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  1. #1
    Suspended atomicAdam's Avatar
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    Speaker Characteristics and Why?

    A couple questions I'm curious of ya'lls perspective on....

    1) Soundstage - what exact technological qualities in a loudspeaker give a large, clear and defined soundstage? Assuming all other factors are equal..amp, source, room, etc.

    2) Detail in the tweeter - is this as much a quality of the amplifier being able to actually amplify and keep clear and send those detailed signals as it is for the tweeter to produce them.

    3) Silk tweeters vs. others, opinions?

    4) Cabinet vs. woofer size - any opinions on what is more important - or is there some good ratio that manufacturers go off of as a general rule of thumb and then tweak? Anything else about this?

    Go!

  2. #2
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicAdam
    A couple questions I'm curious of ya'lls perspective on....

    1) Soundstage - what exact technological qualities in a loudspeaker give a large, clear and defined soundstage? Assuming all other factors are equal..amp, source, room, etc.

    2) Detail in the tweeter - is this as much a quality of the amplifier being able to actually amplify and keep clear and send those detailed signals as it is for the tweeter to produce them.
    I would make the case the most of this occurs in the recording and not the speakers or front end gear. IMO soundstage is quite good across most stereo systems if properly set-up and the recordings are up to the job. And the reason I say this is that I have read several reviews on the bigger brother of my speakers who have claimed opposite results and even within the same review - which indicates that it is the ability to resolve the recording. Speakers that have inherently wide or deep soundstages IMO are speakers that are concerning because certainly all recordings DO NOT have wide and deep stages. Bose 901's have massive stages but a 6 foot piano should not seem 40 feet wide so while it may be "impressive" it isn't accurate. This takes me back to this article http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin.../audiohell.htm

    And the importance of staging to beging with as noted here by a fellow dagogo reviewer http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=398


    Quote Originally Posted by atomicAdam
    3) Silk tweeters vs. others, opinions?
    All drivers have certain pro's and cons and are chosen to get a desired result. Lynn Olsen wrote an article on which drivers he liked best and why he didn't like others. I think over the years I have come to some correlational preferences but for me the main issue with speakers that use unlike drivers is that they tend not to sound cohesive. But it really depends somehwat on the ability to detect it or place emphasis on it. It's not that a Silk dome is inherently better than a metal dome or that paper is better than Kevlar it has to do with implementation I suspect and also that some makers are very concerned with image and marketing. Sometimes you need exotic materials to advertise. I watched one car advert that went on at length about the stereo, blutooth and other features - didn't mention any driving related subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by atomicAdam
    4) Cabinet vs. woofer size - any opinions on what is more important - or is there some good ratio that manufacturers go off of as a general rule of thumb and then tweak? Anything else about this?

    Go!
    There are some who have strong feelings about single drivers, two ways, three ways and the driver size differentials. For example that a 6 inch woofer is better suited to a 1 inch tweeter than an 8 inch or 10 inch woofer with the reasoning that a 6 inch woofer can better navigate midrange frequencies better than an 8 or 10 - obviously I am in disagreement with that since I have heard no better two way than those using 8 inch and 1 inch - and frankly I haven't heard any that are even remotely close in the midrange - and you also give up a sizable amount of bass. Measurements versus comparison to live instruments and at the seated position are not the same.

    As for cabinets manufacturers treat them differently. Harbeth and Audio Note use the Cabinet to reinforce and control frequencies - they use the cabinet in the overall sound of the speakers. Most makers do not - they treat the speaker cabinet as a necessary evil and try and get rid of the cabinet with heavy damping materials so that you can't hear the cabinet. This actually works to certain degrees from a measurements standpoint but IMO they also tend to sound boxy and dead sounding. Which is why so many panel fans rail against boxed loudspeakers. These boxes lack an openness, speed (Transients) and sound like drivers in a box. Panels have no such pitfalls. High sensitive boxed speakers almost always sound fast and dynamic, fast and open, and they cost a lot more to do well but really there is not much substitute if you have the coin IMO. High efficiency tends to overcome some of what panel guys complain about. And of course they have far more bass and scale and take up less room.

  3. #3
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicAdam
    A couple questions I'm curious of ya'lls perspective on....

