SACD and DVD-A dead, but K2HD is HERE!!!?!!?!?

[Mr Peabody]

SACD may still be in ICU but I think we can safely call DVD-A's time of death. I still see SACD new releases but I haven't seen anything from DVD-A in quite sometime. SACD is still a nitch, it will be interesting to see if HDMI connection will give it more life.

I have one of the Pat Coil discs. I can't remember if the name is Brian's Song or if that's just one of the songs on it. I also have James Newton Howard & Friends which is a must for any music lover. I may have a couple more.

[nightflier]

SACD may still be in ICU but I think we can safely call DVD-A's time of death. I still see SACD new releases but I haven't seen anything from DVD-A in quite sometime. SACD is still a nitch, it will be interesting to see if HDMI connection will give it more life.

Not if the new high def players (BR & HD-DVD) don't support the format. It also looks like a lot of vendors are dropping players with SACD compatibility for some reason.

That said, SACD is definitely in ICU, although I doubt if this new format will sign it's DNR papers. It will probably live on for years in a vegetative state, perhaps as long as classical music survives....

[jrhymeammo]

......................

Do you recommend any specific Jazz CD by Mapleshade Records? From what I've read, if they produced SACD, they could be incredible...

JRA

[nightflier]

Do you recommend any specific Jazz CD by Mapleshade Records? From what I've read, if they produced SACD, they could be incredible...JRA

Mapleshade makes some excellent recordings. I've been very impressed with the quality, although they don't do SACD, XRCD, HDCD, or any of the other acronyms out there except RBCD. But they do it well, the only drawback is that most of the artists are ones that they like and that means pretty much Blues and Jazz. I have all their classical (if you can call it that) CDs, but for Jazz I thought that THE J STREET JUMPERS: Is You Is Or Is You Ain't My Baby (http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/cds/05452.php) and THE REDWINE TRIO: Baby Won’t You Please Come Home (http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/cds/10632.php) are very well recorded. It's not Coltrane or Coleman type jazz, but it's well done.

[Woochifer]

Not if the new high def players (BR & HD-DVD) don't support the format. It also looks like a lot of vendors are dropping players with SACD compatibility for some reason.

That said, SACD is definitely in ICU, although I doubt if this new format will sign it's DNR papers. It will probably live on for years in a vegetative state, perhaps as long as classical music survives....

At this point, all I care about is Sony keeping their hybrid CD/SACD production lines up and running long enough for the SF Symphony to release the final two discs in their Mahler series.

The SFS started recording the Mahler cycle the day after 9/11 (that monumental performance of the "Tragic" Sixth Symphony won the symphonic performance Grammy in 2003), and they recorded the unfinished Tenth Symphony and short songs last fall. But, they don't plan to record the epic Eighth (Symphony of a Thousand) until 2009, and they usually wait at least a year before releasing the discs.

Given that they went through the trouble of recording and mixing all the performances in multichannel DSD and already released the other eight Mahler symphonies in 5.1 SACD, it would be a shame if the final release was limited to two-channel CD.

SACD's flatlining, but I doubt that K2HD will have any part of further deep sixing the format, given that JVC's K2 releases (i.e. XRCD and XRCD2) have been around longer than either DVD-A or SACD.

[pixelthis]

At this point, all I care about is Sony keeping their hybrid CD/SACD production lines up and running long enough for the SF Symphony to release the final two discs in their Mahler series.

The SFS started recording the Mahler cycle the day after 9/11 (that monumental performance of the "Tragic" Sixth Symphony won the symphonic performance Grammy in 2003), and they recorded the unfinished Tenth Symphony and short songs last fall. But, they don't plan to record the epic Eighth (Symphony of a Thousand) until 2009, and they usually wait at least a year before releasing the discs.

Given that they went through the trouble of recording and mixing all the performances in multichannel DSD and already released the other eight Mahler symphonies in 5.1 SACD, it would be a shame if the final release was limited to two-channel CD.

SACD's flatlining, but I doubt that K2HD will have any part of further deep sixing the format, given that JVC's K2 releases (i.e. XRCD and XRCD2) have been around longer than either DVD-A or SACD.

