So did Isreal do the right thing?

[kexodusc]

... am joking about nuking anybody, if that can be considered a joke. (Somebody else "started it", so it's was alright to keep going in that vein, eh?)

Let me state up front that I am not calling for the the destruction of Isreal. It exists and it's not going to go away. Palestinians and Arab states ought to face that fact pragmatically.

On the other hand, taking an historical view, Isreal exists only because of the circumstance of European politics and European imperialism in that part of the world. It is not something that the Arabs of the region wanted or deserved. The principles of the Zionist Movement are completely irrelevant to the aboriginal people who cannot be expected to respect them.

Nobody will deny that the vast majority of the population of the Middle East was compelled to comply with the creation of Israel for the benefit of tiny minority, behind the backing of Western countries with no vested interest in the region. So yeah, I'm sympathetic to their disagreement with how things were done.

But upon the formation of Israel (the first day in fact) instead of continuing to negotiate or pleading their case, the neighboring countries (all of them) attacked Israel (who at the time were probably the least responsible for the creation of Israel). Counter-attack, after counter-attack has been ongoing since then.

At some point you have to wonder why Israel doesn't try to negotiate a concession based compromised, with meaningful concessions. Surely the land her people were promised didn't include an eternal war against an overwhelming population surrounding her on all sides? But it comes back to history - there's a reason why Israel's national phrase is "Never Again".

[Feanor]

...
Surely the land her people were promised didn't include an eternal war against an overwhelming population surrounding her on all sides?

Well, I'm not so sure that isn't the price to be paid.

Yes, it does come around time and again: the notion that that the land of Isreal is the God-given right of the Jewish people. Certainly you can't seem to keep them out:

• Abraham migrated to Palestine from Ur, (where possibly he had pissed someone off);
• Times got tough so many moved to Egypt, but ..
• They pissed off the Egyptians who tried to enslave, so they moved back to Palestine, kicking out the Philistines, et al.;
• The Babylonians conqured and dragged many off to that city, (Babylonian Diaspora), but ...
• The Persians beat the Babylonians, and they went back;
• They pissed off the Romans who destroyed the Temple, etc.; many left, (Roman Diaspora);
• A LONG time passed during which they pissed off a lot of people, culminating with A. Hitler, but ...
• The "Final Solution" didn't work so they when back, this timing kicking out the Palestinians;
• They are still there, still pissing off a lot of people -- who are saying, "'Never again'?!? How about not this time".

I guess it never will end.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

... am joking about nuking anybody, if that can be considered a joke. (Somebody else "started it", it was alright to keep going in that vein, right?)

Let me state up front that I am not calling for the the destruction of Isreal. It exists and it's not going to go away. Palestinians and Arab states ought to face that fact pragmatically.

On the other hand, taking an historical view, Isreal exists only because of the circumstance of European politics and European imperialism in that part of the world. It is not something that the Arabs of the region wanted or deserved. The principiles of the Zionist Movement are completely irrelevant to the aboriginal people who cannot be expected to respect them.

Feanor,
You cannot undo what has already been done. European imperialism has left its damage all over the world. However, I have sympathy for both sides here. Yes Israel was plopped down in the middle of Arab territory. Its done now. However not totally willing to give Israel a pass, I think they have been over aggressive just to maintain a perception of invincibility. I can understand this, because of any of the Arab countries smell weakness from Israel, they will attack it no doubt. What I find troublesome is that many have no problem pointing to the hypocracy of Israel, but how about the hypocracy of the Arab world? It has become very apparent that Hezbollah is using Lebanese citizens are human shields. Why is this not a problem to the world? When Hezbollah fires rockets from civilian neighborhoods, and Israel destroys the launchers killing people, why isn't hezbollah condemned for bring the war into the neighborhoods? Why is the burden of responsibility always on the Israel, or the United States? When the world condemns Israel, doesn't it understand that this emboldens the terrorist?

