So did Isreal do the right thing?

[markw]

But in reality everyone one of us should be asking this question to himself or herself.

The sad fact is that real people are dieing. Not just the bad guys either. Innocent people. Women and children. People who have never raised a hand in anger against anyone have been terrorized and slaughtered. Homes destroyed, lives ruined. A whole country is now being bombed into to the same horrible state that Iraq is in.

Is it fair? Is it moral? Is it a sin before god?

All that Lebanon has to do is return the two kidnapped soldiers and assure Israel that their will be no more rockets launched at them from their soil. ...and that no incursions into Israel will take place from there, either.

Simple as that.

If Lebanon was sincere about not wanting trouble with Israel they would have put a stop to the shenanigans in the south sometime within the last five years when Israel returned that land to Lebanon. Israel has been more than patient for five years as they lobbed rockets into Israel . Since they (Lebanon) seem to be either unwilling or unable to do the job, I guess it leaves Israel little choice except to do it themselves.

Remember, they are now using that land to stage incursions onto Israeli territory. That's a whole 'nuther ballgame and ratchets up the stakes quite a bit.

Until then, what is fair and moral? Who do you suppose is more accountable to God?

The terrorists, who accepted "land for peace" from Israel five years ago, only to use it to launch rockets at Israeli cities, send suicide bombers to blow up civilians and launch incursions into Israel, or the Israelis for finally reacting to that which has been their daily existance for fifty years or so? It seems they have run out of cheeks to turn.

It's been said that if the Arab nations gave up their weapons there would be peace. If Israel gives them up there will be a slaughter. Likewise, if Arab mothers loved their children more than they hated the Jews, there would be peace.

[ForeverAutumn]

But in reality everyone one of us should be asking this question to himself or herself.

The sad fact is that real people are dieing. Not just the bad guys either. Innocent people. Women and children. People who have never raised a hand in anger against anyone have been terrorized and slaughtered. Homes destroyed, lives ruined. A whole country is now being bombed into to the same horrible state that Iraq is in.

Is it fair? Is it moral? Is it a sin before god?

I thought this thread had been deleted at first. But I finally noticed it hiding up in The Cage. Why is there no "moved" notice like there is when threads are moved from one forum to another?

All very good questions Geoffcin. It is a sad fact of war that innocent people die. I'm thankful every day that these wars are not being waged in my own country...yet. Eight Canadian tourists were killed earlier this week in Lebanon. Hell, they don't even live there! They go on a vacation to a city that they believe is reasonably stable (under the perpetual circumstances), suddenly the winds change and they were bombed to death.

Is it fair? Never.
Is it moral? I would say, Yes, it is moral to defend yourself and protect your citizens. It's unfortunate and unfair that innocent people are caught in the process.
Is it a sin before god? As an athiest, I'll leave this one up to the religious to try to answer.

[Fergymunster]

I say shoot them all and let God sort it out (And i mean all religious fanatics)

Hey Florian is that a picture of your music room.It looks nice.I bet you sleep good at night knowing that a missle is not on it's way.

[shokhead]

I thought this thread had been deleted at first. But I finally noticed it hiding up in The Cage. Why is there no "moved" notice like there is when threads are moved from one forum to another?

All very good questions Geoffcin. It is a sad fact of war that innocent people die. I'm thankful every day that these wars are not being waged in my own country...yet. Eight Canadian tourists were killed earlier this week in Lebanon. Hell, they don't even live there! They go on a vacation to a city that they believe is reasonably stable (under the perpetual circumstances), suddenly the winds change and they were bombed to death.

Is it fair? Never.
Is it moral? I would say, Yes, it is moral to defend yourself and protect your citizens. It's unfortunate and unfair that innocent people are caught in the process.
Is it a sin before god? As an athiest, I'll leave this one up to the religious to try to answer.

Sorry to hear of those deaths. I'm not sure how anyone could assume anywhere over there is reasonably safe.

[Geoffcin]

I thought this thread had been deleted at first. But I finally noticed it hiding up in The Cage. Why is there no "moved" notice like there is when threads are moved from one forum to another?

