Islam: Our Partners in Peace...

[Mr Peabody]

Thanks FA for clarifying for me. I should have known if any one here would respect another's belief it would be you.

[JohnMichael]

Respect should be mutual. If you would like your beliefs respected please respect those who share different beliefs.

[ForeverAutumn]

Thanks FA for clarifying for me. I should have known if any one here would respect another's belief it would be you.

I try very hard to be a tolerant person. I think that it's an important trait for everyone. If there was more tolerance in the world, there would be a lot less senseless death and less problems in general. I also learned a long time ago that arguing with someone over religion is futile. You have your beliefs and I have mine. It is something that we will never see eye-to-eye on, so what's the sense arguing over it. I'll never change anyone's beliefs just as they will never change mine. So instead of arguing, I accept our differences and instead spend my time trying to understand what makes people of faith feel so strongly about something that is so intangible.

[Feanor]

I try very hard to be a tolerant person. I think that it's an important trait for everyone. If there was more tolerance in the world, there would be a lot less senseless death and less problems in general. I also learned a long time ago that arguing with someone over religion is futile. You have your beliefs and I have mine. It is something that we will never see eye-to-eye on, so what's the sense arguing over it. I'll never change anyone's beliefs just as they will never change mine. So instead of arguing, I accept our differences and instead spend my time trying to understand what makes people of faith feel so strongly about something that is so intangible.

Wise people used to say, "Never argue religion or politics".

Good advice still if you goal is to maintain civility, but it's hard to resist when you know dogmatic religion and right-wing politics are destroying the world.

[JohnMichael]

Good advice still if you goal is to maintain civility, but it's hard to resist when you know dogmatic religion and right-wing politics are destroying the world.

Yes and being used to deny others their rights.

[markw]

Wise people used to say, "Never argue religion or politics".

Good advice still if you goal is to maintain civility, but it's hard to resist when you know dogmatic religion and right-wing politics are destroying the world.

Some might say that left wing politics are bankrupting europe even as we speak. not to mention the dictatorships in the middle east, africa, NK, etc, etc...

[Feanor]

Some might say that left wing politics are bankrupting europe even as we speak. not to mention the dictatorships in the middle east, africa, NK, etc, etc...

The Left-Right discussion is off this particular off-topic discussion. So sufficient to say that some "left wing" countries have gotten into trouble due to continual fiscal deficits, (Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Spain), some have not, e.g. Scandinavian countries, Netherlands, Denmark, Iceland, etc.. The usual reason for fiscal deficits is the failure to tax the middle and, especially, the wealthy classes -- of course, that's true too for the USA which isn't left-wing by any stretch of the imagination.

[markw]

The Left-Right discussion is off this particular off-topic discussion.

Perhaps, but if YOU had not brought it up here,:

Wise people used to say, "Never argue religion or politics".

Good advice still if you goal is to maintain civility, but it's hard to resist when you know dogmatic religion and right-wing politics are destroying the world.

...I would not have had cause to comment, would I? I know, I know... you just want to be able to throw out your little digs and quietly retreat into the distance, eh? A bit cowardly, isn't that? But, considering the source, it's not really surprising. It looks like that inflated ego of yours just won't let you drop an issue, shut up and move on, will it? So much for your show of wisdom, eh?

So sufficient to say that some "left wing" countries have gotten into trouble due to continual fiscal deficits, (Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Spain), some have not anywhere nearly the same extent, e.g. Scandinavian countries, Netherlands, Denmark, France, etc.. The usual reason for fiscal deficits is the failure to tax the middle and, especially, the wealthy classes -- of course, that's true too for the USA which isn't left-wing by any stretch of the imagination.

So, what's your point? Too many entitlements and not enough workers to pay for it. Remember, not all countries have a benevelont big brother directly to their south who they can hide behind. They are creaking under their own weight and can't go on forever.

And, to being this discussion back to it's original intent, you'll notice that the muslim incursion into the fabric of the european nations seems to be centered in the left-leaning nations. Looking at it that way, the more right they are, the less the threat seems to be, at least for now.

