Denon, Yamaha or Marantz Receiver

[cam]

Alot of people go shopping for a certain sound that they think they can live with. When I went shopping I already knew the sound that I could not live with. I was using a Technics sadx 1050 which was their top model at that time. It did the job for awhile but then it became hard on the ears, I lived with it for 2 years and during those 2 years I went from watching my movies at almost reference levels to not even being able to stand it at medium volume, then to not even wanting to use the amp anymore. I had gone completely tired of that sort of sound. I was lucky enough to be able to hear the yamaha 740 with the denon 1803 side by side with energy speakers at A&B sound. I used some of my favorite cd's and dvd's and right away I found that the yammy had that same sound that I knew I just could not live with again. The denon was softer on my ears and as the volume increased it stayed just as soothing on my ears. When we cranked up the 740 I just wanted it to be turned down right away. I ended up buying the 1804 a month later. Reliability issues aside, find your budget and the sound you can live with. It was easy for me because I knew the sound I could not.

[RGA]

Look, until anyone can post me statistical provable facts that any of these is reliably superior to the others to such a degree it would make a notable difference that would interest me. Otherwise it doesn't mean a whole lot. What would matter more is the customer serivice. Looking inside the 4300 and it's competitors from Yamah and Denon the Marantz had the biggest power transformwer the heaviest unit and easily the most superior in build construction...now whether the thing will fall apart is another matter.

Now I admit Yamaha has a good rep for build no question - amongst receiver makers. But In Canada anyway Marantz has the longest warranty of any receiver sold in the country. 3 years intead of 1 or 2 the others offer.

In the price range the 4300 is the only one that allows for an upgrade of the power amp section - which at least for my needs would be a very valuable option without it would completely have it crossed from my list.

Marantz has had more issues from my personal knowledge of them in BC.

But hey people buy American cars for some reason - it sure has nothing to do with reliability.

[Woochifer]

Look, until anyone can post me statistical provable facts that any of these is reliably superior to the others to such a degree it would make a notable difference that would interest me. Otherwise it doesn't mean a whole lot.

The reliability issues noted on this board in the past have typically been with specific production runs. The reviews are a good source for flagging potential problems with certain models. A handful of failed units should be expected, but if you start seeing reviews detailing out one failed unit after another, that points more to a pattern than just typical random bad luck. Some manufacturers have had more bad production runs than others. Sony and h/k have had several problematic runs with very high failure rates over the past decade. Sony's problems with their DE and DB series models got to the point that my friend in AV sales quit demoing the Sonys and steered his customers to the Denons and Yamahas as much as possible. Two years ago, Marantz's x200 models had early production problems with the power supplies. Onkyo also had at least a couple of models with reliability problems in the mid-90s.

But hey people buy American cars for some reason - it sure has nothing to do with reliability.

Yeah, and people buy European cars for some reason as well, even though their reliability now ranks at the bottom.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...-reports_x.htm

[RGA]

The reliability issues noted on this board in the past have typically been with specific production runs. The reviews are a good source for flagging potential problems with certain models. A handful of failed units should be expected, but if you start seeing reviews detailing out one failed unit after another, that points more to a pattern than just typical random bad luck. Some manufacturers have had more bad production runs than others. Sony and h/k have had several problematic runs with very high failure rates over the past decade. Sony's problems with their DE and DB series models got to the point that my friend in AV sales quit demoing the Sonys and steered his customers to the Denons and Yamahas as much as possible. Two years ago, Marantz's x200 models had early production problems with the power supplies. Onkyo also had at least a couple of models with reliability problems in the mid-90s.


Yeah, and people buy European cars for some reason as well, even though their reliability now ranks at the bottom.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...-reports_x.htm

Well I still only hear hearsay no facts about the audio equipment.

As for cars - I may be out of date with my info but "All Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar and Land Rover" did poorly.

Now I though American car companies owned all of these except Mercedes which owns Chrysler. So Chrysler doing better than Mercedes is odd since they're one and the same company.

Consumer reports...Yes I bought my 1994 Grand Am because Consumer Reports said it was more reliable than most every car in its class - I should have read the Lemon Aid as it was rubbished...Consumer Reports LATER had it as the lemon it was and still is.

The Focus has an awful record in Lemon Aid and good one in Consumer reports...ahh stats from polls...and did I read correctly that we're believing the manufacturers and what they claim is a break down? 20 to 18 even if that is correct is negligable and probably rooted out with a larger poll...like all the people who don't subscribe to consumer reports. Far less people own German cars so I would like to see the actual break down...Ie;the sample size for European cars would be FAR smaller than that of the American cars.

Buyers have figured it out over ten years since Toyota has finally surpassed GM. Though the Americans have figured it out with all the numerous co-productions. The Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe(same car same plant - slightly alrtered body and interior) have gotten good reviews...perhaps mixing the Japanese know-how with the American styling I have said would be best for both entities.

Now if only Ford could somehow stop having their tires blow up because THEY can't design wheels and if they can stop their cars from blowing up on rear impact - Crown Victoria police cars - they might sit better with me. I mean they've been making them long enough and been sued enough time and they STILL have the exact same problems. Jaguar is owned by Ford...and the Jag is a POS. Blaming Europe? Now that I don't get...That's like Disney blaming Euro Disney for making no money...when it was stupid decsion by American owners not to investigate what their market was first.

