B & W, are they as good as they are cracked up to be?

[Peter Duminy]

There will be another name that will be used a lot more too, and that is Rohacell for the woofer cones made under license from Rohm GmbH. Excellent damping and strenghth characteristics.



Of course B&W use the words Kevlar and Diamond names in their products, as they use these materials during manufacture.

[kexodusc]

There will be another name that will be used a lot more too, and that is Rohacell for the woofer cones made under license from Rohm GmbH. Excellent damping and strenghth characteristics.



Of course B&W use the words Kevlar and Diamond names in their products, as they use these materials during manufacture.

I think Florian has a point here. I certainly won't blame B&W for doing this, maybe just their marketing department. Does anyone here really think the average consumer knows the benefits of Kevlar over wooven wool, paper, polypropylene, aluminum, magnesium, etc ?
Not a chance.
And the few that do know aren't going to buy into the suggestion that Kevlar woofers are superior to woofers of different material.

At the same time, I have yet to see one single speaker company not "hype" their own products in one fashion or another. It's unfair and pointless to look at advertising, no matter how exaggerated it may seem, as being deceptive or somehow wrong.

[snickelfritz]

The true benefit of Kevlar is in the FST midrange driver, in which the fibers are biased to produce a driver that varies it's effective radiating surface over frequency, and launches what is essentially a square wavefront. The driver literally pulsates rather than operating as a true piston.
The benefit is improved dispersion and breakup characteristics near the upper crossover frequency. A common problem with midrange drivers, which operate over a relatively wide and important frequency range.
The purported advantage of diamond tweeter diaphragms is the significantly higher resonance frequency; the driver is more linear within the audio range as a result.

IMO, the "hype" is mostly just interesting information for audiophiles, which B&W speakers have traditionally been intended for. Pure music lovers will just appreciate the transparent and natural sound reproduction.
The measurements of the latest $1000 603 indicate outstanding engineering; virtually flat response, very well controlled dispersion, no significant resonances, and very clean decay over the entire audio range.
These measurements would not be out of place attached to a $5000 speaker!

BTW, loudly touted frequency response and power handling specs are the most common form of misleading speaker marketing hype, similar to CPU "speed" in the computer market.
Both are aimed squarely at unsophisticated consumers, and usually have little to do with the acceptability or actual performance of the product.

Kevlar, on the other hand is fundamental to the performance characteristics of the Nautilus series, and is unique AFAIK to B&W.
One can hardly blame them for sharing the details of this innovative driver design with consumers.

[Florian]

Now there are a few things wrong with your "holy grail of B&W".

1. You have 3 or 4 different drivers with different mass, different material etc.. and all sound different at a given frequency. The B&W's or almost any other box out there will not sound neutral or transport a given note over the driver range in unison.

2. B&W's are not known for the perfection but are known for their advertising.

3. In a box you will always have compression, coloration etc...

B&W makes good speakers, but fast, neutral, characterless etc.. are definetly not what B&W stands for.

-Flo

And without trying to start a war but

"will just appreciate the transparent and natural sound reproduction."

if you think that the B&W's (800D, 800 Matrix, Nautilus PJ) life up to that...than you have heard nothing yet

[RGA]

I have to agree with Kex -- no one can blame them I guess for the advertising hype -- but please let us recognize that that is ALL it is. I'm not overly surprised that many audiophiles consider them to be the Bose of the "audiophile" world. You generally pay a lot more to get less with B&W. They would not be the first to use their name to ride weaker products or products that are no better than compatitors for a lot less money -- See the Sony Corporation and Bose for models for businesses to copy. B&W is doing well grasshopper.

Kevlar or metal may not be a problem -- integrating the two in my view has been with an audible lack of cohesion. Still there are some I'd recommend -- but when yuo hear more speakers the B&W's tend to fall back behind the pack -- Comparing them to the big makers with a similar business model means little to me.

