B & W, are they as good as they are cracked up to be?

[ryanpreusser]

i was wondering if b & w is what they are hyped up to be....do they have good sound? are they any better brands?

[topspeed]

i was wondering if b & w is what they are hyped up to be....do they have good sound? are they any better brands?

It depends on how you define value.

Is an Aston Martin THAT good? Is it worth the money?
Certainly, there are other cars that are faster, corner better, brake harder, are more reliable, and look better (well OK, none look better) for less money.

Is a Patek Philippe THAT good? Is it worth the money?
A Casio tells time just as accurately, right?

B&W's, for better or worse, have attained the status of an aspirational brand. The name is well known and well respected, an image reflected in their market leading resale values. Because speakers are the most subjective of all components in the audio chain, they can legitimately lay claim to producing some of the finest sounding speakers at their relative price points (you can always find a fan, just as you can a hater). Are there "better" speakers? I dunno, you tell me. The real question is do you think they are worth it?

It's your money, your taste, your room, your front end, and ultimately, your decision. Go out and listen and come to your own conclusion.

[ryanpreusser]

i have another question kinda off topic.....do you think that a vintage yamaha intigrated amp will sound good.....i know its all in what i think but generally people kinda have the same taste....whay do u think about vintage yamaha integrated amps. im looking for one with about 75 wpc have any sugestions?

[paul_pci]

I agree with Topspeed, but let me come at this question in another direction: Is Monster Cable all that its hyped up to be? No. Is Bose all that its hyped up to be? No. Is B&W all that it's hyped up to be? Yes. There are companies and products out there that don't come close to being what they are hyped to be and B&W is not one of them. Does that mean you'll be happy with a pair of speakers or even five? Not necessarily. But, you won't feel ripped off.

[drseid]

I agree with Topspeed, but let me come at this question in another direction: Is Monster Cable all that its hyped up to be? No. Is Bose all that its hyped up to be? No. Is B&W all that it's hyped up to be? Yes. There are companies and products out there that don't come close to being what they are hyped to be and B&W is not one of them. Does that mean you'll be happy with a pair of speakers or even five? Not necessarily. But, you won't feel ripped off.

Forgive me Paul for partially disagreeing here...

With respect to B&W being all that it is hyped to be?... I disagree *somewhat*... It isn't that I feel B&W is anywhere *near* the over-hyped speakers Bose are (and I agree they sound disappointing, to be sure)... But I would argue that there could be an argument made that B&W gets more hype than it deserves (along with many other brands, for that matter).

As for feeling "ripped off" if B&W were the choice...? I don't know if I would go as far as to say the answer was "no" to everyone. It depends on the listener's preferences, and experience with other brands...

In my case (assuming it is the Nautilus Series and Diamond Series that I have heard extensively), I *certainly* would feel disappointed (from a value/sound for the money standpoint in this case). Many, many others would feel the exact opposite. It just depends on who you ask.

As Topspeed correctly mentions in his post... The only opinion that really matters is the opinion of the listener in question.

---Dave

[topspeed]

i have another question kinda off topic.....do you think that a vintage yamaha intigrated amp will sound good.....i know its all in what i think but generally people kinda have the same taste....whay do u think about vintage yamaha integrated amps. im looking for one with about 75 wpc have any sugestions?

Vintage stuff can be terrific. In fact, I use a Marantz 2230 from the '70's to drive my VR1's with exceptional results. Many would argue that some of the older stuff from Pioneer, Fisher, Sansui, and of course Marantz, are actually better than their modern day interpretations. I'm not that familiar with older Yammies, but considering how capable their current equipment is, it's a safe bet that it's pretty good.

When I first inherited the Marantz from my dad, I asked our friend who's an EE whether or not it was any good before he did the tune-up on it. I think he summarized vintage equipment best in his answer: "It's still running after all these years and you want to know if it's any good? What do you think?!?"

In this day of disposable receivers, truer words were never said.

[Florian]

Forgive me Paul for partially disagreeing here...

With respect to B&W being all that it is hyped to be?... I disagree *somewhat*... It isn't that I feel B&W is anywhere *near* the over-hyped speakers Bose are (and I agree they sound disappointing, to be sure)... But I would argue that there could be an argument made that B&W gets more hype than it deserves (along with many other brands, for that matter).