    1) Soundstage - what exact technological qualities in a loudspeaker give a large, clear and defined soundstage? Assuming all other factors are equal..amp, source, room, etc.

    2) Detail in the tweeter - is this as much a quality of the amplifier being able to actually amplify and keep clear and send those detailed signals as it is for the tweeter to produce them.

    3) Silk tweeters vs. others, opinions?

    4) Cabinet vs. woofer size - any opinions on what is more important - or is there some good ratio that manufacturers go off of as a general rule of thumb and then tweak? Anything else about this?

    Go!

    1. I have always thought from my listening experience that a pinpoint raiating speaker gives the best combination of soundstaging, imaging and depth. That is why I am more of a stand mount two way kind of guy. I do have to admit the extra bass with the RS6's is worth a little less in the imaging department.

    2. I am not always sure what people mean by detail in the tweeter. Since we both have the RS6's I will refer to them once again. I find the tweeters detailed but not overly extended or airy. String tones are very nice along with cymbals. If the speakers are not toed in for a good balance they can be bright.

    3. My OML 1's are silk and the RS6's are metal. Years ago when I had some Celestion speakers with titanium tweeters. I decided never to buy speakers with metal domes again. I think tweeters have improved much and there are good examples of all. I am excited about hearing some of the new speakers using the Heil Air Motion Transfer drivers. I used to think ribbon tweeters had such a different character from the woofers they were paired with that I need to give them a listen again.

    4. Again back to my love of stand mount speakers. The smaller the cabinet the more rigid it can be made with less expense. Of course there is more to it than rigidity. I remember the early Boston Acoustics speakers such as the A200 where the front baffle was wide which if I remember was to act like an infinite baffle. There was quite a distance from the tweeter to any edge so diffraction was unlikely and all the surface area minimized bass cancellation. The proximity of the woofer to the floor also helped with the bass.

    Here is an interesting speaker that was designed to give the drivers optimum mounting areas. We tend to like our speakers to be attractive which may not be the best way to support the drivers.
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  4. #4
    Forum Regular hifitommy's Avatar
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    various driver designs do quite well.

    dynamic designs with cones and domes can be excellent for example the rogers (et al) LS3/5As of yore. i had them (and now i have spendor s3/5s) every recording and sometimes on the same record (likely recorded in different rooms).

    planars such as maggies (i have MMGs) do a nice job as well with staging. i have also spent much time listening to martin logan reQuests. they all are a bit different but valid.

    pinpoint imaging has been criticized as non existent in actuality but i am not so sure that is true. with classical music, the mics are many times placed above the conductors head and hears pretty much what he hears. what better listening position can there be? the conductor certainly must get that kind of soundstaging and needs it to control the sound of the orchestra.

    failed designs like the bose 901 can never reproduce the image of an orchestra, only a pseudo floating image that can be detached from the speaker itself but never accurate.

    if you want to make the best image in your room (provided you are willing to work at placement of the speakers), get a pair of LS3/5As (there is a pair of them on audiogon right now for about $850) or some dahlquist dq10s to name just two exemplary examples. the LS3/5As are difficult to mate to a sub (which is why i have s3/5s instead) but are uncanny on voice and soundstaging.

    dq10s are much easier to add a sub to and shouldnt cost more than $500 or less used. of course, there are many others that image well so youre not really that limited.
    ...regards...tr

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicAdam
    A couple questions I'm curious of ya'lls perspective on....

    1) Soundstage - what exact technological qualities in a loudspeaker give a large, clear and defined soundstage? Assuming all other factors are equal..amp, source, room, etc.

    2) Detail in the tweeter - is this as much a quality of the amplifier being able to actually amplify and keep clear and send those detailed signals as it is for the tweeter to produce them.

    3) Silk tweeters vs. others, opinions?

    4) Cabinet vs. woofer size - any opinions on what is more important - or is there some good ratio that manufacturers go off of as a general rule of thumb and then tweak? Anything else about this?