All very good questions Geoffcin. It is a sad fact of war that innocent people die. I'm thankful every day that these wars are not being waged in my own country...yet. Eight Canadian tourists were killed earlier this week in Lebanon. Hell, they don't even live there! They go on a vacation to a city that they believe is reasonably stable (under the perpetual circumstances), suddenly the winds change and they were bombed to death.

Is it fair? Never.
Is it moral? I would say, Yes, it is moral to defend yourself and protect your citizens. It's unfortunate and unfair that innocent people are caught in the process.
Is it a sin before god? As an athiest, I'll leave this one up to the religious to try to answer.

Of course it's moral to defend yourself, but when is it moral to bomb innocent people? If a suspect hides in a movie theater full of innocent people is it moral to bomb the movie theater?

I pose the religious question not for us, but for them, as fully 99.99% of the combatants are deeply religious. Supposedly they all pray to the same god. Surely he's not condoning the killing of innocents.

It's interesting to see that everyone has assumed I was talking strictly about Israels actions. Please re-read my post, I wasn't.

[ForeverAutumn]

Of course it's moral to defend yourself, but when is it moral to bomb innocent people? If a suspect hides in a movie theater full of innocent people is it moral to bomb the movie theater?

You know, that's a question that I struggle with. Its very difficult to see innocent people die. And I'm sure that it's not easy for the military to target a place where they know civilians will be. But, yes, in your example, I think that there are circumstances when bombing the movie theatre is moral. If the person that you are targeting is known to be a threat and there is no other known alternative to rid yourself of that threat, then I would say that bombing the theatre is moral.

If Osama Bin Laden were sitting in a movie theatre in Afganistan, it is moral to bomb the theatre even though some innocent people will be killed. By doing so, you are defending yourself by eliminating a very large threat and protecting your people. To not bomb the theatre leaves you open for Osama's next attack and puts your people at risk.

What is immoral is if you bombed the theatre just for the hell of it. Just because you can. With your sole purpose being only to hurt innocent people.

[shokhead]

When the bad guys are hiding and living around them,come out to kill and fight go back to the innocent people to hid,then yes they are going to get hurt and killed. Its a bad deal.

[ForeverAutumn]

When the bad guys are hiding and living around them,come out to kill and fight go back to the innocent people to hid,then yes they are going to get hurt and killed. Its a bad deal.

Good point. If the innocents are really innocent and want to save themselves, they need to turn in the bad guys who are hiding amonst them.

The problem is, the people in the theatre (to continue with the previous example) may not think that Osama is a bad guy. They may support his actions and may be protecting him. In which case, that makes them a threat also. Suddenly the people in the theatre don't seem as innocent as they may have first appeared. It's all very grey. Who are innocent and who are the enemy?

If you follow this train of thought, it's easy to see how a "If you're not with us, then you must be against us" mentality is born.

[kexodusc]

The terrorist don't follow Geneva, they don't play by the rules. If anyone thinks they can be contained, or defeated, or reasoned with by playing by the rules, they are dreaming.

They hide among the "innocent" because they wish to exploit the moral dilemma their military adversaries have to deal with when pointing a missile at a hospital, anything to get an edge. It works. I guarantee you if their enemies started bombing schools and hospitals in the first wave of retaliation, they wouldn't be there anymore. Of course the next step is to hide in their enemies' hospitals and schools instead of their own.

We view the deaths of innocent people and civilians as collateral damage, tragic and terrible. To them, there are no innocents - you're either loyal to the cause, or loyal to the enemy. People who are killed when a suicide bomber blows up a bus or school are revered as martyrs. It's the greatest honor. Foreign civilians are sympathizers responsible for electing the leaders they're at war with.

These religions have been fighting for centuries, both sides would rather sacrifice their lives than give up the battle to the aggressors. Western civilization doesn't understand this. It's nothing like dying for your country, or even your family - it's far beyond that to these people.

