do speaker cables make a difference???

[E-Stat]

Anything other than 12 AWG zip cord can only degrade the signal to make it sound different. In addition, any cable that does sound different can be duplicated with 12 AWG zip cord and inductors/capacitors so why spend the money?

May you enjoy your zip.


rw

[Resident Loser]

...I've tried not using wires and the results were quite disappointing...

Question: Anybody know the difference between wire and cable?

Didn't think so...

A local stereo/HT retailer/system installer, with many locations and many years in business, no longer sells Tara et al...they sell and use Monster exclusively...they used to sell 'em...seems curious to me...

Contrary to the popular myth propagated by some re: the quality level of any given system required to realize any benefit from use of the more esoteric wiring, Monster(in it's literature) says "...smaller speakers and lower power amplifiers..." will see significant improvement...hmmm...curiouser and curiouser...

"...110%..."? Not much diff, statistically...and how did you arrive at this number? Slightly wider sound stage? Ten percent more "inner details"? Grand piano sound like it had 8.8 more keys? Could be mood, volume levels, that extra glass of wine...the girlfriend? Have you ever been told what the other person thought you wanted to hear?

jimHJJ(...more importantly, have you ever told yourself what you wanted to hear?...)

[f155mph]

I was just reading the post and I can't help myself to make a post here. This topic is a total waste of time and everyone here is acting silly. There will be no end to this argument. Think about it, it doesn't matter what that other person prefer because you'll never hear what that person is hearing. Everyone hears and perceive things in a different way so if someone thinks that the cable made a difference then it did for that person. So if someone want to spend $2000 on a pair of cable then let them. Heck I say more power to them since they are helping to feed someone's family. This is a free country, if company like Halliburton can waste millions of tax payer money, then why can't we waste our own money without getting crucify. I admit I had a pair of $1600 speaker cables before and I did a comparison between my $.68/ft Canare 4S11 and you know what I did hear some differences. But did the differences justify the cost, NO. So I returned it and kept the Canare. If I had the extra money would I have kept the expensive cable, probably yes. Why? Because they are well made and look damn nice. Seriously folks if you are really into hi-end audio, you are not only buying the stuff for the sound, but also for the look and pride of owning that piece of equipment. This is the same reason why people are willing to spend $150 for a pair of Nike when they can get a normal pair of tennis shoe for half the price. It is also why women like to have LV and Hermes purses when a cheap purse from Wal-mart does the same thing. The same reason why people who have money drives BMW, Lexus, Bentley, Rolls Royce, and other expensive automobiles. My point is that it doesn't matter what the other guys thinks as long as you are satisfy and happy with what you got. Everyone value things a little differently. For example the wife or girlfriend might think that spending $1000 on a receiver is a waste of money, but at the same time she thinks it is ok to spend $1500 on a pair of diamond ear rings. The benefit gained from buying the receiver for you have a higher benefit to cost ratio then compare to the wife or girlfriend. The same is true the other way around. Simply put there is no scientific way to measure happiness and everyone utilty level is not the same even when comparing the same goods. So folks, stop getting upset at each other and just enjoy the music.

[996turbo]

I could not agree with what you said more.

[mtrycraft]

There will be no end to this argument.


That we can agree about. Neither will there be an end to the discussion of creation or intelligent design, right?

Think about it, it doesn't matter what that other person prefer because you'll never hear what that person is hearing.

Ah, now you are confusing a preference to what one hears? I doubt it is the same, right?
Hearing can be tested. Preferences most likely not as many aspects makes up a preference and in hearing, only the sound is involved, right?

Everyone hears and perceive things in a different way

Everyone perceives differently. Hopefully we all hear the same way though. There is a difference between hearing and perceiving.


so if someone thinks that the cable made a difference then it did for that person.

A sibgular reality?


So if someone want to spend $2000 on a pair of cable then let them.

Who is stopping him?

Heck I say more power to them since they are helping to feed someone's family.

Yes, one way to look at it. But, perhaps it is a family that doesn't need more feeding, the owner of the company?

This is a free country,

So far it is, to a limit.

then why can't we waste our own money without getting crucify.

No one is crucified. Many are questiond though when certain claims are made. As was Halliburton is questioned and will be required to repay.


I admit I had a pair of $1600 speaker cables before and I did a comparison between my $.68/ft Canare 4S11 and you know what I did hear some differences.

