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  1. #1
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    Magnepan MMG with ICEPower amplifiers

    Hi everybody:

    This is my first post on this forum. I would appreciate any advice anyone can give me about using an ICEpower amplifier (EAR 202) with the Magnepan MMG speakers.

    My EAR 202 amplifier is rated to 290 W RMS into 4 ohms. I am currently using it with ten year old Dynaudio Audience 50 speakers.

    I play my music off my home PC using a Squeezebox 3 as a transport and a Benchmark DAC1 that also serves as a preamp.

    I also have a DIY sub assembled from a Parts Express design. It works well with my Dynaudio speakers. The lowpass frequency is set to 50 Hz.

    My listening tastes tend towards soft music and I am not particularly worried about heavy bass. Musicality and detail are more important.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    It'll work but I think it's a bit of overkill for the MMG's. IIRC, they tend to get a bit "congested" at higher volume levels. That amp would be great for 1.6's, though.

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    Thanks, Markw! I forgot to mention that I listen to music at low to medium volume levels - besides which I live in an apartment block in Singapore. I am unlikely to drive the MMGs at very high volume.

    Mahesh

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    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Maggies like lots of clean, high current power. That amp should be great, but I agree with Mark, MMG's do have their limits when played very loud. Music just becomes way more dynamic with Maggies as you go up in current and power although this is probably more of a function of the amp being a better amp with better dampening, headroom and being able to deliver the goods on demand.
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  5. #5
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    It'll work but I think it's a bit of overkill for the MMG's. IIRC, they tend to get a bit "congested" at higher volume levels. That amp would be great for 1.6's, though.
    This is right on. The MMGs just don't have the radiating area to produce dynamic bass -- and it doesn't matter the power you supply. I drove my MMGs with 360 wpc and it didn't help much, i.e. the speakers played loud but sounded compressed.

    The solution with MMGs isn't more amp power, it's using a sub to carry all the sound above a fairly high crossover point, say 80 Hz. Note that you need both a low-pass filter to feed the sub, and a high-pass filter feeding the MMGs to exclude the bass.

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    The local Magnepan distributor here has very kindly agreed to let me connect my ICE power amp and Benchmark DAC to a pair of 1.6 speakers in their showroom to get a sense of how the MMGs might sound. I'm intending to do that sometime this week. Since the MMGs are only sold over the Internet, they don't carry them. The MMGs seem to have characteristics similar to my Dynaudios - 4 ohms impedance and 87 dB sensitivity.

    Will provide some feedback on how the tests go. Thanks!

  7. #7
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krishna
    The MMGs seem to have characteristics similar to my Dynaudios - 4 ohms impedance and 87 dB sensitivity.
    The same can be said about the 1.6's, or the new 1.7's would assume..

    Having owned both, I can say,the 1.x's are, without a doubt, worth the price difference ...if you have the room to position them properly.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    they tend to get a bit "congested" at higher volume levels.
    I agree. MMG should not be driven hard.
    You can always try to integrate a sub to MMG, but I was frusted with the result to say the least. But it's not all bad news, I find MMG to have plenty of bass in my smallist listening room (14~18' x 16~22").

    From what I understand, MMGs show easy load on amplifers and the EAR202 should work just fine. But, 1.6QR may be a different story. The EAR202's minimum load impedance is rated at 3 ohm so I'm not sure if 1.XQR will be a good fit. But you can only try out the combination to find out.
    Last edited by jrhymeammo; 05-31-2010 at 09:33 AM.

  9. #9
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    Add:

    I have used so-called ICEamp on a pair of 1.6QR, and never liked to result.
    But as stated above, I do not have a very large room.
    Matching the size of speakers(especially a planar type) to the room size maybe more important than matching amps.

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    Thank you all for your comments. I went to the Magnepan dealer today and connected my ICEpower amp and Benchmark DAC to the 1.6 speakers. I had taken along a selection of music on a CD-R and played the tracks using a Naim CD player (used just as a transport). I spent over an hour listening to my music.

