Tough Decisions for Obama

[Feanor]

For someone who doesn't have disdain for Americans, you sure do trash the US a lot.

Before you seek a cure you must acknowledge your illness. Denial doesn't work.

Or are you a death squad member?

[GMichael]

... Well I lied.


Far Left?? By no means, friends. Nobody here has expressed "far" Left views as the term has a world-wide meaning.

So far skewed to the Right is U.S. politics that it has distorted sensibilities of what is "common sense", "middle ground", "respectful", or "accepted taste". Concepts that challenge American conventionalities, ("defined paradigms"), are exterminated by Right-wing intellectual death squads.

Didn't somebody at CNN recently describe Rush Limbaugh as "currently the most prominent Republican"? I believe the biggest threat to the U.S. isn't Socalist, (much less Communism), but Fascist. (Or a more precise historical parallel, Falangist: look it up.)

I find that most Americans are skewed to the Left. The media is sure skewed so far to the Left as to have, "distorted sensibilities of what is "common sense". But that's just how I see it. Others may disagree, and I will fight for their right to do so.

By the way, Rush Limbaugh is an idiot IMO.

And we could use a little Socialism to control things like health care and utility costs. A hybrid between Capitalism and Socialism seems like the best bet to me. But that doesn't mean that I agree with everything the liberals of the world have to say. I disagree with points on both sides. What I disagree with most is the separation of parties. It seems like no democrats will agree with anything a Republican has to say and vise versa. Both parties spend way too much time trying to vilify the other. If they were to work together a little, they could actually get something fixed. But I doubt that will happen. It's like there's some kind of unwritten rule that if a Dem were to support a Rep (or Rep to Dem) then he/she would be drummed out of their party. tarred, feathered, and run out of town on a rail.
Less fighting and more cooperation would be a good thing. Our new Cheif seems to be saying the same thing. He's gets my support for that. Hope he can pull it off.

[02audionoob]

Before you seek a cure you must acknowledge your illness. Denial doesn't work.

Or are you a death squad member?

I ordinarily vote with the liberals. Why are you being such a jackass?

[Feanor]

I find that most Americans are skewed to the Left. The media is sure skewed so far to the Left as to have, "distorted sensibilities of what is "common sense". But that's just how I see it. Others may disagree, and I will fight for their right to do so.

By the way, Rush Limbaugh is an idiot IMO.

And we could use a little Socialism to control things like health care and utility costs. A hybrid between Capitalism and Socialism seems like the best bet to me. ...

You're a sensible voice, GM.

But believe me, the US isn't skewed to the Left. Most around here will agree that Limbaugh is an idiot yet he has the most popular talk show in the US. What are we to make of it?

[GMichael]

You're a sensible voice, GM. But believe me, the US isn't skewed to the Left.

I don't know. I live here. It sure seems skewed to the left to me. But I'm sure that anyone on the Right would think that the grass is greener on the other side. Same can be said for people on the Left. It's not until people can start being more tollerant of other's views that we can get something done.

Hey! What the h.ll have you gotten me into? I don't want to be serious. Where's my beer?

[02audionoob]

Most around here will agree that Limbaugh is an idiot yet he has the most popular talk show in the US. What are we to make of it?

Rasmussen Reports says 62% of American have an unfavorable view of Rush Limbaugh.

[GMichael]

Most around here will agree that Limbaugh is an idiot yet he has the most popular talk show in the US. What are we to make of it?

That people love controversy and shock jocks. Just look at Howard Stern. We (not me) love to hear people say stupid chit so we can jump up and down and call them names. Look how many people read every post that Pix writes. It doesn't mean that we agree with him. Far from it.

[Feanor]

I ordinarily vote with the liberals. Why are you being such a jackass?

I'm not the epitome of tact: too bad about that.

But please understand: what I'm hearing is that I'm not allowed to criticize anything American.

[GMichael]

It's like there's some kind of unwritten rule that if a Dem were to support a Rep (or Rep to Dem) then he/she would be drummed out of their party. tarred, feathered, and run out of town on a rail.

