do speaker cables make a difference???

[pctower]

That is fine. But then he needs to stop claiming what he cannot support when taken to task for testable claims. If he enjoys his singular reality, that is his business. He cannot expect it to have meaning for anyone else. It doesn't and cannot.

"If he enjoys his singular reality, that is his business."

Singular reality? He sure must be rich and spending a ton of money to keep all those cable companies in business all by himself.

[Resident Loser]

...surely you've been around long enough to understand what is meant by "singular reality"...

jimHJJ(...at least in this context...)

[E-Stat]

Tom Nousaine did such a test in Florida about 1998. A golden ear, his golden ear wife and friend could not differentiate the two amps

You prove me right every time, buddy. I'll ask again. Do you have any details of the test? Other gear, double runs of what cable attached to switch box, program material, etc.?

But, now that I remember the other amp was a Pass Alphen.

There is no such thing as a Pass Alphen.

rw

[Resident Loser]

...well, given mtrys unique style of spelling and grammar one could say YOU are wrong...try "Pass Aleph" discontinued in January of 2000...

jimHJJ(...trick or trout...)

[E-Stat]

...well, given mtrys unique style of spelling and grammar one could say YOU are wrong...try "Pass Aleph" discontinued in January of 2000...

jimHJJ(...trick or trout...)

Already have. Look at my original correction in post 58 and his having quoted the content in 75. Given his profoundly poor short term memory and lack of attention to detail, I have no doubt whatsoever that he is utterly incapable of discerning fine differences among components.

rw

[WmAx]

I believe this is the infamous ABX test too which mtrycrafts is referring:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...net%26rnum%3D1

-Chris

You prove me right every time, buddy. I'll ask again. Do you have any details of the test? Other gear, double runs of what cable attached to switch box, program material, etc.?


There is no such thing as a Pass Alphen.

rw

[E-Stat]

I believe this is the infamous ABX test too which mtrycrafts is referring:

Thanks, Chris! Your link (and a killer one at that when you do a reply) provided exactly the kind of documentation lacking in most reports.

Unfortunately, I am completely unfamiliar with all of those components, so I cannot comment on them. I do have a much earlier Nelson Pass design, the Threshold Stasis 3. Chauk one up for the "most amps sound alike" crowd.

rw

[pctower]

...surely you've been around long enough to understand what is meant by "singular reality"...

jimHJJ(...at least in this context...)

I've been around to know that cheap shots are the order of the day on this board. I'm just gettin' with the program here.

[Resident Loser]

...Einstein was dyslexic...so your point is? Ones' penchant or proclivity for typos, etc. somehow invalidates the message?

I am one of the first to point out the "consider the source" scenario. To me, spelling and grammar are quite important in how one presents themselves in this anonymous bit of fol-de-rol...but that's just me. I see politicians, newscasters, "celebrities" and the like, run rampant over proper usage...and no, that doesn't make it right, it is unfortunately becoming the norm. So again, what is your point?

That fact notwithstanding, the content is what really matters...having been witness to the goings-on here for years, all I've ever seen mtry do, is attempt to get folks to realize how fallible they are. To support his premise, and unlike some, he doesn't need to pull out a laundry list of gear and post it as though it were some sort of gold star or a measure of his understanding of the issue. Few actually understand what the issue actually is.

With regard to your "corrections/addendums" re: the Pass amp...mea culpa! My cursory interest in the shennanigans here and about, limits the "depth" of my investigations into this shallow pool.

jimHJJ(...I never expect anyone to think as I do...simply to think...)

[996turbo]

...Einstein was dyslexic...so your point is?

I am one of the first to point out the "consider the source" scenario. To me, spelling and grammar are quite important in how one presents themselves in this anonymous bit of fol-de-rol...but that's just me. I see politicians, newscasters, "celebrities" and the like, run rampant over proper usage...again, what is your point?

