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  1. #1
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    2010: The Year OLED TV Makes Contact?

    OLED has been touted for years as one of those magic bullet technologies that will eventually render all existing TV technologies obsolete. Because all current TV technologies have major inherent shortcomings of some kind, it leaves the market open to a new technology that overcomes these existing limitations.

    The promise of OLED technology is that it can deliver TVs that are thinner, lighter, and more energy efficient than anything currently on the market, with superior picture quality and performance. And because the screens are less complex than LCDs, OLED panels can eventually be manufactured at a lower cost. Nice concept, but it remains something off in the future.

    Up to this point, OLED has been the HDTV equivalent of vaporware -- the only model currently on the market is an 11" portable model by Sony that sells for $2,500. Last year's CES had some larger demo models between 20" and 27" from Samsung and Sony, which raised speculation that production models were just around the corner. Fast forward to this year, the CES OLED demos presented some larger demo models, but no word on when production models would come out.

    A BUSY WEEK
    But, now it looks like things are starting to heat up, with some of the big players more actively competing to introduce larger sized OLED TVs next year. Just this week, lots of announcements.

    First off, Panasonic announced a partnership with Sumitomo Chemical in which they claim to have resolved some of the current longevity and performance issues with OLED, and outlined a timetable in which they will have jointly developed 40" OLED TVs on the market before the end of 2010. Panasonic had previously been tight-lipped about its OLED plans, but they now seem determined to be first to market with OLED TVs in this screen size. The linked article speculates that Panasonic is looking to transition directly from plasma to OLED, and bypass large format LCDs altogether, which gives them incentive to push harder on advancing OLED tech.

    Also this week, Samsung and LG announced an OLED R&D joint venture. This is on top of the joint venture that LG had already inked last month with OLED pioneer Kodak. These Korean electronics giants are fierce competitors on the LCD and plasma side, and both have been actively developing OLED TVs independently. A joint venture would potentially accelerate the pace of development. Samsung displayed a 40" demo model late last year, and there are rumors that they will have a 27" production model out sometime this year. LG previously announced that they would have a 32" OLED TV out in 2010.

    Despite being first to market with a production OLED TV, there has been growing speculation about Sony's mixed signals on OLED. They've displayed 27" prototypes for more than a year, but announced nothing new. This week, it seems that these rumors (and presumably the newly announced development activity by competitors) prodded Sony to respond that they will "steadily cultivate" OLED and that nothing about their plans has changed. Home Theatre Choice indicated that Sony will release a 20" OLED model in September.

    So, it looks like the race is on and manufacturers are targeting 2010 as the starting point for OLED. Even though large format OLED screens are poised to reach market soon, it remains to be seen whether OLED lives up to the hype. Early reports indicate that OLED has been hung up by short screen life, issues with color accuracy, and issues with production yields. But, with these rapid-fire announcements this week, it seems that manufacturers are confident that they can at least minimize these lingering issues by the time their initial models come out.
    Last edited by Woochifer; 05-15-2009 at 02:24 PM.
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  2. #2
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Speaking of fast moving developments ...

    SED was once mentioned along side OLED as a potential future successor TV tech, with both Canon and Toshiba collaborating on a joint venture, and even displaying prototype displays for years. SED technology is conceptually closer to traditional CRTs than OLED, and while it cannot replicate the thinness of OLED (or OLED's flexibility and translucency) some people who've seen SED demos claim that it blows everything else away, including OLED. In 2007, it was thought that SED was dead in the water when Toshiba pulled out of the joint venture, and Canon stopped all SED development after they got embroiled in a patent lawsuit.

    Well, turns out that Canon prevailed in the lawsuit earlier this year, and it was reported last week that they've now filed a couple of patent applications for SED technologies. This fuels speculation on whether SED TVs are now back in play. At one point in time, SED TVs were purportedly closer to production than OLED, and Canon (or Toshiba, can't remember) was supposedly readying a 55" production model until they got hit with the patent lawsuit. With 2010 targeted for the debut of large format OLED TVs, are SED TVs also poised to make their market entrance as well?
    Last edited by Woochifer; 05-15-2009 at 05:43 PM.
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  3. #3
    Suspended Smokey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    With 2010 targeted for the debut of large format OLED TVs, are SED TVs also poised to make their market entrance as well?
    If OLED do launch next year, then SED might be coming little too late to the game. With OLED technology being much thinner and consuming less energy that SED, the market will probably move to former direction. As it is happening now between LCD and Plasma.

