Speaker Characteristics and Why?

[Geoffcin]

The issue was that I was supposedly the only reviewer who liked or supported Audio Note speakers - you have two Stereophile reviewers who own the speakers and a third who claimed the room with AN E in was the best sound reproduction he has ever heard.

People will aways like flawed speakers, especially ones they own. Heck I luv my newly re-foamed EPI 180's! I'll put the up against any 2 way speaker with an 8" woofer and 1" dome tweter you can find. Not really a fair fight though as my EPI 180's speakers have 2 woofers and 2 tweeters per cabinet so they will absolutely smoke any speaker with half as many drivers.

[RGA]

Yeah, in my profession I read a lot of graphs. If the data is plotted correctly then it's pretty hard to fake results. I like them because you can see right away if something is going wrong or performing poorly.

If measurements mattered to you then you would not buy Magnepan which have some of the most godawful measurements in the world of loudspeakers - they're not exactly wonders of modern design nor are they even remotely accurate in any sense of the word. And yet you bought them without any actual evidence that they measure even remotely well. Both of these are the Magnepan 3.6

[Geoffcin]

If measurements mattered to you then you would not buy Magnepan which have some of the most godawful measurements in the world of loudspeakers - they're not exactly wonders of modern design nor are they even remotely accurate in any sense of the word. And yet you bought them without any actual evidence that they measure even remotely well. Both of these are the Magnepan 3.6

Did you read what Atkinson wrote? "As I have written before in these pages, measuring physically large speakers with in-room quasi-anechoic techniques is in some ways a fruitless task."

The Magnepans are true wonders of modern design. Continual refinement has been done over 4 decades. I know because I had my first III series back in the 80's and there's been 5 upgrades since. The recently released Magnepan 1.7 has been an unmitigated hit with every reviwer;


While it's a huge upgrade to the 1 line, in typical Magnepan understated style it just moves the designation from 1.6 to 1.7

http://www.avguide.com/blog/magnepan...lified-triumph

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-20...ag=mncol;title

Now the audio world waits with bated breath for the coming of the new Magnepan 3.7!

As it works out in my room for my Magnepan 3.6r speakers, the -3dB for bass is 32Hz. Using a corrected curve with a Rat shack dB meter I get +/- 3dB from 32Hz to 18kHz. The midrange is dead flat from 400Hz- 3kHz +/- 1 dB, with a slightly rising treble response after that. Probably why the sound so good with tube amps that slightly roll off the top end.

[Mr Peabody]

I love this, it's like politics, every one is digging up the dirt on each others speakers

Geoff, in referring to the EPI, you aren't incenuating the more the drivers the better the sound are you?

[Geoffcin]

I love this, it's like politics, every one is digging up the dirt on each others speakers

Geoff, in referring to the EPI, you aren't incenuating the more the drivers the better the sound are you?

No, just that my 30+ year old 2-way EPI 180 speakers with 1" thick particle board construction and rudimentry cross bracing will knock a thin walled unbraced flabby coned two way off it's stand. Gracefully too, as the 1" inverted dome "air spring" tweeter is as sweet as Tipilo honey!

[theaudiohobby]

Bob Hoda is an acoustical consultant, but he does far more than just acoustical work. He does speaker voicing as well, and the results he produces are staggering.

The only wrinkle, hardly anyone, at least here, has heard of him

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The only wrinkle, hardly anyone, at least here, has heard of him

A lot of people here don't know or have not heard of a lot of things, but it does not erase the legitimacy of who they are or what they have accomplished.

[RGA]

Geoffcin

The EPI is a red herring - nothing to do with anything whatsoever.

