Is BR as a audio format already dead?

[Mr Peabody]

I half heard a DJ talking about this today at work, I'm hoping some one might know what I'm talking about. I missed the name of the technology but he said that a CD can be heard at near Master quality and can be played on existing playback equipment. I wondered if he might have been talking about the existing discs made by JVC and others but he mentioned the technology was new and I never heard the other formats claim "near master" quality. I know this is vague and I apologize, I can't even remember the name of the discs JVC makes. I know we had a thread on these discs at some point. I wanted to throw the idea out though to see if anyone else has gotten wind of such a thing.

[bobsticks]

He may have meant DVD-Audio some layers (although not the most revealing) from which can be played with a standard DVD player. DVD-Audio is deader than the proverbial doornail.

[Mr Peabody]

I don't think it was that. What brought it up was a new album release which I also missed.

[Monkey Mouse]

This person is probably speaking about DSD recording, which is available on some high end stand along audio recorders (Korg makes some) and usually runs on flash cards, mini hard drives, or DVD discs.

[Mr Peabody]

I'm going to email the jock to see if I can find out what he was talking about.

[audio amateur]

Blu Ray is DEAD!

[Ajani]

Is Blu Ray seriously attempting to release Audio only discs? Like SACD/DVD-A? Is the market even looking for another audio disc format?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Is Blu Ray seriously attempting to release Audio only discs? Like SACD/DVD-A? Is the market even looking for another audio disc format?

Bluray isn't trying to do anything. Some independent music producers are creating audio only bluray disc that apparently some folks are VERY interested in. They are typically 24/96khz or 24/192khz Dts MA losslessm TrueHD, and PCM recording in two channel through 7.1.

I never thought anyone would be interested in these, but I was definately wrong about that. The bluray platform is perfect for high resolution recording, and apparently they are selling pretty well according to Lindberg Lyd, a independent producer out of Norway, and a frequent visitor to Bluray.com

I am going to be reviewing Divertimenti - TrondheimSolistene one of Lyd titles and Greigs Piano Concerto, Symphonic Dances in Autumn, Mozarts The Magic Flute, and Natures Color featuring the Worlds greatest Music for Bluray.com as soon as we get the review copies.

With DVD-A pretty much dead, and SACD slow flow of titles, a lot of folks are looking at Bluray specs and how many players are currently out there, and taking a big interest in releasing audio only titles.

Late last year I was the lead Engineer on two productions that will be released to Bluray later this year. One is the Planets, the other is Mozart's Requiem.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I half heard a DJ talking about this today at work, I'm hoping some one might know what I'm talking about. I missed the name of the technology but he said that a CD can be heard at near Master quality and can be played on existing playback equipment. I wondered if he might have been talking about the existing discs made by JVC and others but he mentioned the technology was new and I never heard the other formats claim "near master" quality. I know this is vague and I apologize, I can't even remember the name of the discs JVC makes. I know we had a thread on these discs at some point. I wanted to throw the idea out though to see if anyone else has gotten wind of such a thing.

He could be talking about DXD technology. However the redbook spec limits any CD to 16bit 44.1khz sample rate, DXD is 24/352.1khz. I do not think the CD would even be close to master quality under this scenario.

[Feanor]

Bluray isn't trying to do anything. Some independent music producers are creating audio only bluray disc that apparently some folks are VERY interested in. They are typically 24/96khz or 24/192khz Dts MA losslessm TrueHD, and PCM recording in two channel through 7.1.

I never thought anyone would be interested in these, but I was definately wrong about that. The bluray platform is perfect for high resolution recording, and apparently they are selling pretty well according to Lindberg Lyd, a independent producer out of Norway, and a frequent visitor to Bluray.com
...

With DVD-A pretty much dead, and SACD slow flow of titles, a lot of folks are looking at Bluray specs and how many players are currently out there, and taking a big interest in releasing audio only titles.
...

I would have thought "With DVD-A pretty much dead, and SACD's slow flow of titles" there would be less, not more, interest in BluRay audio-only titles.

I'm a big supporter of (the concept of) hi-rez multi-channel. If SACD is as moribund as it's made out to be, I'd like to believe there is a successor. Please, Sir. T, convince me of why BluRay might succeed where DVD-A and SACD have failed?

Let's remember that audiophiles are irretrievably hung up on vinyl. They will go to their graves clinging to their musty, crusty LPs, (and the sooner the better).

[Ajani]

Bluray isn't trying to do anything. Some independent music producers are creating audio only bluray disc that apparently some folks are VERY interested in. They are typically 24/96khz or 24/192khz Dts MA losslessm TrueHD, and PCM recording in two channel through 7.1.