I have heard various problems with Marantz here as well...one dealer dumped Marantz for repair and lousy customer service in the 1980s brought in Sony and Yammie and they sucked dumped them - then you see a decade later they bring them back and give em another try - Now they carry 3 or even 4 of those major players. Seems to me like it's a cycle - bad runs very possible. Denon marantz is funny because hey they don't care which you buy the moeny goes to the same pot. Sorta like the GM of receivers. I mean they brought out Saturn as a way to distance themselves from themselves - gee hopefully people won't think we're GM. Didn't work but it made a lot of sense.

[kexodusc]

Well I still only hear hearsay no facts about the audio equipment.

As for cars - I may be out of date with my info but "All Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar and Land Rover" did poorly.

Now I though American car companies owned all of these except Mercedes which owns Chrysler. So Chrysler doing better than Mercedes is odd since they're one and the same company.

Consumer reports...Yes I bought my 1994 Grand Am because Consumer Reports said it was more reliable than most every car in its class - I should have read the Lemon Aid as it was rubbished...Consumer Reports LATER had it as the lemon it was and still is.

The Focus has an awful record in Lemon Aid and good one in Consumer reports...ahh stats from polls...and did I read correctly that we're believing the manufacturers and what they claim is a break down? 20 to 18 even if that is correct is negligable and probably rooted out with a larger poll...like all the people who don't subscribe to consumer reports. Far less people own German cars so I would like to see the actual break down...Ie;the sample size for European cars would be FAR smaller than that of the American cars.

Buyers have figured it out over ten years since Toyota has finally surpassed GM. Though the Americans have figured it out with all the numerous co-productions. The Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe(same car same plant - slightly alrtered body and interior) have gotten good reviews...perhaps mixing the Japanese know-how with the American styling I have said would be best for both entities.

Now if only Ford could somehow stop having their tires blow up because THEY can't design wheels and if they can stop their cars from blowing up on rear impact - Crown Victoria police cars - they might sit better with me. I mean they've been making them long enough and been sued enough time and they STILL have the exact same problems. Jaguar is owned by Ford...and the Jag is a POS. Blaming Europe? Now that I don't get...That's like Disney blaming Euro Disney for making no money...when it was stupid decsion by American owners not to investigate what their market was first.

I have heard various problems with Marantz here as well...one dealer dumped Marantz for repair and lousy customer service in the 1980s brought in Sony and Yammie and they sucked dumped them - then you see a decade later they bring them back and give em another try - Now they carry 3 or even 4 of those major players. Seems to me like it's a cycle - bad runs very possible. Denon marantz is funny because hey they don't care which you buy the moeny goes to the same pot. Sorta like the GM of receivers. I mean they brought out Saturn as a way to distance themselves from themselves - gee hopefully people won't think we're GM. Didn't work but it made a lot of sense.

What in the blue hell were you trying to say?
I've read it several times, most of it doesn't make any sense.

Incidentally, I work for Honda. If you think Japanese vehicles are built better, well, you don't realize that over 90% of our parts are found in our competitors vehicles as well. Cars aren't designed or built my the "manufacturers" anymore, they're assembled. By our own research, US manufactured vehicles hit the service department 2-3 times per 150 visits more than Japanese vehicles, hardly significant. Needless to say were concentrating on value, style, and performance now. Not sure how this made an audio forum, but whatever.
For what it's worth, I trust my Marantz and Yammie way more than a comparably priced Kenwood or Pioneer.

[RGA]

This is my point though at least there are SOME actual numbers for cars. the fact that they're not specific numbers is no help.

If I had a BMW I might bring it in for something totally anal where as with the Cavelier it may be that the transmission fell out --both count as a customer complaint both count as a service -- yet it is obvious which one is a bigger POS. Performance requires more work that is not oging to stop someone from owning a Bugatti...even if it's in the shop every 300km of driving.

I was pointing out that the so called European cars that supposedly suck worse than American cars are OWNED by American companies. BMW and Volkswagen were not mentioned in the article and Mercedes has had issues for over a decade --The Lemon Aid supports Consumer Reports on that count. However the first three years of the Ford Focus the lemon Aid thinks is if not the worst car on the road it's right down there. The American owned Consumer Reports does not seem to indicate that.

The problem is that Consumer Reports is polling subscribers. If they poll 700,000 people maybe 10,000 of them own a European car. The stats finding would have a much smaller sampling of Euro cars and the results far leass meaningfull. Any basic stats course covers this and naturally the American owned newspeaper with American interests lie by omission and readers are too ignorant to find out all of the numbers. And before Woochifer gets on my case by saying I pulled 10,000 out my ass surely even he knows that the big three outsell all of the Euro cars combined by a huge margin WITHIN the the US market. Either way if they don't provide a BREAKDOWN of the numbers it's meaningless.

The Lemon Aid guide typically breaks down the major problems of vehicls rated against the competitors not just from polls by people who buy their books.

There are some good American cars...generally the ones designed or co-produced with the Japanese. In 1996 used car guide there was exactly TWO GM vehicles that were recommended. One was the Chevy Sprint(built by Suzuki) and the Camaro because though it ell apart a lot offered a lot of performance for the money.

The 94 Grand Am I had had 4 or 6 pages JUST to help you fix the rattles. After it was in the shop 6 times in 18 months and talking to the GM repairman I got a few inside scoops on the pracitces of the company starting with a deliberate design to aid in alternator failures and some of the worst computer chips ever built by anyone. If a Beretta's chip fail you're looking at $1800.00Cdn...without the car doesn't run. Same chip in several cars but he referred to the Beretta.

