• 09-07-2009, 07:51 AM
    bobsticks
    Islam: Our Partners in Peace...
    Form the AOL homepage

    Think of the amazing progress made...they're actually considering an overall worldview, the ramifications, and natural law vis-a-vis human rights...'tis a dawning of a new age...

    KHARTOUM, Sudan (Sept. 7) - A Sudanese judge convicted a woman journalist on Monday for violating the public indecency law by wearing trousers outdoors and fined her $200, but did not impose a feared flogging penalty.
    Lubna Hussein was among 13 women arrested July 3 in a raid by the public order police in Khartoum. Ten of the women were fined and flogged two days later. But Hussein and two others decided to go to trial.

    "I will not pay a penny," she told the Associated Press while still in court custody, wearing the same trousers that had sparked her arrest.
    Hussein said Friday she would rather go to jail than pay any fine, out of protest of the nation's strict laws on women's dress.
    "I won't pay, as a matter of principle," she said. "I would spend a month in jail. It is a chance to explore the conditions in jail."
    The case has made headlines in Sudan and around the world and Hussein used it to rally world opinion against the country's morality laws based on a strict interpretation of Islam.
    Galal al-Sayed, Hussein's lawyer, said he advised her to pay the fine before appealing the decision. She refused, he said, "She insisted."
    The lawyer said the judge ignored his request to present defense witnesses.
    "The ruling is incorrect," he said, adding that the prosecution witnesses gave contradictory statements.
    Al-Sayed said the judge had the option of choosing flogging, but apparently opted for fine to avoid international criticism. "There is a general sentiment in the world that flogging is humiliating."
    Ahead of the trial, police rounded up dozens of female demonstrators, many of them wearing trousers, outside the courtroom.
    The London-based Amnesty International on Friday called on the Sudanese government to withdraw the charges against Hussein and repeal the law which justifies "abhorrent" penalties.
    Human rights and political groups in Sudan say the law is in violation of the 2005 constitution drafted after a peace deal ended two decades of war between the predominantly Muslim north and the Christian and animist south Sudan.
    The Amnesty statement said Sudan had been urged to amend the law which permits flogging, on the grounds that it is state-sanctioned torture, after eight women were flogged in public in 2003 with plastic and metal whips leaving permanent scars on the women. The women had been picnicking with male friends.
    As a U.N. staffer, Hussein should have immunity from prosecution but she has opted to resign so that she could stand trial and draw attention to the case.
    In a column published in the British daily the Guardian Friday, Hussein said her case is not an isolated one, but is a showcase of repressive laws in a country with a long history of civil conflicts.
    "When I think of my trial, I pray that my daughters will never live in fear of these police ... We will only be secure once the police protect us and these laws are repealed," she wrote.
    Hussein said earlier she would take the issue all the way to Sudan's Constitutional Court necessary, but that if the court rules against her and orders the flogging, she's ready "to receive (even) 40,000 lashes" if that what it takes to abolish the law.
    El Deeb reported from Cairo.
    Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. Active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.
    2009-09-07 09:02:09
  • 09-07-2009, 09:08 AM
    Feanor
    Sharia law in Ontario
    For a time serious consideration was given to permitting Sharia law to govern civil contracts between consenting individuals in the province of Ontario.

    As I recall it was justified on the basis that it wasn't essentially different than have publically sponsored Catholic schools or the voluntary special criminal courts permited for status aboriginals. However the proposal was eventually rejected on the grounds (1) that the province simply didn't need two sets of laws, and (2) that the civil contracts in question would be predominently marriage contracts that would be discriminatory against women relative to the common law.
  • 09-07-2009, 04:02 PM
    Mr Peabody
    The judge should have just ordered the flogging and put it to rest. She has essentially already won.

    For some reason Bob Seger's song Her Strut just came to mind.

    Think of the endorsement money from jeans companies after this.
  • 09-07-2009, 04:23 PM
    02audionoob
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    The judge should have just ordered the flogging

    Do you really believe that?
  • 09-07-2009, 06:05 PM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 02audionoob
    Do you really believe that?

    Well no matter what, she has already won on the international stage. He could still order this thereby saving his face in the community. No matter what he orders, internationally it will be condemned.
  • 09-07-2009, 06:39 PM
    Mr Peabody
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 02audionoob
    Do you really believe that?

    I was just being facecious. But, not that I believe she should have been for what she did but if they really wanted to enforce this law then they have to impose the penalty.

