Should illegal aliens all be made citizens?

[SlumpBuster]

Another issue that's just now hitting the courts is whether or not an illegal alien meets the definition of "employee" for workers' compensation purposes. If they don't, then the workers' comp insurance company doesn't have to pay for treatment of on-the-job injuries suffered by aliens. Guess who picks up the tab? If you must be a legal resident citizen to be an "employee" for workers' comp, then employers do not have to count illegals meaning that they can keep their workers' comp premiums down by hiring illegals. Premiums are based in part on number of employees. This happens a lot in the construction industry where independent contractors don't have to carry workers' comp if they have less than a certain number of employees. Depending on the answer to this question, an employer may be able to hire legals until it reaches the limit, then hire as many illegals as they want or need. Then, neither the legals nor the illegals are covered by workers' comp. By it's nature, this question will be addressed on a state-by-state basis. The answer to this question may have an impact on where illegals begin to concentrate.

My state's highest court hasn't answered this question yet, but a recent trial court held that an illegal alien is no different than a resident citizen for workers' comp purposes. Although a lot of people reacted with outrage (for some reason many think the government pays workers' comp benefits), I thought it was a wise and lawful decision.

FYI, in our state (and probably many others), employers of farm laborers are totally exempt from having to carry workers' comp insurance. I think that explains quite a bit.

I don't think that is much protection for an employer. I don't know how it works in your neck of the woods, but failure to maintain workers comp insurance under a no-fault regime opens you up to direct negligence suits. If these guys get hurt on the job through employer negligence and workers comp doesn't apply, then great, we'll sue the employer directly. Chances are if your the kind of employer that skirts the law regarding insurance requirements and employing illegals, chances are I'll be able to develop some negligence theories under almost any fact pattern. Collectibility might be an issue as always with uninsured, but hey with bankruptcy "deforms" of 2005 means I can keep chasing the employer. Plus its foolish, at least here, to rely on the "independant contractor" argument. Here it takes alot more than a 1099 to establish someone as an IC.

Yeah, and I don't know about some of these guys coming from other countries. They sneek in with people already living here. Some are armed. Most are uneducated and coming for work. They bring disease. They just set up right in the middle of your nieghborhood and it goes to crap. They come across water or sneak in through canada. They refuse to learn the native language. They claim a God given right to be here.
Oh, wait, geez, I'm sorry. I was thinking of the Colonists. Silly me. Too bad that John Smith or Hudson Bay Company didn't go back to where they came from.

Sorry, but I don't think times have changed that much from 400 years ago. We are an unusual country with an unusual history as to how we acquired our populace. Just because some people declare we are full doesn't mean we should close the door. If we did that, the door would have closed a long time ago and I know I wouldn' t be here because people have been declaring America "full" for centuries.

[SlumpBuster]

Oh, and while I'm at it:

We should also annex Canada and Mexico and Central America. It shouldn't be too hard, all the states and provinces already have names. And we'll call it our "Manifest Destiny." I think it has a nice ring.

The great thing about bull**** political distractions like immigration, is that they are really just recycled from the past. The dirty Irish are taking our jobs!!! Hell, I was watching a rerun of Good Times last night and there were jokes about gas prices.

[GMichael]

I don't think that is much protection for an employer. I don't know how it works in your neck of the woods, but failure to maintain workers comp insurance under a no-fault regime opens you up to direct negligence suits. If these guys get hurt on the job through employer negligence and workers comp doesn't apply, then great, we'll sue the employer directly. Chances are if your the kind of employer that skirts the law regarding insurance requirements and employing illegals, chances are I'll be able to develop some negligence theories under almost any fact pattern. Collectibility might be an issue as always with uninsured, but hey with bankruptcy "deforms" of 2005 means I can keep chasing the employer. Plus its foolish, at least here, to rely on the "independant contractor" argument. Here it takes alot more than a 1099 to establish someone as an IC.

Yeah, and I don't know about some of these guys coming from other countries. They sneek in with people already living here. Some are armed. Most are uneducated and coming for work. They bring disease. They just set up right in the middle of your nieghborhood and it goes to crap. They come across water or sneak in through canada. They refuse to learn the native language. They claim a God given right to be here.
Oh, wait, geez, I'm sorry. I was thinking of the Colonists. Silly me. Too bad that John Smith or Hudson Bay Company didn't go back to where they came from.

Sorry, but I don't think times have changed that much from 400 years ago. We are an unusual country with an unusual history as to how we acquired our populace. Just because some people declare we are full doesn't mean we should close the door. If we did that, the door would have closed a long time ago and I know I wouldn' t be here because people have been declaring America "full" for centuries.

I don't want to lock all the doors. I just want them to ring the doorbell before they walk in my house uninvited, open the fridge and start drinking my beer. Wait till I offer.

[SlumpBuster]

I don't want to lock all the doors. I just want them to ring the doorbell before they walk in my house uninvited, open the fridge and start drinking my beer. Wait till I offer.

I see your frustration, especially as a guy who followed the rules only to see the prospect of the next guy just skating through.