As for feeling "ripped off" if B&W were the choice...? I don't know if I would go as far as to say the answer was "no" to everyone. It depends on the listener's preferences, and experience with other brands...


---Dave

I agree, they are good but definetly overhyped.

[RGA]

It's completely irrelevant - if you liked what you heard and you heard a good amount of other stuff then they offer good build construction, a good name to impress your friends, generally good sound (certainly some I don't like but others I do and ultimately I ain't buying so that's why this is in brackets).

I think with B&W you are buying a package rather than just sonics for your money. You are paying for the marketing engine and the appearance and name brand recognition. And this is not a negative thing so long as you know what you're getting. I recommend B&W as a good and safe company to start your journey into a generlaly better class of speaker over the stuff one finds at Futureshop. Most B&W I know tend to eventually leave the brand when they get more listening experience...otoh some move up to the N801.

Do they live up to the hype? To me they do not. But to someone who loves the sound -- then sure to them they very well may.

[Woochifer]

"Better" or "good sound" depends on your preferences. In general, B&W is a safe brand to go with. The company has legitimate high end credentials and aspirations, and a history of producing well regarded and competitive products. Their prices are typically on the high side for the different markets that they compete in, but still provide reasonable value for the performance that they deliver.

If you're looking for reasonably accurate speakers that will work with a variety of music sources and not have a lot of extremes in the tonal characteristics, then B&W should be included in the discussion. That said, some people have criticized B&W in the past for a somewhat bland sound, and now people are harping about their newer models sounding overly "bright" and have compromised performance for more style on some lines. Generally, you need to do your homework, and do some listening to figure out your preferences before you start relying on generalized opinions as to whether one speaker line is better than another. Depending on what you like, you might end up preferring a different speaker company's offerings, which might cost less than the equivalent B&W model.

As far as using with a vintage Yamaha receiver, that amp should provide sufficient power for most of the B&W lineup, except maybe the Nautilus models, which are a bit more demanding. Yamahas have a reputation for sounding bright, and while I think that's an erroneous reputation-driven label with their newer HT receivers, it definitely applies with their older two-channel systems. I generally think that vintage amps tend to sound different from one another because the different companies have slight variations in the "zero states" for their preamp sections. Even with the tone controls and loudness settings set at zero, the sound might not necessarily be totally flat.

With that in mind, a vintage Yamaha amp might not match too well with B&W's 700 series, but might work with the 600 or 300 series. And that assessment needs to account for the type of sound that you prefer. If you like a little extra in the highs, then a brighter sounding combination might work for you. Again, do your listenings and figure it out for yourself.

[csukasem]

i was wondering if b & w is what they are hyped up to be....do they have good sound? are they any better brands?

There are so many good speakers and better. This is fact of life. I think you need to spend sometime to gain more mileages to find yourself and you tastes. I am using B&W 805s and HTM 2 and very happy with them. Might they be replaced ? Yes, can be.

I would strongly suggest that you go audition a lot lof alternatives and settle down. What I found out in AV hobby is that the more experienced you are the more stable and you tend to stay with your system longer until one day it comes the new information.

Anyway, B&W has many models and some might be bad(for someones) and some good but my personal thought is that B&W's total scores is really above average.

Good luck with your search.

[abstracta]

That said, some people have criticized B&W in the past for a somewhat bland sound, and now people are harping about their newer models sounding overly "bright"

I think the 'bland' accusation comes from B&W designs being overly clinical on mid/lower bass response. With all due respect to B&W fans, the B&W line is among the 'dryest' in terms of bass extension I've heard next to perhaps planars.

What B&W is not given enough credit for is, IMHO, the 'open' soundstage that's a result of their tweeter design and exellent midrange-tweeter integration. While most competitors are trying to design better boxes, it seems like B&W has kind of thrown in the towel and taken a tangent.

[oddeoowphil38]

i was wondering if b & w is what they are hyped up to be....do they have good sound? are they any better brands?

