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  1. #76
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    I'm a big fan of Boston Acoustics, so I say give their VR-M series a shot.

    www.bostonacoustics.com

  2. #77
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    I never meant to say that Genelecs measurments are false. I dont even know the speaker. Next time i word it better. Anyways, i have a couple of buddys in england which are a small rock band and they play in local pubs
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  3. #78
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    That's great, where do they live, I love good rock music , saying that it seems that the German rocks bands are doing real good these days.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Roll
    Re-read my posts again. I have in fact heard all of the speakers that I've commented on - especially the Genelecs. It was in a professional environment where they seriously let me down - specs or no specs.
    Your posts were vague, no mention of any specfic genelec model, then you say the PMC AML1 is a similarly priced competitor, when infact it costs almost USD2K more, then you throw the NS-10 into the frame, talking about the AML1 and 8050 and the NS-10 in the same breath, what do you expect me to think?

  5. #80
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    That's great, where do they live, I love good rock music , saying that it seems that the German rocks bands are doing real good these days.

    Not listening to german rock bands i wouldnt know :-) I just hate listening to music in my own language. Sorry england and america j/k

    I gotta ask him again, the name is ****ed up and the website even more. Ill ask tough/
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Not listening to german rock bands i wouldnt know :-) I just hate listening to music in my own language.
    so funny,

  7. #82
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    Yes, looking back at my posting my statement was very bold regarding the Triangle Celius or Antal speakers. However, the thread here is for the Best Speaker for around $2,000- Well according to Stereophile and many other industry experts the Celius is the only full range class A speaker for around $2,000. Although, I recall reading an article in a recent audio publication (I beleive it was Stereophile), that Triangle has now redesigned it's speakers slightly and upgraded some of the components (therefore the price will also be increasing). However, I'm sure some dealers are still selling the Celius 202's.

    My opinion was based on Attending the Home Theatre show at the New York Hilton for two years in a row. I listened to speakers ranging from a few hundred dollars to towers of speakers for a few thousand dollars. In the end the room I ended up comming back to along with many others was the Triangle Rooms. How could such a reasonably priced speaker produce such perfect sound. The answer lies in the engineering and listening test.

    Triangle started out as a supplier of high end audio components and then started producing its own products. Most Speaker manufactures do not produce thier own components from inception. Bottom line is that in the price range of this thread, the Triangle speaker is the only Class A Full Range Speaker. Also, yes my ear and preference is generally towards classical music, jazz and clearly defined midrange. All of which the Triangle natural paper woofers do an exceptional job at. I agree with thier philosophy of using natural materials to produce a more natural sound. At my office at work I listen to a little Tivoli Audio radio and couldn't be happier.

    Yes, in the end the individual must love what they purchase, especially at a $2,000 price tag. I would be curious what MusicLG thinks of the Triangles versus the others if he has the opportunity to audition them.

  8. #83
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    audiohobby, read my posts carefully. I know I don't include specs in my descriptions,
    not every idea is to be presented in a grid. The best musicians that I studied with always taught in such a way. Not scribbling down notation, but rather explaining in way which caused me to listen and think about what they were saying. Maybe I'm unclear at times, I can always restate.

    Also I never said that the PMC's that I heard were a similarly priced competitor. This isn't a What Hifi? supertest - I was just recalling some "studio monitors" that I could actually trust listening to. I never said that they were a better bargain than anything else, I was just adding to RGA's opinon of PMC.

  9. #84
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    Buzz Roll,

    In your post you refer to the Genelec as overpriced, now Genelec has over 15 different models whilst further down you praise the PMC AML1 as being a very good monitor, it had be at USD5.2K, I happen to think that your comments refer to the 1000 series, hence your comments about it being bright and the reason you did not volunteer the models you used for your mixing session. The PMC AML1 plays in different league with the Genelec S30D, as both cost in excess of USD5K and are widely praised, comparing the Genelec 1029A/1030A to the PMC AML1 is like comparing a Kef Q1 to a B&W 805S and saying the B&W is better, of course it will be. Secondly, when you mention fatiguing sound of the 8000 series, it suggests that you have not heard them, these speakers have been out for less than 8 months, when did you get to listen to the 4 models in the series or better still use them in your mixing session?

