Harman Kardon DVD31 vs. Marantz DV4500

[Slosh]

Well to keep it simple you have to use a digital connection for Dolby Digital or DTS. There is no way around this.

The 6ch analog outputs are for SACD or DVD-A.

The other basic left and right analog outputs are for stereo use or hooking the unit up to a basic TV.

If you use the digital out connection all processing happens in the receiver. You have bypassed everything in the DVD player.

No, most (if not all) universal players also have on-board DD/DTS decoders so if you can get the bass management and time alignment to work well with your speakers you may hear a slight improvement depending on the quality of the DACs vs. the ones in your processor or AV receiver. I figure the manufacturers' thinking was since you need to use the analog outputs anyway there might as well be decoding for all DVD sound formats (although I never heard of a universal with on-board EX/ES decoding).

[anamorphic96]

No, most (if not all) universal players also have on-board DD/DTS decoders so if you can get the bass management and time alignment to work well with your speakers you may hear a slight improvement depending on the quality of the DACs vs. the ones in your processor or AV receiver. I figure the manufacturers' thinking was since you need to use the analog outputs anyway there might as well be decoding for all DVD sound formats (although I never heard of a universal with on-board EX/ES decoding).

I stand corrected then. But how many people use this method. I'd be willing to bet not to many. The digital connection is the most popular.

[N. Abstentia]

I use the onboard decoders on my Marantz player simply because it sounds much better. You'd be surprised how many folks actually do this. Another reason I don't use the digital cable is because it's impossible to get SACD or DVD-A from it.

[anamorphic96]

I disagree. If you where to take a poll you would find most use the digital connection. Ask 100 random HT owners and I would bet more than 75 percent use the digital connection.

[shokhead]

Thats what i thought but was told on here,no way. Most dont use the dig.

[N. Abstentia]

I think it does matter who you ask..if you ask 100 newbies or non-tweakers then you will probably get a majority of digital connection users. It's easier and cheaper. You'll probably also notice a trend that shows most of these users have less than $100 invested in their DVD player...or God forbid..an all-in-one system.

However, ask 100 'tekkies' or 100 people who own 10 or more SACD's then your results will be different. You'll find more $500 players in this category as well.

[shokhead]

I think it does matter who you ask..if you ask 100 newbies or non-tweakers then you will probably get a majority of digital connection users. It's easier and cheaper. You'll probably also notice a trend that shows most of these users have less than $100 invested in their DVD player...or God forbid..an all-in-one system.

However, ask 100 'tekkies' or 100 people who own 10 or more SACD's then your results will be different. You'll find more $500 players in this category as well.

Well lets not bring DVD-A and SACD into this. Just your plain old DVD and cd's and tv. Of course multi-channel people will not use the dig. Thats kinda loading the question so it goes one way.

[cjtalbot]

I use the onboard decoders on my Marantz player simply because it sounds much better. You'd be surprised how many folks actually do this. Another reason I don't use the digital cable is because it's impossible to get SACD or DVD-A from it.

Nice...

That's good to hear, I just picked up a SR8400 and DV6400. I'll be setting them up this weekend and I'm looking forward to comparing the DTS and DD outputs through both the coax digital and the multi-channel hookups. (dvd side decoding vs. receiver side decoding).

[N. Abstentia]

Cool, I also have the Marantz 6400. Let us know the results of your tests!

[J*E*Cole]

Well to get back to the question, I have the HK DVD22 connected to an HK rec. with Monster Lite Speed 200 fiber optic cable. The DVD22 has the same DACs and all as the 31 and I can only say that it looks and sounds terrific. There is noticable improvement over my old dvd player in both picture and sound, and I sometimes play audio cds through it just because it sounds so good. Can't speak for the Marantz, but the HK is worth every penny.

[hershon]

Well according to alot of people here, not me obviously, they claim that if you connected your previous DVD player by Optic Cable there would be no difference in sound to your current Optic connection. I love my HK 31. Out of curiosity what is the difference in price and features between the 31 and the 22? I basically bought the 31 because every single review I read on Amazon.com,. CNET (I think) and other online sites all praised the 31's sound.