Yes JA makes excuses for lots of speakers that advertise and doesn't offer the excuse for speaker makers who don't. Further - JA speculates that "MAYBE" the speaker would be better but he has not produced any "projected" graphs or any evidence whatsoever at how the speaker would "actually" measure had he had the appropriate tools - for all you know it could be just as horrendous if not more so. If he can't measure speakers properly then why do them at all - there is nothing in those graphs that I can see anyone with average intelligence can read and say "They will be perfectly flat in my room and are bastions of accuracy." And worse they are very noticably audibly out of kilter - far worse than the Audio Note's but hey that's why my dealer carries both AN E and Magnepans. You'd think at least ONE of them would take the Magnepans over the AN E. In fact it would be nice to hear at least one of them even make comments that would indicate that any of them even "Like" them.

[Geoffcin]

What you call a "Red Herring" is possible the best use of a 1" tweeter and 8" woofer ever devised. Winslow Burhoe designed a myriad of speakers around this "module" and for many years they competed well with others of similar design.


I'm sorry to say those years are long past now, but I still enjoy my flawed 2-way speakers, just like you do yours.

[RGA]

Yes and you enjoy your flawed panels as well - great - we all enjoy imperfect loudspeakers.

[RGA]

I have to say it's always interesting that people will stay with theory above all other matters. I personally don't care if you like what I like - I like Green and you like Red whatever but at least LOOK at the bloody colour Green without saying saying - well I know what green looks like because I have seen Yellow and I have seen Blue and since those two colours make Green I now know exactly what every shade of Green looks like and they all suck because I am not partial to Blue or Yellow.

Lots of speakers have quirky measurements taken in room or measured in ways the designers often did not intend them to be measure. Accept the fact that measurements tell you partial truths and they could be in error. just because it's in a magazine or online does not the truth it make. If you want measurements - Bryston/PMC or Bryston/ATC will be about as good as it gets for land of the living prices. I grew up in the Bryston/PMC belief system so I get it - read some graphs, their pro-gear so it has to be the best. For anyone to switch and stay switched away fro such gear it has to have something - euphoria is nice but it doesn't last.

My point is to make a serious audition. I think there is enough in the review press to warrant serious auditions because the number of reviewers who own them versus the numbers of speaker sales it's way out of proportion.

I posted that Chris Redmond of 6 Moons owned the AN E but take Steve Marsh of the same magzines: "David had a Level 3 system on display in what turned out to be, for me, the best sound of the show.../...The Audio Note room had the most natural sound and fully developed harmonics that always amazes me when considering the seemingly simple two-way speakers Audio Note champions. It was not just the tapes that won me over, either. David played several LPs for me including Miles Davis' Sketches of Spain and Alisson Krauss record and a couple of blues records. I commented that the sound quality, particularly with the Alisson Krauss record, closely approached that of the tape.
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatur...83/vsac_2.html

And at VSAC - A guy who has never heard of them

"A nice big room for a rather average looking system. But this collection of gear really did fill the room with life-like music. .....meanwhile, he was loading another reel of tape in the StellaVox. It's a small 'Nagra-like' reel to reel machine. Someone mentioned that it could play 1 7/8 to 15 ips. The music I heard was big-band circa 1960 or so. Nobody said who it was that was playing. I didn't ask. I hung around for three numbers. Easily, this was the best sounding exhibit that I heard during my visits to the various exhibitor rooms. There was astoundingly good prat. This system has the 'timing thing' very close to being right. Foot-tappin, finger-snappin', and at times jaw-dropping, good music. The speakers and the vacuum tube electronics were Audio Note UK. They have my attention.

.../...Here's a Teres 265 with the Verus option. It was spinning a Glen Miller Lp. There was some good rhythmic 'snap' to the sound coming off this system. Maybe Chris Brady, the principal at Teres, is on to something with this 'direct coupled' wheel driven turntable of his. But after coming from the Audio Note room, everything else sounded.......... much less. -- http://www.theanalogdept.com/vsac08.htm

Anyway -it's up to you - frankly if people actually do want to try them and they like them they'll have to wait forever to get any anyway. It's getting into the year long wait list territory so it's probably best to avoid auditioning them just in case I am right.

[Geoffcin]

Yes and you enjoy your flawed panels as well - great - we all enjoy imperfect loudspeakers.

