Speaker Characteristics and Why?

[E-Stat]

No, my knowledge is not that limited, he has talked about it quite extensively. However, I cannot see the point in listing all of the things in my notes just to impress you. It is not necessary, and it does not change his or my opinion.

Your lack of ANY detail whatsoever isn't very convincing.

I am not talking about a comparison of the master to the final result, I am talking about just listening to the master through a tube based signal path(i.e. tube pre-amp and amplifier)

We're back to your inability to tell us exactly which tube components limit your perspective.

The problem with your last statement is that the world does not revolve itself around your biases.

Such is only helpful to place observations into context. The music market world most certainly revolves around mediocrity!

rw

[Geoffcin]

Hey guys, let's keep this thread on speakers.

[E-Stat]

Hey guys, let's keep this thread on speakers.

It is an inescapable fact that speaker choice affects the resulting optimum type of amplifier. Understanding that fact has guided the selection in my three systems, Unfortunately, there are some folks who don't understand that concept - which I find to be a very critical factor for anyone's selection process (and non-compatibility).

rw

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Your lack of ANY detail whatsoever isn't very convincing.

My lack of detail is my choice. I have played round robin with you to many times. You seem to continuously miss what I am saying. I am not here it impress or convince you, you are too dismissive to even attempt to do so.

We're back to your inability to tell us exactly which tube components limit your perspective.

It is not an inability, it is a choice. Why waste my time so you can just dismiss whatever is listed. You seem to have an excuse(or BS) for everything.

Such is only helpful to place observations into context. The music market world most certainly revolves around mediocrity!

rw

That is your opinion, and you are welcome to it. I don't see the mediocrity, and I work in the industry. Just because something does not fit your taste does not make it mediocre. That is just arrogance.

My question still goes unanswered, which I am afraid it will. If the answer was given, it would make my point. Instead you are dancing around the question with irrelevant answers, which makes me understand my participation in the conversation is done.

[E-Stat]

My lack of detail is my choice. I have played round robin with you to many times. You seem to continuously miss what I am saying.

Your lack of detail defines your level of experience. Perhaps I miss your intent as I can only interpret what you write. Which is precious little beyond speculation or that which illustrates you have no clue.

It is not an inability, it is a choice.

That's what all criminals say when they take the Fifth.

That is your opinion, and you are welcome to it.

As is yours and Bernie's. Such does not define a truth.

I don't see the mediocrity, and I work in the industry

Ever heard of I-Tunes, Napster or Amazon.com? Low resolution online downloads represent two thirds of the market. 112M CDs (not BR) vs. 288M downloads

My question still goes unanswered,...

I am not aware of any question of yours where I share your insecurity to answer. What again was that?

rw

[Geoffcin]

It is an inescapable fact that speaker choice affects the resulting optimum type of amplifier. Understanding that fact has guided the selection in my three systems, Unfortunately, there are some folks who don't understand that concept - which I find to be a very critical factor for anyone's selection process (and non-compatibility).

rw

While I agree with the first statement, there comes a point where it becomes obvious that your not going to make any more converts. We don't really need another thread of endless bickering.

[Mr Peabody]

I didn't realize the 3.6 had a dynamic driver. I see they now have a 12" and the review I found said it helped in the low end region quite a bit.

[E-Stat]

The only problem is that JA is guessing - they have never sounded good in room to me...They measured the speakers and they're some of the worst in existence.

I'm glad that we agree that the admittedly faulty measurements are useless.

My issue is with spending a great deal of time to measure a speaker when you KNOW at the outset that whatever the result will reflect very little back to how they sound in room. JA says this for heaven sake.

Once again we agree. He says that measuring ALL large planars is flawed using his methodology and gear.

And the speakers need to be set-up according to manufacturer recommendation. That magazine doesn't do that with any sort of consistency at all.

That is certainly possible!

My dealer has the 1.6 maggies and several other people just browsing all commented "bright and thin". They got up and left.

That is not at all the experience I had just last week when I heard them in Salt Lake City.

Everyone I know who has them or used to own them complain all the time about getting them to work in room.

Please illustrate with facts. That does not appear to be the case with the majority of users over at MUG.

And of all the demo rooms at Soundhounds the room with the 1.7 had a cd player that you could not open and put a new one in. As Terry noted - with Magnepan they like to control the music that gets played (read between the lines - if you play anything hard they'll never sell).