One thing that might help SACD is that Sony set out to make it an archival format,
also its something completely different, not just another PCM codec.
it actually makes a sine wave with ones and zeros.
What really irks me is that all of the so called "audiophiles" have been trashing
redbook for years, heres an authenic hi-fidelity format and they stay away in droves

[Mr Peabody]

So far I have only seen BR & HD-DVD doing CD. I got into a conversation on a thread whether SACD could even go through HDMI. Doing some research it looks like it will. If the new HD units aren't going to support it, I wonder if any SACD players have HDMI, surely some of the universal players do.

[Mr Peabody]

I am getting a little confidence boost for Blu-ray as I am starting to see disc drives and burners show up on the market. I wonder if MS has gotten anyone to include the HD-DVD in their computer yet? A computer manufacturer has it easy, all they have to do is offer either one as a add on feature.

[Woochifer]

I am getting a little confidence boost for Blu-ray as I am starting to see disc drives and burners show up on the market. I wonder if MS has gotten anyone to include the HD-DVD in their computer yet? A computer manufacturer has it easy, all they have to do is offer either one as a add on feature.

Rumor has it that HD-DVD support will be built into the upcoming service pack for Windows Vista. Whether that has any impact, who knows. Blu-ray and HD-DVD OEM drives have been out for a while now. I just don't get the sense that there's a whole lot of interest right now (no different than when DVD drives first started arriving on the market). Plus, Dell and HP already offer optional Blu-ray drives, and Sony just announced an all-in-one iMac knockoff with the option for a built-in Blu-ray recorder. Toshiba previously announced that they would add HD-DVD drives to all of their notebook models starting next year.

[bobsticks]

Rumor has it that HD-DVD support will be built into the upcoming service pack for Windows Vista. Whether that has any impact, who knows. Blu-ray and HD-DVD OEM drives have been out for a while now. I just don't get the sense that there's a whole lot of interest right now (no different than when DVD drives first started arriving on the market). Plus, Dell and HP already offer optional Blu-ray drives, and Sony just announced an all-in-one iMac knockoff with the option for a built-in Blu-ray recorder. Toshiba previously announced that they would add HD-DVD drives to all of their notebook models starting next year.

I heard a rumor today that a significant portion of the computers released next year will have HD-DVD drives. Again, this was an unsubstantiated report but one from someone I consider at least marginally intelligent. That would be an interesting marketing ploy and given the nature of consumer dollars spent on home theater items and the current state of the economy, maybe a wise choice on the part of Toshiba/Microsoft.

[Woochifer]

I heard a rumor today that a significant portion of the computers released next year will have HD-DVD drives. Again, this was an unsubstantiated report but one from someone I consider at least marginally intelligent. That would be an interesting marketing ploy and given the nature of consumer dollars spent on home theater items and the current state of the economy, maybe a wise choice on the part of Toshiba/Microsoft.

It's no rumor. Toshiba has already announced that all of their laptop computers will come with HD-DVD drives starting sometime next year. It's an interesting marketing push, but I'm not sure how much of an effect this will have on the format war.

[Mr Peabody]

I don't think you can say audiophiles stayed away from SACD. Most high end manufacturers either went to all universal players or at least offer a full line of them. And, the titles that are on SACD, for the most part, weren't picked for the masses. Almost every audio manufacturer offers something that will play SACD.

Music disc sales are way down in general, so when you combine that with SACD's additional cost and limited selection, you have, what you have.

It also seems like those behind SACD just quit with the thrust. I haven't revisited SACD in a long while but you'd think with it's potential the sound quality improvement would be more noticeable against redbook players in the same price range. Maybe they should have put a couple killer SACD stand alone players on the market rather than stuffing everything into a universal player. After DVD player manufacturers being forced to include CD playback in the player and the manufacturers then putting the cheapest thing possible in to meet that need, I am leary of universal players. I may be wrong but I am of the mind set that you should do just one job and do it to the best of it's ability.

[pixelthis]

I don't think you can say audiophiles stayed away from SACD. Most high end manufacturers either went to all universal players or at least offer a full line of them. And, the titles that are on SACD, for the most part, weren't picked for the masses. Almost every audio manufacturer offers something that will play SACD.