But, they are invited, maybe not expressly. But every person that employs illegals is implicitly inviting them with the prospect of work. Our economic reliance on them is an invite. I don't see them as coming into my house and drinking my beer. Picking fruit for $150/week is more like coming into my backyard at night and surviving on my garbage scraps; I'm not going to see it, and I'm not going to miss what you take. Who am I to begrudge a person the legal status to do it?

[GMichael]

I see your frustration, especially as a guy who followed the rules only to see the prospect of the next guy just skating through.

But, they are invited, maybe not expressly. But every person that employs illegals is implicitly inviting them with the prospect of work. Our economic reliance on them is an invite. I don't see them as coming into my house and drinking my beer. Picking fruit for $150/week is more like coming into my backyard at night and surviving on my garbage scraps; I'm not going to see it, and I'm not going to miss what you take. Who am I to begrudge a person the legal status to do it?

The people who employ the illegal's are the biggest criminals in this circle IMO.
I have nothing against anyone coming here to better themselves, whether it be by picking apples, chopping meat or being a CEO. But I have a friend who owns a large apple farm here in NY. He has legal immigrants working on his farm every summer/fall. They still work for lower wages than someone who grew up here would. But they take the time to do it right. I even see a lot of the same faces every year.

Being here illegally should not be an acceptable reason to skip over the process. I would be willing to say, OK, you got over on us and we used you. Let's call it even and start over. But start from the start. Do not go to the front of the line. My wife still has to wait three more years before she can even apply for citizenship. She's been here 4 years legally. Where's her free pass?

One of the lines on the citizenship test is, Who is entitled to the constitutional rights in the USA? The answer is, everyone, citizens and aliens whether here legally or not are protected by our laws. Maybe that's just a BS line on the test, but everyone is supposed to be entitled to their rights here. And if (or more likely, when) illegals are being treated unfairly, I'll be on their side every bit of the way. They shouldn't have to deal with people talking down to them (although people do that to me too) or substandard wages or no benefits etc. Just please, fill out the forms, get in line, and don't use the excuse of being here for years as a reason to jump to the head of the line.

[dean_martin]

I don't think that is much protection for an employer. I don't know how it works in your neck of the woods, but failure to maintain workers comp insurance under a no-fault regime opens you up to direct negligence suits. If these guys get hurt on the job through employer negligence and workers comp doesn't apply, then great, we'll sue the employer directly. Chances are if your the kind of employer that skirts the law regarding insurance requirements and employing illegals, chances are I'll be able to develop some negligence theories under almost any fact pattern. Collectibility might be an issue as always with uninsured, but hey with bankruptcy "deforms" of 2005 means I can keep chasing the employer. Plus its foolish, at least here, to rely on the "independant contractor" argument. Here it takes alot more than a 1099 to establish someone as an IC.

Ok, first of all, you can go and get a judgment against some slick as snot employer and chase him around until you get your money. In the meantime, workers' comp would have paid for your client's surgery, his follow-up care and given him a little money to keep the lights on. Workers' comp is woefully inadequate, but when you have a worker with no health insurance who needs serious and expensive medical care, it's better to have the bird in the hand rather than the two in the bush. Do you think a jury in an employer liability suit is going to be inclined to award adequate damages to an illegal alien? Maybe in "your neck of the woods" but not mine.

Maybe my independent contractor reference needs a few more details. I was thinking, but did not take the time to explain very well, of a construction setting in which you have a developer or builder that hires independent contractors to perform the work. The independent contractor has its own employees. If the IC has less than a certain # of employees then he's exempt from comp requirements and believe me many of them either lie or keep their numbers to the limit to avoid paying comp premiums. I have just such a case now where there's no comp insurance even though the employer exceeded the limit and no applicable general liability insurance and the employee has undergone 2 surgeries paid for by state-subsidized All-Kids insurance. To top it off the employer violated child labor laws in hiring this kid to do the work he was doing. The employer is either in bankruptcy or has just come out of bankruptcy, but a judgment against him won't be worth the paper it's written on. So, I'm going after the builder/developer for comp benefits. The court threw out our negligence claims against the developer, but left us a shot at comp benefits. The main issue is whether the worker is an "employee" of the developer for comp purposes.

Anyhow, I didn't want to go too far off course here, but to not have to count an illegal alien as an employee is an incentive for some to hire them if it will keep their comp premiums down.

[SlumpBuster]

Ok, first of all, you can go and get a judgment against some slick as snot employer and chase him around until you get your money. In the meantime, workers' comp would have paid for your client's surgery, his follow-up care and given him a little money to keep the lights on. Workers' comp is woefully inadequate, but when you have a worker with no health insurance who needs serious and expensive medical care, it's better to have the bird in the hand rather than the two in the bush. Do you think a jury in an employer liability suit is going to be inclined to award adequate damages to an illegal alien? Maybe in "your neck of the woods" but not mine.