I heard them with a McIntosh player. Is that what you were forced to listen to?

You have not illustrated that you understand measurements - all you have done is post what someone else, Linkwitz, says and that he basically said what JA said - the measurements are not representative of the loudspeaker - but he has provided no actual measurements himself.

A smart engineer acknowledges when a test procedure lacks relevance to the real world.

He has not said that the speaker in room will be dead flat from 20hz - 20khz with zero distortion perfect phase and polar response - all he has talked about is the various problems associated with JA's measuring of the speaker. Umm got it. JA said the same thing.

What JA said was that he was NOT able to provide in room measurements and from the outset, the underlying assumption of his speaker test does NOT apply to large planars. He acknowledges the limitations of his own testing. I applaud his honesty.

I suppose I demand some actual evidence that these speakers are the bee's knees of accuracy.

As with all speakers, they are imperfect but not to the degree the predisposed erroneous test seems to suggest. You'll have to expand beyond the Julian Hirsch thing.

rw

[E-Stat]

I see they now have a 12" and the review I found said it helped in the low end region quite a bit.

You are confusing the 3.6 with something else. There are no 12" cones in any Maggie. Such would be obvious if you were to see how thin they are. Dynamic, yes. Hence the name since they use magnets to drive the mylar diaphragms.

rw

[Geoffcin]

They have never sounded good in room to me. Never - not once. Any room. My dealer sells the bloody things and is in agreement on this.

My dealer has the 1.6 maggies and several other people just browsing all commented "bright and thin". They got up and left. The ribbon brightness I just kind of accept from ribbons (since I heard the same sound from the Apogee Duetta II and later the Scintilla) - the false sense of air they put out I think I can tame - the bass is ok and the midrange a little thick. This was positioned in a room that wasn't near any wall of any kind. I actually like the 1.6 overall because for the money against most competing speakers using metal tweeters the "treble" issue is not a big deal since the others have that but don't sound as open.

And of all the demo rooms at Soundhounds the room with the 1.7 had a cd player that you could not open and put a new one in. As Terry noted - with Magnepan they like to control the music that gets played (read between the lines - if you play anything hard they'll never sell).

.

Thanks RGA!

I've just sent a copy of this post of yours to Magnepan for review. They always like to hear how their dealers are presenting their speakers, so perhaps with any luck your little dealer will not be burdened with having to sell them anymore.

I'm sure they will be very appreciative when they find out how much you've helped them with their little problem.

[Mr Peabody]

Well, I didn't think the 3.6 had a woofer so I didn't understand Lingquist's continual reference to one. Then to make matters worse, I did misread the review, the writer was merely comparing the surface area to show the large difference between the panel and a 12. What's that they say, haste makes waste Thanks for sending me back.

[Pat D]

PATD

You have not illustrated that you understand measurements - all you have done is post what someone else, Linkwitz, says and that he basically said what JA said - the measurements are not representative of the loudspeaker - but he has provided no actual measurements himself. He has not said that the speaker in room will be dead flat from 20hz - 20khz with zero distortion perfect phase and polar response - all he has talked about is the various problems associated with JA's measuring of the speaker. Umm got it. JA said the same thing.

I suppose I demand some actual evidence that these speakers are the bee's knees of accuracy.

The curve you have shown, Fig. 3 in JA's review is NOT a measurement but a composite. If you want FR measurements, though done differently for the bass and midrange than for the tweeter, look at Fig. 2. JA's description of the curve in Fig. 3 should be quite clear, but you missed it.

"Fig.3 Magnepan MG3.6/R, anechoic response on-axis at 50", averaged across 30 degrees horizontal window and corrected for microphone response, with the complex sum of the nearfield woofer and midrange responses plotted below 300Hz."

Linkwitz pointed this out, too, and shows the limitations of JA's usual methods when dealing with dipoles. I'll quote Linkwitz again for you, and note that he says to JA "you form the complex sum of nearfield measurements and the . . . farfield measurement."

"Where things fall apart is in fig.3 when you form the complex sum of nearfield measurements and the 50" tweeter "farfield" measurement. This curve does not represent the frequency response a listener might experience at any distance and is therefore extremely misleading."