    People want to think flogging is so unhumane then the same people won't hesitate to get into a fist fight over the stupidest of things. I have to wonder if the U.S. did this if our jails would be less populated. There's a town here in our state where some guys were arrested for walking up and just hitting a person. It seems this was a game to see if they could knock the person out in one punch. I just wonder if they will receive any real punishment, something other than parole. Would flogging stop stupidness like that or other petty crimes that wind people up in jail. It's like the school yard, love goes so far, you get your ass kicked enough, and then one day you have had enough and decide to fight back to prevent yourself from becoming the school door mat. When there's no consequence for one's actions then you get stupid stuff like what I mentioned. Sorry, for that rant but it some how connected at the time.

    I'm not sure how letting women wear jeans would bring about peace but if that's what it takes...... Without knowing much about their government maybe this is what it takes to get a law changed. There are numerous examples of people here in the States who had to be arrested and take their case to the Supreme Court in order to win and change a law.
  • 09-07-2009, 06:54 PM
    02audionoob
    Punishment is a complicated issue in any humane culture.
  • 09-08-2009, 03:38 AM
    markw
    The punishment should fit the crime.
    I don't think flogging a woman for wearing pants is warranted, but I would strongly consider it for those yahoos who simply wanted to punch people for no reason.

    But, that's cultural relativism for ya. Remember, this is the same culture that blames the woman when she's raped.
  • 09-08-2009, 05:27 AM
    bobsticks
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 02audionoob
    Punishment is a complicated issue in any humane culture.

    Predicated on "humane culture"...but you knew that...


    ...:skep:
  • 09-08-2009, 05:39 AM
    Mr Peabody
    It looks like we are all on the same page so far.

    I don't know if it was the same judge but i saw some women were flogged some days earlier for breaking the same law. They are physically scarred for life. The sentence on the books is 40 lashes, the thought of that makes me crenge.
  • 09-08-2009, 03:43 PM
    ForeverAutumn
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bobsticks
    As a U.N. staffer, Hussein should have immunity from prosecution but she has opted to resign so that she could stand trial and draw attention to the case.

    This woman is a hero. I know that I could not be so brave.

    For anyone who doubts the severity of Taliban Islam against womens rights (and human rights) and freedoms, I recommend reading Ayaan Hirsi Ali's memoirs, Infidel. It is a real eye opener.
  • 09-08-2009, 04:03 PM
    ForeverAutumn
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    The judge should have just ordered the flogging and put it to rest. She has essentially already won.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Sir TtT
    Well no matter what, she has already won on the international stage.

    No. She hasn’t won. The law has not been changed and the next woman to get arrested for something as silly and simple as wearing pants may still be flogged. The fact that a woman can get arrested for this at all is obscene. Yes she’s brought this to the attention of the world, but the only reason that the judge is not imposing the flogging (yet) is so that he doesn’t look bad to international eyes. It is not out of any sense of wrong or human decency.

    She wins when the law is abolished.

    If the world was not paying attention, I’m sure that she would be flogged with her sisters.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Think of the endorsement money from jeans companies after this.

    That isn’t funny.
  • 09-08-2009, 07:27 PM
    bobsticks
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    This woman is a hero. I know that I could not be so brave.

    For anyone who doubts the severity of Taliban Islam against womens rights (and human rights) and freedoms, I recommend reading Ayaan Hirsi Ali's memoirs, Infidel. It is a real eye opener.

    Das freulein ist korrect....

    KORAN commands to kill infidels:

    Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

    On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

    Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

    Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

    Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
    (different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

    ..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

    If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

    You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

    Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

    Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

    But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

    Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

    O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

    Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

    O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

    It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

    Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

    When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

    Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

    Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

    Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

    O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

    Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

    Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
    Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

    As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

    Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

    Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

    When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
    (different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

    Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

    Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

    Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

    Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

    The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

    Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02


    Mebbe some Nazi apologists will come along to correct me...
  • 09-08-2009, 08:05 PM
    Mr Peabody
    Where were the versus taken from? They must be either out of context or taken from some non-mainstream version of the Quran. If not, how could any Muslim live amongst anyone else and consider themselves devout?
  • 09-09-2009, 05:13 AM
    Mr Peabody
    That isnít funny.[/QUOTE]

    Maybe not, but I would bet she receives some offers. Sad, but true.
  • 09-09-2009, 05:14 AM
    Worf101
    And your point is?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Das freulein ist korrect....

    KORAN commands to kill infidels:

    Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

    On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

    Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

    Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

    Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
    (different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

    ..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

    If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

    You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

    Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

    Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

    But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

    Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

    O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

    Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

    O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

    It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

    Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

    When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

    Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

    Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

    Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

    O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

    Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

    Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
    Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

    As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

    Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

    Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

    When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
    (different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

    Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

    Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

    Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

    Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

    The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

    Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02


    Mebbe some Nazi apologists will come along to correct me...

    Sorry man, you can find just as many bloody exhortations to kill the Philistine in the old testament of the bible. Look ALL "organized" religions have their faults. Considering the dirt the Catholic Church has done down through the Centuries against Protestants and Muslims I personally wouldn't be one pointing fingers. Still, you can't fault the religion but what people DO WITH THAT RELIGION. Hell according to the Book of Mormon I'm a lesser human being stained with sin, so trust me there's plenty of dirt to go around.