Your damn right I enjoy them! I enjoy them so much I don't feel the need to prattle on about them incessantly, or hijack every thread I post in about how wonderful they are, or how x or y has them and thinks they're better than heroin mainlined directly into the carotid. No, if I did crap like that people would write me off as a common "fanboy" or worse, someone who has to prove to HIMSELF that he didn't get taken to the cleaners buying aged flawed technology that just can't compete with modern designed speakers. No, you'll never catch me doing something so sad and pathetic.

[theaudiohobby]

A lot of people here don't know or have not heard of a lot of things, but it does not erase the legitimacy of who they are or what they have accomplished.

Very true..

[poppachubby]

Honestly, can any of you guys say that you bought speakers based on a graph or stats?!? Has it even made up 20% of your decision?

I will be honest, I could care less about graphs and such. If they grab my attention and sound good to me, that's enough.

You guys are getting all excited about speakers because of some charts? C'mon...

[Geoffcin]

Honestly, can any of you guys say that you bought speakers based on a graph or stats?!? Has it even made up 20% of your decision?

I will be honest, I could care less about graphs and such. If they grab my attention and sound good to me, that's enough.

You guys are getting all excited about speakers because of some charts? C'mon...

I think your missing the point. Graphs don't have personal preferences, people do. When I read a review I want to see the graph too. Just like driving, I find it easier to find my way with a map rather than someones subjective directions. I don't think anyone gets excited about a graph, but if it reinforces the findings of the reviewer then it gets my attention. Certainly the Axiom sub that I reviewed was superb by any standard, but when you see the ruler flat response (they use DSP to achieve this) you can really say WOW, this is technology that works!

[RGA]

Deleted - unnecessary

[Geoffcin]

Then again if you REALLY liked them you might want to rave about them - not rave worthy obviously. Magnepan is older technology. And you don't want to know what the parts cost in those stand up carpets. Talk about taken to the cleaners LOL.

Actually they are quite easy to clean. I'll admit that they do take some room to make them sound their best. Probably not the best speaker for a small apartment. However if you've got the room, and a decent amp there's nothing quite like them! Don't believe me? I don't care as long as this little guy does!

[Pat D]

Geoffcin

The EPI is a red herring - nothing to do with anything whatsoever.

Yes JA makes excuses for lots of speakers that advertise and doesn't offer the excuse for speaker makers who don't. Further - JA speculates that "MAYBE" the speaker would be better but he has not produced any "projected" graphs or any evidence whatsoever at how the speaker would "actually" measure had he had the appropriate tools - for all you know it could be just as horrendous if not more so. If he can't measure speakers properly then why do them at all - there is nothing in those graphs that I can see anyone with average intelligence can read and say "They will be perfectly flat in my room and are bastions of accuracy." And worse they are very noticably audibly out of kilter - far worse than the Audio Note's but hey that's why my dealer carries both AN E and Magnepans. You'd think at least ONE of them would take the Magnepans over the AN E. In fact it would be nice to hear at least one of them even make comments that would indicate that any of them even "Like" them.

Your ignorance of measurements is appalling for a reviewer. In the past, I have advised you to simply ignore the measurements if they don't mean anything to you. John Atkinson's suite of measurements isn't designed for dipoles and is not ideal for them. The results should be interpreted significantly differently below several hundred Hz and JA indicates this.

http://stereophile.com/floorloudspea...20/index7.html

Why don't you look at the room measurements of a dipole speaker such as the Quad 989 or the older ESL-63?

http://stereophile.com/floorloudspea...20/index9.html

http://stereophile.com/floorloudspea...6/index11.html

See, the room measurements look much better than the quasi-anechoic ones.

[Mr Peabody]

Your damn right I enjoy them! I enjoy them so much I don't feel the need to prattle on about them incessantly, or hijack every thread I post in about how wonderful they are, or how x or y has them and thinks they're better than heroin mainlined directly into the carotid. No, if I did crap like that people would write me off as a common "fanboy" or worse, someone who has to prove to HIMSELF that he didn't get taken to the cleaners buying aged flawed technology that just can't compete with modern designed speakers. No, you'll never catch me doing something so sad and pathetic.