Now, JA is not the only reviewer who has used composites of measurements of different types, which are spliced together. Julian Hirsch used to do it, too. It can work pretty well with monkey coffins such as I have, but it doesn't work with dipoles without further modifications. Linkwitz, who has no objection to composite response curves, then tells how one might do a better one when dealing with a dipole:

"The Magneplanar is clearly not a point source and, being open-baffle, it has an acoustic short circuit between front and back. This causes a 6 dB/octave low-frequency roll-off in the farfield response. So from all open baffle nearfield measurements you have to subtract first a 6dB/octave (= 20dB/decade) slope before you can sum the data with other farfield measurements. When you apply this correction to the MG3.6 woofer response you see that it flattens from 400Hz to 60Hz and shows a peak at 47Hz. Similarly the midrange has to be corrected before you can use it for the composite response. The actual room response is still different from this composite, though, primarily due to the effect of the floor on woofer radiation."

http://stereophile.com/floorloudspea...03/index6.html

RGA added this comment:
"I suppose I demand some actual evidence that these speakers are the bee's knees of accuracy."

This is a straw man as far as I am concerned, also black and white thinking. Just because I point out that the performance of the Maggie 3.6 is not as bad as Fig. 3 looks does not by any means imply that I think the 3.6 is specially accurate. In the right set up, though, I think they should sound pretty good.

I should point out that JA has measured other dipoles, and has done room response measurements on some of them, so his guess that the 3.6 would perform better in a room is a very well-educated guess. Why don't you ask E-stat and Geoffcin what sort of room responses they get with their dipole speakers?

[Feanor]

The only problem is that JA is guessing - they [ Magneplanars ] have never sounded good in room to me. Never - not once. Any room. My dealer sells the bloody things and is in agreement on this. So JA making an assumption that they will sound good in room has zero basis in any fact. They measured the speakers and they're some of the worst in existence. Then they claim - they will sound better in a room. WTF?
...

This is nothing more of less than what you claim for Audio Notes -- don't be such a hypocrite.

...
My dealer has the 1.6 maggies and several other people just browsing all commented "bright and thin". They got up and left. The ribbon brightness I just kind of accept from ribbons (since I heard the same sound from the Apogee Duetta II and later the Scintilla) -
...

So since a lot of people like ribbons, I guess they like "bright and thin"; so that would be a matter of taste ... or maybe they prefer a more resolved, transparent, and authentic sound.

...
Still the biggest complaint with them is getting them to sound right in an actual room. Everyone I know who has them or used to own them complain all the time about getting them to work in room.
...

This is slanderous billsh!t. I for one have asserted many times that they are not hard to place if you observe a few, simple parameters -- incidentally, Audio Notes have exactly the same issue. Again, cut the hypocritical crap: you're fooling no one.

...
You can't move your heard. The speakers have such a huge noticable shift with head movements.
...

More defamatory billsh!t ... certainly not just by turning your head or inclining it a bit, which is what you implying. Moving your head (and presumably you body), couple of feet will make a difference with the quasi-ribbons, (though possibly not with the 1.7 supertweeters).
...

RGA, stop misinforming people, and stop hypocritically flogging your prefences as if they were devine revelation.

[E-Stat]

... or maybe they prefer a more resolved, transparent, and authentic sound.

The cleanest and most extended top end response I've heard outside of a live event was on Nola Grand References (having a line array of ribbon tweeters) driven by C-J and VTL electronics sourced by an EMM Labs player and Valhalla cabling. While there was incredible power and dynamic capability at the top, they were not at all *bright*. "Thin" is never a word one would attribute to that speaker.

rw

[RGA]

RGA added this comment:
"I suppose I demand some actual evidence that these speakers are the bee's knees of accuracy."

This is a straw man as far as I am concerned, also black and white thinking. Just because I point out that the performance of the Maggie 3.6 is not as bad as Fig. 3 looks does not by any means imply that I think the 3.6 is specially accurate. In the right set up, though, I think they should sound pretty good.

I should point out that JA has measured other dipoles, and has done room response measurements on some of them, so his guess that the 3.6 would perform better in a room is a very well-educated guess.

Actually Pat that is quite fair enough - I did not intend to create a straw man here implying that you were saying they were perfectly accurate. And I also see that because JA did test other dipoles in the past that he would resonably conclude they would do better in room. I was looking more at the sound of the Quad and the magnepan and JA was looking at the overriding technology being a dipole design and noting the issues he has measuring them. So I'll eat my dose of humble pie.