I never thought anyone would be interested in these, but I was definately wrong about that. The bluray platform is perfect for high resolution recording, and apparently they are selling pretty well according to Lindberg Lyd, a independent producer out of Norway, and a frequent visitor to Bluray.com

I am going to be reviewing Divertimenti - TrondheimSolistene one of Lyd titles and Greigs Piano Concerto, Symphonic Dances in Autumn, Mozarts The Magic Flute, and Natures Color featuring the Worlds greatest Music for Bluray.com as soon as we get the review copies.

With DVD-A pretty much dead, and SACD slow flow of titles, a lot of folks are looking at Bluray specs and how many players are currently out there, and taking a big interest in releasing audio only titles.

Late last year I was the lead Engineer on two productions that will be released to Bluray later this year. One is the Planets, the other is Mozart's Requiem.

That is interesting.... I'll be interested to see if any of the established high-end audio brands start producing Bluray/Bluray Compatible audio players. If the format catches on (and that's a very big IF) I could imagine a company like Marantz (which is just scheduled to release their first Bluray player this summer) introducing a Bluray audio player as part of its reference audio line.

[Ajani]

I would have thought "With DVD-A pretty much dead, and SACD's slow flow of titles" there would be less, not more, interest in BluRay audio-only titles.

I'm a big supporter of (the concept of) hi-rez multi-channel. If SACD is as moribund as it's made out to be, I'd like to believe there is a successor. Please, Sir. T, convince me of why BluRay might succeed where DVD-A and SACD have failed?

Let's remember that audiophiles are irretrievably hung up on vinyl. They will go to their graves clinging to their musty, crusty LPs, (and the sooner the better).

LOL.... I don't see why there would be a large market for Bluray Audio either, but it would be nice if it caught on. Actually I'd prefer high resolution downloads, but Bluray Audio would be a nice start...

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I would have thought "With DVD-A pretty much dead, and SACD's slow flow of titles" there would be less, not more, interest in BluRay audio-only titles.

I'm a big supporter of (the concept of) hi-rez multi-channel. If SACD is as moribund as it's made out to be, I'd like to believe there is a successor. Please, Sir. T, convince me of why BluRay might succeed where DVD-A and SACD have failed?

Let's remember that audiophiles are irretrievably hung up on vinyl. They will go to their graves clinging to their musty, crusty LPs, (and the sooner the better).

Not all audiophiles are stuck on vinyl. Some were ardent supporters of DVD-A and SACD. There just was not enough of them, and the material released on both of these formats didn't attract the interest of quite a few folks. Good technology, no marketing, and no great titles in numbers. That is what killed them both, along with the changing way folks listened to music.

I cannot really convince anyone of why bluray might succeed or not. Its really too early to tell if it will on that level or not. What I do know is that there are alot of independent producers interested in the bluray format, most have already produced in SACD and DVD-A, and want another format to release their high quality masters to. I know personally I have heard from Michael Tilson Thomas of the San Francisco Symphony who is interested, and Gerard Schwarz of the Seattle Symphony who has inquired about recording in DXD and releasing to the bluray format.

While SACD title release has slowed quite a bit, and Sony has backed away from supporting SACD, third party recording companies and a couple of manufacturers have continued work on SACD. DXD is the latest developement for SACD, DSD, and PCM for that matter. It allows high resolution editing without loss, and has actually more resolution than DSD itself

[ldgibson76]

School 'em, "Sir T"!

We should refer to you as "The Oracle of all things Blu ray!"

Holla!

[Woochifer]

Sounds like yet another reference to JVC's K2HD (and before that XRCD and XRCD2) releases. That process is nothing more than a standard CD mastered using downsampled 192/24 transfers. Anything that's "compatible" with existing equipment is limited to whatever resolution that equipment has. This is the thread you're referring to.

SACD and DVD-A dead, but K2HD is HERE!!!?!!?!?

I don't know why you're declaring BR dead as an audio format, when the first batch of audio-only releases has barely trickled out. Neil Young seems to think that Blu-ray's got plenty of promise as a music format because it offers up both high resolution audio and full interactive capability, something that wasn't possible with DVD-A and SACD. His archival boxed sets on Blu-ray start coming out in the fall.

Neil Young to Release Music Archive on Blu-ray

[Mr Peabody]

First of all, no one declared BR audio dead. There was merely a question. BR audio could have a very hard time getting traction IF there was such a thing as a CD that sounded near master quality. I agree that this isn't likely on an existing machine. I'm waiting to receive an answer to an email I sent to see what was being talked about.

Geez, I can see my room now, all these various disc formats filling the place up. It will also be difficult to keep two systems. Or, maybe I'll just have to figure some way to bring the equipment closer together. I would be pretty interested in hearing BR audio. Some of the movie soundtracks I've heard have been really impressive.

