Should illegal aliens all be made citizens?

[dean_martin]

I think your right on the money. One in the hand vs. two in the bush is the foundation of any good no fault system. My point was that employer still has exposure. And an illegal alien isn't getting fair treatment at all these days in any woods. (BTW, I hope my "neck of the woods" phrasing didn't come off as snotty, I didn't mean it to. I really do only have a limited knowledge of workers comp)

But, I think your ideas ask a bigger question thats right in line with the thread: Is an illegal alien entitled to equal treatment under the law?

Resident Loser says "you're here illegally, you have no rights." Okay, does that mean I also have forfieted my human rights or just constitutional rights. What if I'm accused of a crime while I'm here, do I have the right to a trial? What if I'm English and I have overstayed a visa, is that different than coming over with a coyote from Mexico?

If we are a nation of laws, not men, and no man is above the law, then how can a person be below the law?

I've always thought that there was alot of wisdom in the maxim that the measure of a society is gauged by how it treats it weakest and most vulnerable members. Its not often that I agree with President Bush, but here I do. Undocumented immigrants are undeniably important, valuable, and contributing members of our society. But, they are also weak and vulnerable. Good for them that they are finding a voice.

Yep, you're right. Generally, when an employer who is required to carry workers' comp doesn't, they've exposed themselves to common law negligence claims and penalties. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, some legal and some practical or economic. And no, SB, I didn't think your "neck of the woods" comment was snotty. I lashed out a little because I injected one of my cases as an example. AR is supposed to be an escape for me. I usually don't discuss my job here unless it's election time which is usually accompanied by lawyer bashing.

In fact, the "your neck of the woods" comment is particularly relevant because many of the issues facing illegal immigrants have been and will be decided on a state-by-state basis. National uniformity will take a while.

I may pull out my old Constitutional Law text tomorrow to see what protections, if any, have already been afforded aliens by US Supreme Court decisions. I think I remember trial by jury in criminal cases, maybe 4th Amendment search and seizure issues and the right to a primary education have been addressed.

Interestingly, I think the language issue has been addressed. If I remember correctly, there was a case out of Alabama in which the US Supreme Court said that a state could not limit its driver license test to English only.

I think Congress has come up with a plan that places aliens in categories according to the number of years they've been here - 5 years, 2 to 5 years and under 2 years. I have no idea how someone who's been flying under radar can prove they've been here for 5 years. Other than that observation, I have no opinion on the plan yet.

[GMichael]

I see your frustration, especially as a guy who followed the rules only to see the prospect of the next guy just skating through.

But, they are invited, maybe not expressly. But every person that employs illegals is implicitly inviting them with the prospect of work. Our economic reliance on them is an invite. I don't see them as coming into my house and drinking my beer. Picking fruit for $150/week is more like coming into my backyard at night and surviving on my garbage scraps; I'm not going to see it, and I'm not going to miss what you take. Who am I to begrudge a person the legal status to do it?

The people who employ the illegal's are the biggest criminals in this circle IMO.
I have nothing against anyone coming here to better themselves, whether it be by picking apples, chopping meat or being a CEO. But I have a friend who owns a large apple farm here in NY. He has legal immigrants working on his farm every summer/fall. They still work for lower wages than someone who grew up here would. But they take the time to do it right. I even see a lot of the same faces every year.

Being here illegally should not be an acceptable reason to skip over the process. I would be willing to say, OK, you got over on us and we used you. Let's call it even and start over. But start from the start. Do not go to the front of the line. My wife still has to wait three more years before she can even apply for citizenship. She's been here 4 years legally. Where's her free pass?

One of the lines on the citizenship test is, Who is entitled to the constitutional rights in the USA? The answer is, everyone, citizens and aliens whether here legally or not are protected by our laws. Maybe that's just a BS line on the test, but everyone is supposed to be entitled to their rights here. And if (or more likely, when) illegals are being treated unfairly, I'll be on their side every bit of the way. They shouldn't have to deal with people talking down to them (although people do that to me too) or substandard wages or no benefits etc. Just please, fill out the forms, get in line, and don't use the excuse of being here for years as a reason to jump to the head of the line.

