Magnepan MMG with ICEPower amplifiers

[E-Stat]

Is there a CD that generates a broad range of frequencies to speed up the break-in process?... Any suggestions?

I would recommend Charles Hansen's IBE disk not only for initial break in, but for ongoing use as well.

IBE Test Disc

Some of his comments

rw

[krishna]

Hi everybody:

A quick note to let you know that my MMGs finally arrived yesterday. For now, I've set them up exactly where my Dynaudios were placed, about six feet from the front wall, using the Cardas formula. They accept banana plugs, so I'm using my old speaker cables.

Even out of the box, they sounded fantastic. I didn't read the (sketchy!) manual that came with them and assumed that serial number NNNN-1 was to be set up as the left speaker. So when I started to listen to them, I had the woofers on the inside and the tweeters on the outside. Eventually I tried the 'recommended' setup as well. I found that I preferred the 'wrong' setup because voices sounded marginally more natural that way.

One minor hassle is that the buckle that is used to change the angle of tilt of the speakers is not compatible with polished wooden flooring. But I'll have my stands made in a couple of weeks, so the problem is only temporary.

I will provide more feedback as I go along.

[Dawnrazor]

Hi everybody:

A quick note to let you know that my MMGs finally arrived yesterday. For now, I've set them up exactly where my Dynaudios were placed, about six feet from the front wall, using the Cardas formula. They accept banana plugs, so I'm using my old speaker cables.

Even out of the box, they sounded fantastic. I didn't read the (sketchy!) manual that came with them and assumed that serial number NNNN-1 was to be set up as the left speaker. So when I started to listen to them, I had the woofers on the inside and the tweeters on the outside. Eventually I tried the 'recommended' setup as well. I found that I preferred the 'wrong' setup because voices sounded marginally more natural that way.

One minor hassle is that the buckle that is used to change the angle of tilt of the speakers is not compatible with polished wooden flooring. But I'll have my stands made in a couple of weeks, so the problem is only temporary.

I will provide more feedback as I go along.

Awesome you got them so soon.

As I read your post, you just put them in the same spot as the dynaudios????

If so try the cardas formula for dipoles:
http://www.cardas.com/speaker_placement.php?type=dipole

Also there is really no right or wrong about the tweeters in or out. What it really comes down to most is the distance BETWEEN the tweeters. Most people never adjust for that, and mostly what happens when you swap them in or out, is you change the tweeter distances!

FWIW the Cardas setup is a good start, but I always thought it put the speakers far too close together and created a small soundstage. YMMV but if you have the space, try getting them further apart until there is a whole in the middle effect and then bring them closer till you get a strong center image. THis will maximize soundstage width. YOu might indeed like them closer together, but it is nice to know what options you have too. FWIW, mine are about 12 ft apart...

[krishna]

Dawnrazor:

With a room width of 13 feet and a ceiling height of 12 feet, the Cardas formula for dipoles gives me 3.59 feet from the side walls (no problem) and 7.42 feet from the front wall (oh, oh). Using the standard Cardas formula, I have them around 5.5 feet from the front wall which is about as far in as I can place them for regular use. I will check the performance using the other formula, just to see how they sound.

I have been trying to move the speakers slightly, towards or away from the side walls, so that the centres of either the speakers, the woofer section or the tweeter section are at the distance recommended by Cardas. The best results seem to be when the centres of the speakers are at this distance. More experiments are needed.

There is a slight muffled quality (is this what is described as 'chestiness') to male voices. Will this reduce with further break in or do I need to do something to eliminate it?

[Dawnrazor]

Hey K,

The trick is to keep trying. Eventually you will find the best balance of performance and room practicality.

It has been over 10 years since I heard a stock mmg...so i THINK you just need to let them break in and that chestiness may disappear. I certainly dont notice what you are describing.

And maybe you might want to break them in before you go to the trouble of finding the right spot for them. Things might be different when they are broken in.

Those room impractical placements might explain why I ditched the Cardas setup. That and I had subs, and the Cardas really nails the bass though IMHO to the detriment of imaging, or at least soundstage width. I can give up some bass.

Anyhow, I am soooo excited for you! Getting them vertical should help too, especially with the image height.

[Feanor]

Awesome you got them so soon.

As I read your post, you just put them in the same spot as the dynaudios????