I think you perceived something. What, is the real question that can be tested.

If I had the extra money would I have kept the expensive cable, probably yes. Why? Because they are well made and look damn nice.

That is a valid issue of a preferred cable, yes by all means.

Seriously folks if you are really into hi-end audio, you are not only buying the stuff for the sound, but also for the look and pride of owning that piece of equipment.

Ah, you raise two issues here: sound quality and the rest. Sound quality can be tested. The rest, cannot.

[Peter_Klim]

I'm going to end this argument once and for all:

WHO CARES!!!

If you hear a difference or not, why try to convince someone otherwise?

Let's talk about something else: I believe in Jesus...

[Peter_Klim]

I'm going to end this argument once and for all:

WHO CARES!!!

If you hear a difference or not, why try to convince someone otherwise?

Let's talk about something else: I believe in Jesus...

WOW!! I stopped reading this thread after the 1st page and not until after posting my last post did I read the one before mine. I totally agree with you!

[Thomas_A]

1. I'm going to end this argument once and for all:

2. WHO CARES!!!

3. If you hear a difference or not, why try to convince someone otherwise?

4. Let's talk about something else: I believe in Jesus...

1. At last! 25 years of debate is over.
2. Who cares? Who do you think cares? Isn't it obvious?
3. Why not?
4. Who?

[Peter_Klim]

1. At last! 25 years of debate is over.
2. Who cares? Who do you think cares? Isn't it obvious?
3. Why not?
4. Who?

1 - I wish it were.
2 - People who like to debate.
3 - Because no one is going to change the other persons mind.
4- "God so loved the world
That He gave His one and only Son (Jesus),
That whosoever believes in Him
Will not perish but have everlasting life." - John 3:16

[mtrycraft]

3 - Because no one is going to change the other persons mind.

I guess then you haven't read DMK's message where his mind was changed?
And the countless private mails and ones who never post?
You just cannot claim what you are claiming.

4- "God so loved the world
That He gave His one and only Son (Jesus),
That whosoever believes in Him
Will not perish but have everlasting life." - John 3:16


OK, that is what that passage has to say. And? It must be so? Based on one book? That book prooves itself?
Or, there is external evidence? Good luck, enjoy your faith.

[DMK]

3 - Because no one is going to change the other persons mind.

I guess then you haven't read DMK's message where his mind was changed?
And the countless private mails and ones who never post?
You just cannot claim what you are claiming.

4- "God so loved the world
That He gave His one and only Son (Jesus),
That whosoever believes in Him
Will not perish but have everlasting life." - John 3:16


OK, that is what that passage has to say. And? It must be so? Based on one book? That book prooves itself?
Or, there is external evidence? Good luck, enjoy your faith.

Mtry, in fairness, the posts by yourself and like-minded others really didn't change my mind. They did, however, give me the impetus to test cables myself. As you know, I heard no differences but I'm still not prepared to state unequivocally that the cables that come with Pioneer receivers are completely transparent. That doesn't stop me from poking a little harmless fun at cable believers, though.

As for the biblical passage, I'll always remember one thing my father said. He was a minister before he retired. He said "there are precious few atheists in a foxhole and even fewer in an intensive care ward." That proves nothing, of course but in his experience, even the disbelievers in those wards pray like crazy...just in case!

[markw]

"God so loved the world That He gave His one and only Son (Jesus),
That whosoever believes in Him Will not perish but have everlasting life." - John 3:16

Good thought, Peter. Hang in there. You're not alone.

[Feanor]

the answer is a positive YES....

I think there are differences between cables too. I've heard them though I can't prove that to anyone, not even myself. Nevertheless I'm reasonably convinced.

There are measurable differences between cables so why should there not be be audible differences as well? Some cable makers, (too few), publish electrical parameters for their speakers, (resistance, inductance, capacitance). You might expect that a cable with high inductance / low capacitance would emphasize bass. Maybe you could use zip cord + an inductor to achieve the same effect or maybe not: it would depend on the overall result. In any case, lots of people claim they can hear difference between similarly spec'e capacitors and inductors.

Proof is a difficult think. As RGA points out, DBT (double blind testing) cannot prove the negative proposition that there is no difference between A and B. Tobacco companies long claimed that there was no proof that tabacco caused disease: stricly speaking they were right. But we -- and they -- really knew better.