[GMichael]

Interestingly, I think the language issue has been addressed. If I remember correctly, there was a case out of Alabama in which the US Supreme Court said that a state could not limit its driver license test to English only.

I think Congress has come up with a plan that places aliens in categories according to the number of years they've been here - 5 years, 2 to 5 years and under 2 years. I have no idea how someone who's been flying under radar can prove they've been here for 5 years. Other than that observation, I have no opinion on the plan yet.

Hi Dean,

Thanks for your informed input on this thread. It's great to read your take of the situation.

Still, they don't offer the driver license test in Tagalog or Visian. My wife would have loved that. Good thing she learned English.

I still don't think that being here for a "long time" is a basis for moving up in the process. My wife has been here 4 years already and has to wait 3 more to even apply.

[shokhead]

Why does Bush bend over for Fox?

[GMichael]

Why does Bush bend over for Fox?

I'd bend over for the right fox.

[markw]

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...

There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

[Resident Loser]

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...

There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

...the ACLU and others of their ilk would be all over TR like white on rice for those sentiments...

jimHJJ(...I have seen the future, I'm glad I'll be dead!...)

[dean_martin]

Hi Dean,

Thanks for your informed input on this thread. It's great to read your take of the situation.

Still, they don't offer the driver license test in Tagalog or Visian. My wife would have loved that. Good thing she learned English.

I still don't think that being here for a "long time" is a basis for moving up in the process. My wife has been here 4 years already and has to wait 3 more to even apply.

Hey GM - my wish is that whatever Congress does it helps your family (and all those who've been going about the process the right way).

[GMichael]

Hey GM - my wish is that whatever Congress does it helps your family (and all those who've been going about the process the right way).

Thanks Dean,

I don't think that anything they do now will hurt us at this point. May just piss my wife off a bit. I'd like to see that whatever they do turns out to be fair to everyone. But as my Dad told me, "Who ever told you that life would be fair? It sure wasn't me."

[Resident Loser]

...But as my Dad told me, "Who ever told you that life would be fair? It sure wasn't me."

Fair is a place where pigs and pies win blue ribbons...

jimHJJ(...but then again I was always a bit off...)

[shokhead]

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...

There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Dreaming. I would say 95% of the kids i know tell me there parents wont speak or learn english and the kids are only allowed to speak spanish at home. Even if they become legal,they do not want to be known as an American,never. They belive this is there's that was taken away from them and now they are taking it back and we owe them. Now i'm getting this from a K-5 school of 1200 students which is around 65-70% spanish. I know the students,there older brothers and sisters,there cousins and parents.

[GMichael]

Dreaming. I would say 95% of the kids i know tell me there parents wont speak or learn english and the kids are only allowed to speak spanish at home. Even if they become legal,they do not want to be known as an American,never. They belive this is there's that was taken away from them and now they are taking it back and we owe them. Now i'm getting this from a K-5 school of 1200 students which is around 65-70% spanish. I know the students,there older brothers and sisters,there cousins and parents.

This is very upsetting. If they don't want to be known as Americans then they should not be living here. Am I the only one who has a problem with this?
My grandmother on my mother's side was born in Italy. She never learned English well. But she tried. And she sent her children to school to learn English. My wife was born in the Philippines. Many of her friends here were also born there. Every one of them has learned English and all of their kids speak it fluently. They still love their old country. But they are proud to be called Americans as well.

[daviethek]

The great thing about bull**** political distractions like immigration, is that they are really just recycled from the past. The dirty Irish are taking our jobs!!! Hell, I was watching a rerun of Good Times last night and there were jokes about gas prices.

Good point. Since we are near the mid-term elections, I expect the ***** marriage issue to magically re-surface. When things aint goin right, make them afraid of something. Illegal immigration exists because of supply and demand. There is plenty of fault all along the supply chain...always has been. . . I see nothing wrong with the visiting worker program. Somebody needs immunity. give it to the workers since the employers already have it. Someone has to gut those chickens.