Music disc sales are way down in general, so when you combine that with SACD's additional cost and limited selection, you have, what you have.

It also seems like those behind SACD just quit with the thrust. I haven't revisited SACD in a long while but you'd think with it's potential the sound quality improvement would be more noticeable against redbook players in the same price range. Maybe they should have put a couple killer SACD stand alone players on the market rather than stuffing everything into a universal player. After DVD player manufacturers being forced to include CD playback in the player and the manufacturers then putting the cheapest thing possible in to meet that need, I am leary of universal players. I may be wrong but I am of the mind set that you should do just one job and do it to the best of it's ability.

Right about that, but its just not feasible for some.
A CD, DVD, AND a SACD player would just cost too much.
AND there was plenty of support from manufacurers, sure, but with limited mainstream support, a format like SACD needs the support of most ALL audiophiles.
And too many stayed with their records.
Sacd is a true high quality sound source, answering many of the complaints that some have against redbook, which is why some stayed with turntables.
Well, give em something better than redbook and they STILL stayed with their turntables.
I loved all of the turntables I had before the advent of CD, here was something that beat cassettes, radio, you name it, and the setting up was an art form itself.
But CD is better, and sacd even better.
I really think that all of those that grew up with turntables as the main deal will have to die out before it actually starts to fade away, kinda like the straight shift sports car

[PeruvianSkies]

Right about that, but its just not feasible for some.
A CD, DVD, AND a SACD player would just cost too much.
AND there was plenty of support from manufacurers, sure, but with limited mainstream support, a format like SACD needs the support of most ALL audiophiles.
And too many stayed with their records.
Sacd is a true high quality sound source, answering many of the complaints that some have against redbook, which is why some stayed with turntables.
Well, give em something better than redbook and they STILL stayed with their turntables.
I loved all of the turntables I had before the advent of CD, here was something that beat cassettes, radio, you name it, and the setting up was an art form itself.
But CD is better, and sacd even better.
I really think that all of those that grew up with turntables as the main deal will have to die out before it actually starts to fade away, kinda like the straight shift sports car

You're throwing rocks at the vinyl hornets nest, better hope there is some water nearby before you get stung.

[pixelthis]

You're throwing rocks at the vinyl hornets nest, better hope there is some water nearby before you get stung.

The truth always hurts

[Chas Underhay]

Greetings Gentlemen

I remember being involved in some lively discussion here three of four years ago about Hi Rez formats. I had no faith then in SACD or DVD-A surviving but even I was supprised at how quickly they both died out.

There are just not enough audiophiles out there to support any Hi Rez format. In my opinion CD is here to stay for the forseeable future. Yeah, sure sales will slow because of downloads etc but CD is too well established to die out. Everybody in the civilised world probably has a minimum of three CD players; 1 in the stereo, 1 in their computer and 1 in their car. Also probably a couple of portable ones as well. If Vinyl won't die, then nor will CD.

But what of the future? Well it's already been with us for about the last ten years; Yep DVD-V! I know there are Hi Rez format wars there but Joe Public is unlikely to be very interested so standard DVD-V is also here to stay.

The world has changed, try finding a proper Hi-Fi shop these days, it's all something or other sound and vision. Few people buy a Hi-Fi set anymore they all have home cinemas.

A lot of people don't even bother to buy a cheap stereo anymore and just have a TV and a DVD player that they play all of their music on. If they have freeview, cable or satelite; they have a radio tuner thrown in.

So what possibilities are there for the future? Good quality DVD-V music is the one I'd have faith in ! I know music videos have been around for a long time but I think it is a largely untapped market. What better format for opera lovers? All the operatic works released on DVD-V would make even the most devoted vinyl fan rush out buy them as fast as they became available.

As far as I know, the sales of music DVDs are increasing over the years (I think it is the only standard format that is) but in the past there have been three problems with music video. 1. Poor choice of material. 2. Poor to medeocre production. 3. Insufficient numbers of people had an A/V type system. Item 3 is being addressed at a rate of knots so it has to be a music marketing man's dream.