So here is what we have. We have one country, and one area, both controlled by known terrorist. The authorities, and country leaders cannot ask them to leave or it will destabilize their governments. Isn't anything wrong with this picture? You have the Lebanese PM on television screaming the Israel is destroying his country, but never did he ask hezbollah to leave. You have the Lebanese people crying and screaming on television, but never do they say that hezbollah is the reason they are suffering. I am finding that I am very troubled by this kind of hypocrasy. You have the Palestinian people crying the blues about how they are treated by Israel and how they are suffering at the hands of Israel, and then you have a supposed elected leader for(who by the way died) who's wife lives in the lap of luxury(I understand that Arafat was worth 130 million dollars) off of money donated by the US and Europe, and they don't complain about that.

I think that Israel and the United States is becoming the whipping boy for all of the troubles of the Arab world, and nobody has the insight to look in their own backyard.

Please everyone, no more talk about nuking anyone or everyone envolved in a certain religion. Did anybody desire to kill all white males after the Oklahoma bombing? Throwing the baby out with the bath water doesn't solve anything.

[CookieFactory]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

[JoeE SP9]

When Hezbollah or Al Kaida get their hands on some nukes (courtesy of Iran) and drop one on Telaviv and the other on Pittsburgh will moderates still be sitting around trying to negotiate? Radical Islam leaves no room for anything but Islam. You can't negotiate with a group that will kill one of their own countrymen for converting to Christianity.
Moderate Muslims have shown where they stand by providing funding and hiding for militants. Although they say that peaceful co-existence with other religious and ethnic groups is what they want, it's a smoke screen. They want an Islamic world and need to do nothing more than what they've been doing. As long as they supply money and silence the radicals have won.
Many thanks to all the moderates who believe in "negotiation". Consequently the western world is unwilling and unable to fight back. You should understand that radical Muslims will willingly kill anyone who is not a Muslim. If they can ever settle their Jewish problem by killing all of them and giving Israel back to the Palestinians. The USA is next on the list. They are salivating over the very idea.

[CookieFactory]

When Hezbollah or Al Kaida get their hands on some nukes (courtesy of Iran) and drop one on Telaviv and the other on Pittsburgh will moderates still be sitting around trying to negotiate? Radical Islam leaves no room for anything but Islam. You can't negotiate with a group that will kill one of their own countrymen for converting to Christianity.
Moderate Muslims have shown where they stand by providing funding and hiding for militants. Although they say that peaceful co-existence with other religious and ethnic groups is what they want, it's a smoke screen. They want an Islamic world and need to do nothing more than what they've been doing. As long as they supply money and silence the radicals have won.
Many thanks to all the moderates who believe in "negotiation". Consequently the western world is unwilling and unable to fight back. You should understand that radical Muslims will willingly kill anyone who is not a Muslim. If they can ever settle their Jewish problem by killing all of them and giving Israel back to the Palestinians. The USA is next on the list. They are salivating over the very idea.

If If If...right? Well what "if" the USA brings down it's awesome military might via operation SHOCK and AWE upon the inhabitants of the Middle East? Oh wait there's no need to speculate, that already happened in Afghanistan and Iraq!
Of course both countries are now shining examples of liberty, freedom, and the pursuit of happiness "Spreading Democracy (tm)" is known for right?

[Feanor]

....
Moderate Muslims have shown where they stand by providing funding and hiding for militants. Although they say that peaceful co-existence with other religious and ethnic groups is what they want, it's a smoke screen. They want an Islamic world and need to do nothing more than what they've been doing. As long as they supply money and silence the radicals have won.
...

Joe, now you're sounding like a bigot, plain and simple. Moderate Moslims in Pakistan and Britain helped forstall the planned airline attacks. Moderate Canadian Moslims helped prevent planned attacks in Canada not long before that. It is vital and productive to reach out to moderates throughout the world who are, as yet, still the majority.

....
Many thanks to all the moderates who believe in "negotiation". Consequently the western world is unwilling and unable to fight back. ....

What sort of "fighting back" do you have in mind?? What is being done in Afganistan and especially Iraq hasn't stiffled the extremists. What Israel did in Lebanon was much worse than useless.

[JoeE SP9]

Joe, now you're sounding like a bigot, plain and simple. Moderate Moslims in Pakistan and Britain helped forstall the planned airline attacks. Moderate Canadian Moslims helped prevent planned attacks in Canada not long before that. It is vital and productive to reach out to moderates throughout the world who are, as yet, still the majority.

