Spidey BluRay sales disapointing.

[Groundbeef]

While I have not had the stamina to read the preceeding tomes in their entirety, it seems as if the issue of contention is whether "Sony is giving away free games". It seems to me that if the retailer is baring the burden of an increased cost for the goods at a lesser margin or same retail price then it's actually the retailer that is giving away games. The picking of nits and a matter of semantics to be sure, but technically correct.

I would agree, however, that the motivation of the consumer is strictly based on the greatest utility at the lowest cost.

In the "bundle" format there is NO increased cost to the retailer. Margins are already razor thin on consoles (according to a manager I know at a couple game shops) they typically only make a few $$ on the actual console. Thats why they pimp the extended warrenty, extra controllers, and the games.

This is different than say BB selling the PS3, and then "giving" the consumer a free game off the shelf. In that instance the retailer WOULD be giving away the games. However, this isn't the case. This is a PS3 with a FREE Sony made game included.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Wow, Sir T you are right, I always wondered why I sat there and looked at the package for so long trying to determine whether or not to buy it, I kept going back and forth, "is this a promotional item or a giveaway?"

The consumer doesn't really care in the matter and your point doesn't hold water, although it does perhaps from the manufacturers standpoint, but the consumer isn't looking at that detail, just the end result, which is "What can I get for free?"

Well Mr racist, I wasn't aware that you could think actually. Since Sony is a manufacturer, I was speaking from their point of view. And I did say that to the consumers all of this is the same from their perspective. Maybe thinking and reading is beyond you, as it is beyond most racists.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

In the "bundle" format there is NO increased cost to the retailer. Margins are already razor thin on consoles (according to a manager I know at a couple game shops) they typically only make a few $$ on the actual console. Thats why they pimp the extended warrenty, extra controllers, and the games.

This is different than say BB selling the PS3, and then "giving" the consumer a free game off the shelf. In that instance the retailer WOULD be giving away the games.

Hence giveaway right?

However, this isn't the case. This is a PS3 with a FREE Sony made game included.

Bundle, and that is fundementally different from a giveaway. You understand the concept completely, which is why I think you are arguing just for the sake of an arguement. If that is the case, I am through wasting my time with you. This is the second time I have wasted my time with your stupidity, and it will be the last I assure you.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I think he is getting a bit overloaded because now several of us are not in agreement with him and he can't seem to keep up with all of it, so instead of retreating in defeat he lets his ego do all the talking.

Racist, I debated your stupid azz, GB stupid azz, and nightliar stupid azz all at the same time. None of you agreed with me. Nightliar is on hiatus for now, you haven't offered a damn thing to debate, and GB can be handled when he is not just being a retard. It would take far more than your three can deliver to overload me, so let's not get this thing twisted.

Now you just muddle along back with your racist idealogies, and cut the online pyscho analysis unless you want to do it on yourself. Maybe you can figure out that everyone within a single race is not cut out of the same cloth.

[PeruvianSkies]

In the "bundle" format there is NO increased cost to the retailer. Margins are already razor thin on consoles (according to a manager I know at a couple game shops) they typically only make a few $$ on the actual console. Thats why they pimp the extended warrenty, extra controllers, and the games.

This is different than say BB selling the PS3, and then "giving" the consumer a free game off the shelf. In that instance the retailer WOULD be giving away the games. However, this isn't the case. This is a PS3 with a FREE Sony made game included.

Yes indeed, I used to work in similar situations and there were often times where the store would eat the profit here and there to generate sales upfront.

[PeruvianSkies]

Well Mr racist, I wasn't aware that you could think actually. Since Sony is a manufacturer, I was speaking from their point of view. And I did say that to the consumers all of this is the same from their perspective. Maybe thinking and reading is beyond you, as it is beyond most racists.

I am far from racist, you are just overly sensitive to the truth, which is why what I said offended you and I was only pointing out what my hispanic said as a generalization of her culture, which you seemed to fit well, it's not my fault that you fit the stereotype.

[PeruvianSkies]

Racist, I debated your stupid azz, GB stupid azz, and nightliar stupid azz all at the same time. None of you agreed with me. Nightliar is on hiatus for now, you haven't offered a damn thing to debate, and GB can be handled when he is not just being a retard. It would take far more than your three can deliver to overload me, so let's not get this thing twisted.