[Mr Peabody]

Wooch, have you seen the Ford commercials advertising all the new models will have HD radio tuners. BMW has similar commercials but I didn't hear how many models.

I could only imagine the sound of mp3 until I got one and I cannot emphasize enough how disappointing the sound was. It's alright to take on my bus commute, there's not much other choice except for FM but it is horrible through a good stereo system and I suspect equally as bad through good car audio. The Lossy is probably better but I haven't the space or player to accept it now. Interesting battle, quality vs convenience. Convenience always seems to win. I'd love to see why people are getting back into vinyl. I suspect it's just a fad but maybe there will be some new consistent supporters.

[Woochifer]

Wooch, have you seen the Ford commercials advertising all the new models will have HD radio tuners. BMW has similar commercials but I didn't hear how many models.

Have not seen that at all! I'd only heard about Hyundai adding HD Radio tuners in 08, but nothing about Ford. If HD Radio's coming to Ford, that's very good news for the format given that hundreds of stations have already begun broadcasting in HD Radio. I've been saying all along that adoption of HD Radio will depend on adoption in the mobile audio market, and with the OEM market in particular.

But, unfortunately I doubt that HD Radio will fully live up to its promise of CD quality sound since many commercial radio stations have gone to digital music servers (presumably using lossy music files) and if the digital broadcast uses the same feed as the one that goes to the analog transmitter, then the audio itself will be heavily compressed and processed. I think the radio broadcasters see HD Radio more as an avenue by which to add to their existing content through HD Radio's multicasting feature.

I could only imagine the sound of mp3 until I got one and I cannot emphasize enough how disappointing the sound was. It's alright to take on my bus commute, there's not much other choice except for FM but it is horrible through a good stereo system and I suspect equally as bad through good car audio. The Lossy is probably better but I haven't the space or player to accept it now. Interesting battle, quality vs convenience. Convenience always seems to win. I'd love to see why people are getting back into vinyl. I suspect it's just a fad but maybe there will be some new consistent supporters.

With MP3 players, the memory capacity of the newer models is astounding (up to 160 GB on the new iPod Classic), which makes it very feasible to now use lossless audio formats or totally uncompressed PCM files.

On the whole, I think it's more than quality v. convenience -- you also have price to consider as well. Honestly, I don't think that the mass market has ever embraced quality as the first consideration. Before today's mini-systems and iPod docking speakers, you had boom boxes and all-in-one compact systems (if you were lucky, you got one that could record your LPs onto cassettes AND 8-tracks!). Difference is that today's cheap audio systems sound a LOT better than the low end systems of yesteryear.

As much as audiophiles like to glorify the analog/vinyl era, they forget that in the LP's heyday, most people played their vinyl on horrible sounding record players that brutalized your ears and records alike. Remember those "portable" record changers with the stack spindles and unbalanced tonearms with snap-in spherical stylii and just enough space on the headshell to tape a penny onto it so that it would track a warped record? Ick!

I don't think there's anymore of a vinyl revival today than there was in the early-90s when all those grunge bands began demanding that their albums get released on vinyl. The only difference is that now vinyl is marketed as a premium niche format, rather than a mass market format, and the pricing on new LPs reflects that. Any comeback is simply businesses figuring out how to make money selling vinyl as a low volume, high margin product.

This is a marked change from 15 years ago when the LP was a declining yet still low cost format (back then LPs were priced the same as cassettes, and CDs typically cost about $5 more). In the mid-80s, even after getting a CD player, I still mostly bought LPs primarily because they were a lot cheaper, and for my Walkman and car stereo, I still needed to dub everything to cassette anyway! Plus, at that time, LP collections were getting dumped right and left, which created a treasure trove of used LPs in fantastic condition.

Nowadays, you really have to be dedicated in order to get into vinyl. In a way, it's much more appealing to hobbyists because unlike with digital formats and amplification upgrades, vinyl has so much more variation and ways of working the sound. And unlike with cabling, CD player tweaking, and other sometimes dubious modern day audiophile upgrades, tweaking with a turntable (+cartridge+stylus+tonearm+phono preamp) provides very obvious and often compelling improvements in sound quality. Reasons for getting into vinyl might be something as simple as people wanting better bang for the buck whenever they invest in system upgrades.