    The session was really interesting. Everything sounded much more musical and 'real' than it does through my Dynaudio Audience 50s. I was also able to hear low level detail on familiar tracks that has previously been indistinct. The centre image was solid across all the tracks.

    But I also discovered that on a few tracks (Indian film music from the mid nineties) all the instruments seemed bunched together at the centre. Other tracks that most of you may have heard ('Tears in heaven' by Eric Clapton and a track called 'Bali Run' by Fourplay) were brilliant. Also, Indian film tracks of more recent vintage sounded brilliant. I guess the point is that if a track is poorly engineered, you notice it immediately.

    At my preferred (moderate) listening levels, the ICEpower amp didn't have a problem driving the 1.6 speakers. I assume that it will be capable of driving the MMGs too. I'm not very fussy about bass and felt that the bass output of the 1.6 speakers was quite adequate. Incidentally, the speakers were on their stock stands, with the panels vertical and without any toe-in.

    I'm pretty much convinced that MMGs would be a good investment, given my limited budget and the fact that the 1.6 would be far too big in my living room. The only downside is the cost of shipping the MMGs halfway around the world - USD 350! This is quite steep, given that the speakers themselves cost only USD 600. C'est la vie!

    I've also been reading about various ways of getting the MMGs to sound even better, by changing the angle of tilt, raising them off the floor by six inches or so, upgrading the crossover and so on. At this point, I can't afford Mye stands or the Peter Gunn mods. Fortunately, a dear friend and classmate has been a hi-fi nut for as long as I can remember (we were at university together 40 years ago). He's promised to come over and help. Any suggestions in this area would be very welcome - thanks in advance.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by krishna
    Thank you all for your comments. I went to the Magnepan dealer today and connected my ICEpower amp and Benchmark DAC to the 1.6 speakers. I had taken along a selection of music on a CD-R and played the tracks using a Naim CD player (used just as a transport). I spent over an hour listening to my music.

    The session was really interesting. Everything sounded much more musical and 'real' than it does through my Dynaudio Audience 50s. I was also able to hear low level detail on familiar tracks that has previously been indistinct. The centre image was solid across all the tracks.

    But I also discovered that on a few tracks (Indian film music from the mid nineties) all the instruments seemed bunched together at the centre. Other tracks that most of you may have heard ('Tears in heaven' by Eric Clapton and a track called 'Bali Run' by Fourplay) were brilliant. Also, Indian film tracks of more recent vintage sounded brilliant. I guess the point is that if a track is poorly engineered, you notice it immediately.

    At my preferred (moderate) listening levels, the ICEpower amp didn't have a problem driving the 1.6 speakers. I assume that it will be capable of driving the MMGs too. I'm not very fussy about bass and felt that the bass output of the 1.6 speakers was quite adequate. Incidentally, the speakers were on their stock stands, with the panels vertical and without any toe-in.

    I'm pretty much convinced that MMGs would be a good investment, given my limited budget and the fact that the 1.6 would be far too big in my living room. The only downside is the cost of shipping the MMGs halfway around the world - USD 350! This is quite steep, given that the speakers themselves cost only USD 600. C'est la vie!

    I've also been reading about various ways of getting the MMGs to sound even better, by changing the angle of tilt, raising them off the floor by six inches or so, upgrading the crossover and so on. At this point, I can't afford Mye stands or the Peter Gunn mods. Fortunately, a dear friend and classmate has been a hi-fi nut for as long as I can remember (we were at university together 40 years ago). He's promised to come over and help. Any suggestions in this area would be very welcome - thanks in advance.

    One option is to see if your dealer can get you some MG12s...the model between the mmgs and the 1.6s. Perhaps that will end up cheaper than the mmgs direct.

    SImple things to do :get them vertical.

    Then start with the tweeter inside and slowly move them apart till you find there is no center image (after you break them in of course). Line up the tweeters and mark their position some how. This is the max distance the tweeters can be. Now if your room is small, then you can do this with the tweeters outboard...the thing alot of people miss is that it is the tweeter distance that is key not whether they are inside or outside.

