Speaker Characteristics and Why?

[Worf101]

Thanks everyone for a VERY informative and spirited discussion on what I consider the "meat" of audio, speakers. Speakers are where the rubber meets the road, the last piece of kit before the music meets your ears so to speak. I came late to the audio game. My first set of speaks were a pair of cheapo JVC's from "Mom's Stereo". Muddy, with limited detail and no imaging to speak of, but I thought they were the chiznit because they gave me great thumping bass. My first true "speakers" were a set of Ohm Walsh2's that I still own. These were a revelation that helped me realize that there's more to music than bass and more to the chain than just the speakers. I've learned a LOT here since 2000.

With my introduction to better than average speakers I, kinda like TheKid, went retro with my speaker choices going with Ohm's, Epicure/EPI, ADS and finally Platinum Audio. I dearly want to own some Snell's but that'll have to wait. Some speakers I like, some I've hated, some I flat out love. It's more art than science to me though. It's kinda like beauty, I know it when I see it.

Worf

[Pat D]

Patd

Fair enough PatD. I thought you were suggesting they were accurate or that Toole's research was some sort of vindication for your "preferences" - this is how I read some of your posts which may not be your intent.

As for descriptors people use different adjectives to describe sound. I have never reviewed the AN E. I have never formally reviewed the S2. In most cases I try to preselect speakers I want to review because I don't really want to waste time reviewing products that I don't much like.

The notion of experience comes up from time to time but I think you give credit to reviewers who support your position and not to those who don't. I was on about Audio Note E speakers for quite a long time before Stereophile. It's nice to have far more experienced and veteran reviewers like Art Dudley, Paul Messenger, Constantine Soo, Fred Crowder, Wes Philips arrive after many years at a place that I got to in my early 30's. Art is not a lavish spender - he raved about a playstation to be used as a CD player (of all the writers that should be up the objectivists ally) - he's the only major reviewer I know of who came out for a $20 cd player. His vinyl system is relatively thrifty and he said this about a $1300 amplifier kit. http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/...w_Listener.pdf Art is one of the few reviewers out there looking to save a buck - so please don't suggest that he would pay $7,000 for a speaker and try to suggest that he just likes to show off. For him it is all about the sound and he's out to save people a buck.

The issue I take with your posts and I will try and get this across - is that you tend to support your opinion with the suggestion you are 100% correct on your preference because the measurements somehow support what you would buy. You have done it here by suggesting that JA is a better listener than me because he describes sourness in a Clarinet. Is there objective evidence that that is the S2 or the recording? Is he a better listener because he likes the S2 and I don't? Does that mean Art is tone deaf because he chose a speaker that doesn't conform to Toole's research. That's the way I read your posts. If JA and Soundstage like it then it is the best. If it's not a speaker that fits in that round hole then it is a lousy speaker and anyone buying it must have lesser hearing or likes euphonics. I could even accept those views had the person making those sorts of innuendos if he/she actually auditioned that which he/she condemns.

As for Stereophile - Art mentioned in the recommend listening that he felt the AN E should be class A+++ or something to this effect. I understand the appeal of lists but they're extremely dangerous just as things like rottentomatoes is dangerous in that you could take 100 critics and 80 of them could give the movie 3/5 for a recommendation, 10 could give it 4/5 a stronger recommendation, and 5 could give it a RAVE and five could give it a thumbs down. The movie scores 95% recommended so you say this is going to be great - all the critics agree. Conversely you could have a movie that gets 50 RAVE 5/5 reviews, 20 strong 4/5 reviews 10 recommended 3/5 reviews and the rest thumbs down. The movie has 80% which is lesser as a statistic but you have FAR greater chance that you will LOVE the second movie than you have of loving the first. Granted you have a greater chance of not liking it all with the second film.