How do you defeat such an enemy with conventional warfare? You don't.
You either give in to their demands and hope they never ask for more (which I'm skeptical of based on my admittedly limited understanding of some countries' values of human rights and lack of tolerance) or you draw the line and play dirty yourself.

You're forced to choose the lesser of two evils pretty much.
I'll be blunt though, if it's "us" vs. "them", I'll pick "us" right or wrong every single time. Guess I'm just simple.

[shokhead]

Good point. If the innocents are really innocent and want to save themselves, they need to turn in the bad guys who are hiding amonst them.

The problem is, the people in the theatre (to continue with the previous example) may not think that Osama is a bad guy. They may support his actions and may be protecting him. In which case, that makes them a threat also. Suddenly the people in the theatre don't seem as innocent as they may have first appeared. It's all very grey. Who are innocent and who are the enemy?

If you follow this train of thought, it's easy to see how a "If you're not with us, then you must be against us" mentality is born.

Problem is the more innocents that die,the more they will turn on the side of the bad guys around them.

[trollgirl]

Problem is the more innocents that die,the more they will turn on the side of the bad guys around them.

Yes, it's a lose-lose situation for the common people on both sides.

"You can't fight for peace. You have to peace for peace." Peace as a verb - I like that.

Here is the Plan:
"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time." Albert Pike 1871

Albert Pike was high up in the Masonic organization here in the USA. What we are seeing unfolding has been planned for a long time. If any of you are curious as to what Pike said about World Wars one and two, I can post those quotes too.

Laz

[JoeE SP9]

I say shoot them all and let God sort it out (And i mean all religious fanatics)

I'm with you on this one Flo. I've said before, we should neutron bomb the entire middle east. We should include Afghanistan and Iran in the bombing. Neutron bombs would kill only people and preserve the valuable infrastructure. Oh and while we're at it we should accidently drop a few on North Korea and get rid of that mess also.

[Florian]

Hey Florian is that a picture of your music room.It looks nice.I bet you sleep good at night knowing that a missle is not on it's way.

I wish that was my music room, but in this world women are competing against me with the same rights as me and this makes it hard for to me suceed.

-Flo

[Florian]

I'm with you on this one Flo. I've said before, we should neutron bomb the entire middle east. We should include Afghanistan and Iran in the bombing. Neutron bombs would kill only people and preserve the valuable infrastructure. Oh and while we're at it we should accidently drop a few on North Korea and get rid of that mess also.

Yep, i am sick of all this religious crap and this incl. the entire christianity all the same.

[markw]

Yes, it's a lose-lose situation for the common people on both sides.

"You can't fight for peace. You have to peace for peace." Peace as a verb - I like that.

Here is the Plan:
"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time." Albert Pike 1871

Albert Pike was high up in the Masonic organization here in the USA. What we are seeing unfolding has been planned for a long time. If any of you are curious as to what Pike said about World Wars one and two, I can post those quotes too.

Laz

Sounds sort of like the Tribulation.

[ForeverAutumn]

I wish that was my music room, but in this world women are competing against me with the same rights as me and this makes it hard for to me suceed.

-Flo

LMAO!

[JoeE SP9]

Yep, i am sick of all this religious crap and this incl. the entire christianity all the same.

All religions are silly!!!

[noddin0ff]

All religions are silly!!!

That's not true, the only silly religions are the ones that aren't mine.

[kexodusc]

That's not true, the only silly religions are the ones that aren't mine.

I don't think the religion has anything to do with it - I'm not aware that these religions are teaching war-making - it's people with other agendas introducing that. The religions are being twisted to manipulate people, undeniably, but as far as I can tell, the 3 Abrahamic faiths (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) all teach peace. Human nature is the corrupt party here - been plenty of non-religious tyrants as well.

[Geoffcin]

Were on the Lebanese side of the border! They were conducting some kind of raid when they were ambushed. Sort of like WMD, that really means nothing now.

[kexodusc]

Were on the Lebanese side of the border! They were conducting some kind of raid when they were ambushed. Sort of like WMD, that really means nothing now.