That fact notwithstanding, the content is what really matters...having been witness to the goings-on here for years, all I've ever seen mtry do, is attempt to get folks to realize how fallible they are. To suppoor his premise, and unlike some, he doesn't need to pull out a laundry list of gear and post it as though it were some sort of gold star or a measure of his understanding of the issue. Few actually understand what the issue actually is.

With regard to your "corrections/addendums" re: the Pass amp...mea culpa! My cursory interest in the shennanigans here and about, limits the "depth" of my investigations into this shallow pool.

jimHJJ(...I never expect anyone to think as I do...simply to think...)

I understand that he feels that the differences we hear are from psycholgical desires. He also believes that if a component is properly designed it will sound like another. I and many others just feel he is wrong. I have not spent half my life researching it or gathering scientific data. I do not have a plethora of data to prove my point. I only have the experiences have in my life to go on. I do not think we have reached perfection in engineering in any aspect of our lived including audio. This is where his argument falls apart. I guess that if we reached perfection in electrical design all perfect gear would sound the same. I do not believe this has been obtained and that is why the differences occur. I believe that science has yet to progress to the level that we have achieved perfection. The guys on the fringe of engineering making the hot rods in audio ,cars computers or whatever are the pioneers. Their productsare different from the mass market stuff. They charge alot more for the improvements they achieved. But next year their achievements will me common place and they will push the boundries further.

To assume that we are at the pinnacle is just plain rediculous.

[Resident Loser]

I've been around to know that cheap shots are the order of the day on this board. I'm just gettin' with the program here.

"cheap shots"...musta missed it...certainly not the use of the phrase "singular reality"...

BTW, there's a "moron" who at last count, awaits a reply...

jimHJJ(...hhmmmm...)

[Resident Loser]

"...I understand that he feels that the differences we hear are from psycholgical desires..."

That's a part of it, as I see it...

"...He also believes that if a component is properly designed it will sound like another..."

Which begs the question: Why shouldn't they? Where does hi-fi end and sounding different, just to be different, begin?

"...I and many others just feel he is wrong. I have not spent half my life researching it or gathering scientific data. I do not have a plethora of data to prove my point..."

Therefore, as it is really speculation based on anecdotal info, it would seem to be subject to the very things mtry points out...

"...I only have the experiences have in my life to go on..."

I prefer salami when it's thinly sliced on a bias, as opposed to perpendicular to it's axis...same sausage, different presentation...it's my bias which flies in the face of all logic...

"...I do not think we have reached perfection in engineering in any aspect of our lived including audio. This is where his argument falls apart..."

Never seen THAT argument made...

"...I guess that if we reached perfection in electrical design all perfect gear would sound the same. I do not believe this has been obtained and that is why the differences occur..."

Where is there perfection? Certainly not in the recording stage. With varying trechniques and styles, who can actually say this or that is perfect. There's "live" with one of the plethora of miking techniques, multi-tracking where the "air", "width" and "depth" are artificially produced or any combination thereof. What good is tweaking the gear to reproduce something that itself may or may not be real?

"...I believe that science has yet to progress to the level that we have achieved perfection. The guys on the fringe of engineering making the hot rods in audio ,cars computers or whatever are the pioneers..."

Insofar as installing a hotter cam, or increasing displacement or adding a little NO2, these are all MEASURABLE... as is the speed, resolution or whatever in PCland...Audio? show me the numbers...very bad analogy if you think about it...

"...Their products are different from the mass market stuff..."

"Different" OK, maybe...improvement? Both debateable...especially w/o and hard data to back it up...

"...They charge alot more for the improvements they achieved..."

Yep, there's super OFC, single-crystal wire and Wonder-caps and cryogenically treated gilhoolies...all the hot-button bells and whistles...Howzabout the laser-etched faceplates and torx-head fasteners and the...this is the stuff dreams are made of...

"...But next year their achievements will me common place and they will push the boundries further...