And this V6 grand am could not do the Coquihalla nearly as well as the 4 banger Honda Civic could despite less horsepower and two fewer cylinders. This road is a large multi lane freeway heading to the British Columbia interior on a steep grade. Both were automatics. The Honda had some kind of grade logic allowing it to stay in a lower gear allowing it to make it up hills without losing power. The Grand Am far better off the line but on a grade would shift up at given speeds and on a grade would fall back.

I say better off the line but if you floor it it will steer left into on coming trafic and the whole front end seems to lift off the ground losing road grip. It is not recommended you run more than two power options on a grand am either or the alternator and or electrical system could blow - it did on mine.

You are correct parts are mixed and matched. For instance Genera Motors put out a terrific top grade battery (Delco) - it was rated in the top three I forget the other two. My 96 Civic and friends 94 civic had that Delco battery. The Grand Am however had some no name. Though I was impressed because when my Alternator blew after 3 months I was able to drive all the way home on the battery which was about 3 miles. So at least the batterry held out.

It may sound like I'm basing it all off my own experience but not so though mine has been horrible. I mean the Grand Am"
estimates
18,000KM Spark Plugs (Headlight burn out)
20,000KM brake pads replacement front
25,000KM Power windows (Headlight Burn out)
25,000KM Paint peeling on roof
27,000KM Power door locks
35,000KM Break Pads front replacement wheel bearings re-done - passener seat no longer locking on rollers - rear seat rattling failing to lock in place, rattle all windows, rattle air vents
37,000KM Alternator blown - tires need replacing
40,000KM Power windows fail, cruse control no longer works, air conditioner no longer cold - but kinda works so they won't repair it.
45,000KM - it is discovered that thje rear breaks have never engaged properly on the car because they were put on backward or some such drivel at the plant - this explains high break wear at least
47,000KM Power door locks fail(Can't get into the car...have to crawl through passenger window with tow truck guy helping, emergency break no longer works, rear window defroster fails
53,000KM front break pads gone yet again, anti-lock breaking engages with every break, muffler needs replacing -
Decide time to cut losses before I get into accident and tust that GM has properly designed the seatbelts and or Airbag....judjing by safety ratings it's a death trap so trade in get Honda Civic. GM 54,000km sold.

Honda Civic to 89,000KM

1000KM front light condensation built up - looked kinda ugly.

20,000km emergency break handle glue not sticking so - hard to push the button. Still worked just awkward. Fixed in 20 minutes.

89,000KM sold car 30% left on original break pads.

Buying exteneded warranty:
on GM $2000.00 for a one year 20,000km power train - didn't buy it.

On Honda 2 year bumper to bumper warranty $400.00Cdn to make it a 5 year bumper to bumper. $400.00 more for & year bumper t bumper...not offered on the GM at all.

I should have known then but we learn from our mistakes. The New GM still has that atrocious trunk and the same cheap seats and plastic interiopr with the same drive train...GARBAGE. And it's the high end Cavelier...uggh - Just like Bose ---advertise it to death and if you advertise it they will come.

[kexodusc]

Ah, thanks for clearing that up RGA. A few comments:
I definitely agree with you about the Lemon Aid and Consumer reports. Truth is, they're a very helpful form of free advertising for my company, though they exaggerate Honda's (and I dare say Toyota's) quality track records terribly.
I have no doubt that the Japanese manufacturers actually build a more durable vehicle. However, in my job I come across numerous studies, some internal some public which evaluat the "total cost of ownership" of our vehicles versus our competitors.
There's a few ways to do this, but basically it involves average sale price, and cost of repairs traditionally over a 6 year period (though sometimes you'll see a less meaningful 3 year period). There is a cost factor calculated for the customer's time and frustration that progressively rises as the initial vehicle cost goes up. In these studies, you'll find that GM in particular does quite well. I should give credit to Chrysler, too, they're quality initiative has been something else to watch since 1998 and if you've been following, they've been the manufacturer that's improved their warranties the most. I don't have anything nice to say about Ford, but I own a Mustang that's been cursed, so I'm biased.
Funny you should bring up Cavaliers. They are the leader in their class when referring to "total cost of ownership". I belive the newer Grand Am's finished quite high as well.
Part of the reason is many students and young people purchase them as cheap first cars, and can afford an extra hour or two a year for maintenance.
One final comment, our marketing research still shows that quality is lower on the priority list for most North Americans than other features. In the US, vehicle turnover is about 5 years for the typical family. Warranty's and powertrain coverage generally provide enough coverage. The North American public still feels that US made vehicles offer more performance, better design, and more features at a lower cost at the expense of quality. This may or may not be true as it is quite subjective, but it should help explain to you why people buy American. Honda in has been paying a lot of money to place their products in Hollywood movies and music videos to improve it's image (ahem...the Fast and the Furious). If Bose did this in the audio world they'd be chastised.

[Woochifer]

This is my point though at least there are SOME actual numbers for cars. the fact that they're not specific numbers is no help.

If I had a BMW I might bring it in for something totally anal where as with the Cavelier it may be that the transmission fell out --both count as a customer complaint both count as a service -- yet it is obvious which one is a bigger POS. Performance requires more work that is not oging to stop someone from owning a Bugatti...even if it's in the shop every 300km of driving.

You obviously have very limited understanding of statistical principles. The scenario that you point out is nothing but a hypothetical conjured more out of your imagination than reality. Your opinion over which one is a bigger POS is also just that, unsubstantiated opinion.