The issue crops up in the review press. You have a reviewer review a certain number of pieces per year. They may review 3-12 pieces of gear over the year. A best in class list comes out but really how many people heard the specific speakers on a given staff. Maybe two. So you have one guy who LOVES the product to death and the second one gives it a solid but not rave review - so they cut the recommendation to a safer slightly lowered tier. Which is fair in some respects if the item is idiosyncratic. Hi-fi Choice does this and it makes some sense. They loved the OTO integrated - felt that none of the other amps in their group tests sounded as nice - but gave it 4 stars out of five. But that's fair because the amp is very low power has few features, no remote and won't play well with the average consumer speaker purchase. That is a completely fair rating and solid reasoning. Though it certainly makes it worth a listen if you do have the partnering gear so it would be a huge mistake to just see the 4 star rating and skip to the next amp - the next amp that got 5 stars but they felt didn't sound as good as one that got 4.

As for politics this is an issue for several companies. And you have conversed with Peter on AA. And certainly he doesn't mince words in person. He is not exactly the most loved guy when it comes to the press and he as well as Andy Grove and JA have been at it on AA a few times. It is not at all surprising that the reviewer who gets AN gear is the guy who got AN gear when he ran Listener. Taking personal bias out of it when you are not on good terms with the manufacturer is difficult to take out of the review.

As for Schneider or anyone else choosing the S2 - to be perfectly blunt it is not something I would argue against. If you're budget is in that $2k camp it's not like there are a lot of terrible loudspeakers or speakers that truly standout from the heap. I look at the $2k speakers sold at Soundhounds and there is Paradigm, Magnepan's 1.6, soem B&W's - a standmount and a floorstander, maybe a Sonus Faber and a Dynaudio. If standmounts that size are your thing then the S2 or 20 arguably are as good as anything in that price range I suspect.

But any ratings should be taken with a grain of salt because there are many factors other than sound in play with most of them.

When people ask about speakers, I try to recommend some I think most people would like. The research shows that most people like speakers with an even frequency response, wide and even dispersion, and low distortion--at least, those are the ones most prefer under blind conditions. I also recommend people audition speakers with a variety of program materials, take the best ones for home auditions, and pick the ones they like.

A while ago, I suggested a number of good speakers, including Paradigm Signatures, to a fellow living in Australia. He wrote me that he hadn't considered Paradigm until I mentioned them. When he auditioned some of the Signatures, he was, of course, amazed at their natural, neutral and musical sound. He thanked me for suggesting them and bought a pair. He is a very satisfied customer.

Art Dudley's columns are a good source for the beliefs and attitudes of a kind of audio subculture. I don't pay much attention to them.

[RGA]

Patd

Why do you feel it necessary to paint Art is some kind of kook and can only like subcutlure whacky stuff? I just can't see all those numerous other reviewers who buy them (Buy them having heard the likes of Paradigm) all being tone deaf poor hearing lacking in training and experienced individuals. Most every magazine in print and online has at least one review on staff with AN speakers. We're all wrong?

Even Soundstage has not had an Audio Note speaker since 2000 which was a floorstander called the AZ Two which is a $900 little floorstander. And was their Reviewer's Choice in 2000.

"Once the speakers were driven for a few hours, what immediately impressed me about them was the heft and detail of the bass, the clarity of the upper bass and lower midrange (particularly considering the corner placement) and the transparency and detail in the midrange. Bass was pleasantly extended and powerful, with subjective extension to a very solid 40Hz and usable bass reaching to perhaps 35Hz. Soundstaging was panoramic (how could it not be -- it went wall to wall!) and imaging was quite good -- which surprised me. While not quite up to minimonitor standards, voices were more focused and stable in the center (even when I was seated off-axis) than they had any right to be, and they were surrounded by a fairly delineated stage of performers. The AZ-Two has a slightly forward upper midrange, giving it an energetic sound, and the treble falls back into line, making it acceptably smooth and lacking in irritation. I can blast Audio Note all day about the aesthetics of the AZ-Twos, but they are some of the best near-full-range $900 speakers I’ve heard. If you are on a budget and sound is more important than looks, these are worth a long listen -- no matter what your electronics.../... http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/a...ero_system.htm

[Pat D]

Patd

Why do you feel it necessary to paint Art is some kind of kook and can only like subcutlure whacky stuff? I just can't see all those numerous other reviewers who buy them (Buy them having heard the likes of Paradigm) all being tone deaf poor hearing lacking in training and experienced individuals. Most every magazine in print and online has at least one review on staff with AN speakers. We're all wrong?