    Da Worfster
  • 09-09-2009, 05:47 AM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Worf101
    Sorry man, you can find just as many bloody exhortations to kill the Philistine in the old testament of the bible. Look ALL "organized" religions have their faults. Considering the dirt the Catholic Church has done down through the Centuries against Protestants and Muslims I personally wouldn't be one pointing fingers. Still, you can't fault the religion but what people DO WITH THAT RELIGION. Hell according to the Book of Mormon I'm a lesser human being stained with sin, so trust me there's plenty of dirt to go around.

    Da Worfster

    On the contrary, you can fault religion: see Christopher Hitchens, God is Not Great. But I agree that it is generally sanctimonious to criticize one religion versus another.

    I don't recall the details, but I think it was Hitchens who recounts the story of T.H. Huxley's son (nephew?) who, having been brought up without religion, was exorted to read the Bible by a fellow solidier (WWI?). Huxley read the Old Testiment for a week or two, and exclaimed, "Isn't God a sh!t!", referring e.g. to Yahweh's instruction to the Tribes of Israel to slaughter the ememies, man, women, child, and domestic beast.

    The God of the Old Testment is indeed a jealous and vengeful god and that's where Mohammed got his initial ideas, I suppose. The "God of Love" of the New Testement is argueably an improvement, (though I personally am not making the arguement).
  • 09-09-2009, 07:46 AM
    3LB
    That sort of stuff does scare me, but Worf's right. I'm afraid all that which is written in the Koran isn't particualrly original, and neither is the old testament for that matter. Judism isn't the world's first organized religion. Some stories in the Bible are direct decendants of greek mythology. Same with the Koran.

    But I see Bobstyx's point - we see the old testament and appreciate it for its virtues and don't take it verbatim, at least not everyone. It's scary to think that anyone could read that text and not see it for it is, a reaction to western occupation, just as a lot of the new testament was a reaction to Roman occupation. We don't slaughter people outright in the name of religion, but every time the US has gone to war, we've evoked the righteousness of our God over others. So we're not as obvious. We'd never flog a woman for wearing pants. We don't publically flog anyone in western culture, at least not literally. We have more subtle, entertaining ways of stealing people's dignity called reality TV. But at least we limit our hysteria to people who ask for it...mostly.

    It isn't hard to see how an Islamic culture, who is familiar with the Bible, could come to the conclusion that the Bible might be the basis for US policy in the middle east. The US seems to have unflinching, dutiful support for Israel - hey, even if you don't believe it, you know the rest of the world thinks it.. That plays right into a lot of that extremist rhetoric.

    I myself, don't think all muslim people buy into that stuff, because they enjoy a fair amount of wealth and technology themselves - Bagdad was a very modern city at one time, hell, Muslims invented most of our modern engineering and mathematics. I think the extremists just get the most attention. Its like what if Quakers were gun toting zealots or something...luckily, we don't have any such contingencies in our society... But I guess sometimes it comes down to pickin a side...everyone's gotta picka side, whether we like it or not.

    Like Bob Dylan once said, "You're gonna have to serve somebody".

    If it comes down to protecting a way of life or doing whats right, which do you choose if you don't know the difference? Which do you choose if you do?
  • 09-09-2009, 09:09 AM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 3LB
    ...

    But I see Bobstyx's point - we see the old testament and appreciate it for its virtues and don't take it verbatim, at least not everyone. It's scary to think that anyone could read that text and not see it for it is, a reaction to western occupation, just as a lot of the new testament was a reaction to Roman occupation. We don't slaughter people outright in the name of religion, but every time the US has gone to war, we've evoked the righteousness of our God over others. So we're not as obvious. We'd never flog a woman for wearing pants. We don't publically flog anyone in western culture, at least not literally. We have more subtle, entertaining ways of stealing people's dignity called reality TV. But at least we limit our hysteria to people who ask for it...mostly.

    It isn't hard to see how an Islamic culture, who is familiar with the Bible, could come to the conclusion that the Bible might be the basis for US policy in the middle east. The US seems to have unflinching, dutiful support for Israel - hey, even if you don't believe it, you know the rest of the world thinks it.. That plays right into a lot of that extremist rhetoric.

    I myself, don't think all muslim people buy into that stuff, because they enjoy a fair amount of wealth and technology themselves - Bagdad was a very modern city at one time, hell, Muslims invented most of our modern engineering and mathematics. I think the extremists just get the most attention. Its like what if Quakers were gun toting zealots or something...luckily, we don't any such contingencies in our society... But I guess sometimes it comes down to pickin a side...everyone's gotta picka side, whether we like it or not.