If so try the cardas formula for dipoles:
http://www.cardas.com/speaker_placement.php?type=dipole

Also there is really no right or wrong about the tweeters in or out. What it really comes down to most is the distance BETWEEN the tweeters. Most people never adjust for that, and mostly what happens when you swap them in or out, is you change the tweeter distances!

FWIW the Cardas setup is a good start, but I always thought it put the speakers far too close together and created a small soundstage. YMMV but if you have the space, try getting them further apart until there is a whole in the middle effect and then bring them closer till you get a strong center image. THis will maximize soundstage width. YOu might indeed like them closer together, but it is nice to know what options you have too. FWIW, mine are about 12 ft apart...

The Cardas formula for dipoles is just impossible for me given my space; too far from the wall behind & too far from the side walls, (too close together), to permit reasonable stereo separation from my possible listening possition. BTW, I listen with my MG 1.6 tweeters on the outside to maximize stereo separation; this also happens to be Magnpan's recommendation.

[Dawnrazor]

The Cardas formula for dipoles is just impossible for me given my space; too far from the wall behind & too far from the walls to permit reasonable stereo separation from my possible listening possition. BTW, I listen with my MG 1.6 tweeters on the outside to maximize stereo separation; this also happens to be Magnpan's recommendation.

I agree with you about the Cardas setup Feanor.

It never was realistic in my room either.

I still say that the tweeter distance is what is important. Meaning that if you put your tweets on the inside BUT put them in the same place as they are now on the outside, you would probably like that just the same or even better as the sound stage would be a bit wider.

Magnepan recommends the outside IMHO because it is the easiest way to get the widest tweeter separation from their speakers in a given room. But will it be better than inside with the tweeters in the same place? Perhaps not if your room can handle it.

But no one ever takes tweeter distance into account. They just put the speakers in the same place and all that does mostly is change the tweeter separation dramatically. And fwiw, if you start setting them up with things on the outside you will always prefer them outside. If you set them up on the inside, you will always prefer them on the inside....because invariably you will get the tweeters to the right separation. Any change will be "wrong"....

I tried to upload a pict and well it shows in the box, it doesnt seem to be in the post. Any tips?

[Feanor]

I agree with you about the Cardas setup Feanor.

It never was realistic in my room either.

I still say that the tweeter distance is what is important. Meaning that if you put your tweets on the inside BUT put them in the same place as they are now on the outside, you would probably like that just the same or even better as the sound stage would be a bit wider.

Magnepan recommends the outside IMHO because it is the easiest way to get the widest tweeter separation from their speakers in a given room. But will it be better than inside with the tweeters in the same place? Perhaps not if your room can handle it.

But no one ever takes tweeter distance into account. They just put the speakers in the same place and all that does mostly is change the tweeter separation dramatically. And fwiw, if you start setting them up with things on the outside you will always prefer them outside. If you set them up on the inside, you will always prefer them on the inside....because invariably you will get the tweeters to the right separation. Any change will be "wrong"....

I tried to upload a pict and well it shows in the box, it doesnt seem to be in the post. Any tips?

I see your pic OK, DR.

Your conclusion might well be correct that the tweeter on the inside would yield a wider soundstage. However in my case it would put the speakers too close to the side walls which is the primary reason I put the tweeters on the inside instead; (Magnepan's recommendation is a secondary factor).

[E-Stat]

The Cardas formula for dipoles is just impossible for me given my space; too far from the wall behind & too far from the walls to permit reasonable stereo separation from my possible listening possition.

It really is all about the room. With my 25x16 room, I use greater distances from side and back walls alike than the Cardas recommendations (which ignore room length). After much experimentation and measuring, I found that roughly using the "Thirds Rule" for both worked best. Admittedly, there is no TV screen in the middle to dictate otherwise.

rw

[krishna]

This whole discussion on MMG placement is really interesting. I will try out all your suggestions as I go along, using the Cardas formulae as a starting point. I have a question though: when you talk about distances from the side wall, are you talking about the geometric centre of the speaker, the centre of the woofer or the centre of the tweeter? This question never arose with my old Dynaudios, because the tweeters and woofers were aligned in the vertical plane.

By the way, I discovered that my stock MMG stands were a little wobbly and used aluminium washers to ensure the screws were tight. It made an audible difference.

[Dawnrazor]

Hey K,

I think most maggie owner just measure to the side of the speaker closest to the sidewall. maybe others will chime in if they do it differently, but it seems easier and more accurate to measure to the side of the speaker.