    Go!
    1) The simple answer for what performance characteristics a good speaker should have are:

    1. Flat frequency response

    2. Wide and even off-axis dispersion

    3. Low distortion

    Dr. Floyd Toole worked for decades testing speakers and listener preferences at the National Research Council in Ottawa and after retiring there continued his work with Harman International. Here is a link to an excellent white paper on speakers:

    http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompa...ndRoomsPt2.pdf

    If you think this might be biased, they list a number of scientific publications which may be downloaded, including some by Dr. Toole, though this may be more than you want to know!

    http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompa...20Publications

    2) Any decent amplifier will have no difficulty amplifying signals in the audible range and well above unless it is driven outside its design limits. The sounds you hear are mostly the result of the program material, the speakers, and the room acoustics and speaker placement.

    3) The performance of the tweeter is what is most important. As a consumer, I am not terribly interested in what materials the speakers are made of but how they perform. There are good tweeters with hard domes, soft domes of various materials, and some are not domes but ribbons or other configurations.

    4) It is important to cross over the tweeter to the woofer (in a two system) low enough so that the woofer still has a wide radiation up to an beyond the crossover point. The rule of thumb is that a driver maintains a wide dispersion until the wave lengths of the sound become shorter than the diameter of the driver. Unfortunately, a small tweeter driver generally cannot handle too much power or too much excursion, so one does not want to put the crossover too low.

    A large woofer will start to beam well before most tweeters kick in. An 11 inch woofer would have reasonable dispersion up to 1000 Hz, which is way too low a crossover point for most small tweeters. In a two way system, the tweeter generally crosses over around 2000 Hz give or take, where there is less musical energy, in a two way system. So, most two way systems have smallish woofer-midrange of about 6-7 inches, so that there can be a smooth crossover between the woofer and tweeter, and the speaker can maintain a wide and even dispersion up until quite high, for even a 1 inch dome tweeter will become progressively more directional in the extreme highs above 12000 Hz.
    "Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
    ------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.

  6. #6
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hifitommy
    ...
    pinpoint imaging has been criticized as non existent in actuality but i am not so sure that is true. with classical music, the mics are many times placed above the conductors head and hears pretty much what he hears. what better listening position can there be? the conductor certainly must get that kind of soundstaging and needs it to control the sound of the orchestra.
    ....
    I certainly agree with HFT on this point: whether you get imaging at a live (acoustic) performance depends on the house and your seat in it.

    Furthermore even if you rarely heard "pinpoint imaging" in a live concert, this shouldn't condemn speakers that can deliver it since it clearly indicates that they have superior resolution.

  7. #7
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat D
    ...

    A large woofer will start to beam well before most tweeters kick in. An 11 inch woofer would have reasonable dispersion up to 1000 Hz, which is way too low a crossover point for most small tweeters. In a two way system, the tweeter generally crosses over around 2000 Hz give or take, where there is less musical energy, in a two way system. So, most two way systems have smallish woofer-midrange of about 6-7 inches, so that there can be a smooth crossover between the woofer and tweeter, and the speaker can maintain a wide and even dispersion up until quite high, for even a 1 inch dome tweeter will become progressively more directional in the extreme highs above 12000 Hz.
    Totally true. The basic consideration is that driver starts to beam when the effective diameter of its radiation surface is greater than 1/2 the wavelength being reproduced.

    Thus a typical, nominally 6.5" woofer, (actually the frame diameter), might have a radiating diameter of as much as 5". Given a typical sound velocity of 1130 feet/second, you can calculate that that speaker will start to beam above about 1350 Hz. What isn't impressive is that such speakers are often combined with tweeters crossed over at 2500 Hz.

    Parenthetically, our good buddy RGA has commented for years about "suck out" with B&W models that have high crossover points (like 3500 Hz) from 7" mid/bass drivers, but finds no problem with Audio Note speakers with 8" drivers. Maybe he will enlighten us about this phenomenon.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicAdam
    A couple questions I'm curious of ya'lls perspective on....

    1) Soundstage - what exact technological qualities in a loudspeaker give a large, clear and defined soundstage? Assuming all other factors are equal..amp, source, room, etc.

    > Good question and I can't speculate. I suspect it has much to do with the dispersion capabilities of the mid and tweeter.

    2) Detail in the tweeter - is this as much a quality of the amplifier being able to actually amplify and keep clear and send those detailed signals as it is for the tweeter to produce them.

    > Both, you need an amp with low distortion, high frequency extension, and a tweeter capable of handling the job of reproducing fine detail. I do NOT submit to all amps sound the same or any amp will do the job, simply not true. And, the source material has to have what you are listening for, as well a source unit capable of retrieving it.