I was pointing out that the so called European cars that supposedly suck worse than American cars are OWNED by American companies. BMW and Volkswagen were not mentioned in the article and Mercedes has had issues for over a decade --The Lemon Aid supports Consumer Reports on that count. However the first three years of the Ford Focus the lemon Aid thinks is if not the worst car on the road it's right down there. The American owned Consumer Reports does not seem to indicate that.

Oh, don't let facts spoil a good conspiracy story. BMW WAS mentioned in the linked article (the problems with the 7 series have been reported elsewhere as well), and Volkswagen's reliability problems the past four or so years are well documented in the Consumer Reports auto issue and in the pages of various business magazines that have been predicting that VW's reliability problems might shortcircuit their comeback (and last year, their sales dropped by 12 percent, well above the industrywide decline). And contrary to what you might think, the Ford Focus was on Consumer Reports' list of cars to avoid for the first three years. But, with improved reliability on the newer models, last year they put the Focus on their recommended cars list, because other than the early reliability problems, the Focus was their top rated compact car. And what does Consumer Reports' American ownership have to do with anything? If they had some kind of bias, why would Japanese cars consistently rank highly on their lists?

The problem is that Consumer Reports is polling subscribers. If they poll 700,000 people maybe 10,000 of them own a European car. The stats finding would have a much smaller sampling of Euro cars and the results far leass meaningfull. Any basic stats course covers this and naturally the American owned newspeaper with American interests lie by omission and readers are too ignorant to find out all of the numbers. And before Woochifer gets on my case by saying I pulled 10,000 out my ass surely even he knows that the big three outsell all of the Euro cars combined by a huge margin WITHIN the the US market. Either way if they don't provide a BREAKDOWN of the numbers it's meaningless.

That's a load of horses**t and either you know it and are distorting facts to make an argument, or you truly are clueless about survey research and statistical sampling procedures. First off, you ARE pulling a number out of your ass, so why put it out there in the first place if you just conjured it up with zero factual basis? FYI, the actual market share of European nameplates is about seven percent, and it's not that hard to look that kind of stuff up. (translated that would equate to a sample of about 47,000)

And even if the actual sample figure was 10,000, how is that statistically insignificant? Just because it's lower than the sample for American cars does not mean that the conclusions are compromised. Check your statistics textbook sometime (that is if you've ever read one) and look up the sample size needed for 90, 95, and 98 percent confidence intervals -- it's not that big if your sample is sufficiently random. And just in case you never bothered to actually go through the reliability charts, you might be interested in finding that any model that truly does not have a large enough data sample does not get reported in Consumer Reports' reliability data (just look for where it says "Insufficient Data"). Not knowing the distribution of responses is a nonissue if CU is using a consistently high confidence interval in the sampling. For you to say that Consumer Reports is lying and their readers are ignorant is hypocritical because your post demonstrates far more untruth and ignorance than anything that Consumer Reports has said about auto reliability.

If the CU sample is so insufficient, name me another survey that has a sample size of more than 675,000 respondents if you're so fixated on a higher sampling rate. The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics calculates the U.S. Consumer Price Index based on a survey of 7,500 households. Obviously, the statisticians at the BLS (who are among the best in the field) don't have a problem with that sample size, and the way that those numbers get parsed and cross-tabulated (by income group, by region, by household size, by race/ethnicity, etc.) is much more extensive than what CU does with the automobile reliability ratings.

Have you ever actually done survey research? I can tell you from experience with consumer surveys that the substantive differences drawn from a 1,000 household random sample versus a 10,000 household random sample are basically nonexistent; and even the difference between 100 and 1,000 responses is not that great.

And your little inneuendo about Consumer Reports subscribers and their evil American bias is pretty laughable. As I mentioned earlier, unless Consumer Reports subscribers are buying their cars from a different network of dealers or the cars are manufactured in different plants from the general population, then your objection means absolutely nothing. And a basic statistics class would be more than enough to get an introduction to error analysis and bias suppression. Oh, and BTW, the last time I checked, the cars being surveyed are the ones that are actually sold in America! Of course, that means that an American non-profit organization is the worst possible source to conduct such a study. Gosh, maybe we should call in an African or South American magazine to do an more unbiased or statistically significant survey.

The 94 Grand Am I had had 4 or 6 pages JUST to help you fix the rattles. After it was in the shop 6 times in 18 months and talking to the GM repairman I got a few inside scoops on the pracitces of the company starting with a deliberate design to aid in alternator failures and some of the worst computer chips ever built by anyone. If a Beretta's chip fail you're looking at $1800.00Cdn...without the car doesn't run. Same chip in several cars but he referred to the Beretta.

Hmmm, a survey sample of 675,000 is too small and questionable to draw conclusions from, yet your survey of ONE car IS conclusive! I'm sure your stats professor is proud of you.

[Woochifer]

Well I still only hear hearsay no facts about the audio equipment.

As for cars - I may be out of date with my info but "All Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar and Land Rover" did poorly.

Now I though American car companies owned all of these except Mercedes which owns Chrysler. So Chrysler doing better than Mercedes is odd since they're one and the same company.

Mercedes' trouble began even before the Daimler-Chrysler merger. Their ranking on the JD Power initial quality survey had been on the decline for years after ranking in the top three consistently throughout the 80s and early-90s, and it's been within the past three or four years that it started showing up on Consumer Reports' reliability ratings as well.

Land Rover and other Rover Group models have had reliability problems as long as I can remember, and their past partners before Ford acquired the Land Rover brand in 2000 were BMW and Honda. The Rover Group was responsible for the Sterling, which was basically the British version of the Acura Legend, and even with a Honda platform and drivetrain, the Sterling was one of the most unreliable cars of the 80s.