  4. #4
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    For those who dont know about SED TV here's a link

    http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/sed-tv.htm
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  5. #5
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    Sounds like something to keep the elves busy in the shop

  6. #6
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Sounds like something to keep the elves busy in the shop

    Not a nice thing to call asian factory workers;-)
    OLED is going to be it, that is if we surrive the current unopleasantness
    (we could all be eating roots next year).
    I KNOW PQ is key for this group, myself included, but OLED beats SED in
    several pratical areas.
    SED is basically "fixed" plasma.
    OLED screens can be rolled up, produced in different shapes easily, and when developed
    in the future, nano based paint will allow a screen to be painted on a wall.
    Economies of scale are teh only thing holding up OLED, get those right and screen life becomes secondary, because at a cheap price they will be easily replaced.
    All current tech is a stopgap, OLED is what they will be using in the future.
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  7. #7
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    I can't wait for the opportunity to buy another $11,000 television...
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    I can't wait for the opportunity to buy another $11,000 television...
    * "another?" You mean to say you paid that for the first one? Right though, when Plasma hit you couldn't hardly find one for less than $10k. I wonder how many of those are still in service and that was before HDCP and HDMI.

  9. #9
    GTF
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    Any idea if the new OLED TV will finally be free of the motion issues of every LCD TV I see?
    No matter what brand, 60hz, 120hz, we're so special brand of LCD they still can't compare to a CRT for fast motion.
    I am stuck with my SONY XBR tube until then.

  10. #10
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTF
    Any idea if the new OLED TV will finally be free of the motion issues of every LCD TV I see?
    No matter what brand, 60hz, 120hz, we're so special brand of LCD they still can't compare to a CRT for fast motion.
    I am stuck with my SONY XBR tube until then.
    Every screen tech out there has an achilles heel of some sort, and OLED is no exception. With CRT, the issue was its bulk and subsequent limited screen size, and that has basically killed CRT in the market. Didn't matter that CRT remained the highest performing screen tech when the major manufacturers discontinued their CRT lines, consumers want a thin flat big screen.

    Right now, the biggest issue with OLED is its screen life, particularly with specific color shades. But, given how young a technology it is, this will probably be readily resolved fairly shortly. That Sumitomo technology that Panasonic licensed has supposedly solved that problem, but we won't know for sure until their OLED sets actually hit the market next year.

    OLED supposedly has shorter response times and deeper blacks than plasma, along with brighter images and lower energy consumption than LCD. On paper, this is a winning combination. But, as I said, everything's merely speculation until the actual production sets start coming out.
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  11. #11
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    Every screen tech out there has an achilles heel of some sort, and OLED is no exception. With CRT, the issue was its bulk and subsequent limited screen size, and that has basically killed CRT in the market. Didn't matter that CRT remained the highest performing screen tech when the major manufacturers discontinued their CRT lines, consumers want a thin flat big screen.
    "Highest performing tech on the market"?
    Merely your opinion.
    CRT was inherently limited in size and brightness, the pixels were made out of phosper
    and were the primary source of illumination.
    MAKE THEM SMALLER FOR HIGHER RES AND YOU GOT LESS LIGHT OUTPUT.
    CRT was the ultimate veiwing source...
    until the ninties

    Right now, the biggest issue with OLED is its screen life, particularly with specific color shades. But, given how young a technology it is, this will probably be readily resolved fairly shortly. That Sumitomo technology that Panasonic licensed has supposedly solved that problem, but we won't know for sure until their OLED sets actually hit the market next year.
    A few years behind Sony as usual, and probably full of bugs.
    HOW much does the propaganda arm of Pannys marketing dept pay you, anyhoo?
    Every one of your posts mentions them.

    OLED supposedly has shorter response times and deeper blacks than plasma, along with brighter images and lower energy consumption than LCD. On paper, this is a winning combination. But, as I said, everything's merely speculation until the actual production sets start coming out.
    There is no "speculation" about it, OLED has not "deeper" blacks, it has perfect
    blacks, since the pixels are the source of light, there is no light when they are off,
    therefore perfect blacks, somewhat like CRT.
    A properly made LED blacklight can greatly enhance the blacks of LCD today
    btw, no need to wait for OLED for a great picture.
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    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Practical advice, please, Wooch.

    That is the relevance of OLED or LED for that matter for a poor person like me who might be replacing a CRT in the next year of so?? Frankly it looks like diddly zip to me.

    My budget is limited and my video requirement is best I can get within my budget. However I'm not a video performance perfectionist, I'd trade some performance for reliability and practicality.