Like raising the peak powerband to 6000rpm and grenading the engine that much sooner...that kind of thing? In audio, the limiting factor is the source...if it ain't there, it ain't nowhere...that's the boundary...

"...To assume that we are at the pinnacle is just plain rediculous..."

Given the true state of the art, its all grasping at straws in the search for the Grail...

jimHJJ(...as most eventually see...)

[pctower]

"cheap shots"...musta missed it...certainly not the use of the phrase "singular reality"...

BTW, there's a "moron" who at last count, awaits a reply...

jimHJJ(...hhmmmm...)

I suspect that I must have used the term "moron" in some post to which you responded and to which I owe a reply, but my memory with respect to posts is no better than my sound comparison memory so I'm in the dark.

[Monstrous Mike]

To assume that we are at the pinnacle is just plain rediculous.

Why would you say this? I assume it is in relation to cable pioneering acheivements since that is what we are talking about.

Is it really ridiculous that there is nothing more to be gained sonically from cables? Do you have any examples where you feel progress limits have been reached or do you believe we can improve upon every single thing?

Personally, I can think of several examples where we have tried to push "boundaries" of design or whatnot and have produced something less than before. Could you see that happening to cables?

And finally, let's look at where real scientific pioneering takes place. One great source is the educational system. The professors and researchers who are either working on doctorates in engineering or have them already produce the most cutting edge research that I know of. In some circumstances, large corporations do this as well. Having been exposed to this environment, and working in it, I find it strange that cable research is completely absent. There are thousands upon thousands of engineering journals filled with all imaginable topics, yet not a single cable thesis that I could find.

It seems that the only pioneering done for cabling is done by cable retailers and they don't publish any findings or test results and usually don't even manufacture their cables themselves. So either this cable industry is truly unique and secretive, or it all a bunch of fluff.

[Bjorn]

God love people and the web! Two extremes, each shouting past the other, each carrying on a glorious tradition that now spans decades:

"As far as i am concerned, i am 110% sure that speaker cables DO make a difference."
_____________________

"So the great cable farce goes on."
_____________________

Only now the whole world gets to "enjoy" this perpetual shouting match.

Is there anyone out there who just buys things because of the enjoyment he derives from his purchases (or lack thereof) and doesn't need every other human being to act and believe exactly as he does?

I guess we'd never run across such a person on the Internet. He'd be too busy listening to and enjoying his system to waste his and everyone else's time.

BTW, does all this "hot air" contribute to global warming?

Here's one guy that has heard some differences between cables, likes trying them out while enjoying music. Just bought a new set of cables to try and just going to spend some hours listening now, instead of posting really long posts But I know there's difference between cables.. Used to be cynic bout cables, but not anymore...

I

[Norm Strong]

One of the articles was a translation of the original Swedish. One of the sentences used the expression "in plain English". My question is: Do the Swedes emphasize things by saying "in plain English", or do they say "in plain Swedish?"

[Norm Strong]

No, speculation comes from lack of direct experience. Actually, I just enjoy hearing all that expensive gear available to my reviewer friends. I bought my preamp used for a third of it's retail value.

rw

I think you mean, "a third of its retail PRICE"

[Beckman]

But I know there's difference between cables..
I

Anything other than 12 AWG zip cord can only degrade the signal to make it sound different. In addition, any cable that does sound different can be duplicated with 12 AWG zip cord and inductors/capacitors so why spend the money?

[Thomas_A]

Norm Strong,

we say "på ren Svenska" in Swedish, i.e. "in plain Swedish".

T

[E-Stat]

Anything other than 12 AWG zip cord can only degrade the signal to make it sound different. In addition, any cable that does sound different can be duplicated with 12 AWG zip cord and inductors/capacitors so why spend the money?