Most of us would love to see Pix tarred and feathered again. Here he is after his last visit with Sir T.

[02audionoob]

what I'm hearing is that I'm not allowed to criticize anything American.

It's not that. It's that your "criticisms" are so far over the top. You lump us all together into one big pile of fascists. You're as one-sided as Rush...maybe worse. You're not actually criticizing and the foible at hand isn't a lack of tack...it's an extremist point of view.

[Ajani]

what I'm hearing is that I'm not allowed to criticize anything American.

You're not.

That's the problem with politics... we all get thrown into categories: Local Versus Foreigner, Liberal Versus Conservative, Black Versus White, etc etc etc...

It happens all over the world... there's always a "good reason" to ignore someone else's opinion... He protests the handling of the war, so he must be unpatriotic... He wants to increase health care benefits so he must be a socialist... and so on...

I wonder if I'll live to see a day when we stop finding reasons to divide and start having real discussions of the issues... When we stop perpetuating the myths that you have to be either a communist freedom oppressor or a self serving evil capitalist... there's so much in this world that can't truly be categorized by one rigid doctrine or the other...

[02audionoob]

You're not.

That's just flatly untrue. Freedom of speech as one of the founding principles of the US is alive and well. It's doing alright in other countries, too. Having someone object to your point of view or the way you express it doesn't mean you're not allowed to say it.

What I see in some of these posts is an extremist's one-sided characterization of an entire nation as fascists. That's not criticism so much as name-calling.

[Feanor]

It's not that. It's that your "criticisms" are so far over the top. You lump us all together into one big pile of fascists. You're as one-sided as Rush...maybe worse. You're not actually criticizing and the foible at hand isn't a lack of tack...it's an extremist point of view.

I can't think of anything I said that implies that Americans are a homogenius blob or that their opinions are all the same. If that is your inference, let me set you straight: I know there is great diversity of opinion in the U.S. and I'm very glad for it. However I did say is that the overall balance in the US leans to the Right versus other countries in general. This is based on my 45 years of observation of American politics.

What is "over the top" depends on your perspective. My criticisms are moderate and friendly compared to generral world opinion at the end of the Bush era. The good news that worldwide most people hope and expect improvement from the new adminstration.

[Ajani]

That's just flatly untrue. Freedom of speech as one of the founding principles of the US is alive and well. It's doing alright in other countries, too. Having someone object to your point of view or the way you express it doesn't mean you're not allowed to say it.

What I see in some of these posts is an extremist's one-sided characterization of an entire nation as fascists. That's not criticism so much as name-calling.

For you it is untrue... I do see what you take issue with in some of Feanor's posts (sometimes his passion for politics overshadows his ability to be subtle and non-insulting)... But there are many many people who really don't regard freedom of speech and alternate opinions... Sometimes patriotic people are manipulated into thinking that divergent opinions are unpatriotic (sadly, I saw a lot of that during the Iraq war)...

And the ultra-sad truth is that Feanor's harshest opinions on America are rather moderate compared to some of the extreme anti-American sentiment I've seen expressed around the world...

My point is that we need to try and listen to each other more...

[JSE]

But believe me, the US isn't skewed to the Left.

It's relative. In regard to rest of the world, we are not to far left. However, within our form of government, we are way left right now.

A socialist country will always be far to our left when looking at it globally.

[02audionoob]

I can't think of anything I said that implies that Americans are a homogenius blob or that their opinions are all the same. If that is your inference, let me set you straight: I know there is great diversity of opinion in the U.S. and I'm very glad for it. However I did say is that the overall balance in the US leans to the Right versus other countries in general. This is based on my 45 years of observation of American politics.

So far skewed to the Right is U.S. politics that it has distorted sensibilities of what is "common sense", "middle ground", "respectful", or "accepted taste". Concepts that challenge American conventionalities, ("defined paradigms"), are exterminated by Right-wing intellectual death squads.

This comment neither says nor implies anything about the "overall balance".