Ryan I have listened extensively to the B&W602s3's and IMHO they are an excellent speaker in the $600 per pair price range. Got to do an A/B comparison between the 602's and the Paradigm Mini Monitors and the Paradigm Studio 20's as well as the Polk Audio Rti 4's/Rti 6's.
Of these, the Studio 20's were no doubt the best period. However, the B&W 602s3's were not far behind. The 20's had much better low end extension, imaged better, and were a more open and airy. The B&W's were much more lush sounding and laid back. The mini's sounded a bit boxy and blanketed in the upper registers. The Polk Rti6's were impressive but could be a bit on the bright side at times to the point of sounding kinda harsh. The Rti4's were very smiliar to the Rti6's. So, for the money the B&W 602s3 is top notch and remain one of my favs. The studio 20's win hands down but are $800 a pair. The final answer is what do YOU prefer---only you can decide that for yourself. Happy hunting.
Phil

[newbsterv2]

In my opinion B&W makes nice speakers and use sound engineering principles to design their speakers. They also have very nice finishes and can look very attractive in most living quarters. B&W has been known to have a slightly pronounced midrange to give that "british" sound but their newest revision of speakers really seem to be the most neutral I've heard. I'd say compared with Paradigm, Axiom, and PSB, The B&W's are better designed and sounding speakers even if they are priced higher than the brands previously noted.

i was wondering if b & w is what they are hyped up to be....do they have good sound? are they any better brands?

[snickelfritz]

B&W is known for their advanced driver technology, expert speaker engineering and long association with the professional recording industry.
IMO they deserve their status.

[Florian]

In my opinion nothing changed in the last 20 years. The Infinity IRS-V, Genesis 1.1, Apogee's and Dunlavy SC1 are the still the best speakers in the world and they dont use no Kevlar midrange or some papercoated drivers with some nautilus tweeter. To me its all a gimmick since they need to sell their speakers. Everytime i read something about Axiom, Paradigm, Dynaudio, B&W and about some new box and how dry the bass with the crispy midrange is, i just shake my head and laugh because the people fall for it everytime. Just look for a old Infinity Sigma, Epsilon, Dunlavy speakers, or the old B&W Matrix 800 etc... and get it over with. And if you have money to blow and the big room then look for giant planars and experiecne what "characterless" really means.

Is B&W good compared to Paradigm, Axiom, Infinity, Dynaudio etc... ?!? Of course they are, but this new driver and kevlar mumbojumbo is ridiculous.

-Flo

[Peter Duminy]

Quote: "Is B&W good compared to Paradigm, Axiom, Infinity, Dynaudio etc... ?!? Of course they are, but this new driver and kevlar mumbojumbo is ridiculous".


I don't usually disagree with your posts that much - but this time I do.

I have spent many of my years working for B&W in Worthing in their R&D Dept, and can assure you that at no time did we find Kevlar ever to be "mumbojumbo". It has taken many years to perfect the biasing of the fibers, and finding the best combinations of resins to use. It has proved itself now as a very worthy contender for a high quality driver material. Also many other Companies are also using variations of Kevlar such as Eaton Ltd to name just one. I hope this clears up many of the misconceptions I have read from you.

[oddeoowphil38]

Peter I personally believe it all boils down to the old addage "to each his own" so to speak. That is, we all have our own IDEAS as to how a speaker is suppose to sound and like it or not our perceptions(biases) are always with us no matter what. In other words, speaker preference is by far a very subjective thing. Thank God himself for that. If it weren't so we all would have the same exact speakers and listen to the same exact material. I say the heck with that!!! Personally, I prefer a stand mounted speaker that is very open and airy while maintaining superb articulation. Others prefer a more forward sounding speaker whereas others prefer the more laid back approach. Who is to say that one is right or that one approach is superior to the other???? Is there really only one way to define the "ideal" speaker???? The truth is we all have certain things we look for and prefer whether it be buying loudspeakers or buying a car AND thus it is that which defines us as individuals--each having his own likes and dislikes. IMHO, B&W makes excellent speakers and do so on various levels of refinement. I said it before and I will say it again the B&W 602s3 is one of the, if not the best, speakers in the $600 US price range period. Have a great evening.
Phil

[ryanpreusser]

thank you all for your help.....i didnt get b&w's instead i got a pair of NHT 1.5's. killer but lack bass, bigtime. guess ill have to get a subwoofer

[paul_pci]

thank you all for your help.....i didnt get b&w's instead i got a pair of NHT 1.5's. killer but lack bass, bigtime. guess ill have to get a subwoofer

Cool; hope you enjoy. Now we need to start a new thread: Are SVS subwoofers overhyped?

[ryanpreusser]

wats SVS??