I am an African American male. I live in the inner city and have neighbors of many colors and creeds. It is impossible to be black and live in the inner city and not have Muslim friends. I even have a few who are members of the NOI (Nation Of Islam). I am not a bigot. I don't care what color or religious beliefs people follow. What I care about is the country I live in and it's safety. I care enough to have voluntarily laid my life on the line for it. It is known that "so-called" Muslim moderates mainly from Iran and Saudi Arabia and its closer neighbors finance much if not all of the radical Islamic terrorists.

When Iran gets its "bomb" project into full production it's no great leap of logic to figure that very soon thereafter one or more Islamic terrorist groups will be suitably equipped with "nukes". Since Iran has declared that the destruction of Israel is something it is actively contributing too do you think those terrorists will not have bombs of their own.

What sort of "fighting back" do you have in mind?? What is being done in Afghanistan and especially Iraq hasn't stiffled the extremists. What Israel did in Lebanon was much worse than useless.

My first recommendation is to increase the bounty on Osama Bin Laden to 10 billion dollars. An increase of the same percentage for other upper echelon terrorists would also be appropriate. With reward money of those amounts tempting someone becomes much easier.

Second we need leadership in this country that will work toward stopping Saudi "moderates" from providing monetary support to terrorists. Opening up our oil reserves and drastically cutting the purchase of Saudi oil would hit those so called "moderates in their pocket. Of course this can only be accomplished if we can hit them where they sit.

No matter what you might think of Islam and the Arabs the fact remains that the objective of Islam is a world of Islam. I don't want to live in that kind of world. I'm sure lots of other Americans are not too happy with the idea of a world ruled by Islam and the Sharia. Living in a world that follows Islamic thought as it's government and uses the Sharia for its legal code is just to repugnant to even think about. No religious freedom of any sort coupled with a legal system straight out of the stone age. Welcome to the year 950AD! I suggest you check how many Christian congregations exist in Saudi Arabia and Iran.

How many of any religions and practicioners of those other than Islam even exist in Saudi Arabia and Iran.

[JoeE SP9]

If If If...right? Well what "if" the USA brings down it's awesome military might via operation SHOCK and AWE upon the inhabitants of the Middle East? Oh wait there's no need to speculate, that already happened in Afghanistan and Iraq!
Of course both countries are now shining examples of liberty, freedom, and the pursuit of happiness "Spreading Democracy (tm)" is known for right?

There are no ifs in my post. It's not a question of if, but of when.

[trollgirl]

When Hezbollah or Al Kaida get their hands on some nukes (courtesy of Iran) and drop one on Telaviv and the other on Pittsburgh will moderates still be sitting around trying to negotiate? Radical Islam leaves no room for anything but Islam. You can't negotiate with a group that will kill one of their own countrymen for converting to Christianity.
Moderate Muslims have shown where they stand by providing funding and hiding for militants. Although they say that peaceful co-existence with other religious and ethnic groups is what they want, it's a smoke screen. They want an Islamic world and need to do nothing more than what they've been doing. As long as they supply money and silence the radicals have won.
Many thanks to all the moderates who believe in "negotiation". Consequently the western world is unwilling and unable to fight back. You should understand that radical Muslims will willingly kill anyone who is not a Muslim. If they can ever settle their Jewish problem by killing all of them and giving Israel back to the Palestinians. The USA is next on the list. They are salivating over the very idea.

As I have said before, the REAL world is always more complex than propaganda or rhetoric allow. You posit that Islam is totally intolerant, but ignore the historic FACT that in several countries, Christians and (yes) Jews have co-existed with Muslims for centuries. Consider Lebanon, inhabitated for centuries by Christian, Muslim, and Druze. Or Iraq, which until recently, had a healthy Christian minority, even prominent in the Baath Party and the national government. Ironically, it is the West's very war on Islam which has put the final nail in the coffin for Iraqi Christians as a group. Most people in most places prefer to get along in peace, unless they are worked up by some rabble-rouser for reasons of money, power and/or control. Your logic, if taken to the limit, would justify killing every other human being on the planet, just in case they MIGHT be planning to off you.

Laz

[Feanor]

...