  10. #85
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    ok,to be fair, I'll have to think back to the model. I do know that I've used the 1029A with a sub in my edit room (and in a few others), and I'll have to think of the pair that I used to mix with in another facility. This was about two years ago and the latter pair were definitely higher up in the range (I think they were around US$4-5K) they actually sounded ok.

    I'm sure the newer range is an improvement. I just heard them last week at the NAMM show which is not an optimal listening environment by any means, but the Adams that I heard next door were also subject to the same setting and I preferred their sound. In all honesty I did give the Adams more of my time because I had heard about them, but never heard them for myself. I sort of wrote-off the Genelecs because I wasn't really expecting to like them anyway so I could have a). spent more time with them, and b). listened with some material that I was more familiar with.

    When I get some time, I'll give the newer line a closer listen, I'll also fish around and see if there is a step response graph on them too. If there's one measurement that I like to pull out of my hat, it's that one.

  11. #86
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by astravitz
    Yes, looking back at my posting my statement was very bold regarding the Triangle Celius or Antal speakers. However, the thread here is for the Best Speaker for around $2,000- Well according to Stereophile and many other industry experts the Celius is the only full range class A speaker for around $2,000. Although, I recall reading an article in a recent audio publication (I beleive it was Stereophile), that Triangle has now redesigned it's speakers slightly and upgraded some of the components (therefore the price will also be increasing). However, I'm sure some dealers are still selling the Celius 202's.

    My opinion was based on Attending the Home Theatre show at the New York Hilton for two years in a row. I listened to speakers ranging from a few hundred dollars to towers of speakers for a few thousand dollars. In the end the room I ended up comming back to along with many others was the Triangle Rooms. How could such a reasonably priced speaker produce such perfect sound. The answer lies in the engineering and listening test.

    Triangle started out as a supplier of high end audio components and then started producing its own products. Most Speaker manufactures do not produce thier own components from inception. Bottom line is that in the price range of this thread, the Triangle speaker is the only Class A Full Range Speaker. Also, yes my ear and preference is generally towards classical music, jazz and clearly defined midrange. All of which the Triangle natural paper woofers do an exceptional job at. I agree with thier philosophy of using natural materials to produce a more natural sound. At my office at work I listen to a little Tivoli Audio radio and couldn't be happier.

    Yes, in the end the individual must love what they purchase, especially at a $2,000 price tag. I would be curious what MusicLG thinks of the Triangles versus the others if he has the opportunity to audition them.
    I would not be trusting solely in Stereophile first of all - a lot of what they recommend is IMO pretty lousy - Stereophile does not even listen to a significant portion of quality gear - so being a class a OR a class B doesn't say much unitl you actually know what they've auditioned. They were recommending integrated amplifiers under 2k for 20+ years and NEVER heard the longest running amplifier in history - the Sugden a21a. They finally hear the thing - don't even give it a full report - I pressed the reviewer and he said it's the best sounding sub 2k integrated. But all those years they were giving class B recommendations to Arcam and the like (which I bought). The Sugden A21a kills it and the new one Stereophile is likely recommending. I bet Sugden isn;t even on their listing hmm. They will have an excuse that there are not enough dealers blah blah blah. But then it's not about the best it's about the best that is widely available and I don;t have a problem with that if they would say it.

    And the Brits have their take on the Celius 202 as well - they often listen in blind listening panels as well http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=2190

  12. #87
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    Thanks Buzz Roll, fair enough, I was not expecting much of the Genelecs 8000 series myself, I went to listen to the Blue Sky and the Wharfedales, and neither was good sounding, so out of curiosity I fired up the Genelecs 8030 since I needed a small active monitor and I was mightily impressed and that for only GBP600, I have since listened to the whole series extensively and for the price I am very impressed, the 8040 is voiced differently from the 8030 and 8050. I noticed that you mentioned the step response measurement, I have not seen the step response, but I think it will be very similar to that of the Argon Helium 2 (another finish domestic speaker manufacturer), the rise of the woofer response coincides with rise of the tweeter because of the recessed tweeter, however it is unlikely to be disturbed by the helium's box resonances since the aluminium cast shell is fairly inert.