[Feanor]

...

Nowadays, you really have to be dedicated in order to get into vinyl. In a way, it's much more appealing to hobbyists because unlike with digital formats and amplification upgrades, vinyl has so much more variation and ways of working the sound. And unlike with cabling, CD player tweaking, and other sometimes dubious modern day audiophile upgrades, tweaking with a turntable (+cartridge+stylus+tonearm+phono preamp) provides very obvious and often compelling improvements in sound quality. Reasons for getting into vinyl might be something as simple as people wanting better bang for the buck whenever they invest in system upgrades.

Of course, there's the equipment hobbist aspect and there's no accounting for that. And I know about that: recently I bought a couple of used rangefinder film cameras and a few lenses. What was I thinking Fun, but not for serious photography in this day-and-age. After a couple of weeks fooling around I wish I'd put the cash to the much more useful new digital I'd like.

Same thing with vinyl. It can sound good, but it's not were the music is for most people, certainly not for me, mainly a classical listener. Of course, if you have a large vinyl collection, analog updates might be very worth while, but it's perplexing to me that people who don't already have an LP collection would want to get into it.

Worse, it's impeding the replacement of the CD, granted, a less than optimal medium. SACD and DVD-A are really significant improvements, not so much for the hi-rez but for multichannel. But SACD, DVD-A, and LP are all niche products and will stay that way. Of the three, surely LP is the least good and the least practical.

[pixelthis]

Wooch, have you seen the Ford commercials advertising all the new models will have HD radio tuners. BMW has similar commercials but I didn't hear how many models.

I could only imagine the sound of mp3 until I got one and I cannot emphasize enough how disappointing the sound was. It's alright to take on my bus commute, there's not much other choice except for FM but it is horrible through a good stereo system and I suspect equally as bad through good car audio. The Lossy is probably better but I haven't the space or player to accept it now. Interesting battle, quality vs convenience. Convenience always seems to win. I'd love to see why people are getting back into vinyl. I suspect it's just a fad but maybe there will be some new consistent supporters.

What ticks me off is that there are two "lossless" codecs, FLAC and APE.
But the only portable players offering playback are chinese models.
However they are great for putting music on a server or a computer.
The sound is exelent and the file size is smaller than wave

[Mr Peabody]

I don't think we can deny there is a turntable resurgence. There have been a lot of new products catering to that surge. It's crazy the price of new vinyl, even though most of it is 180 to 200 gram, and some 45 rpm, I still don't think it warrants that much money. If I had my Rega back when CD came out I sure wouldn't have been so quick to jump to CD. I was truely amazed when I heard my first good turntable.

[Woochifer]

I don't think we can deny there is a turntable resurgence. There have been a lot of new products catering to that surge. It's crazy the price of new vinyl, even though most of it is 180 to 200 gram, and some 45 rpm, I still don't think it warrants that much money. If I had my Rega back when CD came out I sure wouldn't have been so quick to jump to CD. I was truely amazed when I heard my first good turntable.

I don't think it's a resurgence so much as a game of musical chairs. In the high end market, the turntable never went away, but in the entry level markets it's almost a completely different cast of characters. The big difference in the turntable market is that nearly all of the mass market players have completely abandoned marketing turntables. The entry level decks from the likes of Music Hall and ProJect simply occupy price points that mass market companies like Pioneer, Dual, Garrard, Kenwood, and Yamaha used to. But, just because some new smaller companies stepped into a market void created by the consumer electronics giants when they abandoned the market, does not mean that the overall market for turntables has grown.

You're right about the pricing on new vinyl, and I think that's indicative of vinyl's transformation from a low cost mainstream format into a high cost niche format. A lot of new companies putting out vinyl reissues, but again, they are stepping into a market largely abandoned by the major players. The major labels nowadays issue LPs as limited editions that only remain in print for one production run. Anyone who wants an older title needs to either hunt down a used copy or hope that one of the smaller specialty vinyl houses reissues that title (albeit at those ridiculously high prices).