Audi has a partnership with Volkwagen and has no ties to any American companies. And there have been several write-ups in business publications on the production and reliability problems that Volkwagen has had, and how it threatens to undermine the great sales rebound that the company has had the last few years. You want to go on a lemon hunt, look no further than VW, which has been in the bottom tier of the JD Power rankings for years and the CU data corroborates it.

Consumer reports...Yes I bought my 1994 Grand Am because Consumer Reports said it was more reliable than most every car in its class - I should have read the Lemon Aid as it was rubbished...Consumer Reports LATER had it as the lemon it was and still is.

The Focus has an awful record in Lemon Aid and good one in Consumer reports...ahh stats from polls...and did I read correctly that we're believing the manufacturers and what they claim is a break down? 20 to 18 even if that is correct is negligable and probably rooted out with a larger poll...like all the people who don't subscribe to consumer reports. Far less people own German cars so I would like to see the actual break down...Ie;the sample size for European cars would be FAR smaller than that of the American cars.

What data source does Lemon Aid use? My recollection from a prior thread is that they don't even track every model for every year. That would indicate that they are working from secondary data sources, which they would need to independently verify. It seems very simplistic.

Your comments on the Focus aren't factually correct either. CU has always rated the Focus highly based on its performance and subjective evaluations, but they did not recommend it during its first three years because of reliability problems. The last two model years, the reliability has improved enough for them to recommend the model.

And your comments on statistics don't really indicate a well grounded understanding of sampling procedures and survey research. First off, CU's car reliability ratings are based on a sample of 700,000 responses, which in any kind of survey research would constitute an exceptionally large sample. It doesn't matter one bit that the respondents are primarily Consumer Reports subscribers, provided that the pool of vehicles represented in the survey is a sufficiently random sample from different production facilities and production runs.

Any model that does not have a large enough sample to meet the confidence interval that they specify, they exclude from the reliability rankings. In a random survey, you only need a sample of about 25-30 responses to meet a confidence level of at least 90%. EVERY model that they report on meets their standard for statistical validity, and I believe that their stats rely on a fairly high degree of rigor before it gets reported. The CU survey methodology is valid because they maintain control over the survey distribution and data collection. This certain seems more comparable than whatever source Lemon Aid is using, since they seem to rely on industry generated data that may or may not have identical reporting formats and categorical protocols.

The only survey I'm aware of that has more extensive coverage than the CU survey is the JD Power survey, which bases its rankings on more than a million responses. (I got one when I bought my Acura, and my parents got the JD Power surveys for their Toyota and VW) In general, if you're looking for indications on things to come, the JD Power survey is a good source for spotting potential trends, like when Mercedes started dropping down the ranking and Cadillac moved up. The Consumer Reports reliability ratings typically confirm the JD Power trends a few years later.

Buyers have figured it out over ten years since Toyota has finally surpassed GM. Though the Americans have figured it out with all the numerous co-productions. The Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe(same car same plant - slightly alrtered body and interior) have gotten good reviews...perhaps mixing the Japanese know-how with the American styling I have said would be best for both entities.

So, are you saying that the mass market always gravitates to the best products? If so, then the genius of Bose's mass market success must say something about their product quality as well.

Now if only Ford could somehow stop having their tires blow up because THEY can't design wheels and if they can stop their cars from blowing up on rear impact - Crown Victoria police cars - they might sit better with me. I mean they've been making them long enough and been sued enough time and they STILL have the exact same problems. Jaguar is owned by Ford...and the Jag is a POS. Blaming Europe? Now that I don't get...That's like Disney blaming Euro Disney for making no money...when it was stupid decsion by American owners not to investigate what their market was first.

Now, you're getting into the ridiculous exaggerations. First off, aside from the much publicized Ford Explorer fitted with Firestone tires, what other Ford models have had problems with tires blowing up? If it's the wheels that were at fault (and Ford buys their wheels from a lot of the same outsource suppliers as other car companies), then how come identical Explorer models with Goodyear tires had lower failure rates? And all that stuff about police cars blowing up, it's hard to do any kind of comparison considering that the Ford Crown Victoria is the ONLY police interceptor being marketed in North America right now. Do you know that these exploding police cars are doing so because of a design defect or because of how those police cars get driven? I got news for you ... ANY car can and will explode if it gets into a collision at high speeds.

Your whole attempt to excuse European car makers and somehow blame American ownership for their slide into mediocrity is really grasping at straws. Jaguar was a very unreliable car when they were under British ownership. The most famous trait of vintage Jags was that the British designers could never figure out how to keep those things from leaking oil. At least under Ford ownership, the engine blocks don't leak anymore.

The problem with European cars is that they did not keep up with the rest of the industry. Mercedes is attempting to compete in a global market, yet they have not fundamentally changed how they design new models, which is akin to reinventing the wheel ever new model run. Because of their much higher R&D costs, they've decided to maintain their profit margins per car by basically cheapening and cutting corners on the materials used, which has been discussed at length on Mercedes message boards for about the last five years. Lexus passed Mercedes by designing their cars around a price target, and using shared components from previous Lexus models or other Toyotas if necessary.

BMW held steady, but their new 5 and 7 series models have had early production problems, especially in the electrical systems, which are basically introducing a lot of new and unproven technologies.