  13. #88
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    Here we are discussing a line of speakers with comprehensive published measurements and specs against products such as the GMA, Audio Note and PMC that have no published measurements anywhere, none of them publish any detailed measurements on their sites or in their promotional brochures. If all these companies are so proud of their products accuracy as you guys suggest, why no published measurements or full specifications of their speakers. Neither PMC, GMA nor Audio Note provide any distortion, frequency response, dispersion specifications or measurements, so how did we arrive at comments critiquing the Genelec's published distortion, frequency response (both inferences were wrong by the way) and accuracy, on what basis, against which products.

    Buzz Roll, the PMC AML1 costs USD5.2K, yet you referred to the Genelec at USD3.5K as overpriced, reading your old posts I think you know very little about both products. Now RGA you say that the PMC goes deeper, the AML1 (PMC's top nearfield monitor) is rated down to 33Hz with no dB deviation and no indication as to whether it is a freefield measurement or not, so how did you come to conclude that it goes deeper than the Genelec 8050?

    I am all for critiqueing products, but please do so intelligently and credibly with the facts to back up your assertions.
    Well that didn't stop you from raving all about the ELACs - I thought Ribbons were the best thing since sliced bread - ohh but it's been 3 months so now it's Genelec - lets wait to see what is best in May. Audiofile awarded the AN E 5 stars and produced measurementt and a graph that I have made in Excel so that one can actually see what is going on...and even then looking at the graph alone indicates some things not everything. Peter isn't going to use a set of measurements he doesn;t believe is wholly valid or descriptive in the first place. But the E measures +/-3db from 27hz to 20khz and is better than that 30 degrees off axis. The plus 3db was noted in Hi-fi choice in the vocal band and above the vocal band is I agree with Paul Messnger about as good as loudspeakers get" And the distortion measurements are stated by hi-fi choice.

    PMC has been measured - look for them.

    I am not wrong at all about the genelec - it has the measured response on the site. That is a big reason NOT to post measurements for your speakers IMO because you get people who will see the dips and valleys and or in this case spikes and won't actually give them a chance in an audition. (You imply they're better than everyhting else for the money - I see no reason to believe you since most of the speakers you like are IMO atrocious but you are just a review follower - if it gets good reviews and they company has a high falootin techno babble TAH loves it until next week when a new technobabble speaker comes out and now that's the greatest and ELAC is never mentioned again -- The brightness and long throw woofer must have finally annoyed you eh?)

    The Reference 3a MM De Capo is a nice sounding speaker --- PATD has ruled out even listening based off the graph - and yet in a real actual room they sound very engaging. Which is not to say everyone is going to love them - but in the real world they sound very good.

    There is more to a speaker than what Harman International claims to be a good speaker.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I would not be trusting solely in Stereophile first of all - a lot of what they recommend is IMO pretty lousy - Stereophile does not even listen to a significant portion of quality gear - so being a class a OR a class B doesn't say much unitl you actually know what they've auditioned. They were recommending integrated amplifiers under 2k for 20+ years and NEVER heard the longest running amplifier in history - the Sugden a21a. They finally hear the thing - don't even give it a full report - I pressed the reviewer and he said it's the best sounding sub 2k integrated. But all those years they were giving class B recommendations to Arcam and the like (which I bought). The Sugden A21a kills it and the new one Stereophile is likely recommending. I bet Sugden isn;t even on their listing hmm. They will have an excuse that there are not enough dealers blah blah blah. But then it's not about the best it's about the best that is widely available and I don;t have a problem with that if they would say it.

    And the Brits have their take on the Celius 202 as well - they often listen in blind listening panels as well http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=2190
    I can see your point as far as Stereophile not reviewing every decent product out there. It does seem that manufactures that purchase advertising space tend to get reviewed more frequently, however; I'm not sure of the British HIFi source being any better.

    I looked at the HiFi Choice Site and don't give much credence to a British reveiw of French Speakers. Especially one that gave the Monitor Audio S1's a perfect 5 out of 5. IMHO every monitor audio speaker sounds like someone clashing cymbils together. They also rated the B & W 303 & 309's a perfect score. Hummm, I'll take the Triangle's over any Monitor Audio speaker.

  15. #90
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    Hey, astravitz...thanks. I'll certainly put Triangles on the audition list and let you know what I think. RGA...AN, too.
    MusicLG

  16. #91
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    My choices

    For around $1400 you can get a set of Vandersteen 2Ce's. If you can i would audition them. I recently upgraded to ESL's Martin Logan's..

    Both of these speaker choices set up well with my system, but it is all in your own ear.