I'm not saying it doesn't exist but I have yet to hear a SACD that showed a noticeable improvement over redbook. This is difficult to compare anyway, I don't trust universal players to put emphasis on good CD playback and would it be apples and apples to put a similar priced SACD against a similar priced CD.

The challenge is finding an appropriate comparison set. Surprised that you have yet to hear a SACD with a noticeable improvement over a CD version, because they're out there. In most cases, the improved mastering alone on the SACD reissue will result in a noticeable sound quality improvement. A good comparison would be with some of Mobile Fidelity's releases, which takes great care in all facets of the mastering chain and uses the same master sources for both the CD and SACD layers. In the titles that I own, the SACD layer provides a subtle but very noteworthy sound quality improvement over the CD layer.

CD sure kicked vinyl out of the mainstream. CD just has, or had, a strong hold and SACD nor DVD-A offered anything much better. The lack of studio support I'd say was the largest share of the blame.

Actually, the cassette format had already supplanted vinyl as the dominant music format by the time the CD arrived on the scene. If anything, the CD merely finished off the LP as a mainstream format, and proceeded to knock out the cassette format as well.

If mainstream music buyers had already decided that the cassette format was "good enough" and turned their back on vinyl before the CD's arrival, then it would stand to reason that the CD would also be "good enough" once SACD and DVD-A arrived. IMO, the only chance that those high res formats had at any success was to emphasize the multichannel capability (since most new audio systems are now multichannel), and add value to existing CD releases by standardizing around the CD/SACD hybrid format or hitch the CD to the DVD bandwagon by including video and multichannel content to CD releases (and do it better than DualDisc did).

So it doesn't sound like you'd recommend that I should run out and buy a SACD player then?

Don't get me wrong, I love SACD. It's a great format that delivers outstanding sound quality and multichannel capability for not a whole lot of money. Whether or not you should run out and get a player depends on whether there are any titles out there that you absolutely must hear in SACD. For example, if you absolutely must have Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon in 5.1 multichannel sound, then need a SACD player. Best thing to do is look over the list of SACD titles that have come out, and see if there are enough essential SACD titles to justify investing in new hardware. Just be aware that not a whole lot of new SACD releases are coming out, and titles that have already come out might be difficult to find.

For me, the whole reason for investing in a SACD player was because I wanted to hear the SF Symphony's Mahler series in its full resolution multichannel glory. Once I heard how great the CD layers on those releases sound, I absolutely had to hear how the accompanying SACD tracks wound sound (and FYI, the multichannel SACD tracks in particular sound incredible). Even if I did not buy any other SACDs, having that particular series in multichannel SACD was worth the hardware investment. Plus, the combo DAC used in many SACD players also does an excellent job with standard CDs.

However, there seem to be several formats and all bar one need to disappear before it can become fully successful. Remembe Betamax? I also think that SACD would have stood a lot more chance of surviving if DVD-A hadn't been around.

I don't think in this case it was the format war, so much as a combination of factors that sunk SACD and DVD-A, not the least of which was the collective yawn that these formats elicited from the buying public. I think the only chance that SACD had at achieving any significant market share would have been for Sony and Universal Music to standardize their releases around the CD/SACD hybrid format. Basically, make SACD a value-added enhancement to the CD format, and emphasize the multichannel feature. Make it so that buyers get SACD capability with their CDs, and retailers don't have to maintain dual inventories. This never happened, and SACD (and DVD-A) had to sink or swim on their own to a largely indifferent buying public that cares more about portability.

[Feanor]

I don't think it's a resurgence so much as a game of musical chairs. In the high end market, the turntable never went away, but in the entry level markets it's almost a completely different cast of characters. The big difference in the turntable market is that nearly all of the mass market players have completely abandoned marketing turntables. The entry level decks from the likes of Music Hall and ProJect simply occupy price points that mass market companies like Pioneer, Dual, Garrard, Kenwood, and Yamaha used to. But, just because some new smaller companies stepped into a market void created by the consumer electronics giants when they abandoned the market, does not mean that the overall market for turntables has grown.