If you actually read that article that I posted, you'll note that 20 years ago, the American car makers had a defect rate that was more than double what the European car makers showed. Since then, the European car makers have lowered their defect from about 50/100 vehicles to 20/100 vehicles; however, American car makers have lowered their defect rate from over 100/100 vehicles to 18/100 vehicles. If anything, the American car makers had adapted to global competition, while European car makers have let their guard down.

I have heard various problems with Marantz here as well...one dealer dumped Marantz for repair and lousy customer service in the 1980s brought in Sony and Yammie and they sucked dumped them - then you see a decade later they bring them back and give em another try - Now they carry 3 or even 4 of those major players. Seems to me like it's a cycle - bad runs very possible. Denon marantz is funny because hey they don't care which you buy the moeny goes to the same pot. Sorta like the GM of receivers. I mean they brought out Saturn as a way to distance themselves from themselves - gee hopefully people won't think we're GM. Didn't work but it made a lot of sense.

First off, some history about Marantz (which you seem to be missing here). Marantz was an American company owned by Saul Marantz that primarily sold separates and tube components, until the mid-70s when the company was sold to Superscope, and that was when they shifted their R&D and manufacturing to Japan. It stayed there until Philips acquired the consumer unit in the 80s. Two years ago, Denon was acquired by a holding company, and a few months later, that holding company bought out most of Philips' share of Marantz.

You're basically spinning a load about the Denon/Marantz ownership, because both companies have maintained separate R&D facilities and use different outsource manufacturers. That might be changing since D&M Holdings is now setting up a separate manufacturing subsidiary, presumably to merge Denon and Marantz' manufacturing operations under one roof. And McIntosh is now owned by the same company, yet you don't see huge changes to their product line and their manufacturing continues to originate from the same U.S. facility as before.

You say that things go in cycles, but the thing is that some manufacturers have had more problematic production runs than others. Yamaha for example has never gone into a problematic cycle where they would just crank out one bad run after another. Denon has also been very good over the years at keeping away from big problems. Sometimes it is luck of the draw, but other times you have glaring patterns like some of Sony's DE series receivers, or the Marantz SR-7200 which had a design defect in the power supply that made its way into the early production models, or the reliability problems that h/k had in their receivers once they started outsourcing their manufacturing.

And to the contrary, the GM brand is not as universally reviled as your wishful thinking would indicate. So, you bought a lemon from them, get over it! That was 10 years ago. All of GM's advertising puts Saturn into the GM family, along with Saab and Hummer. Saturn has never ran from their GM ownership. Their brand loyalty stems from a whole other slew of factors related to the buying experience that are different from every other car company out there. Saturn's owner satisfaction ratings are up there with Lexus, and it's not entirely because the cars are the best, but rather because of the buying experience.

[RGA]

Continued from last post - I love cars where the wheels fall off - wrap me up a focus....have a I driven a Ford lately? Thank heaven - if I want to risk my life I'd rather jump from planes.


Ford's Trouble Prone Focus Hit With Safety Recalls & Investigations

With 9 safety recalls to date and 6 defect investigations, the Ford Focus is proving to be an embarrassment to Ford Motor Company and its new President William Clay Ford, who are trying to stress quality in the wake of the Ford Explorer/Firestone ATX, Wilderness AT tire debacle.

Not since General Motors introduced its ill-fated X-car in 1980 (Buick Skylark, Chevrolet Citation, Oldsmobile Omega and Pontiac Phoenix) which had 13 recalls in its first two years has a manufacturer had so many recalls. Among the Focus recalls are 351,000 2000 models whose roof pillars can cause head injuries in crashes and 203,700 2000 models whose left rear wheel falls off.

The Focus' sinking reputation was further hammered hard by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's announcement of 6 major investigations from February to May 2002. Evening up the wheel problem, NHTSA launched a new investigation into wheels falling off the 2000 models, only this time it was both right and left rear wheels. Airbags that deployed inadvertently and that burned drivers were the subjects of two investigation in 2000-01 models. The 2000 model was hit with a investigation into engine compartment fires, which has now been upgraded to cover 2001-02 models as well. 2000-01 models are being investigated for engine stalling. 2000-2002 models are under investigation for collapse of the front suspension.

In November 1999, CAS wrote then Chairman William Clay Ford and warned him about Ford overall reputation for poor quality and covering up defects to avoid recalls. The Focus fiasco shows Mr. Ford has a long row to hoe before he can restore some of the luster to his great grandfather's company."

[wasch_24]

Hey, RGA.

Maybe you should sign up for a membership on carreview.com.

Just scroll down and click on the link.

[Hivihead]

I owned a '89 Honda Accord till Mar '03. 243,000 miles in 14 years. Still original engine and transmission. No need for rebuilt yet when I sold it. I had the head gasket changed at around 190,000 miles. I think the '80s japanese cars are more reliable as Q/C back then has something to do with it. And it was made in Japan. Not in Ohio like today's Accords and Civics(though not 100% are). Now I have a Mercedes CLK. It is running fine as well. So far so good...
Same to audio. My Denon 2802 is doing its job, thank you. I have AML last year and now sitting at home, recovering from the transplant. I turn the Denon on and watch movies, playing SOCOM II online, XBOX Live...you name it. I have it on all day. And it runs around the clock for months. Through my B&W 6.1 speakers, they sound fantastic. The mids are B&W's strong point. I do like Marantz if you listen to music a lot. In one box, the SR series is the one you have to auditon. I know the SR-12S1 is out of your range, but you'll be amazed how good it sounds, comparing to the Yamaha's DSP-ZS9.

[Woochifer]

Continued from last post - I love cars where the wheels fall off - wrap me up a focus....have a I driven a Ford lately? Thank heaven - if I want to risk my life I'd rather jump from planes.