    3) Silk tweeters vs. others, opinions?

    > I personally am not loyal or against any particular tweeter material. I've heard good and bad. For instance, there are titanium haters but I love a good titanium tweeter, probably some of the best cymbal and brass reproduction I've heard. Some people like ribbons, not my favorite. Sometimes it's more what is done with the material opposed to the material character itself. A lot of it is just personal preference. A certain material is no guarantee of anything.

    4) Cabinet vs. woofer size - any opinions on what is more important - or is there some good ratio that manufacturers go off of as a general rule of thumb and then tweak? Anything else about this?

    > A lot of the cabinet size depends on ported vs sealed, what port or bass reflex design and what the driver was designed to do. A driver optimized for a sealed enclosure will not usually perform well if stuck in a ported box and vice versa. Back in the day it was large woofers and large cabinets. Now, it's tall slendor boxes with 6" drivers. Some not so good, other brands are able to make the tall speakers sound great through research and technology. Not trying to promote but as an example I am amazed at how well Dynaudio is able to reproduce drums with the big sound they should have. With playing with my Klipsch I am also starting to believe we could be missing something by not having a large woofer. Drum rolls with a large woofer just have a character that most smaller drivers aren't going to be able to reproduce. A sub isn't going to help either because usually they are crossed too low to help where I'm talking about. It seems there is a trend to see how low we can go but don't under estimate the importance of a good mid-bass. I also don't want to dismiss low bass because I am amazed at how well a good sub seems to effect the over all presentation, which to me shows there is something to the harmonics thing.

    Go!
    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

  9. #9
    Forum Regular YBArcam's Avatar
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    I kind of agree that soundstaging is mostly in the recording, but just like other things in the recording you need a system that can bring that out. Separation and resolution and detail...I would guess these are all things necessary to convey width and depth to a soundstage.

    The amp matters but so does the source. Don't ask me why this is exactly, but my Apollo resolves detail and separates instruments much better than my 650BD. Of course, one would expect it to but it was quite alarming for me to actually hear the difference.

    Many say metal domes are too harsh. I had a pair of Energy C-1 speakers that used a metal dome and didn't find then to be harsh at all. But I had a pair of Monitor Audio RS5 that I found to be too much. The conclusion I drew was that if a speaker employs a metal dome, perhaps it's a good idea not to bump up the frequency response in that region. Energy measures quite flat, whereas MA does not.

    I think both driver and cabinet size play a role. Floorstanders get their fuller and bassier sound through larger cabinet volume often with relatively small drivers, but I think a larger driver can provide a more effortless sound and of course will move more air. But doesn't the choice of size largely depend on your room? I found the Monitor Audio RX2 to be way too much speaker for my small room, and the rear ports surely didn't help.
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  10. #10
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Parenthetically, our good buddy RGA has commented for years about "suck out" with B&W models that have high crossover points (like 3500 Hz) from 7" mid/bass drivers, but finds no problem with Audio Note speakers with 8" drivers. Maybe he will enlighten us about this phenomenon.
    Well for me I gave up trying to convince the measurements folks because most of them have not heard the speakers. The AN J was already subject to a level matched blind audition - and it did very well (so did the E) - and that not in corners where they should have been placed. Regardless, most people who have heard a properly set-up AN speaker and Harman speakers choose AN speakers - reviewers who hear most of the speakers out there and have the ears for it clearly do. Compare the representation of speakers sold versus reviewer's purchases and it's not hard to determine which is more preferred. And far more reviewers have auditioned Paradigm that Audio Note.

    As for the crossover the AN speakers are not crossed that high. They are hand tested and the drivers AN uses are slightly different from SEAS and thus the crossover points will be slightly different (not to mention there are several driver choices). They usually are crossed in the low 2khz range. Tested and measured from a corner position which is about 9-10 feet from the listening position. They are tested with real word conditions in mind and influenced by the research of Bell Labs and Acoustician, expert speaker designer (most speaker books reference him) and opera house designer L.L. Beranek not to mention Peter Snell. Their research confirms that sound best comes from corner loading, and that this is the "perfect" box shape ratios.