Now you just muddle along back with your racist idealogies, and cut the online pyscho analysis unless you want to do it on yourself. Maybe you can figure out that everyone within a single race is not cut out of the same cloth.

So now you are insulting mentally retarded people? That's real nice. Talk about a new low.

[JSE]

Good freaking God. I read this whole thread.

BR, HDDVD....... whatever. They will both be obsolete within 5 years when everything will be able to be obtained online through itune-like providers or cable/sat providers. Within 5 or so years, you will just click on which movie you want and download it, store it on hard drive and be done with it. The film vs. digital revolution in the photography world is a perfect example of this. CD vs. mp3? Same thing. How are CD sales doing lately?

JSE

[musicman1999]

There will always be people that refuse to accept mediocre quality when high quality is available.Ever compare a cd to an mp3, mp3 suck quality wise.Downloads may at somepoint many years from now replace rentals.


bill

[pixelthis]

Good freaking God. I read this whole thread.

BR, HDDVD....... whatever. They will both be obsolete within 5 years when everything will be able to had online through itune-like providers or cable/sat providers. Within 5 or so years, you will just click on which movie you want and download it, store it on hard drive and be done with it. The film vs. digital revolution in the photography world is a perfect example of this. CD vs. mp3? Same thing. How are CD sales doing lately.

JSE

Kinda simplistic, but basically what I have been saying for awhile.
As for MP3 there are a lot of codecs that dont sacrifice quality, Mp3 really came about in a 56k world. There are non-lossy types like FLAC and APE.
Thinking that you have to sacrifice "quality" is the mantra of those opposing this view,
while there are the wrecks of dozen of companies that have gone broke trying to sell "quality" to the masses.
Those who populate boards like this one tend to be an exception, which is why I have been saying that we need Blu Ray TO "WIN" THIS FORMAT WAR.
Last time a crappy video system won over a better one and we were stuck with it for a few decades. DOESNT matter if the audio or video-phile faces reality or not, this hobby rides on a sea of mediocrity, mass production gives us the economies of scale to build decent gear from the parts of more mediocre machines.
If HDDVD or a similar inferiour format wins this we will be stuck with it, and any "high end"
product will be limited by the tech it came from.
the business model of the future will be VOD and downloading, for rental, and maybe ONE format of high q for archiving "collections" that people for some reason dont want on hard drive, but something more permanent. Theres only gonna be room for one format,
indeed there doesnt need to be any more than one.
The only question is, which one?

[JSE]

There will always be people that refuse to accept mediocre quality when high quality is available.Ever compare a cd to an mp3, mp3 suck quality wise.Downloads may at somepoint many years from now replace rentals.


bill

I don't think it will be many years. It's already starting. I know a lot of people who download movies and store them on hardrives, ipods, DVDs, etc. These are the "masses" that support and drive the market. Like Pix said, people like us on boards are the exception. There are far far more people out their who will give up some quality for covenience. I agreed downloads are not the same quality as Blueray or HDDVD but they probably will be at some point or they will at least be good enough that even more people will switch. SACD and DVD Audio and even CD have been killed by mp3. People have choosen convenience and "decent" quality over superior formats. Why would video be any different? If I were BR or HDDVD, I would drop the price of players like a rock while the "getting is still good" and video download is still in the "infant" stages. The longer people hold off on buying these players due to price is the longer they will have to discover video download. I really think BR and HDDVD have a fairly small window of opportunity here and they are blowing it.

And for the record, I would prefer BR or HDDVD became and stayed the standard for a long time. I, like most people here, want quality.

And, to whoever gave me a red chicklet for going off topic in this thread and did not have the balls to ID themselves, screw you. If your gonna give a red chicklet, be man or women enough to sign it. I don't mind getting red chicklets, I just can't stand cowards.

[johnny p]

[QUOTE=JSE
And for the record, I would prefer BR or HDDVD became and stayed the standard for a long time. I, like most people here, want quality.

.[/QUOTE]


AMEN! I can't commit to buying the BR b/c I feel less confident about it...... and I don't want to buy a cheaper HD b/c I want to hold the hope that BR will win out!

[pixelthis]

AMEN! I can't commit to buying the BR b/c I feel less confident about it...... and I don't want to buy a cheaper HD b/c I want to hold the hope that BR will win out!