You're right about the pricing on new vinyl, and I think that's indicative of vinyl's transformation from a low cost mainstream format into a high cost niche format. A lot of new companies putting out vinyl reissues, but again, they are stepping into a market largely abandoned by the major players. The major labels nowadays issue LPs as limited editions that only remain in print for one production run. Anyone who wants an older title needs to either hunt down a used copy or hope that one of the smaller specialty vinyl houses reissues that title (albeit at those ridiculously high prices).
...

If mainstream music buyers had already decided that the cassette format was "good enough" and turned their back on vinyl before the CD's arrival, then it would stand to reason that the CD would also be "good enough" once SACD and DVD-A arrived. IMO, the only chance that those high res formats had at any success was to emphasize the multichannel capability (since most new audio systems are now multichannel), and add value to existing CD releases by standardizing around the CD/SACD hybrid format or hitch the CD to the DVD bandwagon by including video and multichannel content to CD releases (and do it better than DualDisc did).
...

For me, the whole reason for investing in a SACD player was because I wanted to hear the SF Symphony's Mahler series in its full resolution multichannel glory. Once I heard how great the CD layers on those releases sound, I absolutely had to hear how the accompanying SACD tracks wound sound (and FYI, the multichannel SACD tracks in particular sound incredible). Even if I did not buy any other SACDs, having that particular series in multichannel SACD was worth the hardware investment. Plus, the combo DAC used in many SACD players also does an excellent job with standard CDs.
...

I don't think in this case it was the format war, so much as a combination of factors that sunk SACD and DVD-A, not the least of which was the collective yawn that these formats elicited from the buying public. I think the only chance that SACD had at achieving any significant market share would have been for Sony and Universal Music to standardize their releases around the CD/SACD hybrid format. Basically, make SACD a value-added enhancement to the CD format, and emphasize the multichannel feature. Make it so that buyers get SACD capability with their CDs, and retailers don't have to maintain dual inventories. This never happened, and SACD (and DVD-A) had to sink or swim on their own to a largely indifferent buying public that cares more about portability.

I don't know what we'd do without Wooch's insight. Who brings the relevant facts together to paint the big picture together better than him, eh? EH? Nobody.

We need to understand that LP and Hi-rez are both niche products. SACD might have gone mainstream if Sony/Universal had made it a "a value-added enhancement to the CD format", as Wooch suggests. Unfortunately, and to the HUGE deteriment of audiophilia, it was never Sony's intention for it to do so; rather they wanted to create another niche product. Let me repeat for emphasis: Sony never wanted SACD to go mainstream, (in any case not 'till they'd skimmed the high-end market for a decade at least).

What they didn't count on was the attitude of audophile traditionalists with their irrational hatred of everything digital -- and their investment of thousands $$ invested in LPs and playback equipment. But vinyl will never become a vibrant force contrary to the dreams of the traditionalists and hobbiests: it will never again be more than niche product, (a zombie of its former self). What really appalls me is that (younger) people without existing LP collections want get into vinyl. It is an offense to common sense.

[Woochifer]

We need to understand that LP and Hi-rez are both niche products. SACD might have gone mainstream if Sony/Universal had made it a "a value-added enhancement to the CD format", as Wooch suggests. Unfortunately, and to the HUGE deteriment of audiophilia, it was never Sony's intention for it to do so; rather they wanted to create another niche product. Let me repeat for emphasis: Sony never wanted SACD to go mainstream, (in any case not 'till they'd skimmed the high-end market for a decade at least).

I think the problem is that Sony never could figure out what they wanted to do with SACD. Sometimes it seemed that their hardware and software divisions were on different planets. At first SACDs were priced around $30 and could only do two-channel, and then they went multichannel, and then the prices were rolled back to $20 (~$15 street price). The hardware has been similarly confusing -- at first, the players cost more than $1,000, then they migrated all the way down to their $150 CD changers and DVD players. Sony even included SACD playback on their HTIB systems and the PS3, yet they have excluded SACD playback from their Blu-ray players. Strange.