    The research seems correct from an auditioning stand point as they sound uniform from room to room (so long as there are corners) there is virtually no side wall issues to deal with. The reflective wave follows the direct wave in under 4ms (which is inaudible) so you get a stage as big as your wall or larger, you get no nasties from side walls and they are far clearer and cleaner than any and all free standing designs that I have heard of remotely sensible cost.

    Soundhounds sells Magnepan, Audio Note, Paradigm. All of the sales staff and owner without exception prefer to listen to the Audio Note's. Selling speakers for 35 years listening to all of them set-up by the manufacturers, with the best equipment. Measurements are fine and good and all but I don't listen to measurements - the discussions are always with people who have not heard them or very little. Measurements tell a story, they may even tell you 80% of the story but that 20% can be absolutely critical. For instance the AN E from a corner can produce a "pressure gradient" to use Fred's words which I can not truly account for from measurements - it's there and it is not reproduced from any panel I have heard at any price, nor is it produced from Harman inspired speakers. To me it is the difference between the sensation that instruments are in the room and a box with drivers. The box may have a flatter frequency response but if it does not provide the "real" sensation then it matters not for the ear compensates for minor frequency anomolies - it can fill in those gaps - it can't fill in the pressure. http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=694

    Anyway, I am not going down that road. Choose what you wish and be happy. I am. If you want Audio Note's perspective on measurements talk to Peter as he discusses it on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEUW3...eature=related

  11. #11
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    ....
    As for the crossover the AN speakers are not crossed that high. They are hand tested and the drivers AN uses are slightly different from SEAS and thus the crossover points will be slightly different (not to mention there are several driver choices). They usually are crossed in the low 2khz range. Tested and measured from a corner position which is about 9-10 feet from the listening position. They are tested with real word conditions in mind and influenced by the research of Bell Labs and Acoustician, expert speaker designer (most speaker books reference him) and opera house designer L.L. Beranek not to mention Peter Snell. Their research confirms that sound best comes from corner loading, and that this is the "perfect" box shape ratios.
    ...
    Good stuff, RGA, but it really doesn't answer the question.

    Physics dictates that those 8", (say 6+" radiating diameter), woofers are beaming from 1200 Hz to point where the dome tweeters are taking over 2000 Hz. Since the speakers are beaming in this important mid-range segment, corner placement cannot reinforce the sound in this range.

    BTW, I'm not saying AN speakers can't sound good but if they do it's despite that they beam in an important frequency range.

  12. #12
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    I would love to hear the Esoteric speakers using the magnesium woofers and tweeters. I have read very good reviews and wonder if I like the RS6's because of the tweeters and woofers are all metal. I seem to be sensitive to changes in materials as music is produced by multiple drivers. This was one of my complaints about The Dahlquist DQ 10 back in the days. I am not saying it is a bad speaker just not for me. Other speakers with multiple crossover points have caused audible problems for me.


    The OML 1's with their small baffle provide very good imaging and soundstaging.
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  13. #13
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Good stuff, RGA, but it really doesn't answer the question.

    Physics dictates that those 8", (say 6+" radiating diameter), woofers are beaming from 1200 Hz to point where the dome tweeters are taking over 2000 Hz. Since the speakers are beaming in this important mid-range segment, corner placement cannot reinforce the sound in this range.

    BTW, I'm not saying AN speakers can't sound good but if they do it's despite that they beam in an important frequency range.
    I don't see the point of your argument. You can't hear any beaming and of all the two way speakers I have heard in the last 20 years the speakers are easily the least "directional" of the lot of them. If they beamed they would be directional - they're not.

  14. #14
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Having owned a pair of Smaller Advents I was always impressed by Henry Kloss' design for the Large Advent. He used a combination of a smaller cone on a larger frame so the woofer could make large excursions. This combined with a tweeter that crossed over at 1,000 hz allowed the tweeter to take over befor serious beaming could result. Larger woofers begin to beam when crossed over too high.
    Last edited by JohnMichael; 07-18-2010 at 02:45 AM.
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  15. #15
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Another example of beaming is the two pair of speakers I currently own. Both have 6 1/2 inch woofers and 1 inch tweeters. The OML1's crossed over about 2,000hz and the RS6 are crossed over about 3,000hz. I find the RS6's require more toe-in than the OML1's for the same mid/upper frequency balance. An obvious sign of beaming.
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    I would love to try out AN-K speakers, but they are double my current price point. Once I save up I will definitely make time to listen to them. I watched the video of Peter Qvortrup and I have to admit that the "less is more" way of thinking just seems to make a lot of sense and I think I'm hearing that in my own personal listening.