    If you have short runs, say 8ft or shorter, try some 24g magnet wire as speaker cables. Super cheap and way better than most store bought cables. Dress them up in some techflex or pvc tubes.

    Another simple and cheap tweak, but very impactful is to "Razor" them as the recent post I did here explains. THis may be the best one of all.

    ALso you can try some rf chokes in series with the tweeter...J Miller 5502 or 5522 should do it and are very inexpensive.

    D

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    Yes, I did read your post about 'razoring' the MMGs. I will probably summon the courage to do it sometime, but not right away. Does anyone have drawings or sketches of DIY stands that can get the MMGs upright and also raise them 6-8 inches off the floor? I can probably use them as a starting point and check if someone here can fabricate them for me.

    A related question: should the stands be designed such that there is no gap between the bottom of the speaker panel and the stand itself, i.e. should the panel rest on some kind of rectangular wood piece? The reason I ask is because of your comments on the need to reduce vibrations.

  13. #13
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krishna
    Yes, I did read your post about 'razoring' the MMGs. I will probably summon the courage to do it sometime, but not right away. Does anyone have drawings or sketches of DIY stands that can get the MMGs upright and also raise them 6-8 inches off the floor? I can probably use them as a starting point and check if someone here can fabricate them for me.

    A related question: should the stands be designed such that there is no gap between the bottom of the speaker panel and the stand itself, i.e. should the panel rest on some kind of rectangular wood piece? The reason I ask is because of your comments on the need to reduce vibrations.
    Here is a picture of my former MMGs raised perpendicular to the floor about 8-9". I made these stands myself out of scrap 3/4" MDF. They are bolted directly in place of the stock metal "L" stands.


  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by krishna
    Yes, I did read your post about 'razoring' the MMGs. I will probably summon the courage to do it sometime, but not right away. Does anyone have drawings or sketches of DIY stands that can get the MMGs upright and also raise them 6-8 inches off the floor? I can probably use them as a starting point and check if someone here can fabricate them for me.

    A related question: should the stands be designed such that there is no gap between the bottom of the speaker panel and the stand itself, i.e. should the panel rest on some kind of rectangular wood piece? The reason I ask is because of your comments on the need to reduce vibrations.
    Hey K,

    Feanors stands are nice and easy. Here are a few more with the 1st one being the easiest because you should be able to buy the parts at a hardware store since they are pretty common:

    http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/M.../richardh.html
    http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/BrandonB/
    http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/RodH/

    The key is to get the MIDDLE of the panel to be at ear height.

    There will be some trade off as you raise them you may lose a bit of bass which you could get back if you had a stand that had a solid base around the speakers, kind of like the floor just raised...like if your stand had a cutting board the maggies sat on.

    You may not be bothered by this as the imaging and sound will be better in most cases.

    HTH.

  15. #15
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    I'll add this again. Any single ended Maggy will sound better listening to it from the rear. It's the ultimate cheap tweak. FREE!! If you don't like the results turn the speakers around and keep going. You get better mid range and treble dispersion and clarity when the sound doesn't have to go through a slotted panel with magnets on it.

    Try it, you guys!!! You've got nothing to loose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    I'll add this again. Any single ended Maggy will sound better listening to it from the rear. It's the ultimate cheap tweak. FREE!! If you don't like the results turn the speakers around and keep going. You get better mid range and treble dispersion and clarity when the sound doesn't have to go through a slotted panel with magnets on it.

    Try it, you guys!!! You've got nothing to loose.
    Hey Joe,

    Thanks for explaining things. I agree with you in that it is free and easy to do and worth the effort!

    But I think things are different these days. My mmgs for one came with the MYLAR on the front and I think all the current single ended ones do too...so you are really saying to leave them alone??