I love this JSE guy.

But while I am a blu fanboy I would be willing to accept HDDVD if it were the only format tommorrow. I think this "format" war is that destructive.
We need ONE format NOW.
And while blu is superiour I will accept anything that gets us to the next step

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I am far from racist, you are just overly sensitive to the truth, which is why what I said offended you and I was only pointing out what my hispanic said as a generalization of her culture, which you seemed to fit well, it's not my fault that you fit the stereotype.

You are a racist. How do we know that you have a hispanic wife? We don't. So you are too stupid to realize that you cannot make generalization on a whole race when the generalization is a human character issue, not a race issue.

Like I said to before, George W. Bush is arrogant, does not admit he is wrong. He is a white male, are all white males like that? No. So you cannot assume that all puerto ricans males are like that as well. Are you really this stupid?

What you have essentially said is that because I am a white male, I am perfect and that is why my wife married me. If she believes this, she is stupid. If you believe this, you are more stupid.

Actually I am glad you said it, now I know amoug other things you are a racist idiot.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Good freaking God. I read this whole thread.

BR, HDDVD....... whatever. They will both be obsolete within 5 years when everything will be able to be obtained online through itune-like providers or cable/sat providers. Within 5 or so years, you will just click on which movie you want and download it, store it on hard drive and be done with it. The film vs. digital revolution in the photography world is a perfect example of this. CD vs. mp3? Same thing. How are CD sales doing lately?

JSE

JSE, P2P traffic is already overloading comcast's system to the point they are slowing down traffic, or cutting P2P entirely through their network. If all of comcast customers suddenly switch to downloading, the internet would be clogged beyond belief.

What if you hard drive crashed? Generally download sites do not allow you to re-load or replace you movies you lost. So you have to pay for it again. Do you really think consumers will go for that? I don't.

I do not think the film vs digital revolution is a good comparison. I didn't require any additional capacity to switch from film to disc. It didn't require a consumer to choose convience over quality.

Disney, Sony, Paramount, Warner and Sony just completed a study on the feasibility of downloading movies over the internet. According to this report(I just got my copy via email yesterday) the internet as we currently know it would not be able to support mass downloading of movies. Our speeds are too slow, surveys show that people do not watch movies on their computers, and there is no easy way to get a movie from your computer to your television. We are currently stuck at 720p and the studios would like to see that raised to 1080p. Bob Chapek has said that when downloading can look and sound better than disc, and have the same protections as disc, then Disney would give up disc for downloading. We are not even close to that possiblity right now, and they say it would be about a decade before we get there.

[Groundbeef]

Disney, Sony, Paramount, Warner and Sony just completed a study on the feasibility of downloading movies over the internet. According to this report(I just got my copy via email yesterday) the internet as we currently know it would not be able to support mass downloading of movies. Our speeds are too slow, surveys show that people do not watch movies on their computers, and there is no easy way to get a movie from your computer to your television. We are currently stuck at 720p and the studios would like to see that raised to 1080p. Bob Chapek has said that when downloading can look and sound better than disc, and have the same protections as disc, then Disney would give up disc for downloading. We are not even close to that possiblity right now, and they say it would be about a decade before we get there.

Although Disney won't give up disc for downloading, they are toying with downloading. You are able to get some Disney Films on the XBOX Live network.

And, you are correct most people don't watch movies on their computer. Apple TV is somewhat convient, the XBOX 360 is way more convienent (already attached to the TV).

Interestingly enough, just today Sony announced that its going to be launching a service in 2008 to 'rival' Itunes, and Live. We shall see how that works, but it appears Sony is going to try and leverage its many divisions into one unified "network".

[johnny p]

I'm stuck with 720p and compared to my old tube T.V. and bunny ears, it's a big improvment, so as far as the Downloading, Blu Ray vs. HD DVD etc. etc. etc. I have the luxury of an empty wallet preventing me from being a trailblazer in any one new format or technology currentlyon, or in the near future, on the market......

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Although Disney won't give up disc for downloading, they are toying with downloading. You are able to get some Disney Films on the XBOX Live network.

You are correct on this. From what I understand, it isn't doing so well revenue wise for them either.

And, you are correct most people don't watch movies on their computer. Apple TV is somewhat convient, the XBOX 360 is way more convienent (already attached to the TV).