    As for the Studio 20, which is looking like the front runner to be my next speaker, it's crossed over at 2kHz, and uses the same material for both the woofer and tweeter (and the port too), which is pure aluminum. So I guess this is a good thing. It uses a 2nd order crossover, which I've read in UHF isn't the best, but can be used successfully if executed right.

    I've always toed my speakers in, if just to tighten up the image. Most speakers in my experience sound better this way. When you guys say beaming, do you mean that certain frequencies are fired in a straight line and do not disperse the way the rest of the audio band does?
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    You all got me wondering talking about crossover points. I was thinking 2k puts a lot on a tweeter. Come to find out my t2.5 crosses over at 1600Hz. FWIW I have my speakers pointing forward. The only speaker I've found that I prefer toe in is the Klipsch.

  18. #18
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    You all got me wondering talking about crossover points. I was thinking 2k puts a lot on a tweeter. Come to find out my t2.5 crosses over at 1600Hz. FWIW I have my speakers pointing forward. The only speaker I've found that I prefer toe in is the Klipsch.
    My Missions have no toe in and as a result, off axis listening sounds good. I find that toe in definitely increases the soundstage and in some cases, can create marvelous effects with certain recordings.

    My Sound Dynamics are on either side of a corner. This came as a necessity due to space. One day I decided to toe them in and the result was incredible. There was a real 3D soundstage that went WAY left and right of the speakers. For three piece jazz the seperation was mind boggling, and the players truly did sound like they were in front of me.

    I have done alot of reading on room placement and such. The bottom line is you must get out of your seat and try. Make use of corners and also damping throughout the room.

    As for metal tweeters, my Sound Dynamics have those. Infact, they are very sought after. There is a classic Energy speaker for which they are a drop in, as well as replacing the Sound Dynamics themselves. My experience has been that amplification DOES matter. I have had them on certain combos in which they sound awful. Presently a vintage SX-650 gives them a wonderful sound.

    That's the thing about metal dome, if you can find the right combo, WATCH OUT!! They are simply untouchable and convey the highs in a super fun yet realistic manner. I love 'em.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Speaker Characteristics and Why?-dsc03333.jpg  

  19. #19
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Well for me I gave up trying to convince the measurements folks because most of them have not heard the speakers. The AN J was already subject to a level matched blind audition - and it did very well (so did the E) - and that not in corners where they should have been placed. Regardless, most people who have heard a properly set-up AN speaker and Harman speakers choose AN speakers - reviewers who hear most of the speakers out there and have the ears for it clearly do. Compare the representation of speakers sold versus reviewer's purchases and it's not hard to determine which is more preferred. And far more reviewers have auditioned Paradigm that Audio Note.
    Rich I don't want to feed into Feanor's point, but I think you recall how my AN experience went. If there is one brand I want to hear again, it's them.




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    I realize speaker placement depends on the speaker but it's been my experience when toeing in the bass seems to lose detail or become a bit murky or booming. The Dyn's truly disappear, if you have your eyes close you couldn't tell where they were at and depending on the recording the sound stage typically goes beyond their borders. Toeing in may also have to do with how well a speaker disperses sound. Toeing in may be less necessary the better the dispersion. The Klipsch with the horns needed toed in, limited dispersion compared to the other speakers I've experienced.

  21. #21
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    any speaker's quality is in the ear of the beholder. I tend to shy away from speakers that employ multi-stage crossovers, not to mention various other circuits to compensate baffle step correction, zobel networks, attenuation networks... Some of the best home systems I've heard involved multi-amping, much like car systems.

    I like the wideband driver approach, in which a single driver covers as wide a range as possible (limited number of single drivers do this well), with a supertweeter crossed over where a single driver begins to become peaky (usually around 12khz) and a powered sub to cover the lowest frequencies.