[pixelthis]

Sounds like yet another reference to JVC's K2HD (and before that XRCD and XRCD2) releases. That process is nothing more than a standard CD mastered using downsampled 192/24 transfers. Anything that's "compatible" with existing equipment is limited to whatever resolution that equipment has. This is the thread you're referring to.

SACD and DVD-A dead, but K2HD is HERE!!!?!!?!?

I don't know why you're declaring BR dead as an audio format, when the first batch of audio-only releases has barely trickled out. Neil Young seems to think that Blu-ray's got plenty of promise as a music format because it offers up both high resolution audio and full interactive capability, something that wasn't possible with DVD-A and SACD. His archival boxed sets on Blu-ray start coming out in the fall.

Neil Young to Release Music Archive on Blu-ray

neil young WAS ALSO AN ARDERNT supporter of DVDA, the format he picked in that little "format war".
Lets hope hes not so far off with BLU

[pixelthis]

Bluray isn't trying to do anything. Some independent music producers are creating audio only bluray disc that apparently some folks are VERY interested in. They are typically 24/96khz or 24/192khz Dts MA losslessm TrueHD, and PCM recording in two channel through 7.1.

I never thought anyone would be interested in these, but I was definately wrong about that. The bluray platform is perfect for high resolution recording, and apparently they are selling pretty well according to Lindberg Lyd, a independent producer out of Norway, and a frequent visitor to Bluray.com

I am going to be reviewing Divertimenti - TrondheimSolistene one of Lyd titles and Greigs Piano Concerto, Symphonic Dances in Autumn, Mozarts The Magic Flute, and Natures Color featuring the Worlds greatest Music for Bluray.com as soon as we get the review copies.

With DVD-A pretty much dead, and SACD slow flow of titles, a lot of folks are looking at Bluray specs and how many players are currently out there, and taking a big interest in releasing audio only titles.

Late last year I was the lead Engineer on two productions that will be released to Bluray later this year. One is the Planets, the other is Mozart's Requiem.

NO , YOU WOULDNT think any audiophile would be interested in a format with
perfect sound, dynamic range, and storage capacity, "mr expert"

[pixelthis]

First of all, no one declared BR audio dead. There was merely a question. BR audio could have a very hard time getting traction IF there was such a thing as a CD that sounded near master quality. I agree that this isn't likely on an existing machine. I'm waiting to receive an answer to an email I sent to see what was being talked about.

Geez, I can see my room now, all these various disc formats filling the place up. It will also be difficult to keep two systems. Or, maybe I'll just have to figure some way to bring the equipment closer together. I would be pretty interested in hearing BR audio. Some of the movie soundtracks I've heard have been really impressive.

I would be happy with some concert and music video discs.
THESE ARE FUN BECAUSE YOU CAN WATCH THEM OVER AND OVER.
When they start coming out on Blu then Blu will be an "essential".
STuff like the steely Dan DVD, etc

[Feanor]

First of all, no one declared BR audio dead. There was merely a question. BR audio could have a very hard time getting traction IF there was such a thing as a CD that sounded near master quality. I agree that this isn't likely on an existing machine. I'm waiting to receive an answer to an email I sent to see what was being talked about.

Geez, I can see my room now, all these various disc formats filling the place up. It will also be difficult to keep two systems. Or, maybe I'll just have to figure some way to bring the equipment closer together. I would be pretty interested in hearing BR audio. Some of the movie soundtracks I've heard have been really impressive.

As I said in the 'BluRay sales down' thread, if BluRay hi-rez audio happens at all, it will be a niche market exclusively. For even this to happen, it will need to displace SACD -- SACD is not dead or even dying but it is a small niche market. (The people who declare it dead aren't classical listeners; there is a small but quite steady stream of new classical releases.)

People just aren't that interested in hi-rez audio. 95% of listeners can't hear the differences on their equipment -- or maybe it's 100% if you acknowledge that more careful mastering is the real reason for the superiority of hi-rez recordings. Most of them don't care in any case. Hi-rez video, yes, but not for movies, for sports events, (where BluRay is irrelevant anyway).

[Ajani]

As I said in the 'BluRay sales down' thread, if BluRay hi-rez audio happens at all, it will be a niche market exclusively. For even this to happen, it will need to displace SACD -- SACD is not dead or even dying but it is a small niche market. (The people who declare it dead aren't classical listeners; there is a small but quite steady stream of new classical releases.)

People just aren't that interested in hi-rez audio. 95% of listeners can't hear the differences on their equipment -- or maybe it's 100% if you acknowledge that more careful mastering is the real reason for the superiority of hi-rez recordings. Most of them don't care in any case. Hi-rez video, yes, but not for movies, for sports events, (where BluRay is irrelevant anyway).