Even Soundstage has not had an Audio Note speaker since 2000 which was a floorstander called the AZ Two which is a $900 little floorstander. And was their Reviewer's Choice in 2000.

"Once the speakers were driven for a few hours, what immediately impressed me about them was the heft and detail of the bass, the clarity of the upper bass and lower midrange (particularly considering the corner placement) and the transparency and detail in the midrange. Bass was pleasantly extended and powerful, with subjective extension to a very solid 40Hz and usable bass reaching to perhaps 35Hz. Soundstaging was panoramic (how could it not be -- it went wall to wall!) and imaging was quite good -- which surprised me. While not quite up to minimonitor standards, voices were more focused and stable in the center (even when I was seated off-axis) than they had any right to be, and they were surrounded by a fairly delineated stage of performers. The AZ-Two has a slightly forward upper midrange, giving it an energetic sound, and the treble falls back into line, making it acceptably smooth and lacking in irritation. I can blast Audio Note all day about the aesthetics of the AZ-Twos, but they are some of the best near-full-range $900 speakers I’ve heard. If you are on a budget and sound is more important than looks, these are worth a long listen -- no matter what your electronics.../... http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/a...ero_system.htm

Here's one of the things you said about Art Dudley:

" For him it is all about the sound and he's out to save people a buck."

I am sure he's a nice guy, and is well motivated. He writes well and entertainingly. He even likes some of the same recordings I do--for example, I remember he mentioned the recording of Sibelius' Violin Concerto with Ruggiero Ricci, violin, conducted by Oivin Fjelstad, which is my favorite recording of the work. No one says he is tone deaf as far as I know. His preferences for speakers seem to be far different from mine. But alas, he also buys into all sorts of ideas about audio which have been debunked by people who know more technically about audio than he does. That goes for many reviewers, so in that respect, he is not at all unusual. He writes more entertainingly than most, though, and I suspect the reason many like him so much is that he reinforces their views..

As for picking reviewers who agree with me, I should point out that it is you who keep telling me that some reviewers have Audio Note speakers. But when I rejoin that Doug Schneider bought the Paradigm Signature S2 speakers, I am supposed to be cherry picking? If it's OK for you to mention who buys AN speakers, I surely have the right to point out someone who bought Paradigm Signature speakers. Unlike you, Doug Schneider didn't just say they were good at the price:

"Paradigm has fashioned a state-of-the-art bookshelf classic that is the benchmark by which other minimonitors should be judged -- and costs around $2000 per pair."

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/p...gnature_s2.htm

In a later review, Schneider compared the PSB Platinum M2 with the Signature S2:

"The S2 and M2 embody the pinnacle of common-sense two-way bookshelf-speaker design. For $2000 you should expect a lot, and both speakers deliver a lot. Despite how good these speakers look and how well they’re made, you can also spend more and get something that has even more sex appeal and whizzier cabinet materials. In terms of sound quality, though, I have yet to hear a two-way speaker that can outperform these two Canadian champs across the board."

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/psb_platinum_m2.htm

I won't pain you with what Andrew Marshall has said about the Paradigm Signature and PSB Synchrony speakers. If you want to play the game of speakers liked by reviewers, I can do that, too.

I should point out that my favorites among current speaker reviewers, John Atkinson, Doug Schneider, and Andrew Marshall, all buy into a lot of the same audio subculture, though all three also do speaker measurements. JA measures a lot of electronics, too. All three like the Paradigm Signature speakers a lot, also the PSB Synchrony series speakers. Just because they buy into an audiophile subculture hardly means they cannot listen to speakers, though I much prefer subjective comments when accompanied by a good set of measurements.

[tom1967]

Had a chance here in Palm Beach area to hear a set of Birds Eye maple AN-Js next to a set of old Klipsch Cornwalls which are my all time favorites for 2 channel music (you can throw a blanket over 100 other brands if you are talking about 5 Channel HT). The ANs sound great with all the advantages of the Cornwalls and just flat out less fatiguing....and surprisingly very efficient which lends itsef to use with tubes, if you are so inclined.The ANs made you forget there was a box there emitting sound which is the main thing I look for. I just wish they could find a way to sharpen the price point on these. As for Paradigms, I own a set of their Studio 20s......impressive build quality and no specific complaints, but just dont distinguish themselves for the price among the sea of competitors....kind of the flavor of the day that replaced B & W as the darlings of sites like this.....