[anamorphic96]

Keep in mind though with a fiber optic cable you are using the DAC's in the receiver. You will need to use the analogue left and right output to here what the DAC's sound like in the DVD22.

[shokhead]

Are you sure? Just kidding. I'd like hershon to try his HK with the analog and see which he perfers. I bet its pretty close as his Denons a few years older but with good Dac's and his HK is newer. I'd try it but thats an all day job easy but i'm pretty sure my Denon would win out over my Sony player. You dont hear to many bragging about the Dac's in there Sony DVD player. I think with hershons Orbs,they are very detailed speaker and would hear any slight difference ,i would think.

[anamorphic96]

Actually in Hershon's defense he has used the analogue outs and he prefers the digital connection. But im not sure if J E Cole realizes he is using the receivers DAC's and not the DVD players.

Hershon the only difference between the two is the 22 does not have DVD - A. The 22 also retails for 199.00 at your local Circuit City.

[hershon]

Thanks I knew there was a reason I bought the HK 31 over the 22. I rarely play or buy DVD-A's but I wanted to still have the option to do so which you don't have on the HK 22. I still am puzzled why the optical cable connection sound on my HK 31 is so much better than using analogue outs in regards to plain CD's. The 6 analogue interconnects for the DVD-A on the HK 31 sound excellent though. To clarify for anyone, my biggest dealbreaker/maker in chosing a DVD player for myself is sound (for both DVD's & standard CD's). While the picture on the HK DVD players are excellent, I find the pictures on most progressive scan DVD players are excellent as well, so that was not that great a factor for me. Again, even though alot of people say I can't, I noticed significant differences in sound quality for different DVD players when connected by optical cable which I prefer. Right now the HK 31 produces the best sound for me and was easily worth the $250 investment I paid for it (its retail price is listed at $350). One word of caution though to anyone who has a DVD player, there is a setup menu for the DVD player & if you are not aware of it, the defaults will in all likelyhood affect your sound quality and perhaps cause you to waste endless money on newer speakers & receivers, so I would make sure to check out what you have set up for your DVD player on the menu. Specifically, the default may be that your DVD player controls the sound over your receiver or vice versa & you weren't aware of that, which may drastically change your sound quality. In summary, you will have both a Receiver set up menu and a DVD set up menu and if you have not set this up for both, you could be in trouble.

[shokhead]

You answered my question,your Denon has the better Dac's.

[J*E*Cole]

Well according to alot of people here, not me obviously, they claim that if you connected your previous DVD player by Optic Cable there would be no difference in sound to your current Optic connection. I love my HK 31. Out of curiosity what is the difference in price and features between the 31 and the 22? I basically bought the 31 because every single review I read on Amazon.com,. CNET (I think) and other online sites all praised the 31's sound.

I think the 31 can resolve DVD-A and my 22 cannot, but I have to say, I did have my old DVD player (hate to say it but it was an RCA) connected fiber optically too, but the HK STILL blows it away, I don't want to say anyone's a liar, but the HK sure does sound alot better. BTW, I paid $199 at CC mainly because I was completely satisfied with my HK receiver (which BTW would have the same DACs as their DVD players), and because ALL the reviews on their site were also very positive.

[hershon]

It looks like the only difference betweehn the HK 22 & 31 is DVD-A. If you're not planning to use DVD-A you made a better choice (add on another $100 plus for 6 internect cables for DVD-A). I hardly have any DVD-A & rarely play it but I just wanted to have the option to play them. As I said, the sound on my HK DVD player connected by optic cable blows away any CD or DVD player I've heard & I'm very, very, happy with it.