    Audition...audition. audition.
    ARC VT100 MKIII , ARC LS-15 , Anthem PRE1P Phono Stage
    Acoustics Signature TT , Adcom GCD-750 CD
    Tascam 130 Cassette Deck ,Transparent Audio Plus Speaker Cable , Transparent Audio Plus Balanced interconnects
    Martin Logan Ascents , HG 10 SX Velodyne Sub
    Pioneer TX-9100 Tuner

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by astravitz
    I can see your point as far as Stereophile not reviewing every decent product out there. It does seem that manufactures that purchase advertising space tend to get reviewed more frequently, however; I'm not sure of the British HIFi source being any better.

    I looked at the HiFi Choice Site and don't give much credence to a British reveiw of French Speakers. Especially one that gave the Monitor Audio S1's a perfect 5 out of 5. IMHO every monitor audio speaker sounds like someone clashing cymbils together. They also rated the B & W 303 & 309's a perfect score. Hummm, I'll take the Triangle's over any Monitor Audio speaker.
    Yes they are not saying that the 303 is better than the Triangle - they are reviewing speakers at respective price points. The 302 was IMO the best speaker for the money and for the money it deserved 5 stars.

    They then review speakers in the 1-2k range and review it. I don't agree with them all the time either - but they review Audio Note and AN doesn;t advertise at all and never has. Their dealers in the US got together and chipped in some money to put ONE advert in a magazine - but AN never has - they produce no literature no brochures. None of that is necessary - what is necessary is to listen to them against the other guys' speaker in the same room.

    I have been in this game listening for years and years - I know which I think has it right - and it is now up to the rest to show me they compete.

    The biggest issue not addressed in the industry is system synergy - AN products are idealaly designed for each other - and while they get good reviews when separated ---to me when it's together it's something else - very few dealers out there can afford to carry Audio Note and even fewer of those have the bucks to carry enough of the products to show people what can be attained. Soundhounds because of their size has been able to demonstrate a wide wide selection of Audio Note products to demonstrate what going from one level of a speaker amp or cd player to another level can do. They can also blow the SET myth to the four winds - and even with tough to drive speakers have impressed reviewers. Soundhounds has managed to make Audio Note the biggest selling product line they carry on the back of zero hard sell, zero advertising - just turnin the music on and letting the system take care of the rest. http://www.soundhounds.com/

    At the end of the day I simply would not rely on the reviews - I bought Audio Note with zero reviews - if I need a review to buy a speaker chances are the speaker didn't sell me on the way they sounded. AN is interested in selling to people who listen to music - not to people who buy from a magazine. My dealer also pointed out that it's good to have people who have been through several SYSTEMS before they get to Audio Note.

    This guy has been down the Audio Game far longer than me and bought all those Stereophile magazines et al and trusted in the business (and it is a business) of the review magazines - it took him a while but he finally figured it out - and so have I --- i used to buy tons of magazines and trust tin them - no longer.

    It's quite a well written review - better than most any one you'll find in a review publication http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?...45133&review=1

  18. #93
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    Thumbs down Well..

    RGA

    Without a doubt, in every discussion, no matter how unreasonable your opinion, you always have to have the last word, I looked for measurements of the PMC AML1 and I only found only one on the audio ideas guide, you can have a look at it yourself, all it does is make you look even more foolish as it shows that the bass of the AML1 starts rolling off at 60Hz.

    Audio Note speakers do not have any published measurements accessible via the web, they have measurement commentary, but they are not the same and a very poor substitute. As for the ELACs 310iJET, they have the on-axis anechoic measurements as well as in-room response for simple rooms on their site. The comparison against the Audio Note K/D was done in my home and I still maintain that that the K/D is a very average speaker, it suffers from severe box resonances that have adverse effects on its lower midrange and bass performance. In addition to that it has a curtailed top end. Thankfully, both issues have been have concurred by other posters on the speaker asylum recently.

    I do not have fanatical attachment to any speaker and I only recommend speakers based on user requirements, hence I do not recommend the same speaker willy-nilly, the ELACs are European speakers and not readily available in North America. When recommending the Genelec, I did not attach any review whatsoever, something you do very frequently, posting links to soundhounds or any positive commentary about Audio Note products at every opportunity.