[02audionoob]

For you it is untrue... I do see what you take issue with in some of Feanor's posts (sometimes his passion for politics overshadows his ability to be subtle and non-insulting)...

I don't take exception to Feanor's tone. I take exception to the actual statement. I do find it disappointing that the world's view of Americans is down. I also hope it comes up at least a little with the new administration. But if Feanor's comments represent the world's view of the typical American, especially at what you call a moderate level, then they're wrong....bad wrong.

[Ajani]

I don't take exception to Feanor's tone. I take exception to the actual statement. I do find it disappointing that the world's view of Americans is down. I also hope it comes up at least a little with the new administration.

Just electing Obama has raised America's image quite a bit in the world, as it ends the long held belief that America is too racist to elect a minority (At least we won't have to hear anymore celebrities say that the president doesn't care about black people - Kanye's famous Katrina line). Also it is seen as a rejection of Bush and his cowboy diplomacy, which saw America's respect plummet worldwide... Now the real question is whether Obama can deliver (considering his lack of experience & the sheer number of obstacles, dreams and expectations placed upon him worldwide)

But if Feanor's comments represent the world's view of the typical American, especially at what you call a moderate level, then they're wrong....bad wrong.

Hopefully they are... the problem is that the view of America have gotten worse and worse over time (especially the last 8 years)... And many people fail to realize that many of us (foreigners) watch probably as much American TV as Americans do... so we see how news is reported: "A Brave American soldier twisted his ankle in Iraq, meanwhile 13 Canadian and British soldiers were killed in a car bombing.. more on the Brave American after the commercial break" or my 'favorite' Olympic Games - '96 in Atlanta - America's Games... Since NBC had exclusive coverage of the games, us foreigners in the west had the joy of watching as the only events covered where ones with Americans in them... so popular events like the sprints where ignored to show long distance rowing... even worse, the cameras would follow the American athletes, so they'd follow an American in last place and ignore the winner of the event... That's a case of taking National Pride to a ridiculous level, to the point of being anti-everyone else... Nonsense like that gives the rest of the world a strong impression that you think nothing of them ... Eventually our local stations had to arrange a feed from the BBC so we could actually see the Olympics...

My point is that, the impression the rest of the world gets of America is from watching American TV and having to deal with the effects of American foreign policy... I have no doubt that it is unfair to lump all Americans in one category, just as it is ridiculous to assume that all Jamaicans are one way etc... but America has a lot of work to do in order to repair its world image...

[Luvin Da Blues]

..... But if Feanor's comments represent the world's view of the typical American, especially at what you call a moderate level, then they're wrong....bad wrong.

Spoken like a true patriot.

[02audionoob]

Spoken like a true patriot.

Wow...this is a tough room!

[Rich-n-Texas]

I'm right there with ya 02.

Fight the good fight!

[Luvin Da Blues]

Wow...this is a tough room!

Anyone that stands up for their country/ideas (regardless if I agree or not) is OK in my book.

[nightflier]

Just electing Obama has raised America's image quite a bit in the world...

Even before the man starts, we are already patting ourselves on the back for this? Would it be too much to suggest, given the level of abuse in the previous administration, that electing Obama was not so much a move to the left as a move to the center, and consequently a return to normalcy and synergy with the rest of the Western world, if not the whole world? Maybe a little humility is in order.

Someone mentioned the war in Iraq so let's consider that as an example. Can this act of aggression even be justified? I'm not talking about the WMDs or the fact that Saddam was a monster, as those reasons will be laughed out of the history books in due time. But if not those, than what was the reason? Frankly, I just don't think that this war can be justified or even legitimized through international law. As such, the war is symbolic of our complete disregard for law, civility, and morality. Did everybody not see what our troops did in Faluja and Abu Graib? Perhaps more importantly, did everybody forget what apologists like Limbaugh and Coulter said about these atrocities? And so we now want to ascribe these acts to a central position? After all, if Obama with his anti-Iraq-war stance and his promise to close prisons and curtail torture is leftist, then the other side must be either rightist or centrist. Well, which is it? Are we not completely out of synch with the rest of the civilized world if we continue to believe that (A) the past administration was anywhere near the center, or that (B) Obama is anywhere near the left? And that's just one example, but we can make a similar case for the economy, the environment, personal freedoms, and the just about every other issue.