[anamorphic96]

Here you go hershon. Thought you might enjoy.

http://www.soundstageav.com/onhifi.html

[hershon]

Thanks for the link to the review This looks like an excellent audio website and I'm glad you let me know of this. What's interesting about the review is that while it said the CD sound was much better than alot of other CD/Universal/DVD players, it didn't say if this was an analogue comparison or a fiber optics comparison, I'm going to try to email them to find out.

http://www.soundstageav.com/onhifi.html[/QUOTE]

[anamorphic96]

Judging from the review he used analoque outputs. I know we have been over this, and we differ in opinion on this matter but using the analogue outputs is the only way to judge the player accurately.

After looking closer he did use analogue connections.

" This allows you to hook the DVD 31 to the multichannel inputs on your preamp-processor or receiver as well as the stereo inputs, which I did."

If he used the digital output he would no longer be judging the HK. He would be listening to the NAD and that would defeat the purpose of the review.

[hershon]

Your probably right but I emailed the guy who wrote it and hope he responds back for clarification on this and the fiber optics question. I'm going to spend tommorow on that web site as it looks like a great site. Thanks.

[anamorphic96]

May 16, 2005

I have the Harman Kardon DVD 31 DVD/CD player that you reviewed, and I love it. I bought this unit mainly for its CD sound. I play the HK, which I got for $250 online, by connecting it with a fiber-optic cable to my Denon 3801 receiver, which is connected to my six Orb Audio speakers and subwoofer, which are the best speakers and subwoofer I've heard.

The reason I'm writing you is that I read your excellent and very well-written review of the Harman Kardon DVD 31. I have one question that hopefully will resolve a major argument I am having with people on an online forum. Q: Did you listen to CDs via a fiber-optic connection or the analog outputs?

The reason I'm asking is that my sound is so much better with the fiber-optic cable than an analog outs, but people on the board keep maintaining that the sound of a $35 DVD player will sound the same as a $10,000 DVD player, ad infinitum, when connected by fiber-optic cable because it's just reading ones and zeroes. I maintain this is nonsense, and I am using the sound of my HK DVD 31 as proof.

Phil Hershon

A: By using a fiber-optic digital cable and connecting the DVD 31 directly to your Denon receiver, you are actually bypassing the DVD 31's analog stage and using the player as a transport. When using any player as a transport, you are relying on the digital-to-analog conversion to be done somewhere else. In your case, it's happening in the Denon receiver, with the digital stream being passed along by the fiber-optic cable. As for this sounding better than the DVD 31's own analog stage, that's quite possible. Denon is well-known for making some accomplished digital gear.

As for your next question, about whether a $35 DVD player will sound as good as a $10,000 one in the configuration that you're talking about, this topic has actually been batted around audiophile circles for years. On the one hand are the people who say that bits are bits and any transport will perform as well as another as long as it's operating properly. Others, however, find profound differences.

As for the bit-and-bits crowd, the argument falls apart when you compare transports and find that not all sound the same. There's more to it than just saying all the ones and zeroes transfer the same. That logic may work for computer hard drives, which aren't as time sensitive as CD playback, but there's more to it when you're trying to reproduce topnotch sound. I've done the experiment many times; hence, I don't use a $35 DVD player as a transport. On the other hand, you don't have to spend exorbitant amounts of money to get fine performance from a transport.

What you have going appears to satisfy you, and that's what's important. What's also important is that you don't just believe what others say. Some people get blinded by the world of digital and think everything sounds the same when, in fact, the discrepancies between pieces of digital gear are just as great as those between analog products.

...Doug Schneider

He at least admits there could be differences in transports. Which could account for the differences you hearing in the HK. Maybe the HK is doing something subtley different in it's digital output.

[N. Abstentia]

May 16, 2005

He at least admits there could be differences in transports. Which could account for the differences you hearing in the HK. Maybe the HK is doing something subtley different in it's digital output.

I seriously doubt it. Keep in mind that the innards of that player are manufactured by Company X, who then sends them to 20-25 other companies who put their brand name on them. You'd probably be surprised at how many players on the market are the exact same thing as the H/K once you pop the lid.

I'm not saying that transports can't be different, but not in this price range.

[shokhead]

And you know this for sure how about the HK's transport?