And looks like the stock stands still blow. That little thing they use to raise the speaker a bit is pretty lame. Now my see why Mye stands and diy stands arise.

The MMGs are an amazing speaker and I wouldnt be surprised if you can get them to sound great in a couple of different configurations.

Try getting them 100% vertical and see what that does. As for placement, just take it slow and realize that most mags take a while to find the right spot in the room.

[Dawnrazor]

. I have a question though: when you talk about distances from the side wall, are you talking about the geometric centre of the speaker, the centre of the woofer or the centre of the tweeter? .

Hey, the Cardas formula is supposed to be the middle of the woofer...My previous reply was just stating how most uses probably measure to the sidewalls.

HOw is it going?

[krishna]

DR:

I have been trying to get some stands fabricated here with the help of a friend. Will upload a picture shortly. I am also experimenting with the placement (with the tweeter on the inside and outside). I will summarize my subjective impressions in my next post - need to listen to more tracks to be able to make an assessment.

It occurred to me that if I could straighten out the standard feet that come with the MMGs so that the angle is 90 degrees, I could mount the speaker panels on a flat wooden base and weigh the base down with a granite slab. That would make for an elegant speaker stand that is also very stable. Any comments?

[Dawnrazor]

K,

YOu can get 90 degree shelving brackets that are essentially a right triangle and that would be an easy way to do what you are talking about.

Here is an EXAMPLE in wood, but you could use metal as well:

http://www.wall-shelf.cn/shelf-brackets-4.htm

As for the tweets in or out, the real answer is that usually you will prefer the orientation you start with. It is mostly about the tweeter distances. If you start one way, you will eventually find the ideal distance. When you switch and if you just put the speaker back in the same place but with the tweets in a different orientation, all you are really doing is adjusting the tweets by about 1 1/2ft in the case of the mmgs.

If you start with the tweets inside, putting them outside will often collapse the center image...if you start with them outside, putting them inside will squash the soundstage.

Now if you swap them but adjust for tweeter position...putting the tweeters in the same place when outside and inside, the inside position will give a slightly larger soundstage, but often outside is more practical as it yeild the largest tweeter distance with the smallest SPEAKER distance.

[krishna]

Here is a picture of the stand that a friend helped me fabricate for the MMGs. The wooden brackets are from Ikea and a shelf was cut to the size needed for the base. I got granite slabs to provide more weight and improve stability. The original metal feet are shown for comparison. I will be away in India for the next couple of weeks. More after I return...

[justdhruv]

Are the maggies more forgiving to amp quality than other box type speakers. Do you think I can pair them with a crown amp.

[JoeE SP9]

Are the maggies more forgiving to amp quality than other box type speakers. Do you think I can pair them with a crown amp.

No and yes. Maggy's are extremely revealing of amps and source. You will hear any shortcomings in your gear. They like lots of Watts. You can pair them with any amp.

[E-Stat]

Are the maggies more forgiving to amp quality than other box type speakers. Do you think I can pair them with a crown amp.

They are forgiving of the load in that you can use tube amps that would not be a good match for many box speakers. Because they are revealing, I would prefer to use something other than an amp intended for PA use.

rw

[JoeE SP9]

E-Stat, all "PA" amps are not the same. I looked at the Crowns on the recommendation of someone who tried them with some Apogee ribbons and reported very good results.

If the OP is a DIY'r one of the ClassD amps like Feanor built could be a good alternative.

[E-Stat]

E-Stat, all "PA" amps are not the same. I looked at the Crowns on the recommendation of someone who tried them with some Apogee ribbons and reported very good results.

Indeed, one's choice of amps that can drive their unusual 1 ohm load are rather limited. Most Apogee folks use Krell or large tube amps. To what did he compare?

If the OP is a DIY'r one of the ClassD amps like Feanor built could be a good alternative.

Unlike Feanor's unit, I'd rather not use an amp with a fan for music playback.

rw

[Feanor]

...
Unlike Feanor's unit, I'd rather not use an amp with a fan for music playback.

rw

'Stat, the amp Joe is referring to is my Class-D-Audio SDS-258 -- it uses no fan. And it would be outstanding, IMO, used with any Maggie, possibly excepting the MG 20.1.