    You gotta hear a good single driver concept speaker at least once in your life, if you haven't.
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  22. #22
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    I realize speaker placement depends on the speaker but it's been my experience when toeing in the bass seems to lose detail or become a bit murky or booming...... Toeing in may also have to do with how well a speaker disperses sound. Toeing in may be less necessary the better the dispersion. The Klipsch with the horns needed toed in, limited dispersion compared to the other speakers I've experienced.
    Canton's need no toe in and the Canton literature tells you not to toe them in. Cantons give a huge sound stage and fills a room with sound...very good dispersion. I have played with toe in with Cantons...a very slight toe in at that, and find the sound stage shrinking but a more intense sound stage. Cantons don't beam at all.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I don't see the point of your argument. You can't hear any beaming and of all the two way speakers I have heard in the last 20 years the speakers are easily the least "directional" of the lot of them. If they beamed they would be directional - they're not.
    Oh come now, RGA! The measurements we have of the AN-E Lexus Signature ($12,200) in Stereophile show it has a dip in the upper midrange lower treble and some unneveness off axis. This is quite clear in the measurements and it certainly has audible effects, though they can be ameliorated to some degree by careful placement and toe-in.

    http://stereophile.com/standloudspea...an/index4.html

    Art Dudley noted that the left hand notes of the piano sounded louder than they should have, which the humpiness from about 150-550 Hz indicates. John Atkinson made some comments on the measurements and his listening:

    "It didn't measure as badly as I expected it to, its designer obviously having worked hard to produce a neutral balance in-room. But I was disappointed by the very lively cabinet and by the discontinuity at the top of the woofer passband, the effects of both of which I could hear with the sample that I measured."

    Here is what Art Dudley said about the 'lower' priced AN-E/SPe HE ($6900), which he didn't mention in his earlier review of the AN-E Lexus Signature:

    "But the woofer's sizeŚor, more to the point, the challenge of crossing over an 8" driver to a very small tweeter while maintaining flat lower-treble response throughout the entire listening areaŚmade itself known as a persistent response dip centered at 2kHz. Sure enough, every Audio Note AN-E speaker I've tried has made voices and some instruments sound a little dark and thick through a portion of their range."

    http://stereophile.com/standloudspea...an/index5.html

    OK, so those things don't bother you and Art Dudley (who at least noticed them!), but the measurements are simply not good enough for me to consider such speakers.
    "Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
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  24. #24
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat D
    Oh come now, RGA! The measurements we have of the AN-E Lexus Signature ($12,200) in Stereophile show it has a dip in the upper midrange lower treble and some unneveness off axis. This is quite clear in the measurements and it certainly has audible effects, though they can be ameliorated to some degree by careful placement and toe-in.

    http://stereophile.com/standloudspea...an/index4.html

    Art Dudley noted that the left hand notes of the piano sounded louder than they should have, which the humpiness from about 150-550 Hz indicates. John Atkinson made some comments on the measurements and his listening:

    "It didn't measure as badly as I expected it to, its designer obviously having worked hard to produce a neutral balance in-room. But I was disappointed by the very lively cabinet and by the discontinuity at the top of the woofer passband, the effects of both of which I could hear with the sample that I measured."

    Here is what Art Dudley said about the 'lower' priced AN-E/SPe HE ($6900), which he didn't mention in his earlier review of the AN-E Lexus Signature:

    "But the woofer's sizeŚor, more to the point, the challenge of crossing over an 8" driver to a very small tweeter while maintaining flat lower-treble response throughout the entire listening areaŚmade itself known as a persistent response dip centered at 2kHz. Sure enough, every Audio Note AN-E speaker I've tried has made voices and some instruments sound a little dark and thick through a portion of their range."

    http://stereophile.com/standloudspea...an/index5.html

    OK, so those things don't bother you and Art Dudley (who at least noticed them!), but the measurements are simply not good enough for me to consider such speakers.

    So is that how RGA is able to enjoy "warm" sounding music on "neutral" gear?
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  25. #25
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchmon
    Canton's need no toe in and the Canton literature tells you not to toe them in. Cantons give a huge sound stage and fills a room with sound...very good dispersion. I have played with toe in with Cantons...a very slight toe in at that, and find the sound stage shrinking but a more intense sound stage. Cantons don't beam at all.
    Mission is the same thing. The seller had the original owner's manual and 700 series sales brochure. They rec NO toe in.

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