Oh what a piece of work you go through just to avoid admitting that you don't know squat about statistics and how survey research is conducted! All of your quotes are covering the Focus models that Consumer Reports did not recommend, so I have no idea what you're trying to prove, other than avoid my questions about how CU's 675,000 response pool cannot generate statistically significant findings on European car reliability. (Hey, you were the one who brought up what gets taught in basics stats courses, so I figured that you'd actually taken one and would know what it takes to create a statistically significant sample) Spinning the subject and avoiding my questions does not make your original points any less untruthful and/or atrociously illogical than they are.

I mean, you complain about CU's conclusions that are based on a viable and reliable survey form that's consistent from year to year, and based on one of the largest consumer survey samples anywhere. The data being reported is consistent, the minimum confidence levels are consistent, and the reporting methodology is consistent.

Instead, you rely on the Lemon Aid guide that was culled together through inconsistent data sources ("confidential" sources, complaints, etc.) that may or may not be comparable from model to model, and might be no better than hearsay. Plus, their survey of models is incomplete. Maybe they are a good source, maybe they aren't. But, judging from what I've seen so far, their methodology is too subjective and leaves too many data gaps to be consistent. It makes for nice anecdotal conversation, but for anything approaching statistical rigor, it looks pretty thin.

Do you REALLY think it's safer to jump out of airplanes than to drive a Ford Focus? I guess you've never sought a job as an actuary. That would make for rather amusing conversation if you ever got interviewed for such a position.

[RGA]

You say I don't provide proof about the Fire issue - I did - you're wrong too bad too sad. Focus is a POS Consumer reports recommended them when they came out...provide the first issue please that says otherwise. The Focus when it came out was well reviewed by almost everyone - car of the year in Europe to boot.

Polling customers is meaningless without all of the pertinant information. If you knew thing one about statistics which it appears you don't simply taking polls is not enough unless you provide a breakdown of what EXACTLY went wrong...polling the companies is completely useless as they're as untrustworthy an entity as it gets.

Statistically relevance is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS better especially in a poll methodology with MORE trials...which is why you didn't answer my question If 1000 is as good as 10,000 then why did CR bother to do 675,000. Because more is best. if 650,000 were done on American cars versus 25,000.00 for the rest it makes a difference period. There is nothing wrong with wanting to know the details of a poll now is there - according to you I insult the integrity of CR if I dare ask for a statistical breakdown - like what kind of problems 20 versus 18 is barely anything...and if it is truly atrocious to have this kind of difference - then 18(american) to 12(Japanese) is absolutely horrendous which would then prove that it's FAR better to go Japanese. I am not defending Euro Cars because they are not particularly well reviewed in the Lemon Aid. Most Mercededs are not recommended, nor Land Rover, nor Jaguar. BMW fairs better(On certain cars) because they offer performance - and with performance comes repair work.

What I want to know is how many are serious problems versus the non serious kind - a break down of the age of drivers for cars because it is shown that Younger people are more reckless statistically than are middle aged and increases again with older people.

All of those isues impact the car's breakdown rates. You drive it into the ground then it's going to have problems no matter what it is. The Civic hatchback and Ford Mustang in Canada is extremely popular with 16 year old first time drivers - I'd like to see comparative stats on cars owned by 16-21 year olds. We know the Civic overall is an outstanding car in this regard but not too many in this age bracket buy Toyota Tercels. These two a while ago were Tercel in first place Civic in second for repair histories in this class...but the swing for the Tercel may have been because of not being a popular car AT ALL amongst first time teens. and very popular with starter families. Without knowing the statistical breakdowns you may as well be watching the graphs on tv as to why you should buy this dish detergent. The graph is 9 feet high compared t the other graph but the percentage on the side(if you can read it) says 1000 dishes cleaned while the other cleans 1001 dishes...but the graph makes it LOOK like detergent X cleans 900 times the amount.

I never defended the Euro cars I simply mentioned that I believed that Americans owned some of those companies...Which Ford does - Jaguar. Jag has an atrocious record. Then YOU cover for Ford by saying Jaguar was a lousy car before Ford took them over as if to say that I thought they were good. No, they have always sucked...my point is now then that they sucked no matter who owned them(Ford sure didn't fix the problem now have they)...SO lets's look to see why - anal customers who send 20 complaints in over something that another car owner would not complain about at all. ---WHAT is the complaint? Lemon Aid does take customer complaint polls but they don't stack their stats solely on those numbers. What are the problems? I send my ar in for the sticky E-brake handle glue - that's one service - my friend who brings is Sunfire in for a Transmission replacement is one service complaint. What is the 20 versus 18. I'll take 20 minor problems over 18 major ones. Those numbers may be the opposite too...but I would like to know otherwise the number doesn't mean anything. I wouldn't mind a stat on percentage of recalls either. That requires no half assed polling. Polls also have bias issues on the way questions are asked...I'm sure you knew that when you took the psych courses but it's a skewable issue and a weakness of polls.

Ford 2001 Focus car of the year and recommended doesn't help all the engine fires and numerous other recalls. Initial quality tests don't help because unless the engine catches fire in the review then hey all things are a go for a good review (0-90 days whoah that helps). Why should anyone believe that Ford has fixed their Focus? Convince me that the 2004 model is better than the 2000-2003 models and won't have the same problems in the same numbers(Initial quality revies can't). There is a reason Consumer Reports had Good to EXCELLENT all across the line for my Pontac Grand Am in 1994 then 3 years later the thing reads like a solid black inkblock of the crap that it was.

