Islam: Our Partners in Peace...

[Ajani]

The bible was written by men. Period.

Written by men and edited by other men... All with their own agendas and beliefs...

Why is the majority of Jesus' life not written about in the bible? There is a huge gap from about age 12 until the very last few years of his life (around 30)... So are we to believe that he spent all those years just making cabinetry? Other religions have stories about what Jesus did in those missing years... even the Gnostic Gospels have some details about those times...

While I believe in the general teachings of Christ; the simple principle of love your neighbor as yourself... There are too many holes in the bible for me to take it literally... Worse the old testament which is just a rip of the Jewish Torah... Yet ironically, the Jews don't take those books literally, yet so many Christians do...

[Hyfi]

Written by men and edited by other men... All with their own agendas and beliefs...

Why is the majority of Jesus' life not written about in the bible? There is a huge gap from about age 12 until the very last few years of his life (around 30)... So are we to believe that he spent all those years just making cabinetry? Other religions have stories about what Jesus did in those missing years... even the Gnostic Gospels have some details about those times...

While I believe in the general teachings of Christ; the simple principle of love your neighbor as yourself... There are too many holes in the bible for me to take it literally... Worse the old testament which is just a rip of the Jewish Torah... Yet ironically, the Jews don't take those books literally, yet so many Christians do...

I know I said I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore but wanted to address this. I have a very good book that traces the real historical proof and events that are known about Jesus life from childhood to marriage and beyond. It also pokes plenty of holes in the myths.

I originally bought this book years ago for my Father in Law who is a hard core Born Again thinking he would enjoy reading a little history about the man he has put so much faith in. He read a few pages and threw the book on the floor saying he did not want it. I guess it made him question himself.

The book is called Jesus a Life by A.N. Wilson. I cannot quote much from this book as it has been several years since I read it last but you can flip through the pages over at Amazon if anyone is interested.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/039...JGWGYZ69KDADGV




OK, back to the sidelines for me.

[bobsticks]

Written by men and edited by other men... All with their own agendas and beliefs...

Really?!

Interesting. I did not know that. That, I did not know.

Why is the majority of Jesus' life not written about in the bible? There is a huge gap from about age 12 until the very last few years of his life (around 30)... So are we to believe that he spent all those years just making cabinetry? Other religions have stories about what Jesus did in those missing years... even the Gnostic Gospels have some details about those times...

Maybe the editors and the project developers felt that 30 years of cabinetry making would create a drag in the middle when the feature length film was later made.

While I believe in the general teachings of Christ; the simple principle of love your neighbor as yourself... There are too many holes in the bible for me to take it literally... Worse the old testament which is just a rip of the Jewish Torah... Yet ironically, the Jews don't take those books literally, yet so many Christians do...

Says you.

Frankly I like a good stoning in the spring...

Hey, no one here is on their second marriage, eh? Or maybe has a spouse that did a lil' somethin'-somethin' before betrothal?

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die-Deuteronomy 22:13-21

Good thing we've got some Parent-Of-The-Year award winners...

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.-- Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Uh oh...remember the Bush and Obama threads? Yeah...that's a problem...

Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die.--1 Kings 21:10

UUggg...Adultery bad...rape victims too...

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city.--Deuteronomy 22:23-24

My Grandmother told me that there was a passage in the bible that says, "It is better to spill your seed in the belly of a whore, than to spill it on the ground." So, I tried both and the bible's right! It's way better. That's one of the reasons they call it the good book. I'd imagine a lot of you are worried about that one.

And, hey, speaking of that...

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched. --Mark 9:43

Any adopted kids? From another marriage? Unholy unions?...better leave the kids at home

One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the congregation of the Lord--Deuteronomy 23:2

And, do God a favor...shut that ***** up...

Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says--1 Corinthians 14:34

I've noticed as women get older, especially after marriage, they tend to opt for convenience of style in the grooming department but if your female septagenarian doesn't look like Saruman you'd better bind her feet.

Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her as a covering--1 Corinthians 11:13-15

It's a good thing everyone around here has their houses in order or we'd need some relief pitchers.


By the way, most of these particular inserts were culled from a Google search of "Arbitrary Scripture". The rest were from a search for "Fat Hypocrite"

[Ajani]

Really?!

Interesting. I did not know that. That, I did not know.



Maybe the editors and the project developers felt that 30 years of cabinetry making would create a drag in the middle when the feature length film was later made.



Says you.

Frankly I like a good stoning in the spring...

Hey, no one here is on their second marriage, eh? Or maybe has a spouse that did a lil' somethin'-somethin' before betrothal?

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die-Deuteronomy 22:13-21

Good thing we've got some Parent-Of-The-Year award winners...

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.-- Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Uh oh...remember the Bush and Obama threads? Yeah...that's a problem...

Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die.--1 Kings 21:10

UUggg...Adultery bad...rape victims too...