Just curious, what was your source? Everything international I've searched - including French news, still reports that Operation "Truthful Promise" was named after the plan to enter Israel to kidnap hostages for the sole purpose of negotiating the release of Lebanese prisoners - supposedly verified by Hezbollah.

I have little doubt there's a lot of bad info on this subject - surely both sides are interpreting events a bit differently as needed or desired, and it could very well be that Israeli's intercepted the invasion and followed them across the border - or that it was a pre-emptive strike - or exactly as you say.

Personally, I don't think the kidnapping is what set Israel off the 8 killed soldiers on Israeli soil (supposedly) as a result of an attack by Hezbollah probably would have triggered this retaliation on its own - Israel can't seriously expect to increase its chances of recovering the captives this way.

I'm a little surprised at how slow the rest of the world is moving on this.

And I'm dying to know what was in that letter the Germans received from Iran.

[shokhead]

I'm trying to figure out what Israeeli did wrong? Let there soldiers get kidnaped?

[Geoffcin]

Just curious, what was your source.

According to the Lebanese police force, the two soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory, in the area of Aïta Al-Chaab close to the border, whereas Israeli television indicated that they had been captured in Israeli territory.

[kexodusc]

Go figure!
Given the last 60 years of war in that region, it's nor a shock that there's 2 different accounts of what happened.

Okay, who's lying?

[noddin0ff]

I don't think the religion has anything to do with it - I'm not aware that these religions are teaching war-making - it's people with other agendas introducing that. The religions are being twisted to manipulate people, undeniably, but as far as I can tell, the 3 Abrahamic faiths (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) all teach peace. Human nature is the corrupt party here - been plenty of non-religious tyrants as well.

Well, in this case, it's probably all about religion, fundamentally. Everyone lays claim to the land because it is home to sites of great importance to the respective religions. In the US, it's the Christian right in the US that supports Israel because of the religious ties to Judaism. Layer historic claims to the land over on top of religion, and then layer political power and regional influence desires over that, and then throw in a mix of self interest and you get a mix that I don't understand.

Doing some Googling…

Lebanon is 40% Christian, 30% Sunni, and 30 Shiite. The Sunni+Christian majority is the more wealthy and better-educated population, and it is the combined majority that wants to rid Lebanon of Syrian influence. Hezbollah is popular with the poorer Shia community because Hezbollah promotes social services like schools and hospitals.

Hezbollah’s Shiite religion is modeled after that of Iranian Scholars. Hezbollah want the destruction of the state of Israel. Iran and Syria fund Hezbollah.

Hamas is Sunni, wants the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic Palestinian State where Israel is. Saudi Arabia is Sunni and funds Hamas

Egypt is Sunni and borders Gaza where the Hamas conflict is but wants Hamas to recognize Israel.

Lebanon and Syria both lay claim to land that Israel withdrew from in 2000. Syria wants to maintain political control over Lebanon and backs Hezbollah. I suppose because if it didn’t then the Christian and Sunni majority would run Lebanon. I guess the goal of Syria is to destabilize this majority.

The Lebonese civil war in the late 1970’s started I think because the French in the 1920’s created a Christian controlled government in Lebonan. The Christians were an actual majority then. But trying to understand the factions in this war is beyond me. It looks very complicated.

By fighting Shia Hezbollah in Lebanon, Israel could bolster the Christian and Sunni majorities that are generally more aligned with US and allies.

Iran is 90% Shia. Curiously, Syria is 75% Sunni (I can’t figure out this one). I don’t’ think the Lebanon-Syria friction is a religious conflict, just a power one. Except that Syria probably doesn’t want too strong of a Lebonese alignment with Judeo-Christian nations.

Iran is going nuclear, wants more influence in the region, funds Hezbollah, is going nuclear, wants to destroy Israel, is closely aligned with Syria, is going nuclear, funds Hamas as well so they can destroy Israel, is a Theocratic republic, is closely aligned with Syria, oh, and is going nuclear.


Anyway…just rambling while I try to educate myself.