I think your right on the money. One in the hand vs. two in the bush is the foundation of any good no fault system. My point was that employer still has exposure. And an illegal alien isn't getting fair treatment at all these days in any woods. (BTW, I hope my "neck of the woods" phrasing didn't come off as snotty, I didn't mean it to. I really do only have a limited knowledge of workers comp)

But, I think your ideas ask a bigger question thats right in line with the thread: Is an illegal alien entitled to equal treatment under the law?

Resident Loser says "you're here illegally, you have no rights." Okay, does that mean I also have forfieted my human rights or just constitutional rights. What if I'm accused of a crime while I'm here, do I have the right to a trial? What if I'm English and I have overstayed a visa, is that different than coming over with a coyote from Mexico?

If we are a nation of laws, not men, and no man is above the law, then how can a person be below the law?

I've always thought that there was alot of wisdom in the maxim that the measure of a society is gauged by how it treats it weakest and most vulnerable members. Its not often that I agree with President Bush, but here I do. Undocumented immigrants are undeniably important, valuable, and contributing members of our society. But, they are also weak and vulnerable. Good for them that they are finding a voice.

[dean_martin]

I think your right on the money. One in the hand vs. two in the bush is the foundation of any good no fault system. My point was that employer still has exposure. And an illegal alien isn't getting fair treatment at all these days in any woods. (BTW, I hope my "neck of the woods" phrasing didn't come off as snotty, I didn't mean it to. I really do only have a limited knowledge of workers comp)

But, I think your ideas ask a bigger question thats right in line with the thread: Is an illegal alien entitled to equal treatment under the law?

Resident Loser says "you're here illegally, you have no rights." Okay, does that mean I also have forfieted my human rights or just constitutional rights. What if I'm accused of a crime while I'm here, do I have the right to a trial? What if I'm English and I have overstayed a visa, is that different than coming over with a coyote from Mexico?

If we are a nation of laws, not men, and no man is above the law, then how can a person be below the law?

I've always thought that there was alot of wisdom in the maxim that the measure of a society is gauged by how it treats it weakest and most vulnerable members. Its not often that I agree with President Bush, but here I do. Undocumented immigrants are undeniably important, valuable, and contributing members of our society. But, they are also weak and vulnerable. Good for them that they are finding a voice.

Yep, you're right. Generally, when an employer who is required to carry workers' comp doesn't, they've exposed themselves to common law negligence claims and penalties. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, some legal and some practical or economic. And no, SB, I didn't think your "neck of the woods" comment was snotty. I lashed out a little because I injected one of my cases as an example. AR is supposed to be an escape for me. I usually don't discuss my job here unless it's election time which is usually accompanied by lawyer bashing.

In fact, the "your neck of the woods" comment is particularly relevant because many of the issues facing illegal immigrants have been and will be decided on a state-by-state basis. National uniformity will take a while.

I may pull out my old Constitutional Law text tomorrow to see what protections, if any, have already been afforded aliens by US Supreme Court decisions. I think I remember trial by jury in criminal cases, maybe 4th Amendment search and seizure issues and the right to a primary education have been addressed.

Interestingly, I think the language issue has been addressed. If I remember correctly, there was a case out of Alabama in which the US Supreme Court said that a state could not limit its driver license test to English only.

I think Congress has come up with a plan that places aliens in categories according to the number of years they've been here - 5 years, 2 to 5 years and under 2 years. I have no idea how someone who's been flying under radar can prove they've been here for 5 years. Other than that observation, I have no opinion on the plan yet.

[GMichael]

Interestingly, I think the language issue has been addressed. If I remember correctly, there was a case out of Alabama in which the US Supreme Court said that a state could not limit its driver license test to English only.

I think Congress has come up with a plan that places aliens in categories according to the number of years they've been here - 5 years, 2 to 5 years and under 2 years. I have no idea how someone who's been flying under radar can prove they've been here for 5 years. Other than that observation, I have no opinion on the plan yet.

Hi Dean,

Thanks for your informed input on this thread. It's great to read your take of the situation.

Still, they don't offer the driver license test in Tagalog or Visian. My wife would have loved that. Good thing she learned English.

I still don't think that being here for a "long time" is a basis for moving up in the process. My wife has been here 4 years already and has to wait 3 more to even apply.

[dean_martin]

Hi Dean,

Thanks for your informed input on this thread. It's great to read your take of the situation.

Still, they don't offer the driver license test in Tagalog or Visian. My wife would have loved that. Good thing she learned English.

I still don't think that being here for a "long time" is a basis for moving up in the process. My wife has been here 4 years already and has to wait 3 more to even apply.

Hey GM - my wish is that whatever Congress does it helps your family (and all those who've been going about the process the right way).

[GMichael]

Hey GM - my wish is that whatever Congress does it helps your family (and all those who've been going about the process the right way).

Thanks Dean,

I don't think that anything they do now will hurt us at this point. May just piss my wife off a bit. I'd like to see that whatever they do turns out to be fair to everyone. But as my Dad told me, "Who ever told you that life would be fair? It sure wasn't me."