For anyone that doubts any of these assertions, I can only conclude that such a person hasn't traveled. I can tell you in no uncertain terms that what we see, read, and hear in the popular media, even what we like to call the left-leaning media such as National Public Radio, is considered conservative in most other countries. I was in Europe last year for an extended stay where I had the opportunity to visit many countries. Trust me when I say this, there was no greater hatred and loathing than for Americans. To put that into perspective, it wasn't too long ago that this kind of sentiment was reserved for Russia & China. And to Feanor's credit, the disenchantment with us Americans wasn't just directed at our leaders, but also at us for letting them become our leaders and remaining our leaders. Yes there were protests here, but did any of us attend them before they fizzled out?

I also traveled to South America before that (before the Chavez/Lula changes) and again, the hatred was deep-seated and persistent. Every Argentinian and Chilean knows full well that our hands are equally bloodied by the massive repressions of the past decades. Likewise every Ecuadorean knows that we are stealing their natural resources to satisfy our own excesses. Whether the criticism is entirely deserved or not, the sentiment is very much there. Maybe we owe it to the rest of the world to not just elect an Obama, but to also change our perspective about who we are, and perhaps to participate in the reparations. There may very well be a day in the future when we no longer are the dominant military threat in the world, and when we will greatly depend on the goodwill we are now willing to show the rest of the world from this point forward.

So for anyone that thinks we are now a leftist country, I suggest you take a good look outside our borders first. You may not like what you see.

[bobsticks]

... Well I lied.

...or read: responded to the intent of the original provocation as was predicted...

which was the direction in which this thread was going before it became clear that sans more data this would turn into yet another ideological polemic.

Far Left?? By no means, friends. Nobody here has expressed "far" Left views as the term has a world-wide meaning.

Well, actually they've been fairly well defined by you.

So far skewed to the Right is U.S. politics that it has distorted sensibilities of what is "common sense", "middle ground", "respectful", or "accepted taste"..

Does it surprise you to read that I agree with this? Sometimes I suspect that folks get so caught up in the passion that they forget to read for content. I agree that U.S. politics has become far skewed, though in my experience it's beento both extremes.

Concepts that challenge American conventionalities, ("defined paradigms"), are exterminated by Right-wing intellectual death squads.

C'mon Bill, enough already with the hyperbole and the straw man fallacies. We're the homeland of "Piss Christ" and have an individual who consistently runs for the California legislature under the auspices of the Zapata Party.We're nothing but a juxtaposition of crazy ideas and practices.

Most of the concepts that fail to gain strong support have been exterminated by the light of history. We've got enough ghettos and trailerparks.We don't need to construct another Nevsky Prospekt for our unwed mothers to drive their astrovans Potemkin through.

I believe the biggest threat to the U.S. isn't Socalist, (much less Communism), but Fascist. (Or a more precise historical parallel, Falangist: look it up.)

Interesting. I could quibble about the advanced technocratic oligarchy already entrenched within our society but I see some strong similarities, especially within the current military industrial complex, momentary cries for government control over industry and the religious involvement. I envision this as more reactionary to the current downward spiral and imagine the pious folks would hoisted on their own petard in short order.

I don't think we have to worry about socialism overtaking us...we're halfway there.

[Feanor]

...
C'mon Bill, enough already with the hyperbole and the straw man fallacies. We're the homeland of "Piss Christ" and have an individual who consistently runs for the California legislature under the auspices of the Zapata Party.We're nothing but a juxtaposition of crazy ideas and practices.
....

Well, I was wrong if I implied that a wide range of opinions doesn't exist State-side. It's just that it isn't particularly tolerated in some quarters, especially when encouraged by foreigners.

....
I don't think we have to worry about socialism overtaking us...we're halfway there.

Granted, with the new administration the threat of moderate centrism is very real.