    So ... do you have a practical recommendation for 46 - 50" HDTV? I don't watch sports and I don't required high brightness since my TH room is in a dingy basement.

  13. #13
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Practical advice, please, Wooch.

    That is the relevance of OLED or LED for that matter for a poor person like me who might be replacing a CRT in the next year of so?? Frankly it looks like diddly zip to me.

    My budget is limited and my video requirement is best I can get within my budget. However I'm not a video performance perfectionist, I'd trade some performance for reliability and practicality.

    So ... do you have a practical recommendation for 46 - 50" HDTV? I don't watch sports and I don't required high brightness since my TH room is in a dingy basement.
    I saw a Sharp aquos on the QVC shopping channel for 795 (five monthly payments)
    for a 1080p 42in.
    Vizio is a good "el cheapo" model, get nothing but praise for mine.
    Can prob get a 42" for less than 800 now, more likely.
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  14. #14
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Sensible advice, Pix

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    I saw a Sharp aquos on the QVC shopping channel for 795 (five monthly payments)
    for a 1080p 42in.
    Vizio is a good "el cheapo" model, get nothing but praise for mine.
    Can prob get a 42" for less than 800 now, more likely.
    Vizio isn't available up in my northern parts. Insignias, (Best Buy), turn up here once in while.

    I'm buying nothing until my CRT koinks. By then I hope to get a 46" 1080p model. Sorry, I know you're an LCD advcate, but of the older technologies I think plasma will best suit my needs. For instance THIS Panasonic from Bestbuy.ca.

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    I don't know what's under the hood of Pro Scan but Costco has been selling them at crazy prices like a 46" LCD for $429.00 U.S.

    I didn't check the settings I didn't care at the time but walking through Best Buy I saw an Insignia LCD they were using for a Wii game console and it looked terrible, very bright with the colors washed out. Wii is standard Def but the picture was so bad it really stuck out in my mind.

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    As an early adopter of a stereoscopic head mounted display that uses OLEDs, I can tell you longevity is a major issues, as is pixel brightness/contrast variations. And fixing these with newer technologies is very expensive. I don't know what people are complaining about with ghosting in LCD, though. Even 60hz capable modern LCDs don't have ANY ghosting. I was also waiting for FET/SED and will wait to see how the prices turn out compared to OLED. Aside from the fixed-grain pattern issue of a non-dying OLED, it does indeed have film-like color contrast, though. If the normal brightness with complete blacks is good enough without requiring an overall boost (which washes everything out) and the pixel variation is solved, OLED can look better than CRT. The idea of having to buy insurance on your display like people do with plasma, though, just in case you get one that might die in a year might turn people off. Once you get to the economies of scale you guys are talking about is when you finally start finding out about reliability. They're not going to build a hundred thousand displays and run them for a year to find out how many of them burn out a quarter of the right sides.

  17. #17
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Crazy indeed

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    I don't know what's under the hood of Pro Scan but Costco has been selling them at crazy prices like a 46" LCD for $429.00 U.S.

    I didn't check the settings I didn't care at the time but walking through Best Buy I saw an Insignia LCD they were using for a Wii game console and it looked terrible, very bright with the colors washed out. Wii is standard Def but the picture was so bad it really stuck out in my mind.
    Up here in the GWN, Costco isn't offering that ProSan. In fact the cheapest 46" 1080p they've got is THIS Sceptre LCD for C$1000. They don't offer any 46"+ 1080p plasmas under C$2000, surprisingly, but I maybe they think like Pixelthis when it comes to plasma.

    BB.ca isn't advertising any Insignias at the moment.

  18. #18
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    "Highest performing tech on the market"?
    Merely your opinion.
    CRT was inherently limited in size and brightness, the pixels were made out of phosper
    and were the primary source of illumination.
    MAKE THEM SMALLER FOR HIGHER RES AND YOU GOT LESS LIGHT OUTPUT.
    CRT was the ultimate veiwing source...
    until the ninties
    I'd already mentioned the size limitation. But, on all the other performance parameters, CRTs performed better than any of the flat panel techs. Unless you're trying to use your TV as a tanning salon, maximum light output is irrelevant if the calibrated levels on a CRT already exceed the reference levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    A few years behind Sony as usual, and probably full of bugs.
    Behind Sony only because they never bothered to rush out an 11" model to the market, which BTW still costs $2,500 and has a screen life less than half that of a typical LCD or plasma TV. Sony supposedly only has a 20" OLED TV in the works, while Samsung, LG, and Panny are looking to get larger models onto the market beginning late this year and into next year. (try reading the original post in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Every one of your posts mentions them.
    Have you actually read all 5,800+ of my posts? Obviously not.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    There is no "speculation" about it, OLED has not "deeper" blacks, it has perfect
    blacks, since the pixels are the source of light, there is no light when they are off,
    therefore perfect blacks, somewhat like CRT.
    A properly made LED blacklight can greatly enhance the blacks of LCD today
    btw, no need to wait for OLED for a great picture.
    And OLED has the promise of an even better picture, without all the inherent drawbacks and bandaids of LCD.
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  19. #19
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Practical advice, please, Wooch.