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city.--Deuteronomy 22:23-24

My Grandmother told me that there was a passage in the bible that says, "It is better to spill your seed in the belly of a whore, than to spill it on the ground." So, I tried both and the bible's right! It's way better. That's one of the reasons they call it the good book. I'd imagine a lot of you are worried about that one.

And, hey, speaking of that...

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched. --Mark 9:43

Any adopted kids? From another marriage? Unholy unions?...better leave the kids at home

One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the congregation of the Lord--Deuteronomy 23:2

And, do God a favor...shut that ***** up...

Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says--1 Corinthians 14:34

I've noticed as women get older, especially after marriage, they tend to opt for convenience of style in the grooming department but if your female septagenarian doesn't look like Saruman you'd better bind her feet.

Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her as a covering--1 Corinthians 11:13-15

It's a good thing everyone around here has their houses in order or we'd need some relief pitchers.


By the way, most of these particular inserts were culled from a Google search of "Arbitrary Scripture". The rest were from a search for "Fat Hypocrite"

Ah 'Sticks to quote one of my favourite films "you use your tongue prettier than a twenty dollar whore"...

However your mix of sarcasm and wit is so extreme that I'm often perplexed as to what your actual point is...

I assume when you said "Really?!

Interesting. I did not know that. That, I did not know."

was just sarcasm, since most of us read "The King James Version" of the Bible - which straight up tells anyone that it is a version and hence has been edited by someone (whether King James himself or more likely the particular scholars at the time)...

As for my last part about Jews not taking it all literally: I have a Bible, Quran and Torah that I used to read for comparison of the texts... The Torah began with a narrative from a Rabbi explaining that it is not a book of history, measurement or geography and essentially that the books are not meant to be interpreted literally... I assure you that no similar narrative was in either the Bible or the Quran.

[bobsticks]

Ah 'Sticks to quote one of my favourite films "you use your tongue prettier than a twenty dollar whore"...

However your mix of sarcasm and wit is so extreme that I'm often perplexed as to what your actual point is....

My point, my good man, is that the most pious among us are behaving with very little decorum which in turn is causing this small portion of the thread to become a microcosm of the larger theme. Damn allegorical if you ask me.

Whatever one professes to believe is their right of self determination. That some would use sacred or holy texts as supportive evidence is to be expected. My issue arises when individuals parse or edit texts to fit an agenda. My issue further arises when individuals use said excerpts to judge, belittle, demean, or otherwise impart a less than/greater than value appraisal on others when they themselves declare purposeful ignorance to areas of their own reference material that would refute their own behavior.

We all fall short.

Let those that condemn others to damnation for lack of adherence to a text conform to the demands of the whole text. I want to hear these people in advocacy for slavery, I want to read demands for public stonings, and I want a call for the return to vengeful barbarism because if someone can see these things in written form and not recognize the hypocrisy then they're no better than the fundamentalist across the way.

And that makes them an asshole.

[Ajani]

My point, my good man, is that the most pious among us are behaving with very little decorum which in turn is causing this small portion of the thread to become a microcosm of the larger theme. Damn allegorical if you ask me.

Whatever one professes to believe is their right of self determination. That some would use sacred or holy texts as supportive evidence is to be expected. My issue arises when individuals parse or edit texts to fit an agenda. My issue further arises when individuals use said excerpts to judge, belittle, demean, or otherwise impart a less than/greater than value appraisal on others when they themselves declare purposeful ignorance to areas of their own reference material that would refute their own behavior.

We all fall short.

Let those that condemn others to damnation for lack of adherence to a text conform to the demands of the whole text. I want to hear these people in advocacy for slavery, I want to read demands for public stonings, and I want a call for the return to vengeful barbarism because if someone can see these things in written form and not recognize the hypocrisy then they're no better than the fundamentalist across the way.

And that makes them an asshole.

Well said...

[Feanor]

...

Whatever one professes to believe is their right of self determination. That some would use sacred or holy texts as supportive evidence is to be expected. My issue arises when individuals parse or edit texts to fit an agenda. My issue further arises when individuals use said excerpts to judge, belittle, demean, or otherwise impart a less than/greater than value appraisal on others when they themselves declare purposeful ignorance to areas of their own reference material that would refute their own behavior.

We all fall short.

Let those that condemn others to damnation for lack of adherence to a text conform to the demands of the whole text. I want to hear these people in advocacy for slavery, I want to read demands for public stonings, and I want a call for the return to vengeful barbarism because if someone can see these things in written form and not recognize the hypocrisy then they're no better than the fundamentalist across the way.

And that makes them an asshole.

Indeed, and this was the point I tried to made with Terrence.

[bobsticks]

Indeed, and this was the point I tried to made with Terrence.

I'm not sure why you would aim your poison pen at Terrence (I haven't read the last couple of pages as yet). I know you disagree on fundamentals but he seems less likely to use his belief system as a blanket condemnation for others.

He seems to have some issue with specific individuals but that's a work in progress.