I just read in TV predictions that only about 30% of XBOX360 owners are hooked up to HDTV's. They also stated that only 15% are hooked up to a 5.1 sound system. Those figures are going to have to rise considerable if XBOX live is going to grow in the future, and get the studio to release more content to it.

Interestingly enough, just today Sony announced that its going to be launching a service in 2008 to 'rival' Itunes, and Live. We shall see how that works, but it appears Sony is going to try and leverage its many divisions into one unified "network".

I think it is smart. They have a movie studio, Universal Music is a BR exclusive supporter as is Disney and Fox, I am sure Warner would want to have access to the 3 million PS3 out there. We'll see how that works out.

[JSE]

JSE, P2P traffic is already overloading comcast's system to the point they are slowing down traffic, or cutting P2P entirely through their network. If all of comcast customers suddenly switch to downloading, the internet would be clogged beyond belief.

Exactly!

That's why Comcast and other providers such as AT&T which I use are looking at ways to expand their networks. They see the problem and are going to address it. They have to expand to keep up with technology. It will happen, it's just a issue of how long and how.

What if you hard drive crashed? Generally download sites do not allow you to re-load or replace you movies you lost. So you have to pay for it again. Do you really think consumers will go for that? I don't.

Absolutely they will. The digital imaging revolution IS a perfect example of this. Consumers faced the same thing with digital imaging and that issue barely even registered in cosumer's minds. If you loose the image file, it's gone. People still adopted digital at a record pace. Film has been all but reduce to a niche format now. There are many ways to backup your images today and the same can and is being down with digital music and video files. I have my main hard drive and a 5 other hard drives to backup my work. I also use online storage sites as well as DVDs. None of these are full proof but redundancy provides security. However, the average digital camera user never thinks about file safety and really does not care or does not know enough to care. It's a shame but it's reality. Those of us that do care or earn money from photography take the necessary steps to protect our work.

I do not think the film vs digital revolution is a good comparison. I didn't require any additional capacity to switch from film to disc. It didn't require a consumer to choose convience over quality.

I will assume you are speaking from the providers point of view. That's the only way that statement makes some sense. However, the digital imaging revolution is still a perfect example. When digital cameras first came out, consumers chose convenience over qaulity for several years. It was not until the 5/6MP cameras came out that a digital file could hold up against a film negative in a 4x6 print. That took what? Maybe 4 to 5 years to get to that point? So yes, they absolutely did choose convenience over quality for some time.

Disney, Sony, Paramount, Warner and Sony just completed a study on the feasibility of downloading movies over the internet. According to this report(I just got my copy via email yesterday) the internet as we currently know it would not be able to support mass downloading of movies. Our speeds are too slow, surveys show that people do not watch movies on their computers, and there is no easy way to get a movie from your computer to your television. We are currently stuck at 720p and the studios would like to see that raised to 1080p. Bob Chapek has said that when downloading can look and sound better than disc, and have the same protections as disc, then Disney would give up disc for downloading. We are not even close to that possiblity right now, and they say it would be about a decade before we get there.

I agree with everything except how long it will take to get there. I think it will be much sooner. In the end, it's really not up to the studios. It's really up to the consumer. The studios can take whatever stance they want but it won't slow down progress. Technology will advance and again people will sacrafice some quality for convenience and keep downloading movies. Cable/Sat/Hardware/Software companies will and are seeing this and they will find a way to make it happen. The music companies got their butts handed to them by mp3 and there was not a darn thing they could do about it.

[Woochifer]

Good freaking God. I read this whole thread.

BR, HDDVD....... whatever. They will both be obsolete within 5 years when everything will be able to be obtained online through itune-like providers or cable/sat providers. Within 5 or so years, you will just click on which movie you want and download it, store it on hard drive and be done with it. The film vs. digital revolution in the photography world is a perfect example of this. CD vs. mp3? Same thing. How are CD sales doing lately?

JSE

JSE, you ignorant fool! (tryin' to wriggle a red pill outta 'ya! )

Actually, I used to agree with your point on downloads. But, now I'm a lot more skeptical because all of the movie downloading schemes out there are tied to some form of DRM and/or have an expiration date attached. Because of these limitations, to me downloads are more of a substitute for PPV and rentals. Cable providers already offer PPV and on-demand services, so this is merely an extension of an existing market.