[Mr Peabody]

Tom, have you heard the Klipsch RF63, if so, your opinion?

[tom1967]

This probably should be a separate post.....see attached blind sound test.....Their little brother did well indeed and if you read the responses that follow, I commented that the competition was based on music, whereas the Klipsch would tend to shine on HT....beyond that you can buy the Klipsch at considerable discount over the prices quoted.....This one brought out the Klipsch haters. I think the whole series is a great value..and, people need to know that the Klipsch horn thing is badly exaggerated...they are vestigial horns and nothing like the pre 80s giant metal folded jobs...

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...010-1k-faceoff

[Mr Peabody]

I used to be a bit of a Klipsch basher based on a home demo of a pair of KLF and some of the Best Buy stuff but have since changed my mind when I heard a friend's Khorns. I picked up a pair of Heresy III and have been playing with them. I heard the RF63 briefly driven by an Integra receiver and was pretty impressed and they were noteably better than the RF82. I also picked up a pair of used Forte. So I know Klipsch can make good models. I heard a couple pair of Palladium which were very good but a bit pricy.

[RGA]

Tom

Audio Note is a tiny operation and bringing the price down will be difficult. Whether one likes the speaker is somewhat subjective but the physical parts cost more than average to make. Russian birch ply is more expensive than MDF - and the heat cool treating when the cabinets are put together is a little more involved than simply using some plastic molds as most speakers seem to use and then slapping a laminate over top. The cabling is more expensive in terms of raw materials and the process with which to make them. They all have to be hand matched which means every speaker sits on a bench and a human being is spending a couple of hours with them. Not an assembly line of people sticking in a driver screwing them together down the line in 12 minutes and 6 seconds and board meetings in an office some place to get that down to 9 minutes and 4 seconds to generate another million a year.

British Union wages, Expensive parts and shipped around the world.

It still amazes me that that AX Two speaker can sell for $700 when the whole thing is hand built in Denmark, using Vifa drivers, good wiring and connections - and shipped over here. The website's grand advertising is that it's a nearfield monitor "designed as a general purpose small loudspeakers, and will work well with almost any amplifier." Couple of Vifa drivers in a quasi-horn loaded box. A lot of speakers at my dealer have a lot of trouble against these "zero" level speakers if human voice and acoustics are vital. The next time I am in Victoria I may pick up a demo pair.

On the price front, AN does have kit products to help people save some money. They're based in Canada (though the speaker kit I heard was no match for the production models - but to be fair the kit builder may have made a mistake somewhere. I would want another audition before I say one way or the other).

Some rumblings that they would have a plant in Canada and or the U.S which would reduce prices - but that would mean Peter would not be able to oversee everything that is going on. At CES I asked him if AN was planning to make a Radio tuner since it seems like that's one part of the chain that is missing. His reply was that he does make them and have for years and he of course thinks his are the best. So I asked him why is it not on the website? His reply was "Then someone would want to buy one and we would have to make them." That says it all really.

They have a couple of other turntables in the line-up, a speed changing external motor for my TT2 turntable, piles of stuff they have made and don't advertise - they can't keep up.

While I am at my dealer I am mainly going to get a power amp for my Rotel preamp. I sorta want to buy a SS system *shrug* just to be able to say I have one. The Preamp is quite decent for the price and for being SS. They may have an Arcam, Rotel, or Quad power amp. SS power amps for low money make sense.

Maybe I'll go Wednesday. I have a new car and the stereo is pitiful. The last time I seriously shopped for car audio, Alpine was one of the better makes and MB Quart was king of the higher fidelity speakers. I went to best buy and it was all plasticy junk. Soundhounds carries the Nakamichi Decks and Boston Acoustics car speakers but geez every dollar that goes to the car doesn't go the home stereo.

[Mr Peabody]

The story I heard was Peter had Oompa Loompas building the AN speakers.

[Geoffcin]

Any speaker that would produce a response like this in room is flawed in a way that can't be fixed by any kind of placement.

