people like a euphoric listening experience, and some of us just want to clearly hear the music without all of the sonic interference.

I have been subscribing to Stereophile for more than 6 years now. I have not seen a cable reviewed in years. Why? I would imagine that their current policy of measuring everything they review would make it very difficult for a reviewer to collaborate the results of their opinion versus the measurements themselves. The last time I saw a cable test in their pages, all of the ten cables measured exactly the same(including the red and white Radio Shack cables) in the critical area our ears are most sensitive. Above and below that threshold it would be impossible for anyone to hear any differences because our ears gradually become less sensitive to frequency response deviations and amplitude. Oh, and let's not mention the masking of low level signal because the rooms high ambient levels.

There are far more deviances between the amp + speaker wire + speaker + room than there are in a pair of 3ft interconnects, and that is a fact.

This is not about what we are hearing, but about what some people are imaging in their heads(placebo folks).

[Feanor]

...
Cables are much like watches. There is no proof that an uber expensive watch keeps better time than a cheap one. Analog watches are no better than digital ones in this regard. The difference is subjective purpose. Do you want a watch that looks good, or one that just tells you the time. Cables are made to "faithfully" pass signals from one component to another. As long as they can do this job(ugly or fancy) there will be no audible differences between them(except what people invent in their heads). ...

Yes, watches are more jewellery than anything else; beautiful to look at. Also beautifully made; admirable as piece of workmanship. But does the top-of-the-line Omega Co-Axial actually keep better time than my $50 Casio Wave Ceptor'? No, it does not.

The only person around hear who actually admitted that he kept some high-end cables around because they looked good and impressed people was your some-time member, Florian. Even with his ultra-resolving Apogee Grand system, he said he couldn't hear any real differences.

[Hyfi]

Solidcore and stranded cable wires has been used interchangeably for last century with no noticable difference.

No noticeable difference to Who?

This part of the sentence I would say is true "Solidcore and stranded cable wires has been used interchangeably for last century" But then that begs the question, Are they both 100% the best selection for ALL Audio Applications?

Another statement that could be true is "Forks and Spoons have been used interchangeably since they were invented" True statement, and they both will get the food from your plate to your mouth. But are both the 100% best selection for all food?

One more, "Since HE Audio is such a small part of the overall market, there are more $1.99 Black & Reds used worldwide than any other IC" Most likely true, but is it the absolute 100% best selection for EVERY stereo out there?

Now back to Solid vs Stranded. Answer me this....If you are going to bi-wire a speaker, why do most EEs with Audio cabling and gear knowledge, suggest that you use a larger gauge solid core cable for the lows, and a lighter gauge stranded twisted pair for the highs?

And Copper vs Silver....Why do more than half of those who have actually tried Silver cabling claim that they prefer copper because the Silver made their system appear brighter than Copper did? Do you really think they all claim that because they read that someone else felt that way?

I frequent HE sites where acknowledging cable differences is the norm. I also frequent AK where 1970s Sansui Receivers are the norm with speaker cable connectors that consist of a screw for tiny bare wire is the norm. I continue to read about more and more individuals like yourself that go out and actually try something and then report back. Many of them are changing their minds as they get better and more resolving gear.

[Feanor]

I frequent HE sites where acknowledging cable differences is the norm. I also frequent AK where 1970s Sansui Receivers are the norm with speaker cable connectors that consist of a screw for tiny bare wire is the norm. I continue to read about more and more individuals like yourself that go out and actually try something and then report back. Many of them are changing their minds as they get better and more resolving gear.

For the umteenth time, I'm NOT one of those people who insist the cables cannot make difference ...

Something I've learned in my 43 years as a hi-fi enthusiast is that random testimonials are useless. A person might be quite sincere, (most are), but people tend to hear what they want to hear and believe what they want to believe. Or differences might be due to things other than the actual component that is being audition, e.g. everything sounds less good to me when I'm tired or stressed.

Gross difference might cause people to change their minds, but in fact the differences among certain components is typically quite small, among cables and certain other things, e.g. vacuum tubes, opamps, and capacitors. From time to time I've thought I've heard differences among these things, BUT to be quite honest I wasn't entirely sure.

[Hyfi]

For the umteenth time, I'm NOT one of those people who insist the cables cannot make difference ...

Something I've learned in my 43 years as a hi-fi enthusiast is that random testimonials are useless. A person might be quite sincere, (most are), but people tend to hear what they want to hear and believe what they want to believe. Or differences might be due to things other than the actual component that is being audition, e.g. everything sounds less good to me when I'm tired or stressed.

Gross difference might cause people to change their minds, but in fact the differences among certain components is typically quite small, among cables and certain other things, e.g. vacuum tubes, opamps, and capacitors. From time to time I've thought I've heard differences among these things, BUT to be quite honest I wasn't entirely sure.

I know you are not a full blooded Naysayer and nothing was directed your way, but towards those who never try anything and then jump on the Naysayer Bandwagon.

Now as per the differences of Tubes being quite small, I have to totally disagree with that finding. Maybe you have not rolled enough tubes but I have found huge differences between tubes in my VAC pre amp and the input tubes of my Counterpoint Hybrid amp.

And differences, no matter how small or if they were positive or negative was all this thread was supposed to cover. Not anyone's specific belief systems.

Thanks for chiming back in on topic.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

No noticeable difference to Who?