[kexodusc]

The true benefit of Kevlar is in the FST midrange driver, in which the fibers are biased to produce a driver that varies it's effective radiating surface over frequency, and launches what is essentially a square wavefront. The driver literally pulsates rather than operating as a true piston.
The benefit is improved dispersion and breakup characteristics near the upper crossover frequency. A common problem with midrange drivers, which operate over a relatively wide and important frequency range.
The purported advantage of diamond tweeter diaphragms is the significantly higher resonance frequency; the driver is more linear within the audio range as a result.

IMO, the "hype" is mostly just interesting information for audiophiles, which B&W speakers have traditionally been intended for. Pure music lovers will just appreciate the transparent and natural sound reproduction.
The measurements of the latest $1000 603 indicate outstanding engineering; virtually flat response, very well controlled dispersion, no significant resonances, and very clean decay over the entire audio range.
These measurements would not be out of place attached to a $5000 speaker!

BTW, loudly touted frequency response and power handling specs are the most common form of misleading speaker marketing hype, similar to CPU "speed" in the computer market.
Both are aimed squarely at unsophisticated consumers, and usually have little to do with the acceptability or actual performance of the product.

Kevlar, on the other hand is fundamental to the performance characteristics of the Nautilus series, and is unique AFAIK to B&W.
One can hardly blame them for sharing the details of this innovative driver design with consumers.

B&W was not the first or only to use Kevlar in speakers...Usher, Davis, Eton, Hi-Vi Research, and Scan-speak are just a few big names that manufacture Kevlar drivers...
They're never cheap, and some are quite highly praised.

[snickelfritz]

If we get back to the original topic; "are they as good as they are cracked up to be?"
The short answer is probably yes.

Yes, it's true that the recording industry has a long history with B&W.
Yes, it's true that Skywalker Ranch has a pair of N802s in their theater.
Yes, it's true that B&W develops their own drivers and has state of the art facilities in which to do it.
Yes, they're better than a pair of JBLs from Bestbuy.
Yes, B&W is a globally respected name for good reasons.

Not sure if someone has "cracked them up" to be something other than a highly respected World-class loudspeaker developer and manufacturer.
That, they certainly are.

BTW, I was not aware that other companies were manufacturing Fixed Suspension Transducers with Kevlar diaphragms.
B&W has the only FST driver I have ever seen anywhere. (the fact that it uses Kevlar is secondary)

[Florian]

If we get back to the original topic; "are they as good as they are cracked up to be?"
The short answer is probably yes.

Yes, it's true that the recording industry has a long history with B&W.
So does M&K, Apogee, Magnepan, Dynaudio and JBL
Yes, it's true that Skywalker Ranch has a pair of N802s in their theater.
They also use M&K THX speakers and Teufel Theater 10
Yes, it's true that B&W develops their own drivers and has state of the art facilities in which to do it.
So does Dynaudio, Dali, Magnepan, Infinity etc...
Yes, they're better than a pair of JBLs from Bestbuy.
True, but that aint hard ;-)
Yes, B&W is a globally respected name for good reasons.
They are good speakers, but they dont live up to the hype. And there are many speakers better.

Not sure if someone has "cracked them up" to be something other than a highly respected World-class loudspeaker developer and manufacturer.
That, they certainly are.

Noone is saying they are bad, but you make them sound like they are the holy grail. AND THAT, THEY CERTAINLY ARE NOT .

[snickelfritz]

Actually, you are inferring from my support of B&W that I see them as the "Holy Grail".
Their speakers are neither better nor worse than a dozen other companies that make high quality audiophile speakers.
I would certainly audition at least a dozen speakers in addition to the N800 if I had $16000 burning a hole in my pocket.

I won't dispute that there are literally dozens of speaker manufacturers that supply the recording industry, but B&W is ubiquitous in the recording industry and are legendary in the speaker industry, for whatever it's worth. It doesn't make them the Holy Grail though; just successful.
And it ain't advertising hyperbole that did it either.
LOL, if that were true, Bose would have an equal stature.

I happen to own a pair of B&Ws, but I certainly wouldn't mind owning Sonus Faber, Paradigm Signature, Vienna, JBL K2, Wilson, etc...
Are any of these speaker manufacturers "what they're cracked up to be?"
Who knows.
I'm sure somebody somewhere on crack still thinks Cerwin Vega "is the Holy Grail".
They RAWK!.