[Raj J]

Hi everybody:

This is my first post on this forum. I would appreciate any advice anyone can give me about using an ICEpower amplifier (EAR 202) with the Magnepan MMG speakers.

My EAR 202 amplifier is rated to 290 W RMS into 4 ohms. I am currently using it with ten year old Dynaudio Audience 50 speakers.

I play my music off my home PC using a Squeezebox 3 as a transport and a Benchmark DAC1 that also serves as a preamp.

I also have a DIY sub assembled from a Parts Express design. It works well with my Dynaudio speakers. The lowpass frequency is set to 50 Hz.

My listening tastes tend towards soft music and I am not particularly worried about heavy bass. Musicality and detail are more important.

Thanks!

good day mate,
glad to learn that you are interested in panel design loudspeakers, they will indeed open new horizons in your musical life! I noticed a very critical aspect of your message; you have clearly mentioned that you are more interested in musicality & detail, and not too fussy on bass. (you also seem to like the same sort of music I listen to as well, Eric Clapton and Fourplay, producer Bob James and his trio. back in 1995, I listened to the Fourplay group live! Bob james, Harvey Manson, Nathan East and guitarist Lee Ritenour, they were outstanding!)
with your preference of musicality & detail, have you ever considered using valve/vacuum tube amplifiers for your magneplanars?

I am not so sure about the brand of amp you're using at the moment, and anything above 100 watts is way too much for an MMG speaker. if musicality and detail is what you're after and you are on a limited budget, try these amps out you will be amazed!
1. Cayin A50T or KT88 integrated tube amp.
2. Golden Tube SE40 or 300B
3. Quad II Forty or II80 (more expensive)
4. Cary SLI80 or CAD 300SEI or the CAD 120S MKII (more expensive)
5. conrad johnson LP66S or LP70S (power amp only) c-j currently doesn't make any integrated amps. they have a older one that was fantastic called the CAV50. other c-j tube amps you may want to try out: premier 11A, MV55, MV75, MV60/SE (I'm currently using the c-j MV60SE power amp)

these are outstanding tube amps that will make maggies sign! since your preference is musicality and detail that's what tube amps are all about. try them out, you won't know what you're missing until you've listened to maggies driven with wonderful tube amplification. sorry I cannot recommend any solid state amplifiers here, because to me there are none out there that come close to the natural tones that tube amps have.

unless you were goig for some top end solid state designs that could buy you a small house, names such as Pass Labs, Mark Levinson and Jeff Rowland are excellent solid state amps, but cost a bomb! also with maggies you need to be able to keep high quality up the chain, espcially the amplification. from preamp to power amp, source and cables must all be either similar quality or similar design. no point going too cheep on amps and messing up down the chain. remember that you don't have to spend big bucks to get it right. but with panels they do require some quality equipment to sound its best.

I started out with Quad Electrostatics in the late 80's, then moved onto Apogees, Martin Logans, Magneplanars, and back to Quads. I now have their newer designs the ESL 2905's driven with all conrad johnson amplification, plus the CD palyer is also a tube design.
this is where it starts and this is where it will end - tubes rule!

cheers mate, and all the best.
Raj J (melbourne)

[JoeE SP9]

E-Stat: The person that recommended the Crowns's was using a Krell KSA-200 or an ARC VT-100. I can't comment on the Crown Class D amps. I've never heard one. IMO Crown should have continued production of the old XLS series. The new Crown XLS series amps are Class D.

I fully intend giving a Class D Audio amp a try sometime this spring.

Raj J: I'm sory, but I can't agree with your asessment of how much amplifier power MMG's need. 100 Watts or more of solid state power is IMO needed to make MMG's work properly. 60 Watts of tube power seems to be sufficient. This opinion is based on listening to 4 different MMG based systems. Two systems (Adcom GFA-555 and Accurus A-250 driven) are sub woofer augmented. A third (B&K ST-202) is considering a sub woofer. The fourth (Adcom GFA-545) system is less than two weeks old.

krishna: Your current amp should be fine.

[justdhruv]

Wanted to know. How small a sweet spot do the MMGs have?

[Feanor]

Wanted to know. How small a sweet spot do the MMGs have?

Like other Magneplanar with the approx. 2 inch quasi-ribbon tweeter-midrange, i.e. MG 12, MG 1.6, the MMG's sweet spot is quite narrow: about 2-3 feet wide. Of course, the narrowness of the sweet spot pertains only to high frequencies.