    ...

    It's ironic that for a thousand years, Islamic realms were, in practical terms, far more tolerant of their Jewish and Christian residents than contemporary Christian realms were their religious minorities.
  • 09-09-2009, 09:39 AM
    markw
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    It's ironic that for a thousand years, Islamic realms were, in practical terms, far more tolerant of their Jewish and Christian residents than contemporary Christian realms were their religious minorities.

    Really? Did you ever wonder what was the main reason for the crusades?
  • 09-09-2009, 10:17 AM
    3LB
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    It's ironic that for a thousand years, Islamic realms were, in practical terms, far more tolerant of their Jewish and Christian residents than contemporary Christian realms were their religious minorities.

    when?
  • 09-09-2009, 11:06 AM
    Worf101
    This is true...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    It's ironic that for a thousand years, Islamic realms were, in practical terms, far more tolerant of their Jewish and Christian residents than contemporary Christian realms were their religious minorities.

    In certain areas of Europe conqured by the Muslims, particualrly southern Spain, Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together in relative peace and harmony. This was shattered completely when Isabella and her hubby took over all of Spain, particularly the Moorish parts. Next up, the Spanish Inquisition. It is quite true. For a modern parralell, There are Jews in Iran still. They have the tacit blessing of the current Ayatollah who follows the precedent of the first one who intimated that the Jews who have lived peacefully in Iran are NOT the same Jews cross the way in Palestine. As far as I've heard, there've been no mass slaughters etc.. That might change in Isreal hits their nukes.

    Da Worfster
  • 09-09-2009, 12:07 PM
    Feanor
    Quote:
    Yes, really. I'm not talking about aggression between Islamic empires and Chritian empires, but about treatment of citizens within the respective empires.
  • 09-09-2009, 02:33 PM
    FA, I never thought I would say this, but I completely agree with your post. I've also read Ayaan's books and seen her movie. I don't exactly think she had a good grasp of the politics in Somalia (or later The Netherlands), but it's certainly a vivid personal account worth reading. Let's hope she doesn't succumb to the same fate as Van Gogh....

    That said, Islam is about complete submission. What Lubna Hussein is questioning isn't just the right to wear pants, but the right to question Islam, which in the eyes of many Muslims is far more blasphemous than the original crime. It is this very act that is so offensive about women in Iran refusing to wear the Hijab - it shows a defiance on many levels, one that if allowed, would lead to a domino effect. It could very well turn out that a higher court, one made up of different judges, will find her guilty of not complying with the lower court's findings, and punish her with a much more severe sentence.

    On the issue of corporal punishment I do not agree at all that this would solve stupidity. As someone who spent years in schools where this was common practice, I can tell you without a doubt that it did nothing to curb undesired behavior and was seen by most of us as a rite of passage. I still keep in touch with a couple of my classmates and one was arrested for beating his own daughter and the other also regularly punishes his children with the dreaded "belt." Violence begets violence, so to speak, and it only furthers the escalation of violence in the lives of these people.

    And this is true in the most repressive and violent countries too. Egypt comes to mind, where despite the most repulsive treatment in prisons (flogging, rape, fingernails, boiling, well you can use your imagination from there), their is no shortage of anti-government militants. Saddam couldn't contain his own republic of fear despite using the most unspeakable repression. We won't even go into the colorful history of Iran under the terror of the Savak, Pakistan's ISID, or the reasons we render the most stubborn "enemy combatants" to Morroco. These countries had/have atrocious human rights records and yet are still amazingly unstable to boot.

    If we allow our (surprisingly religiously conservative) criminal justice system to become even more repressive and abusive against its inmates than it already is, then we only create a more violent criminal once he/she is released. Is it any wonder we have one of the highest rates in the Western world of criminals who return to prison? Would any of us allow an ex-con to move next door to our own homes? It matters little what crime they have committed - once they wear that scarlet letter, they can never be trusted again. And why is this? Because the violence inside has made them a person never to be trusted again. Our prison system is in some ways just as violent as the prisons in other countries, but we just pretend it isn't.

    As Robin Williams put it so elegantly: once we convict a man for sodomy, we send him to a place where he'll be sodomized regularly. Where is the logic in that?

    P.S. And yes, the violence and cruelty of the Crusades was incomparably one-sided.
  • 09-09-2009, 02:40 PM
    markw
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    Yes, really. I'm not talking about aggression between Islamic empires and Chritian empires, but about treatment of citizens within the respective empires.

    So, you're saying that once they've subjugated the indigenous peoples and brutally killed off all that disagree with them, they were "nice" to those that survived?

    There's a problem with that logic. See if you can figure it out.