If anything, the DVD transformed the home video market from a rental model to a sell-through model, and this dynamic won't change if the studios continue to saddle down movie downloads by attaching self-destruct dates and not allowing the files to freely transfer between devices.

The music market is different because music has always created a great demand for portability, and it's that demand for having music on the go is what IMO sparked the MP3 revolution. On the audio side, the trend is more towards smaller and more portable. On the video side though, the trend is towards bigger screens and higher resolution. The decline in CD demand has many many factors behind it (the rise of the DVD format being one of them), and not all of them apply to the home video market.

[Woochifer]

Hey! My cheap ploy worked! Ask and ye shall receive! I just noticed that my reputation has moved below the 3-greenie mark! Terrence, that downward race to the 1-greenie reputation is ON!

P.S. I just noticed that the new red pill (geez, received within a minute of my post!) is unsigned. JSE, I thought our intervention had cured you of that anonymous chiclet dealing addiction!

[Groundbeef]

You are correct on this. From what I understand, it isn't doing so well revenue wise for them either. .

Frankly, I'm not really all that suprised. The Disney offerings are "sparce" at best, mostly years old, and certainly not top shelf. Lots of "Aladin 2" and other crap. If they would release some more current Disney films, I think they would be doing better. I think MS wants to capture some of the "youth" video market, but Disney hasn't given them top shelf material.

Most of the other films on Live are current, and better offerings.

I just read in TV predictions that only about 30% of XBOX360 owners are hooked up to HDTV's. They also stated that only 15% are hooked up to a 5.1 sound system. Those figures are going to have to rise considerable if XBOX live is going to grow in the future, and get the studio to release more content to it. .

I would surmise that the numbers are simliar to that for PS3 owners. As much as we (you and I) argue about this topic, I think we could agree on that. I remember reading that approximatly 40% of PS3 owners don't even realize it plays BR movies. After all, Sony didn't include the crappy composite (yellow) video cable for nothing.

I'm not sure if it is requisite though for consumers to be attached to either a HDTV/5.1 sound to d/l movie content though. Granted, the experience (visual and audio) would be better, but not necessary. Just a high speed connection.

I think it is smart. They have a movie studio, Universal Music is a BR exclusive supporter as is Disney and Fox, I am sure Warner would want to have access to the 3 million PS3 out there. We'll see how that works out.

Yes, we shall see. If they can pull it off, it would be a wise move. However, based on some of the recent delays with other PS3 offerings in the online arena I'm not really very optimistic about it. Remeber "Home"? That was supposed to be out 3 quarters ago. They keep pushing back the Beta. That's not a good sign.

[JSE]

Hey! My cheap ploy worked! Ask and ye shall receive! I just noticed that my reputation has moved below the 3-greenie mark! Terrence, that downward race to the 1-greenie reputation is ON!

P.S. I just noticed that the new red pill (geez, received within a minute of my post!) is unsigned. JSE, I thought our intervention had cured you of that anonymous chiclet dealing addiction!

Twas not me! I think I have only given 1 red chicklet our so far and it was to Joe Bialek (sp?). If I ever do give someone a reddy, I will sign it. Plus there are certain people on this board that I would probably never give a red chicklet to becasue I respect them and their point of views (even when they are wrong ) based on my years here. Your one of them BTW.

Anyway, in regard to your prior post,

I can agree with you to a point but I think the industry will change. When is the question. I think it will be sooner than later and that's why I think Blueray and/or HDDVD will diminish in significance within 5 years or so. I don't doubt one of them will become the standard format for a physical product (disc) , I just think the product will take the same path that CDs are now. The sales will dwindle and online downloading will take over once the technology catches up.

[GMichael]

I remember reading that approximatly 40% of PS3 owners don't even realize it plays BR movies. After all, Sony didn't include the crappy composite (yellow) video cable for nothing.
.

My HD-DVD player came the same way. Go figure.

[drseid]

My HD-DVD player came the same way. Go figure.

Yes, agreed... When I gave my parents their HD-A2 I bought them, I had to also include some component cables for their HDTV with it because I noticed it does not come with *those*. How stupid... selling an HD player with only a *composite* cable (no HDMI either).

---Dave