    FWIW I have listened both ways and it is a long long story and probably one that doesnt relate since I ditched a "normal" set up like 10 years ago. FOr the longest time though I had listened to the pole pieces and enjoyed that (and thought that was what you originally were saying). Originally that is how mags were designed not with the mylar in the front. HT changed them IMHO. Any how I use the ROOZE setup now and suppose I am listening to the mylar now.

    Do note that if you do turn the speaker around, you should swap your cables +, and - connections on BOTH speakers to adjust for the difference in polarity when listening to the back wave vs. the front wave. Or engage a polarity switch if your pre or cdp has one.

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    Thanks for all your suggestions! I will figure out a way to make replacement stands along the lines you have suggested. JoeE's tweak should be easy to check out too. By the way, do Magnepan give you a set of dimensioned drawings if you ask nicely, or do I just wait until the speakers get here and measure them myself?

    When people on this forum talk about 'dealing with the first reflection from the side wall' what exactly do they imply? Is this

    (A) a point on the side wall that's midway between the speaker's position and the listening position, i.e. where the incident and reflected waves travel the same distance, or

    (B) is it a point where these distances may be unequal?

    My living room is T-shaped, roughly 13 feet wide x 12 feet high x 30 feet long with a dining space opening out on one side around 10 feet from the front wall. I have placed my Audience 50s using the Cardas rule, and they're around 5.5 feet from the front wall.

    In this position, if A above is true, there is no first reflection from one of the side walls because there is no wall at all. I have a three-seater couch placed along the other side wall and I guess it would absorb the first reflection no matter whether A or B is true. But because the MMGs are taller than my current speakers, I may have to experiment with some additional absorbing material for them.

    Thanks for all your advice. I will be ordering the MMGs next week. I guess the fun starts when they arrive!

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    Oh I forgot to ask in my earlier post - what is the Rooze setup?

  19. #19
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    Dawnrazor:
    If the mylar is on the front Magnepan has already latched onto that tweak. As for changing the plu and minus speaker connections; that's a question of absolute phase. You might want to try reversing the connections anyway. If you and your system is sensitive to absolute phase one way will sound better. It's possible you may hear better sound with the connections reversed. This applies to both speakers. You want them to be in phase with each other.
    This means that connecting plus to plus from amp to speakers doesn't necessarily mean that you have preserved absolute phase. The number of stages in the entire amplification chain determine absolute phase. For instance some power amps have 3 stages, some 2 some have 4 or more. The number of stages in the preamp also count. Each stage reverses phase.
    Preserving absolute phase is a much discussed and not always agreed on tweak. As with this and other free tweaks your ears and your system should be the judge.

    krishna:
    To find the first reflection points.
    Sit in your listening position.
    Have someone move a mirror along the side walls.
    When you can see the speaker in the mirror you have found the first reflection point.
    Apply sound dampening at that place on the wall, from the floor to just slightly higher than the speaker and at least as wide as the speaker.

    This process also applies to the floor and ceiling. Usually there is a rug on the floor and significant others usually object to ceiling treatments.

    From the description of your room you may have some difficulty getting an even left right spread. You have probably noticed this with your current speakers. Dipolar radiators (Magneplanars) will probably exhibit less of this room effect because of the figure eight radiation pattern.
    The Cardas placement suggestions are a good place to start. However any dipolar speaker will need to be fine tuned for position. Let your ears be the judge.
    Last edited by JoeE SP9; 06-06-2010 at 06:17 PM.
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    Yes, my room is slightly 'difficult' because it isn't rectangular. But I get a decent sound stage with my Dynaudios. One advantage is that the ceiling has a stippled finish created using plaster of Paris, so it may well be acting as an effective diffuser.

    I'll try to use a mirror to locate the first reflection point on the left wall and then see if I can use some kind of wall hanging to reduce the reflection.