May you enjoy your zip.


rw

[f155mph]

I was just reading the post and I can't help myself to make a post here. This topic is a total waste of time and everyone here is acting silly. There will be no end to this argument. Think about it, it doesn't matter what that other person prefer because you'll never hear what that person is hearing. Everyone hears and perceive things in a different way so if someone thinks that the cable made a difference then it did for that person. So if someone want to spend $2000 on a pair of cable then let them. Heck I say more power to them since they are helping to feed someone's family. This is a free country, if company like Halliburton can waste millions of tax payer money, then why can't we waste our own money without getting crucify. I admit I had a pair of $1600 speaker cables before and I did a comparison between my $.68/ft Canare 4S11 and you know what I did hear some differences. But did the differences justify the cost, NO. So I returned it and kept the Canare. If I had the extra money would I have kept the expensive cable, probably yes. Why? Because they are well made and look damn nice. Seriously folks if you are really into hi-end audio, you are not only buying the stuff for the sound, but also for the look and pride of owning that piece of equipment. This is the same reason why people are willing to spend $150 for a pair of Nike when they can get a normal pair of tennis shoe for half the price. It is also why women like to have LV and Hermes purses when a cheap purse from Wal-mart does the same thing. The same reason why people who have money drives BMW, Lexus, Bentley, Rolls Royce, and other expensive automobiles. My point is that it doesn't matter what the other guys thinks as long as you are satisfy and happy with what you got. Everyone value things a little differently. For example the wife or girlfriend might think that spending $1000 on a receiver is a waste of money, but at the same time she thinks it is ok to spend $1500 on a pair of diamond ear rings. The benefit gained from buying the receiver for you have a higher benefit to cost ratio then compare to the wife or girlfriend. The same is true the other way around. Simply put there is no scientific way to measure happiness and everyone utilty level is not the same even when comparing the same goods. So folks, stop getting upset at each other and just enjoy the music.

[996turbo]

I could not agree with what you said more.

[mtrycraft]

There will be no end to this argument.


That we can agree about. Neither will there be an end to the discussion of creation or intelligent design, right?

Think about it, it doesn't matter what that other person prefer because you'll never hear what that person is hearing.

Ah, now you are confusing a preference to what one hears? I doubt it is the same, right?
Hearing can be tested. Preferences most likely not as many aspects makes up a preference and in hearing, only the sound is involved, right?

Everyone hears and perceive things in a different way

Everyone perceives differently. Hopefully we all hear the same way though. There is a difference between hearing and perceiving.


so if someone thinks that the cable made a difference then it did for that person.

A sibgular reality?


So if someone want to spend $2000 on a pair of cable then let them.

Who is stopping him?

Heck I say more power to them since they are helping to feed someone's family.

Yes, one way to look at it. But, perhaps it is a family that doesn't need more feeding, the owner of the company?

This is a free country,

So far it is, to a limit.

then why can't we waste our own money without getting crucify.

No one is crucified. Many are questiond though when certain claims are made. As was Halliburton is questioned and will be required to repay.


I admit I had a pair of $1600 speaker cables before and I did a comparison between my $.68/ft Canare 4S11 and you know what I did hear some differences.

I think you perceived something. What, is the real question that can be tested.

If I had the extra money would I have kept the expensive cable, probably yes. Why? Because they are well made and look damn nice.

That is a valid issue of a preferred cable, yes by all means.

Seriously folks if you are really into hi-end audio, you are not only buying the stuff for the sound, but also for the look and pride of owning that piece of equipment.

Ah, you raise two issues here: sound quality and the rest. Sound quality can be tested. The rest, cannot.

[Peter_Klim]

I'm going to end this argument once and for all:

WHO CARES!!!

If you hear a difference or not, why try to convince someone otherwise?

Let's talk about something else: I believe in Jesus...

[Peter_Klim]

I'm going to end this argument once and for all:

WHO CARES!!!

If you hear a difference or not, why try to convince someone otherwise?

Let's talk about something else: I believe in Jesus...

WOW!! I stopped reading this thread after the 1st page and not until after posting my last post did I read the one before mine. I totally agree with you!