    That is the relevance of OLED or LED for that matter for a poor person like me who might be replacing a CRT in the next year of so?? Frankly it looks like diddly zip to me.

    My budget is limited and my video requirement is best I can get within my budget. However I'm not a video performance perfectionist, I'd trade some performance for reliability and practicality.

    So ... do you have a practical recommendation for 46 - 50" HDTV? I don't watch sports and I don't required high brightness since my TH room is in a dingy basement.
    If maximum brightness is not an issue, then I would look into an entry level plasma. In the U.S., a 50" plasma will start around $800 for a 720p model and about $1,200 for a 1080p. Last year, there were also 46" 1080p plasmas going for around $1,000, and 1080p 42" models going for around $800. Both Panasonic and Samsung make very good plasma TVs in those price ranges, and Panasonic has had the lowest three-year failure rate among all TVs. LG's plasma sets are a slight step down in picture quality, but they generally less expensive.

    LCD models are also available around that price range, but in the lower price points, the picture quality is not as good as what you'd get with an equally priced plasma set. Sony and Samsung are the ones you should start with if you want to go with LCD. Higher end models with 120 Hz refresh rates and/or LED backlighting are definitely a step up in picture quality, but you obviously pay more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Up here in the GWN, Costco isn't offering that ProSan. In fact the cheapest 46" 1080p they've got is THIS Sceptre LCD for C$1000. They don't offer any 46"+ 1080p plasmas under C$2000, surprisingly, but I maybe they think like Pixelthis when it comes to plasma.

    BB.ca isn't advertising any Insignias at the moment.
    That right, forgot that you're dealing with Canadian retailers. I remember that the Costco specials were not available up there. Too bad. At least Costco is constantly rotating their inventory, and you never know what will show up on any given week (see my thread on the $69 Denon universal players).

    Beware of off-brand companies like Proscan and Sceptre. Their warranty support is typically a lot narrower than what you get from a name brand company, and once you're out of the warranty period, you might be totally out of luck if the TV breaks since these companies usually do not maintain spare parts inventories or service manuals.

    The current trend is for off-brand companies to license defunct brand names for their TVs, which just adds to the confusion for consumers. Proscan, for example, used to be the high end label for RCA. But, now Proscan is just a label that Thomson (RCA's parent company) licensed to an otherwise anonymous outsource manufacturer. Same thing goes for Westinghouse, Polaroid, Sylvania, and Curtis Mathes TVs -- all of these former U.S. manufacturing stalwarts are nothing more than licensed labels for overseas companies selling low end products.
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  20. #20
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Vizio isn't available up in my northern parts. Insignias, (Best Buy), turn up here once in while.

    I'm buying nothing until my CRT koinks. By then I hope to get a 46" 1080p model. Sorry, I know you're an LCD advcate, but of the older technologies I think plasma will best suit my needs. For instance THIS Panasonic from Bestbuy.ca.
    Better hurry, there are only a few manufacturers left.
    One thing that is going to kill plasma more than anything is ssomething called economies of scale.
    There are technical reasons it will never be produced in the quanties you can produce LCD.
    And nobodies going to pay 1200 bucks for a 46" plasma when you can get a LCD for
    800, which is the way prices are heading.
    With the expensive glass tubes and other paraphenelia required for plasma there is only so cheap that it can get.
    With LCD the floors teh limit on price.
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  21. #21
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    I'd already mentioned the size limitation. But, on all the other performance parameters, CRTs performed better than any of the flat panel techs. Unless you're trying to use your TV as a tanning salon, maximum light output is irrelevant if the calibrated levels on a CRT already exceed the reference levels.
    The usual doublespeak. If the thing is so dim you can't see it it is not a viable option.
    CRT was around for decades and the best it got was a huge 42" console that weighed hundreds of pounds.
    Its not that the thousands of engineers working on CRT over the decades were stupid,
    the tech itself was limited, and used only out of nessesity