Sony and Universal thought that the best way to market SACD was to initially issue the discs on single-layer discs that could not be played on a regular CD player! This required retailers to set aside separate sections, and consumers to specifically seek out the SACD versions, which would in all likelihood be difficult to track down. Right from the outset, they put all kinds of market constraints on SACD and made it difficult on even the most ardent supporters of the format.

The smaller labels like Chesky, Concord Jazz, and Telarc had it figured out fairly early when they standardized their new releases on hybrid CD/SACD discs. No need for dual inventories or market confusion, they simply put everything together on one disc and allowed consumers to pick and choose how they wanted to listen. When I finally tracked down a copy of the "Le Sacre du Printemps" CD/SACD release by the LA Philharmonic, the last thing I needed was to check the case to see if I'd found the CD or SACD version! (BTW, this disc is a sonic wonder and ferocious performance by the LA Phil, and it's the first recording from the LA Phil's much acclaimed Disney Hall ... this review says it all)

What they didn't count on was the attitude of audophile traditionalists with their irrational hatred of everything digital -- and their investment of thousands $$ invested in LPs and playback equipment. But vinyl will never become a vibrant force contrary to the dreams of the traditionalists and hobbiests: it will never again be more than niche product, (a zombie of its former self). What really appalls me is that (younger) people without existing LP collections want get into vinyl. It is an offense to common sense.

I think it's more a grudging acceptance of the CD format, which has evolved and matured as producers and engineers figured out how to record and master around the format. If anything, many audiophiles have now invested a huge amount of money into their digital chain -- the transport, DAC, cabling, isolation, etc. The last thing they want to hear about is a new higher resolution format that can deliver stunning audio quality out of a $150 player. Not only that but I think there's a prejudicial attitude about multichannel in general among a lot of audiophiles. Anything that supports multichannel is summarily dismissed out of hand.

It's more than ironic what a large segment of the vinyl market has turned into. When I was in college, I stuck with vinyl because it was inexpensive and a lot of the music I listened to was still unavailable on CD. I invested in a decent turntable and cartridge because I had a large vinyl collection and wanted to optimize the audio quality to the degree that I could.

For a college student today, you're right, it now makes a lot less sense to get into vinyl precisely because it can be a very expensive hobby. Unlike CD players, which can at least guarantee a certain minimum level of performance, entry level turntables and (especially) cartridges can sound pretty bad. A turntable/cartridge rig that properly demonstrates the virtues of vinyl doesn't come cheap, and there's a learning curve in how to tweak with the turntable for optimal performance.

Add to the hardware cost, you got the cost of new LPs, which are across the board more expensive than new CDs -- the exact opposite situation from when I was collecting vinyl as a college student. Although it's still possible to stretch the music budget by buying used vinyl, I've noted that quality used vinyl (i.e., properly cataloged, decent condition, not just thrown into a bin for everyone to sort through, etc.) is also creeping up there in cost. A lot of the lower priced used LPs I've tried recently are not in very good condition.

Also, for someone who's not used to vinyl, the idiosyncrasies of the format will take some getting used to (e.g., all of the maintenance rituals, keeping the LPs away from heat and sun, the need to keep the turntable isolated, dealing with warped records, etc.). On top of that, vinyl is primarily a non-portable format, meaning that you usually listen to it wherever the turntable is setup. All of these rituals and mobility constraints seem to run contrary to what younger listeners are used to and expect.

I guess it's a good thing to satisfy a curiosity, but considering the level of dedication required to maintain a vinyl rig, I just wonder how many of the younger people who claim to "prefer" vinyl will actually stick with it or even invest in the format with their wallets in the first place.

[pixelthis]

It is a chore to keep a vinyl rig going but worth it for the most part, at least to someone who has been in it his whole life, and who already has a decent collection.
But I disagree about turntables, haven't listened to many lately, a music hall at tweeter,
etc, but I have two technics turntables, one belt and one direct drive that sound great.
If one bought a decent used platter it could be a rewarding experience.
One thing I HAVE always given to the vinyl crowd, delicate treble seems better on records
(but on balance digital is better)
DIGITAL DID TO RECORDINGS what FM did to radio, basically