If any of my speakers displayed such characteristics I would call them broken.

[Mr Peabody]

Any speaker that would produce a response like this in room is flawed in a way that can't be fixed by any kind of placement.

If any of my speakers displayed such characteristics I would call them broken.

What speaker is that graph for?

[Geoffcin]

What speaker is that graph for?

The blue line was Oompa Loompa built.

Just goes to show you; A flawed design will always produce a flawed result.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Any speaker that would produce a response like this in room is flawed in a way that can't be fixed by any kind of placement.

If any of my speakers displayed such characteristics I would call them broken.

That is one nasty frequency response. How could anyone release a speaker with this kind of curve and call it good sounding?

[JohnMichael]

That is one nasty frequency response. How could anyone release a speaker with this kind of curve and call it good sounding?

Maybe their ears measure poorly and to them that sounds natural. I remember an old audio tale and may not have it correct but it is about a speaker designer who attended many concerts in his reserved seats. He would design his speakers based on what he heard at the concert. His seats were not in a good acoustical space so his speakers were not good either.

There is also the story of the designer that as his high frequency hearing was diminishing his speakers were becoming brighter.

[Pat D]

That is one nasty frequency response. How could anyone release a speaker with this kind of curve and call it good sounding?

Well, those are room responses. Actually, they are for two speakers in Art Dudley's room as measured by John Atkinson and the quasi-anechoic responses would not be quite so bad looking, though they are not great. The blue line is for the Harbeth M40.1 ($6900/pr) and the red line if for the Audio Note AN-E SPe HE ($12,995/pr). We don't have quasi-anechoic measurements for the AN speaker but you can find the measurements for the AN-E Lexus Signature ($12,200/pr). You'll find the two curves here, and you can find the quasi-anechoic curves easily enough:

http://stereophile.com/standloudspea...an/index6.html

Remember, we have one reviewer's word for it that these are widely recognized as some of the finest speakers in the world!

[basite]

That is one nasty frequency response. How could anyone release a speaker with this kind of curve and call it good sounding?

because it sells for too much money to say that it doesn't sound good...

[frenchmon]

Ok...you guys got me because I dont know a thing about reading those grafts. So class is in...some one kindly educate me.

[frenchmon]

If that one is bad then so is these....and I know both of these speakers sound good.

So maybe charts and grafts dont tell the whole story.




The Red is Dynaudio Confidence C4 and the Blue is Canton Vento Reference 1 DC


http://www.stereophile.com/floorloud...94/index8.html

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Both Speakers are in the same class range and cost about the same price. And I dont know what any of it means.

[frenchmon]

This is the Monitor Audio Silver Rs6. I guess it has to be bad as well and I've heard nothing but praise for it.

Again.I haven't a clue. IF any body wants to teach me or send me to get a book im open.



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Fig.3 Monitor Audio Silver RS6, anechoic response on tweeter axis at 50", averaged across 30° horizontal window and corrected for microphone response, with the nearfield responses of the midrange unit (blue), woofer (red), upper, rear port (magenta), and lower, front port (green).

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloud...or/index3.html

[poppachubby]

Maybe their ears measure poorly and to them that sounds natural. I remember an old audio tale and may not have it correct but it is about a speaker designer who attended many concerts in his reserved seats. He would design his speakers based on what he heard at the concert. His seats were not in a good acoustical space so his speakers were not good either.

There is also the story of the designer that as his high frequency hearing was diminishing his speakers were becoming brighter.

I recall the audio tale about the designer who was lonely and lived with his parents, never married and a virgin. He made speakers in which a hand would come out of the woofer and pleasure you. Oh and they had great soundstage.

[RGA]

Pat D

One reviewer's word?

Constantine Soo Dagogo.com - Owns two pairs of AN E speakers http://www.dagogo.com/View-Staff.asp?hStaff=1

Jack Roberts dagogo.com AN E ( he moved to the Teresonic Ingeniums which is a fine move - not one I would make but he doesn't really have a room suitable so the move makes since - the point though he did own them http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=351

Art Dudley - Owns AN E speakers http://www.stereophile.com/standloud...an/index5.html

Chris Redmond - 6 moons - AN E speaker owner http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/c...ristopher.html

Peter Van Willenswaard - Stereophile contributing measuring guru - owns AN E speakers http://www.stereophile.com/reference/357/index1.html

Hi-Fi Choice Magazine - uses AN E speakers as a reference. they bought a pair in 1992 and then again in 2003 - not available on line

Paul Messenger - Hi-fi Critic, Hi-Fi Choice and others - placed them on a list of the five best speakers made in their best of list.