Second we need leadership in this country that will work toward stopping Saudi "moderates" from providing monetary support to terrorists. Opening up our oil reserves and drastically cutting the purchase of Saudi oil would hit those so called "moderates in their pocket. Of course this can only be accomplished if we can hit them where they sit.

No matter what you might think of Islam and the Arabs the fact remains that the objective of Islam is a world of Islam. I don't want to live in that kind of world. I'm sure lots of other Americans are not too happy with the idea of a world ruled by Islam and the Sharia. Living in a world that follows Islamic thought as it's government and uses the Sharia for its legal code is just to repugnant to even think about. No religious freedom of any sort coupled with a legal system straight out of the stone age. Welcome to the year 950AD! I suggest you check how many Christian congregations exist in Saudi Arabia and Iran.

...

Moslem extremism is a huge threat to world peace but for that very reason over reaction, and foolishness in general, must be avoided. One point where we definitely agree is that moderate Moslems, especially those living in the West, have done too little to root out extremists in their midst. And being a bit sterner with, e.g., the Saudi royal family might not be a bad thing, unfortunately we would have to tread more carefully than the U.S. State Department is capable of if we weren't to do more harm than good.

Religious Moslems, like religous Christians, feel they're way is right and that it ought to be embrassed by the whole world. But unfortunately hatred as well as religous zeal is playing into the current problem. Some Moslems hate the West for no better reason than that the West has been in ascendancy for a few hundred years. However I believe much of the current hatred has be focused by the specific past and on-going errors of US foreign policy, not the least its uncritical support for the state of Israel and indifference to the historic grievance of the Palestinians. Of course, Iranian Moslems harbor deep resentment towards the US on account its of Shah, an oppressor who would not likely have come to power without US support. Simply put, the US will have to atone for these errors before the Moslem extremist threat can be assuaged.

On the other hand there is essentially zero threat that Western countries are going to have Sharia law or the Wahhabi sect shoved down our throats: it is totally outside our social and religous perspective and it won't happen. Don't worry 'bout it.

[JoeE SP9]

When an Iranian supported terrorist group nukes an Israeli city don't get pi**ed of when I say "I told you so". That time is coming. You can make book on it.

[JoeE SP9]

On the other hand there is essentially zero threat that Western countries are going to have Sharia law or the Wahhabi sect shoved down our throats: it is totally outside our social and religous perspective and it won't happen. Don't worry 'bout it.

As I said, the objective of radical Islam and strict Islamic thought is a world of Islam. The radicals are more than willing to kill everyone who doesn't agree with them. They are also quite willing to die for their beliefs. Although you choose not to recognize or admit it, it will eventually be them or us! I have made my choice and I will fight for it. What will you do?

[Mr Peabody]

I heard this morning that the United Nations failed to follow through with sanctions against Iran as threatened. That's why these countries can feel free to do as they please. It's also why at some point, whether Isreal, the U.S. or any other country who feels they have justification, has to take action. A well overlooked fact, is that there were several ignored U.N. resolutions with Iraq before the U.S. ever invaded. I'm not saying it was right or there might not have been other motivators, but when you make a resolution or threat of sanction you'd better back it up or just shut up.

[Feanor]

When an Iranian supported terrorist group nukes an Israeli city don't get pi**ed of when I say "I told you so". That time is coming. You can make book on it.

Perhaps you're right, but it, again, what's to be done to prevent it. Should Israel or the U.S. strike Iran? I say this is not ethically justifiable, nor would it necessarily be effective.

What the U.S. might do is to declare that it will vaporize the principal city of any nation that first uses nuclear weapons, whether that nation be Iran, Israel, Pakistan, India, or North Korea, and whether the attach is launched by that country or a surrogate. "MAD" has worked in the past; perhaps it's still relevant.

[Feanor]

As I said, the objective of radical Islam and strict Islamic thought is a world of Islam. The radicals are more than willing to kill everyone who doesn't agree with them. They are also quite willing to die for their beliefs. Although you choose not to recognize or admit it, it will eventually be them or us! I have made my choice and I will fight for it. What will you do?

I'll be with you. But many things need to come to pass before the choice becomes that simple. Many things might be done to prevent it. In particular, the US needs to rectify its foreign policy starting now.