To the people who are not led by the nose with marketing hype and snake oil. That is who.

This part of the sentence I would say is true "Solidcore and stranded cable wires has been used interchangeably for last century" But then that begs the question, Are they both 100% the best selection for ALL Audio Applications?

Just like there is no "best" water, there is no best cable. Either the cable can accurately transfer the signal, or it degrades it PERIOD. Water is made to hydrate the body, and even if it taste bad it will still hydrate the body. A well made wire regardless of cost will accurately transfer the signal without adding a single thing to it. A cheap watch can be just as accurate as an uber expensive one. A Honda Civic will get you from point A to point B just like a Mercedes will. And some are more vulnerable to the placebo effect than others.

Another statement that could be true is "Forks and Spoons have been used interchangeably since they were invented" True statement, and they both will get the food from your plate to your mouth. But are both the 100% best selection for all food?

LOLOLOLOL, now this is hilarious. What else are we going to use to get soup and food in our mouths - a pitchfork and a shovel? The spoon and the fork has one purpose with food....getting in our mouths. So are you going to tell me that my Gucci spoon will make my Gazpacho taste better than my generic spoon now?

One more, "Since HE Audio is such a small part of the overall market, there are more $1.99 Black & Reds used worldwide than any other IC" Most likely true, but is it the absolute 100% best selection for EVERY stereo out there?

As long as it can faithfully transfer the signal between components with little or no degradation...yes it is. Stereophile measurements showed a Radio Shack red and whites measure just the same as Kimber cables. Guess what, nobody could hear any difference between them in a DB test as well.

Now back to Solid vs Stranded. Answer me this....If you are going to bi-wire a speaker, why do most EEs with Audio cabling and gear knowledge, suggest that you use a larger gauge solid core cable for the lows, and a lighter gauge stranded twisted pair for the highs?

Because instead of just accurately reproducing the sound, they are trying to shape the sound. Fail. As long as the speaker wires are the same length, there is no difference. Nobody has been able to hear the difference between two identical length wire with difference gauges.

And Copper vs Silver....Why do more than half of those who have actually tried Silver cabling claim that they prefer copper because the Silver made their system appear brighter than Copper did? Do you really think they all claim that because they read that someone else felt that way?

A better explanation and one that is more plausible is they are not sitting exactly in the same spot(moving in and out of modes and nodes), and subjective sighted testing(which introduces pre-built in biases). If they could get the same result under DB testing, then they have won me over. Nobody has published a single DB test that concluded anyone could hear any difference between copper and silver. It all marketing hype, and you fell for it.

I frequent HE sites where acknowledging cable differences is the norm. I also frequent AK where 1970s Sansui Receivers are the norm with speaker cable connectors that consist of a screw for tiny bare wire is the norm. I continue to read about more and more individuals like yourself that go out and actually try something and then report back. Many of them are changing their minds as they get better and more resolving gear.

I have participated in 15 DB tests while attending AES. 3 of those tests were on IC, and another two were on speaker wire. Out of 1,000 people(that is how many they tested over 5 days), nobody was able to hear any differences between the 5 IC's, and only two people could hear differences between the speaker wire(all wires were well made. One of those two people who could hear differences in the speaker wire was me and I cheated. I could hear the comparator click when it changed between samples. I found out later the other guy could too.

Some people can be led by the nose by others so easily. I find no value in sitting in a room where everyone agrees with everyone else's subjective opinions.

Have you ever measured an IC? Nope. Until you do, and be able to correlate what you hear with that measurement, you are throwing a deliciously nutritious air sandwich on a plate and feeding it to us.

[Smokey]

This part of the sentence I would say is true "Solidcore and stranded cable wires has been used interchangeably for last century" But then that begs the question, Are they both 100% the best selection for ALL Audio Applications?

If you think about it, the argument of stranded vs solidcore goes way back and was more based on theory than 'known' facts. The argument against stranded was that due to its stranded form, electrons tend to jump from one strand to another as they are flowing from negateive to positive side.

The audiophiles argued that electron's jump will create noise in stranded, so they prefer solidcore for that reason. Of course that argument only exist in theory since no confirmations has been made for stranded conductor drawbacks.

One more, "Since HE Audio is such a small part of the overall market, there are more $1.99 Black & Reds used worldwide than any other IC" Most likely true, but is it the absolute 100% best selection for EVERY stereo out there?

Definitely not. I seen some of those Black&Reds that comes with components, and should be thrown in the garbage

Now back to Solid vs Stranded. Answer me this....If you are going to bi-wire a speaker, why do most EEs with Audio cabling and gear knowledge, suggest that you use a larger gauge solid core cable for the lows, and a lighter gauge stranded twisted pair for the highs?

That got nothing to do with stranded vs solid core. It got to do with gauage of cable and phenomena known as Skin Effect.

This topic can get rather complicated but simply it mean that lower frequecy will see less DC resistance in the wire than higher audio frequency. By increasing the guage for highs, we even out wire resistence high frequency see vs lower frequency. So both high and low frequecys see the same DC resistance in the wire.

Of course as I said, above explanation is in its simplest form.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Oh yes but you do wear people out being the audio bully.

But can't it be said that you wear people out being the audio ignoramus?

Oh and you are not too complicated to grasp since your opinions are not as important as my experiences.

Apparently my opinions(which are based in facts science, AND experience) are too complicated for you since you are willing to trust your one dimensional experience against science based facts.