[Geoffcin]

You can send them this as well if you like. Doesn't bother me.
Soundhounds does sell the line, after all, for a reason. They do sell.

You mean they USED to sell them.....

My dealer, Lyric HiFi, sells more kit in a month than your little backwater dealer does in a decade. A good portion of which is Magnepans. Their setup there is absolulely stunning.

Oh, here's a link;

http://www.lyricusa.com/

Anytime you want to come and here some REAL HiFi gear (set up properly that is!) now you'll know where to find it.

[RGA]

You mean they USED to sell them.....

My dealer, Lyric HiFi, sells more kit in a month than your little backwater dealer does in a decade. A good portion of which is Magnepans. Their setup there is absolulely stunning.

Oh, here's a link;

http://www.lyricusa.com/

Anytime you want to come and here some REAL HiFi gear (set up properly that is!) now you'll know where to find it.

It appears we don't agree on much. First you have no idea how much gear Soundhounds sells. British Columbia is one of the most expensive places in the word to live. Victoria is in general considerably more expensive to live than most of the rest of British Columbia. Soundhounds is arguably "the" game in town. So they sell. They sold Magnepan many years back and they picked the line up again.

I am going to Sounhounds tomorrow so I will check to see if Magnepan can handle what I bring. Top Sim Audio should have enough power.

Soundhounds carries most of the top "mainstream" high end brands which is why they can afford to have opinions and why it is easy to sell - they never have to push a brand on anyone. But few ever actually ask for any advice.

B&W
Paradigm
Sonus Faber
Audio Note
Quad
Magnepan
Harbeth
Meridian
Dynaudio
Linn
REL

That is JUST the speaker line they carry in stock when I went last week. That doesn't include the brands they carry but carry to order . For instance they had Cerwin Vega CLS 215 which are ridiculous behemouths wating to be picked up.

The front end line

Audio Note
Classe
Wyatech Labs
Creek Audio
Rotel
McIntosh
Musical Fidelity
Sim Audio
Ayre Acoustics
Meridian/Soolos
Linn
Arcam
Denon
Marantz (the better Marantz)
Jolida
Antique Sound Labs
Bryston
Octave

And that's just the stuff I could see and remember.

They also have a new website which makes them look a little more posh than your link naner naner naner LOL

http://www.soundhounds.com/

Though it's not complete and they say this in their forum.

[RGA]

This is slanderous billsh!t. I for one have asserted many times that they are not hard to place if you observe a few, simple parameters -- incidentally, Audio Notes have exactly the same issue. Again, cut the hypocritical crap: you're fooling no one.

How is that slander. The people I know have said their biggest problem is positioning. Unless you know who I know then I am merely repeating the subjective response of other people. If they were easy to position then they should sound quite good under show conditions and yet fans will always come up with excuses for poor sound - and the first excuse is always "the rooms" and the second "you didn't use good front end gear" - usually before I have even mentioned what the gear is or what the rooms was like.

More defamatory billsh!t ... certainly not just by turning your head or inclining it a bit, which is what you implying. Moving your head (and presumably you body), couple of feet will make a difference with the quasi-ribbons,

...

My experience has been otherwise with them. Sitting on a couch in front of the right speaker illustrates that they have a small listening window - there isn't much off axis to my ear. Sitting between the speakers is a must and when I move slightly I hear a shift. That is not defamatory it is what I hear. I feel they have a head in the vice kind of requirement. Perhaps in a bigger room sitting further back it might be alleviated.

But since I am not allowed to have an opinion on magnepan because the moderator is a fan and will tattle then I will not discuss the speaker in the future. If you don't like the speaker and you say why you don't that is slander - gotcha - I do request that you put that in forum rules - speaker discussions okay but you must love the sound of all panels or else!

[Feanor]

How is that slander. The people I know have said their biggest problem is positioning. Unless you know who I know then I am merely repeating the subjective response of other people. If they were easy to position then they should sound quite good under show conditions and yet fans will always come up with excuses for poor sound - and the first excuse is always "the rooms" and the second "you didn't use good front end gear" - usually before I have even mentioned what the gear is or what the rooms was like.
...