    Behind Sony only because they never bothered to rush out an 11" model to the market, which BTW still costs $2,500 and has a screen life less than half that of a typical LCD or plasma TV. Sony supposedly only has a 20" OLED TV in the works, while Samsung, LG, and Panny are looking to get larger models onto the market beginning late this year and into next year. (try reading the original post in this thread)

    Sure its a novelty item, but at least its something



    Have you actually read all 5,800+ of my posts? Obviously not.
    My bad, almost all of your posts mention PANASONIC


    And OLED has the promise of an even better picture, without all the inherent drawbacks and bandaids of LCD.
    GREAT PROPAGANDA, mention the "baindaids" of LCD, which are actually just the cost of doing buisiness, and fail to mention the massive amout of "bandaids" required
    just to keep a picture from burning in on a plasma, the format of choice from your buddies at Panasonic, who are one of the two or three makers of this defunct format
    that is heading for its rightfull place in the tech boneyard.
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  22. #22
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    I don't know what's under the hood of Pro Scan but Costco has been selling them at crazy prices like a 46" LCD for $429.00 U.S.

    I didn't check the settings I didn't care at the time but walking through Best Buy I saw an Insignia LCD they were using for a Wii game console and it looked terrible, very bright with the colors washed out. Wii is standard Def but the picture was so bad it really stuck out in my mind.
    Probably watching the default setting. Before anyone evaluates any TV, they need to tinker with the settings to see what the actual picture quality looks like when the image is adjusted closer to reference levels. The default settings are all over the place, and more often than not look like what you describe -- way too bright, inaccurate colors, bloomed out lines, etc. Even sets made by the same manufacturer can have huge differences in the default picture settings between different models.

    As mentioned above, Proscan is basically a label that got licensed and slapped onto an off-brand TV. Shrewd (if not entirely honest) move given that Proscan was RCA's premium brand up until about 10 years ago, and many consumers who don't regularly shop for TVs might think they're getting a top level TV for that bargain price.

    BTW, that $330 Costco price on the Proscan is for a 32" TV, and they have a 40" Proscan model selling for $500 this month.
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  23. #23
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    The usual doublespeak. If the thing is so dim you can't see it it is not a viable option.
    CRT was around for decades and the best it got was a huge 42" console that weighed hundreds of pounds.
    Its not that the thousands of engineers working on CRT over the decades were stupid,
    the tech itself was limited, and used only out of nessesity
    Yeah, and that bulk is why consumers didn't buy them at that size. Performance of flat panel TVs are only now even getting close to what CRTs offered up. That's why professional studios still use CRTs. And even now, fixed-pixel flat panels generally do a piss poor job of rescaling SD sources, which is what many channels still use.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    My bad, almost all of your posts mention PANASONIC
    Wow, you actually corrected yourself! (See that wasn't so bad! ) But, you'd still be wrong if you actually bother to read my posts. Nice try though.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    GREAT PROPAGANDA, mention the "baindaids" of LCD, which are actually just the cost of doing buisiness, and fail to mention the massive amout of "bandaids" required
    just to keep a picture from burning in on a plasma, the format of choice from your buddies at Panasonic, who are one of the two or three makers of this defunct format
    that is heading for its rightfull place in the tech boneyard.
    More wishful thinking on your part.

    Cost of doing business? Actually, bandaids like motion interpolation and scanning backlights were put into high end LCD TVs just so their motion resolution and contrast performance could come close to what entry level plasma TVs already delivered at half the price. Burn in on plasmas is a nonissue with newer models because of improvements to the panel design itself.

    Are you saying that an LCD's picture quality is so good that OLED's no longer needed?
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  24. #24
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Better hurry, there are only a few manufacturers left.
    One thing that is going to kill plasma more than anything is ssomething called economies of scale.
    There are technical reasons it will never be produced in the quanties you can produce LCD.
    And nobodies going to pay 1200 bucks for a 46" plasma when you can get a LCD for
    800, which is the way prices are heading.
    With the expensive glass tubes and other paraphenelia required for plasma there is only so cheap that it can get.
    With LCD the floors teh limit on price.
    Here's the thing, Pix. When I look around at my local options, the LCDs are not cheaper than the plasmas.

  25. #25
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    I'm afraid you are right, I could have sworn one of my email had a 46" but I only found the $499.00 40" which is still a cheap set at that size.

    You can add to the list of ressorected names the Sansui brand. I saw a Sansui TV at Wal-Mart over the weekend.

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