[Florian]

Quote: "Is B&W good compared to Paradigm, Axiom, Infinity, Dynaudio etc... ?!? Of course they are, but this new driver and kevlar mumbojumbo is ridiculous".


I don't usually disagree with your posts that much - but this time I do.

I have spent many of my years working for B&W in Worthing in their R&D Dept, and can assure you that at no time did we find Kevlar ever to be "mumbojumbo". It has taken many years to perfect the biasing of the fibers, and finding the best combinations of resins to use. It has proved itself now as a very worthy contender for a high quality driver material. Also many other Companies are also using variations of Kevlar such as Eaton Ltd to name just one. I hope this clears up many of the misconceptions I have read from you.

I am not saying its a bad material, i am saying that its overhyped. I was trying to make a point. There is not much new to build, design anymore. We know what air volume we need, how to absorb resonant frequencys etc... but we need to make NEW speakers that are even more neutral, faster, crsiper blah blah blah and the use of a Kevlar midrange, Diamond tweeter etc.. is in my book a gimmick name that is picked because it reflects high class.

What slogan is more catchy?

Our paper drivers are the neutralest on the planet!

OR

Our krevlar midrange is the neutralest on the planet.

We all know what KEVLAR is and what a DIAMOND is and those materials and names are picked on purpose.

-Flo

[Peter Duminy]

There will be another name that will be used a lot more too, and that is Rohacell for the woofer cones made under license from Rohm GmbH. Excellent damping and strenghth characteristics.



Of course B&W use the words Kevlar and Diamond names in their products, as they use these materials during manufacture.

[kexodusc]

There will be another name that will be used a lot more too, and that is Rohacell for the woofer cones made under license from Rohm GmbH. Excellent damping and strenghth characteristics.



Of course B&W use the words Kevlar and Diamond names in their products, as they use these materials during manufacture.

I think Florian has a point here. I certainly won't blame B&W for doing this, maybe just their marketing department. Does anyone here really think the average consumer knows the benefits of Kevlar over wooven wool, paper, polypropylene, aluminum, magnesium, etc ?
Not a chance.
And the few that do know aren't going to buy into the suggestion that Kevlar woofers are superior to woofers of different material.

At the same time, I have yet to see one single speaker company not "hype" their own products in one fashion or another. It's unfair and pointless to look at advertising, no matter how exaggerated it may seem, as being deceptive or somehow wrong.

[snickelfritz]

The true benefit of Kevlar is in the FST midrange driver, in which the fibers are biased to produce a driver that varies it's effective radiating surface over frequency, and launches what is essentially a square wavefront. The driver literally pulsates rather than operating as a true piston.
The benefit is improved dispersion and breakup characteristics near the upper crossover frequency. A common problem with midrange drivers, which operate over a relatively wide and important frequency range.
The purported advantage of diamond tweeter diaphragms is the significantly higher resonance frequency; the driver is more linear within the audio range as a result.

IMO, the "hype" is mostly just interesting information for audiophiles, which B&W speakers have traditionally been intended for. Pure music lovers will just appreciate the transparent and natural sound reproduction.
The measurements of the latest $1000 603 indicate outstanding engineering; virtually flat response, very well controlled dispersion, no significant resonances, and very clean decay over the entire audio range.
These measurements would not be out of place attached to a $5000 speaker!

BTW, loudly touted frequency response and power handling specs are the most common form of misleading speaker marketing hype, similar to CPU "speed" in the computer market.
Both are aimed squarely at unsophisticated consumers, and usually have little to do with the acceptability or actual performance of the product.

Kevlar, on the other hand is fundamental to the performance characteristics of the Nautilus series, and is unique AFAIK to B&W.
One can hardly blame them for sharing the details of this innovative driver design with consumers.

[Florian]

Now there are a few things wrong with your "holy grail of B&W".

1. You have 3 or 4 different drivers with different mass, different material etc.. and all sound different at a given frequency. The B&W's or almost any other box out there will not sound neutral or transport a given note over the driver range in unison.

2. B&W's are not known for the perfection but are known for their advertising.

3. In a box you will always have compression, coloration etc...

B&W makes good speakers, but fast, neutral, characterless etc.. are definetly not what B&W stands for.

-Flo

And without trying to start a war but

"will just appreciate the transparent and natural sound reproduction."

if you think that the B&W's (800D, 800 Matrix, Nautilus PJ) life up to that...than you have heard nothing yet