So, it looks like the right wing may actually be the salvation of the "free" world and, for the time being, that includes canada if they play ball.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

So, it looks like the right wing may actually be the salvation of the "free" world and, for the time being, that includes canada if they play ball.

I guess if you look at the world through very tinted glasses, this would be true. I can't see clearly through those things, so I have no use for them.

[Feanor]

...
And, to being this discussion back to it's original intent, you'll notice that the muslim incursion into the fabric of the european nations seems to be centered in the left-leaning nations. Looking at it that way, the more right they are, the less the threat seems to be, at least for now.
...

I guess your concerns about Muslims in the the US are unfounded then?

...
So, it looks like the right wing may actually be the salvation of the "free" world and, for the time being, that includes canada if they play ball.

This is a non sequitur. Conditions in western nations, especially but not exclusively the USA, have become more and more right-wing since the late '70s at least. Here by "right-wing" I mean more perfectly capitalist, viz.

• More competitive, domestic and international
• More legally & financially consistent internationally, i.e. "free trade" treaties
• More innovative in terms of products & services
• More innovative in terms of production, logistic, and marketing technologies
• Less commercial regulation
• Less powerful labor unions
• Lower, (much lower), taxes on the wealthy.

Yet despite this "progress", the incomes of the poor and most of the middle class have declined. Their standards of living has been sustained only by (1) working spouses and working longer hours, (2) borrowing, and (3) cheap goods manufactured off-shore. Meanwhile the incomes of top 1% have increased exponentially.

During this 35 year interval, it's ironic but ultimately not surprising that deficits have increased most rapidly in the during conservative Republic administrations.

If you ideas were't so dominated by ideology, mythology, and religious bigotry, you might recognize these facts.

[bobsticks]

Pe
So, what's your point? Too many entitlements and not enough workers to pay for it...

Too bad y'all didn't think of that when you invented social security...are those entitlements part of the "tough love"?


Ooops, I went off topic in the Off Topic...

[Hyfi]

Thanks FA for clarifying for me. I should have known if any one here would respect another's belief it would be you.

See that is not very fair. I may question peoples beliefs, but I will never tell you what to believe, or tell anyone that they are wrong because they don't believe what I do. However, the stance of Christianity and it's followers is to tell everyone that their way is the only way and the right way. If you don't believe it then God will strike you down, leave you behind, send you to hell or whatever other scare tactic they choose to use to convert you. I take offense to that.

As I said earlier, my belief is that ALL religions are just different pathways to the same God. It should not matter what your belief is, as long as that is what gets you through the day and you treat people with love and respect.

Christianity is one of the mast recent religions to be made up. What about all the people of other beliefs from thousands of years before Christianity was invented? Are they all in Hell? How is it that the last religion to be thought up is the only right one?

I am not an Atheist but I also do not agree that you need to follow rituals, special rules, and exclusiveness to be a good and spiritual person. If one needs organized religion to get them through the day, great go for it. I have friends of all faiths/religions and some with none. I really don't care. But when people want to start quoting the Bible and forcing their beliefs on others and myself, it gets me worked up. I will always question things in my path. I have been to almost every christian denomination service, as well as Jewish, Quaker and more.

I also don't have a lot of respect for any Religion that kills people in the name of God. Christianity has done it many times as well as other religions.

I have read enough books on Religion as well as the better part of the Bible. The only way that I can get anything out of it is through the books written by Emanual Swedenbog as cited earlier. There is too much proff that the Bible was constructed, translated and made to say what it says for me to buy into it.

Do I believe Jesus was a man who lived? Yes I do. But he also did not say or teach anything different than Buddha said and taught many many years before him. Read a book called Jesus - Buddha. Many people have taught the way of Love and Harmony.

[ForeverAutumn]

See that is not very fair. I may question peoples beliefs, but I will never tell you what to believe, or tell anyone that they are wrong because they don't believe what I do. However, the stance of Christianity and it's followers is to tell everyone that their way is the only way and the right way. If you don't believe it then God will strike you down, leave you behind, send you to hell or whatever other scare tactic they choose to use to convert you. I take offense to that.

Please don't mistake my acceptance of someone's right to believe as acceptance of their beliefs.