My experience has been otherwise with them. Sitting on a couch in front of the right speaker illustrates that they have a small listening window - there isn't much off axis to my ear. Sitting between the speakers is a must and when I move slightly I hear a shift. That is not defamatory it is what I hear. I feel they have a head in the vice kind of requirement. Perhaps in a bigger room sitting further back it might be alleviated.

BS, PhD ... bullsh!t piled higher & deeper.

[RGA]

So Feaner - anyone who hears the maggy panel different than you is wrong is that it?

How is that BS. Most loudspeaker makers and most people who buy speakers are also wrong and full of BS when they opt for dynamic coned speakers. These are all preferences based on a subjective response and I post what I hear and why I would not make the choice - but that's BS - okay gotcha. New moderators in town just gotta learn the ropes

[Feanor]

So Feaner - anyone who hears the maggy panel different than you is wrong is that it?

How is that BS. Most loudspeaker makers and most people who buy speakers are also wrong and full of BS when they opt for dynamic coned speakers. These are all preferences based on a subjective response and I post what I hear and why I would not make the choice - but that's BS - okay gotcha. New moderators in town just gotta learn the ropes

Oh, please; you hypocracy is amazing.

Revised quote: "So RGA - anyone who hears the Audio Note box different than you is wrong, is that it?"

Here's the big difference: I have never said that cone speakers are crap, but you, on the other hand, have made that assertion about panels.

Yeah, most makers opted for dynamic speaker. But I wonder why, if Audio Note speakers are so great, so few makers, (actually none), choose to copy them? The objective fact of the matter -- and dispite the hype and mystique -- is that AN speakers are extremely simple designs that any maker could copy without a difficulty or patent infringement, if they chose to do so. But they don't

[RGA]

Oh, please; you hypocracy is amazing.

Revised quote: "So RGA - anyone who hears the Audio Note box different than you is wrong, is that it?"

Here's the big difference: I have never said that cone speakers are crap, but you, on the other hand, have made that assertion about panels.

Yeah, most makers opted for dynamic speaker. But I wonder why, if Audio Note speakers are so great, so few makers, (actually none), choose to copy them? The objective fact of the matter -- and dispite the hype and mystique -- is that AN speakers are extremely simple designs that any maker could copy without a difficulty or patent infringement, if they chose to do so. But they don't

I chose the King Sound panel as one of the best rooms I heard at CES and Martin Logan was very close. I also very much like the Quad 2905. Contrary to what view. I have illustrated that in fact I like panels - at least some panels - just as I like some boxed speakers.

As for Audio Note and who copies them - well Audio Note copied Snell - Snell copied L.L. Beranek. I am not sure I understand the logic of copying. Since you can buy a kit and build it yourself a second company would have to start building them and undercut Audio Note - since msot companies are interested in appearance it's not exactly something to copy. And then you also have to copy it and make it better. I do not see too many people copying magnepan either but that does not mean that magnepan is "bad" it means that a company is better off producing their own stuff and differentiating themselves from the rest of the field.

[Geoffcin]

It appears we don't agree on much. First you have no idea how much gear Soundhounds sells. British Columbia is one of the most expensive places in the word to live. Victoria is in general considerably more expensive to live than most of the rest of British Columbia. Soundhounds is arguably "the" game in town. So they sell. They sold Magnepan many years back and they picked the line up again.

Though it's not complete and they say this in their forum.

Your little island has a total economic product similar to some of the smaller towns in the outlying suburbs of NY. To compare it's wealth to Manhattan, or the NY region?! I think not.

[jpaik]

Eventually, multi-page "conversations" with RGA inevitably end with readers' eyes glazing over, and participants' heads exploding. Not pretty.

[Geoffcin]

But since I am not allowed to have an opinion on magnepan because the moderator is a fan and will tattle then I will not discuss the speaker in the future. If you don't like the speaker and you say why you don't that is slander - gotcha - I do request that you put that in forum rules - speaker discussions okay but you must love the sound of all panels or else!

Now this has risen to the level of slander (actually libel since it's in written form).

Since when has anyone supressed your opinions here? Your can be sure we've disagreed you on just about every point you've made but please show me where your opinions have been surpressed. Can't find one example eh? That's becasue NOWHERE has anyone moderated ANY of your posts for content, OR deleted any posts EVER?! The ONLY one who has deleted your posts has been YOU. Perhaps you think by deleting them that someone else will think that a mod did it? Was that the reason? Very poor behavior on your part, very bad indeed.