    The Genelec 8000 series is a new set of products and IMHO offer certain performance advantages at their price point, their top-to-bottom coherence, tonal integrity and great midrange presence, it is fair to say that the 8050 especially has an excellent woofer which makes for good midrange clarity and as well as wonderfully articulate bass. For the treble shy such as yourself, it has treble tilt switches to tune the treble to taste, bass tilt switches to adjust bass to fit room characteristics, as well as adjustable input sensitivity to match gain to chosen preamplifier, it is active, so the risk of speaker/amplifier mismatch is out of the equation. To date, I have yet see a formal review of the Genelec 8050, if there is one, I will be interested in seeing it.

    In the end your post smells of sour grapes, hypocrisy and oneupmanship. You are constantly vacillating, on the one hand, using measurements of unfavoured speakers as a weapon to proclaim the superiority of your favoured speakers, but on the other hand, defending the lack of published measurements of the selfsame favoured speakers. It is hypocritical and childish to recommend listening to speakers without regard to reviews, specs or measurements, yet take every opportunity to use those items as basis ot criticise speakers you have not heard.

  19. #94
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    Not really sure why you bring up the AML 1 - I have never heard it - you must be mistaking me with another poster.

    The frequency response of the Genelecs is posted on their website and even with the treble tilts bass tilts it's still a spiked treble. Diverting attention away from that and trying to bring up other speakers is curious to me - I am not in love with PMC - I respect the fact though that people like this sort of sound - and when I get the sense that someone likes this sort of sound I recommend PMC. People like added zing to their treble I have no problem if you like treble zing but please don't try and state your usual "what I like is neutral and accurate" and anyone who likes a speaker with a similar deviation but a dip likes a coloured innacurate mess."

    PMC/Bryston is just about the antithesis of what Audio Note is all about. The AN K is used in recording studios - your talk on Colouration is parroting a reviewer who was using a SS amp (strike one) in a room not conducive to audio note (strike 2) and not demonstrated in the measurements (strike 3) and even with that they bought the speakers. NO ONE I know of agrees with you on the K speakers. You have said the speaker sounds worse than the 705 - No one I know of that has done side by side comparisons like I HAVE would agree - it's not close - box colouration is too funny the 705 has a clear thump when it's pushed that the K did not exhibit and on Ravel's Bolero the K presents massive scale that I've heard from no similaraly priced standmounts - you calin they lose it - that's funny = wonder what Bob Neil would say. He is a pro reviewer and liked the AN's so muc he decided to pick them up as a product line to sell - which is now very unfortunate because he won;t be able to review anymore AN products as now he'd be in a conflict of interest.

    You're correct there is not use in arguing - I don;t like getting into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent - but worse - I find you have terrible taste in music reproduction.

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    You're correct there is not use in arguing - I don;t like getting into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent - but worse - I find you have terrible taste in music reproduction.
    Sour grapes , get a life.

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    The AN K is used in recording studios - your talk on Colouration is parroting a reviewer who was using a SS amp (strike one) in a room not conducive to audio note (strike 2) and not demonstrated in the measurements (strike 3) and even with that they bought the speakers. NO ONE I know of agrees with you on the K speakers. pponent - but worse - I find you have terrible taste in music reproduction.
    And what reviewer will that be, mind posting the link? And pray tell, name some of the recording studios that use the AN K? Do they use it as a nearfield monitor?

  22. #97
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    Hi-fi choice.

    Ahh AN doesn't advertise their studio users...why will you love them if you find out?

    Bob Neil is a reviewer for Positive Feedback

    where is the link for the ELAC Their lifestyle speakers - gotta love their name and no information as to the +/- figure of their frequency response doesn;t help.

  23. #98
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    Yeah lots of people don't like the K eh? http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/spe...es/182546.html

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Hi-fi choice.
    You are a bit nervous eh , is that not the same Hi-fi choice you quote to bolster your recommendations?

    Ahh AN doesn't advertise their studio users...why will you love them if you find out?.
    Another coput , I wonder why AN is so reticent.

    where is the link for the ELAC Their lifestyle speakers - gotta love their name and no information as to the +/- figure of their frequency response doesn;t help.
    Go to room acoustics, the freefield measurements are right there.

  25. #100
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    Scrambling around

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Yeah lots of people don't like the K eh? http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/spe...es/182546.html
    Scrambling around to defend your favoured speaker line uh..

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