I don't agree with many of the things being said in this discussion. And I also take offence to many of them. Most religious arguments are based on illogical premises, as are many of the points in this thread. And although I could try to argue the point with logic, it would get me nowhere. Logic is not a part of religion. That's where "faith" comes in. Something doesn't have to be logical or empirical if you only have "faith" that it can be so.

If this discussion were more philosophical in nature I might participate more. But so far, what I see is people in conflict...nobody is trying to understand the other person's point of view but everybody is trying hard to convince the others of their own POV. I have no interest in trying to force my POV on anybody. Discussions of that nature will almost always end in stalemates, so why expend the energy?

It is entertaining reading however.

[Hyfi]

Please don't mistake my acceptance of someone's right to believe as acceptance of their beliefs.

I don't agree with many of the things being said in this discussion. And I also take offence to many of them. Most religious arguments are based on illogical premises, as are many of the points in this thread. And although I could try to argue the point with logic, it would get me nowhere. Logic is not a part of religion. That's where "faith" comes in. Something doesn't have to be logical or empirical if you only have "faith" that it can be so.

If this discussion were more philosophical in nature I might participate more. But so far, what I see is people in conflict...nobody is trying to understand the other person's point of view but everybody is trying hard to convince the others of their own POV. I have no interest in trying to force my POV on anybody. Discussions of that nature will almost always end in stalemates, so why expend the energy?

It is entertaining reading however.

The response you quoted was to the assumption that you may be the only one here that is accepting of others choices.

And no, you can hardly have a Logical conversation about religion since the basis of any religion is Faith and not what is Logical.

I would love to know why others believe what they do aside from just telling us that "That is what the book says and you believe it or you don't". That is the brainwashed answer and not an individuals choice and belief.

I would also like to know how people like yourself chalk the whole thing up to mere chance. (if that is how you see it. One does not have to believe in the Main Stream God to accept that there are some pretty strong spiritual forces at work all the time. You can help create the outcomes of certain situations with the power of mind and thought, until someone elses will gets in your way.

[ForeverAutumn]

I would also like to know how people like yourself chalk the whole thing up to mere chance. (if that is how you see it. One does not have to believe in the Main Stream God to accept that there are some pretty strong spiritual forces at work all the time. You can help create the outcomes of certain situations with the power of mind and thought, until someone elses will gets in your way.

I don't really know what I chalk things up to. I know that I don't believe that some unseen, unknown spiritual force created the world. I suppose it was something scientific. But I don't really feel the need to know. Someday there may be conclusive evidence or maybe not. I'm okay either way. There are lots of things in the universe that I don't understand. Hell, at one time everyone thought that the world was flat, then one day that was proven false and the world was round. Scientists discover new things everyday. Nothing irks me more than a religious person answering an unknown with the statement, "it is gods will" or "god's plan". That's just a copout IMO. It's okay to say you don't know or understand something.

As for creating the outcomes of certain situations, I believe that people make thier own choices and those choices form the outcome of their lives. Nothing is truer to me than the Rush lyric, "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice". I can take any event in my life and provide the string of decisions that I made that led me to that event. In some cases the decisions were entirely mine (breaking up with a boyfriend to date my future husband) and in some cases the decisions were intertwined with other peoples decisions (my boss's decision to offer me a job, my decision to accept). Every movement that you make is a choice and you, and only you, control those decisions.

That is my philosophy.

[Feanor]

...

I would also like to know how people like yourself chalk the whole thing up to mere chance. (if that is how you see it. One does not have to believe in the Main Stream God to accept that there are some pretty strong spiritual forces at work all the time. ....

Like FA, I guess, I don't believe in the necessity of "spiritual forces" to exlain the universe and evolution.

Some say that the complex universe couldn't have come from nothing but needed "intelligent designer" (i.e. god, mainstream or otherwise). The standard, reductionist response to this is, where did the intelligent designer come from?

The other thing to consider is that evolution of species is not a matter of "mere chance". Chance has a role to play, but evolution causes chance changes that work to survive and those that don't to perish -- evolution isn't chance, it's a process. (In this regard, read Richard Dawkin's argument in The God Delusion.)