Steven Rochlin - Editor of enjoythemusic.com - owns AN J speakers

Leonard Norwitz - classical composer and reviewer for enjoythemusic.com - Owns AN E speakers - he left his career to be a dealer because he liked them so much. In fact he owns

Playback Equipment:

Audio Note Io-Gold MC phono cartridge
Triplanar Tonearm
Voyd Reference 3-motor turntable
Audio Note AN-S9 MC transformer
Audio Note M8 preamplifier
Audio Note Baransu 300B amplifier
Audio Note AN-E/SE Sig
Audio Note silver interconnect & speaker wire http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...00b_carbon.htm

Bob Neill - Positive Feedback Magazine - liked AN so much he left reviewing and became a dealer.

Wes Philips - Stereophile "Forget best sound of show, for sheer emotional delivery, timbral clarity, dynamic agility, and, yes, the highest fidelity, the Audio Note system may have been the best hi-fi I have ever heard. It was one of those magical moments that we audiophiles put up with all of the hassles for. After the Audio Note demo. the rest was noise, so I quit on a winner. Not many people who come to Vegas can say that." http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2009/...means_ecstasy/

This is just some off the top of my head - only 5% of their business in North America - plenty of magazines in Asia, the mid east, Russia etc. And that's just speakers. The numbers of reviewers who own CD players and Amps is also disproportionately high.

[Geoffcin]

If that one is bad then so is these....and I know both of these speakers sound good.

So maybe charts and grafts dont tell the whole story.




The Red is Dynaudio Confidence C4 and the Blue is Canton Vento Reference 1 DC


http://www.stereophile.com/floorloud...94/index8.html

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Both Speakers are in the same class range and cost about the same price. And I dont know what any of it means.

No, these reading aren't bad at all, in fact these are REALLY GOOD!

If you look carefully you can see the response from both speakers at 20Hz is about 0dB, that's HUGE bass extension! These are TRUE full range speakers. There's a high Q 10dB bump at 100Hz for both speakers that's most likely caused by a room node. After that both traces are remarkable smooth with the Dyn being not only incredibly smooth from 500Hz- 8kHz, but nearly perfectly flat too, where the Canton is on a slow downward trend.

From that I read that the Dyn would sound a bit brighter than the Canton which slowly rolls off in the treble. The Dyn also has a bit more bass in-room than the Canton. But even with that, both the Dyn and the Canton are incredibly good and flat in the really important area where human voice is. Just my guess but both of these speakers should sound magical with female singers with the nod going to the Dyn for overall presentation. The Dyn also looks like it would have the more powerful presentation of the two, but with BOTH of them able to fully capture large scale music easily.

Yes, you really can read all of that from a graph! It's also important to have at least a couple of speakers measured so you can see the room in the graph as well as the speakers.

[Geoffcin]

This is the Monitor Audio Silver Rs6. I guess it has to be bad as well and I've heard nothing but praise for it.

Again.I haven't a clue. IF any body wants to teach me or send me to get a book im open.



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Fig.3 Monitor Audio Silver RS6, anechoic response on tweeter axis at 50", averaged across 30° horizontal window and corrected for microphone response, with the nearfield responses of the midrange unit (blue), woofer (red), upper, rear port (magenta), and lower, front port (green).

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloud...or/index3.html

Actually that looks like +/- 3dB from 35Hz - 15kHz to me. Pretty darn good!

The spike at 20kHz and the hashy colored lines are not audible.

[RGA]

Art's listening room http://forum.stereophile.com/photopo...php/photo/146/ and
http://forum.stereophile.com/photopo....php/photo/205

Both the Harbeth and AN show quite a bit of the room in those measurements. Both speakers have been around 30+ years while their great speakers get dumped for new an unimproved models every 5 or less. It's laughable.