[skeptic]

"There are measurable differences between cables so why should there not be be audible differences as well?"

Sometimes measureable differences are so slight as to be below the threshold of hearing of most people. Furthermore, whether these differences show up audibly and exactly how these differences manifest themselves subjectively depends on what equipment they are connected to. They become part of a network, they don't exist in a vacuum.

"As RGA points out, DBT (double blind testing) cannot prove the negative proposition that there is no difference between A and B."

I am sorry to say as is often the case, I have to disagree with RGA's statement. Even in Cable Asylum's discussion of its anti DBT rule, they acknowledge that DBTs are the ONLY way to determine if small audible differences between components exist. To be perfectly honest, most DBTs of audio equipment are probably not run fairly. The first thing anyone running such a test should do is screen the participants to determine their hearing accuity. No point in buying expensive cables (or anything else expensive in audio equipment) if you are hearing impaired. If the slight differences do exist, the first step would be to find out if the people with the sharpest ears can hear them. Then they can test and discuss the implications for the rest of us.

I am always astonished that so many people who advocate the purchase and use of expensive audio cables because of differences in linear electrical properties such as capacitance and inductance don't understand that all they are doing is changing the frequency response of their sound systems, yet would reject the use of tone controls or equalizers which perform exactly the same function in almost exactly the same way except that they do it cheaply, reliably, predictably, and controllably.

[E-Stat]

I am always astonished that so many people who advocate the purchase and use of expensive audio cables because of differences in linear electrical properties such as capacitance and inductance don't understand that all they are doing is changing the frequency response of their sound systems, yet would reject the use of tone controls or equalizers which perform exactly the same function in almost exactly the same way except that they do it cheaply, reliably, predictably, and controllably.

The difference lies entirely with "almost exactly" I find prevention of an audio anomaly far superior to correction after the fact, especially when the "cure" involves the introduction of an otherwise superfluous complex circuit. Remember Occam's Razor? Adding an active tone control stage to "reboost" the upper frequency rolloff experienced when using high capacitance cables between my attenuators and power amp is not an elegant solution. BTW, using cables of known capacitance is also reliable, predictable, and controllable. I'll concede only the "cheaply". It all depends upon how many IC chips you want in your signal path and how much resolution you wish to sacrifice.

rw

[skeptic]

How about using a bass boost and a treble cut for your phonograph cartridge to compensate for the treble boost and bass cut in the recording? That's what the RIAA curve and microgroove recording is all about. How many gain stages did you say there were in that monster 48 channel recording console, the master tape deck, the remastering deck, and in the cutter console? 30? 50?

[E-Stat]

How about using a bass boost and a treble cut for your phonograph cartridge to compensate for the treble boost and bass cut in the recording?

Perhaps you need brushing up on the definition of "superfluous".

BTW, the RIAA example is the exact opposite of the scenario I described. Do you think the sonics of LPs would be as good if it were the highs that were initially cut and later boosted? You will get nothing but agreement from me concerning the cumulative sins of gaggles of ICs and gain stages used in most studio recordings. I greatly prefer the sonics of minimally miked and signal-simple recordings. That philosophy most certainly carries over downstream to my music system as well. I have yet to meet a perfect gain stage.

rw

[henry lee]

I to have heard noticeable difference's when changinging from a heavy gauge monster cable to a higher end cable. When swapping out the monster with kimberkable the differece's were immediate(dependant on cable line). The soundstage opened up and the bass cleaned up,with pitch instead of the boom that the monster offered.However, the cable cannot produce miracle's. The rest of your component's should be up for the task at hand aswell.Remember ,your system is only as good as your weakest link.

[JohnMichael]

I to have heard noticeable difference's when changinging from a heavy gauge monster cable to a higher end cable. When swapping out the monster with kimberkable the differece's were immediate(dependant on cable line). The soundstage opened up and the bass cleaned up,with pitch instead of the boom that the monster offered.However, the cable cannot produce miracle's. The rest of your component's should be up for the task at hand aswell.Remember ,your system is only as good as your weakest link.

Welcome and I agree cables can make a difference. Of course this thread is very old. You might want to start a new thread.
c

[atomicAdam]

yes, this is an old thresd... but

the best cables should get out of the way of the sound.