[Hyfi]

I'm not sure why you would aim your poison pen at Terrence (I haven't read the last couple of pages as yet). I know you disagree on fundamentals but he seems less likely to use his belief system as a blanket condemnation for others.

He seems to have some issue with specific individuals but that's a work in progress.

Bottom line is, if you're gonna Talk the Talk, you have to Walk the Walk. You can't preach it one way and live it another. That goes for everyone if you believe in it. You can't turn the other cheek for some and not others.

[Feanor]

I'm not sure why you would aim your poison pen at Terrence (I haven't read the last couple of pages as yet). I know you disagree on fundamentals but he seems less likely to use his belief system as a blanket condemnation for others.

He seems to have some issue with specific individuals but that's a work in progress.

Read up, 'Sticks. Sir T. was uttering a typical "liberal" Christian clap-trap rational that injunctions, such as stoning adulterers, are wrong today but were somehow OK back in Leviticus times. So maybe stonings are OK today in Afganistan or Pakistan due to cultural differences? Where does does this relativistic thinking end?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I'm not sure why you would aim your poison pen at Terrence (I haven't read the last couple of pages as yet). I know you disagree on fundamentals but he seems less likely to use his belief system as a blanket condemnation for others.

He seems to have some issue with specific individuals but that's a work in progress.

It's not my job to judge or condemn anyone. That is not the job of any Christian walking on this earth.

I really don't have any issues with anyone on this board, but some sure have issues with me. And yes, I am a work in progress, just like every Christian alive should be.

[Feanor]

Written by men and edited by other men... All with their own agendas and beliefs...

Why is the majority of Jesus' life not written about in the bible? There is a huge gap from about age 12 until the very last few years of his life (around 30)... So are we to believe that he spent all those years just making cabinetry? Other religions have stories about what Jesus did in those missing years... even the Gnostic Gospels have some details about those times...

While I believe in the general teachings of Christ; the simple principle of love your neighbor as yourself... There are too many holes in the bible for me to take it literally... Worse the old testament which is just a rip of the Jewish Torah... Yet ironically, the Jews don't take those books literally, yet so many Christians do...

Muslims, of course, have the tremendous advantage that the Qur'an had only one author -- God. So there is no question of literal truth, (though perhaps minor issues of interpretation).

The Qur'an is also not burdened with issues of compliation, versions, or translations. (There is only one version of the Qur'an: the original Arabic. There are certainly translations but they are considered paraphrases and not necessarily accurate.)

[Ajani]

Muslims, of course, have the tremendous advantage that the Qur'an had only one author -- God.

I would have thought the author was Muhammad.

So there is no question of literal truth, (though perhaps minor issues of interpretation).

The Qur'an is also not burdened with issues of compliation, versions, or translations. (There is only one version of the Qur'an: the original Arabic. There are certainly translations but they are considered paraphrases and not necessarily accurate.)

Even with only 1 author and version it still suffers from matters of interpretation, as persons don't take into account the historical context of the teachings... The teachings of Muhammad are quite different during his early peaceful years versus when he became a 'general' in a war... So many of the violent quotes from the Quran were clearly in reference to action during times of war... Yet extremists use them to justify attrocities at any time...

[Feanor]

I would have thought the author was Muhammad.
...

No, not Muhammad. What happened was that the angel, Gabriel, quoted God (a.k.a. Allah) to Muhammad as God's chosen messenger. (Muhammad was illiterate so he quoted Gabriel to scribes who wrote it down.)

...
Even with only 1 author and version it still suffers from matters of interpretation, as persons don't take into account the historical context of the teachings... The teachings of Muhammad are quite different during his early peaceful years versus when he became a 'general' in a war... So many of the violent quotes from the Quran were clearly in reference to action during times of war... Yet extremists use them to justify attrocities at any time...

Ah well now, this is where we get into the déjà vu all over again.

In addition to the Qur'an, Muslims believe also rely on the many injunctions, aphorisms, and practices ascribed to Muhammad collectively called the Sunnah, (whence Sunni Muslim). There are thousands of these and not all are considered reliable, but of course people tend to quote the ones they like. Shi'a Muslims use a different set than than the Sunnis.

Ah! religion.

[Ajani]

No, not Muhammad. What happened was that the angel, Gabriel, quoted God (a.k.a. Allah) to Muhammad as God's chosen messenger. (Muhammad was illiterate so he quoted Gabriel to scribes who wrote it down.)

Oh yes, I totally forgot about that... it just gets better and better... So God told Gabriel, who told Muhammad, who told scribes...

Nothing quite like a game of 'Chinese telephone' to ensure that a message is passed on accurately...

[GMichael]

Oh yes, I totally forgot about that... it just gets better and better... So God told Gabriel, who told Muhammad, who told scribes...

Nothing quite like a game of 'Chinese telephone' to ensure that a message is passed on accurately...

And all told around a time when sea-serpents, mermaids, and sailing off the end of the world were commonplace.