Islam: Our Partners in Peace...

[Hyfi]

Please don't mistake my acceptance of someone's right to believe as acceptance of their beliefs.

I don't agree with many of the things being said in this discussion. And I also take offence to many of them. Most religious arguments are based on illogical premises, as are many of the points in this thread. And although I could try to argue the point with logic, it would get me nowhere. Logic is not a part of religion. That's where "faith" comes in. Something doesn't have to be logical or empirical if you only have "faith" that it can be so.

If this discussion were more philosophical in nature I might participate more. But so far, what I see is people in conflict...nobody is trying to understand the other person's point of view but everybody is trying hard to convince the others of their own POV. I have no interest in trying to force my POV on anybody. Discussions of that nature will almost always end in stalemates, so why expend the energy?

It is entertaining reading however.

The response you quoted was to the assumption that you may be the only one here that is accepting of others choices.

And no, you can hardly have a Logical conversation about religion since the basis of any religion is Faith and not what is Logical.

I would love to know why others believe what they do aside from just telling us that "That is what the book says and you believe it or you don't". That is the brainwashed answer and not an individuals choice and belief.

I would also like to know how people like yourself chalk the whole thing up to mere chance. (if that is how you see it. One does not have to believe in the Main Stream God to accept that there are some pretty strong spiritual forces at work all the time. You can help create the outcomes of certain situations with the power of mind and thought, until someone elses will gets in your way.

[ForeverAutumn]

I would also like to know how people like yourself chalk the whole thing up to mere chance. (if that is how you see it. One does not have to believe in the Main Stream God to accept that there are some pretty strong spiritual forces at work all the time. You can help create the outcomes of certain situations with the power of mind and thought, until someone elses will gets in your way.

I don't really know what I chalk things up to. I know that I don't believe that some unseen, unknown spiritual force created the world. I suppose it was something scientific. But I don't really feel the need to know. Someday there may be conclusive evidence or maybe not. I'm okay either way. There are lots of things in the universe that I don't understand. Hell, at one time everyone thought that the world was flat, then one day that was proven false and the world was round. Scientists discover new things everyday. Nothing irks me more than a religious person answering an unknown with the statement, "it is gods will" or "god's plan". That's just a copout IMO. It's okay to say you don't know or understand something.

As for creating the outcomes of certain situations, I believe that people make thier own choices and those choices form the outcome of their lives. Nothing is truer to me than the Rush lyric, "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice". I can take any event in my life and provide the string of decisions that I made that led me to that event. In some cases the decisions were entirely mine (breaking up with a boyfriend to date my future husband) and in some cases the decisions were intertwined with other peoples decisions (my boss's decision to offer me a job, my decision to accept). Every movement that you make is a choice and you, and only you, control those decisions.

That is my philosophy.

[Feanor]

...

I would also like to know how people like yourself chalk the whole thing up to mere chance. (if that is how you see it. One does not have to believe in the Main Stream God to accept that there are some pretty strong spiritual forces at work all the time. ....

Like FA, I guess, I don't believe in the necessity of "spiritual forces" to exlain the universe and evolution.

Some say that the complex universe couldn't have come from nothing but needed "intelligent designer" (i.e. god, mainstream or otherwise). The standard, reductionist response to this is, where did the intelligent designer come from?

The other thing to consider is that evolution of species is not a matter of "mere chance". Chance has a role to play, but evolution causes chance changes that work to survive and those that don't to perish -- evolution isn't chance, it's a process. (In this regard, read Richard Dawkin's argument in The God Delusion.)