Good points. Another major problem is that Multi-channel audio is a tough sell for many people. MC needs to appeal to:

1) The dedicated 2 channel crowd and convince them that 5 speakers and a sub in MC sounds better than 1 pair of high quality floorstanders (for the same price). That a Receiver and Bluray Player in MC sounds better than an integrated amp and cd player/turntable (for the same price).

OR

2) Existing HT owners. Keep in mind though that even some very high quality (and really expensive) HT setups aren't well suited to MC music. Some HT setups use dipole speakers, others use Surround speakers that don't really match the mains, some even have centres that don't match the mains. Finally some HT speakers work fine for movies but really sound like crap for music (prime example being the Bose systems I've heard. They do a decent job on HT but sound like utter rubish on music).

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

First of all, no one declared BR audio dead. There was merely a question. BR audio could have a very hard time getting traction IF there was such a thing as a CD that sounded near master quality. I agree that this isn't likely on an existing machine. I'm waiting to receive an answer to an email I sent to see what was being talked about.

I do not think BR audio would have any problem co-existing with any CD format. The reason being with CD your resolution is at the very bottom of what is considered good audio. The step up would be BR audio which has resolution that is unacheiveable with CD, not to mention playing times, and the ability to offer music with 3 or 4 different audio codecs at different resolution to accomodate different setups.

Geez, I can see my room now, all these various disc formats filling the place up. It will also be difficult to keep two systems. Or, maybe I'll just have to figure some way to bring the equipment closer together. I would be pretty interested in hearing BR audio. Some of the movie soundtracks I've heard have been really impressive.

If you think soundtracks sound good, you should really hear 5.1 or 7.1 24/192khz audio. Soundtracks pale next to this I am afraid.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Good points. Another major problem is that Multi-channel audio is a tough sell for many people. MC needs to appeal to:

1) The dedicated 2 channel crowd and convince them that 5 speakers and a sub in MC sounds better than 1 pair of high quality floorstanders (for the same price). That a Receiver and Bluray Player in MC sounds better than an integrated amp and cd player/turntable (for the same price).

Bluray music comes in many flavors. It is not just limited to multichannel. Every release I have seen has at least one 24/192khz PCM soundtrack. So you do not have to convince anyone to change or alter their setup. Their are enough tracks to serve even older setups with some justice.

OR

2) Existing HT owners. Keep in mind though that even some very high quality (and really expensive) HT setups aren't well suited to MC music. Some HT setups use dipole speakers, others use Surround speakers that don't really match the mains, some even have centres that don't match the mains.

Dipoles are not bad for mutlichannel acoustical music such as classical or jazz. Where it becomes a problem is when mixers use "artistic" choices and move various instruments around the room. IMO even with frequency balanced, voiced and phase matched systems this is unnatural even if coherent. With acoustical classical and jazz, the hall ambience is what comes out of the rear channels, and dipoles work quite well at dispersing this around the room. If mismatched speakers become a problem, just switch to the two channel mix. I have the same concerns about mismatched speakers as you, but it appear not to be stopping many folks from buying the disc. Their sales are doing pretty well.

Finally some HT speakers work fine for movies but really sound like crap for music (prime example being the Bose systems I've heard. They do a decent job on HT but sound like utter rubish on music).

Unfortunately as bad as they sound to us, is as good as these sound to the owner. I know too many Bose owners who brag about how good their systems sound while I throw up in my mouth

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

NO , YOU WOULDNT think any audiophile would be interested in a format with
perfect sound, dynamic range, and storage capacity, "mr expert"

Echo's of jealousy and inadequacy Having an inferiority complex pixie?

[Feanor]

Good points. Another major problem is that Multi-channel audio is a tough sell for many people. MC needs to appeal to:

1) The dedicated 2 channel crowd and convince them that 5 speakers and a sub in MC sounds better than 1 pair of high quality floorstanders (for the same price). That a Receiver and Bluray Player in MC sounds better than an integrated amp and cd player/turntable (for the same price).

OR

2) Existing HT owners. Keep in mind though that even some very high quality (and really expensive) HT setups aren't well suited to MC music. Some HT setups use dipole speakers, others use Surround speakers that don't really match the mains, some even have centres that don't match the mains. Finally some HT speakers work fine for movies but really sound like crap for music (prime example being the Bose systems I've heard. They do a decent job on HT but sound like utter rubish on music).

On your first point, IMO, it's pretty close. That is, for the same money, a multi-channel system is will bring as much or more satisfaction as a stereo, given well-made multi-channel recordings. Unfortunately it's seemingly hard from producers and engineers to make good stereo recordings, let alone M/C.

My own HT system is much less good than my stereo and much less good than it ought to be, (e.g. fronts, center, rears aren't perfectly matched). Nevertheless on good recordings the potential of M/C is revealed.