    The other thing I should mention is that my front wall isn't really a wall at all. I have sliding (glass!) French windows leading to a small enclosed verandah. I usually keep the French windows closed. But after reading one post on this forum that suggested that the front wall exactly midway between the speakers should be treated with sound absorbing or diffusing material, I decided just as an experiment to open them by about two feet. There is definitely a difference to the sound quality - the bass is better and the image seems better too. I must experiment some more...

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    Dawnrazor:
    If the mylar is on the front Magnepan has already latched onto that tweak. As for changing the plu and minus speaker connections; that's a question of absolute phase. You might want to try reversing the connections anyway. If you and your system is sensitive to absolute phase one way will sound better. It's possible you may hear better sound with the connections reversed. This applies to both speakers. You want them to be in phase with each other.
    This means that connecting plus to plus from amp to speakers doesn't necessarily mean that you have preserved absolute phase. The number of stages in the entire amplification chain determine absolute phase. For instance some power amps have 3 stages, some 2 some have 4 or more. The number of stages in the preamp also count. Each stage reverses phase.
    Preserving absolute phase is a much discussed and not always agreed on tweak. As with this and other free tweaks your ears and your system should be the judge.
    Sorry Joe, I wasnt clear. I wasnt actually saying to try absolute phase AS A TWEAK. Merely that if one was going to listen to the other side of the speaker TO RULE OUT Absolute Phase in the listening test, one should swap the speaker connections on both speakers. Otherwise any conclusion might be more a conclusion about absolute phase rather than listening to the mylar or not.

    And I am betting that if he gets them, Krishna's mmgs will be different from mine in that his will have the 1st/ 1st config for the crossover and not the 2nd/1st config of the first version of the mags. On the first version the tweet is out of phase with the bass panel and this makes it nearly impossible to hear absolute phase differences, but not so on the 2nd one.

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    When he gets them, Dawnrazor, not if! I'm speaking to Magnepan to sort out some shipping issues today...

    If there are so many permutations and combinations of the crossovers, how does anyone figure out what version he's got? Do they ship a set of schematics with the MMGs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by krishna
    When he gets them, Dawnrazor, not if! I'm speaking to Magnepan to sort out some shipping issues today...

    If there are so many permutations and combinations of the crossovers, how does anyone figure out what version he's got? Do they ship a set of schematics with the MMGs?

    Awesome!!!! You will enjoy them!

    There are only 2 versions of the mmgs crossover. They no longer make the 1st version, so it is pretty simple.

    Youll get the 1st order/ 1st order version:

    http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/M...0XO%20Diag.gif

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    OK, so I ordered and paid for the MMGs today. They are apparently built to order, so it will take around two weeks for them to be shipped. I'm sure they will be worth the wait. Watch this space. By the way, does anybody here have any experience of whether there were problems / damage in transit caused by international shipping of MMGs?

    Thanks for the schematic of the crossover Dawnrazor. I'll have tons of questions once the speakers actually get here. But what I want to do reasonably quickly is to get sturdier stands fabricated. Where can I get hold of mechanical drawings of the MMGs - any ideas?

  25. #25
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnrazor
    Sorry Joe, I wasnt clear. I wasnt actually saying to try absolute phase AS A TWEAK. Merely that if one was going to listen to the other side of the speaker TO RULE OUT Absolute Phase in the listening test, one should swap the speaker connections on both speakers. Otherwise any conclusion might be more a conclusion about absolute phase rather than listening to the mylar or not.

    And I am betting that if he gets them, Krishna's mmgs will be different from mine in that his will have the 1st/ 1st config for the crossover and not the 2nd/1st config of the first version of the mags. On the first version the tweet is out of phase with the bass panel and this makes it nearly impossible to hear absolute phase differences, but not so on the 2nd one.
    I agree about ruling out absolute phase when trying different sides of Maggys. However absolute phase is usually very difficult to hear while the difference between the sides on Maggys is very easy to hear.
    After the speakers are dialed in with some good associated gear then may be the time to listen for absolute phase. As I said already, it's very difficult to hear and most recordings especially heavily processed studio recordings will show little or no (usually none) audible difference.
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