Glad we have no one like that here.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Glad we have no one like that here.

Snicker, snicker, snicker.....

[Mr Peabody]

Honestly, can any of you guys say that you bought speakers based on a graph or stats?!? Has it even made up 20% of your decision?

I will be honest, I could care less about graphs and such. If they grab my attention and sound good to me, that's enough.

You guys are getting all excited about speakers because of some charts? C'mon...

Graphs........ we don't need no stinking graphs!

[hifitommy]

oh NO! planar speakers MEASURE poorly. damm, and i was BSing myself into thinking that my MMGs sound good. and my friend's martin logan reQuests....duhhh! i must have been hallucinating.

next time, before i trust my ears, i am going to have the response curve of the speaker i am considering tattooed on my inner eyelids.

RGA--Deleted - unnecessary--gee, i hope that was a graph.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

oh NO! planar speakers MEASURE poorly. damm, and i was BSing myself into thinking that my MMGs sound good. and my friend's martin logan reQuests....duhhh! i must have been hallucinating.

next time, before i trust my ears, i am going to have the response curve of the speaker i am considering tattooed on my inner eyelids.

RGA--Deleted - unnecessary--gee, i hope that was a graph.

They can measure poorly and still meet an individuals taste. A speaker that has excellent measurements usually sound better to many people, not just an individual.

[Pat D]

Honestly, can any of you guys say that you bought speakers based on a graph or stats?!? Has it even made up 20% of your decision?

I will be honest, I could care less about graphs and such. If they grab my attention and sound good to me, that's enough.

You guys are getting all excited about speakers because of some charts? C'mon...

I have used measurements (graphs, as you put it) to screen out speakers for some years now. I now look for really outstanding frequency response and horizontal dispersion and not too finicky vertical dispersion. I can't audition every speaker out there so I have to cut down the numbers somehow, and it may as have an objective basis. So far, the speakers that qualify have sounded really good.

I first heard my current speakers before anyone reviewed them and they sounded fantastic. I usually try to listen to a speaker using full orchestra with massed strings, male and female vocals, mixed chorus, and piano. Most speakers don't pass, and the ones that do I try with a lot more material. So I wasn't surprised that they measured very well.

Now, I have gotten better at this with time, but you know, I have always gotten speakers that I like for the long term. I don't change them very often. Measurements can help.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Honestly, can any of you guys say that you bought speakers based on a graph or stats?!? Has it even made up 20% of your decision?

Measurements are exactly half of my decision making process, and listening is the other. A speaker with a very good measured frequency response is like having a blank canvas. When you put that speaker in a room there is less equalization needed(you just need to tweak it a bit), and quite frankly less room treatments as well because you are already starting off with a well behaved set of speakers. If you sit closer to the speaker than you are to the nearest walls, you need very little eq.

If the speaker measures poorly, its like having a bad painting already done. If you try to fix that painting so it looks better, you often make it worse than it already is. That is the benefit of paying attention to a speakers measured response, and why some mag include measurements along with reviews.

I will be honest, I could care less about graphs and such. If they grab my attention and sound good to me, that's enough.

You can do this because you are the sole listener. However if your system is shared by others, or will be heard by others, it better to achieve a frequency response that appeals to a greater amount of people. I can convince myself that something sounds good, but can I convince others? That is the question.

You guys are getting all excited about speakers because of some charts? C'mon...

If you don't have some standard to abide by, then you are guaranteed chaos. This is why there are standards for film presentation, standards for speaker placement, standards for proper calibration of your speakers and video display devices. With a standard, you can make recordings that are transferable from speaker to speaker.

One of the best things I learned from Bob Hoda is that you use identical equalization curves for every listening room you have, and regardless of the speakers you use. That way you are much closer to what is heard in the recording studio no matter what system you play the recording on, and no matter which room it sits in.