I went by Consumer Reports who gave it glowing reviews and "Much better build quality than the previous models" blah blah blah. Ooops no sorry they ain't. Should have read the Lemon Aid which I did a few months later which warned of the crap at the outset. Ford has had all these fire problems for so many years and with so many models that they begin to become a laughing stock...even if they finally build a good car so do other companies ... why take the risk that because CR says the 2004 model is good because they drove it around and a wheel didn't fall off like the old ones that hay problem's fixed buy this car. It isn't even good when it works...the review by JD Power gave the comfort and power etc ratings 2 and 3 out of five...adding to the less than good mecahnical ratings and the fire history of the vehicles you'd have to be a total moron - provided you know all of this information ahed of time - to actually buy one of those piles of kaka. Especially when the lots here have Honda Civics for LESS money????? WTF Even he Neon another mess is going for 1-2K MORE. No wonder the Civic is the best selling car in Canada.

I have a friend who works at Ford and I saw their internal customer satisfaction polls (versus ALL the other dealers in British Columbia) versus Honda. Honda's dealers ran from 95%-100% and involved any servicing number of servicing quality of servicing initial purchase stisfaction. Ford had posters giving award to a delaer that could get to 60%. Most were in the 30-50% range. If anything Ford is better than GM overall and Chrysler - well judjing by their CEO's comment in my last thread he basically admits his cars are junk...which of course they are.

[Woochifer]

You say I don't provide proof about the Fire issue - I did - you're wrong too bad too sad. Focus is a POS Consumer reports recommended them when they came out...provide the first issue please that says otherwise. The Focus when it came out was well reviewed by almost everyone - car of the year in Europe to boot.

Try CU's auto issues that came out after the first reliability reports rolled in. Whenever they make any kind of recommendation on a new vehicle, they ALWAYS preface that by saying that the reliability data has not come in yet, and if the reliability comes up negative, they pull the recommendation. The VW New Beetle and Mercedes M-class come to mind as other models where they've done this.

Polling customers is meaningless without all of the pertinant information. If you knew thing one about statistics which it appears you don't simply taking polls is not enough unless you provide a breakdown of what EXACTLY went wrong...polling the companies is completely useless as they're as untrustworthy an entity as it gets.

Give me f**kin break! Your holy bible Lemon Aid does not have ANY statistical validation for the defects that they list. Nor is there any consistency in how data is collected from vehicle to vehicle. And now you're giving a lecture on how to conduct survey research? At least Consumer Reports will tell the reader when there is insufficient data to make a conclusion about a specific model.

Consumer Reports is NOT an academic journal, they are a consumer magazine, and I doubt you'll find any other statistical tables in ANY consumer oriented magazine that contains a full accounting of how the statistical analysis was done. Your demand for some kind of full accounting of the results presumes that consumers want to thumb through hundreds of pages worth of error analysis and meaningless anecdotal accounts.

Statistically relevance is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS better especially in a poll methodology with MORE trials...which is why you didn't answer my question If 1000 is as good as 10,000 then why did CR bother to do 675,000. Because more is best. if 650,000 were done on American cars versus 25,000.00 for the rest it makes a difference period. There is nothing wrong with wanting to know the details of a poll now is there - according to you I insult the integrity of CR if I dare ask for a statistical breakdown - like what kind of problems 20 versus 18 is barely anything...and if it is truly atrocious to have this kind of difference - then 18(american) to 12(Japanese) is absolutely horrendous which would then prove that it's FAR better to go Japanese. I am not defending Euro Cars because they are not particularly well reviewed in the Lemon Aid. Most Mercededs are not recommended, nor Land Rover, nor Jaguar. BMW fairs better(On certain cars) because they offer performance - and with performance comes repair work.

Once again, your inability to comprehend basic statistical theory and all too apparent desire to exaggerate and sensationalize is showing. You know why CU goes with a sample of 675,000? Because that annual survey goes out to ALL of their subscribers! And that large a sample allows them to do comparisons between different model years and create statistically significant samples for most of the car models on the road.

That 675,000 response pool is divided among over 100 different car models and tracked over a five-year trend. That large pool ensures that you can parse the data down to model and year, and still achieve statistically significant results for the majority of models on the road. Anything that CAN meet their minimum statistical significance threshold gets reported, and anything that CANNOT is reported as insufficient data. What part of that don't you understand? If we were talking about ONE car model from ONE model year, then the statistical difference between a 1,000 car random sample versus a 10,000 car random sample would not matter.

You're basically hurling every bit of crap that you can at CU for actually saying that American car makers have caught up with European car makers. Why all the hatred? This is no shocking news story if you've seen how the trends have played out the past few years -- it was only a matter of time.

What I want to know is how many are serious problems versus the non serious kind - a break down of the age of drivers for cars because it is shown that Younger people are more reckless statistically than are middle aged and increases again with older people.

All of those isues impact the car's breakdown rates. You drive it into the ground then it's going to have problems no matter what it is. The Civic hatchback and Ford Mustang in Canada is extremely popular with 16 year old first time drivers - I'd like to see comparative stats on cars owned by 16-21 year olds. We know the Civic overall is an outstanding car in this regard but not too many in this age bracket buy Toyota Tercels. These two a while ago were Tercel in first place Civic in second for repair histories in this class...but the swing for the Tercel may have been because of not being a popular car AT ALL amongst first time teens. and very popular with starter families. Without knowing the statistical breakdowns you may as well be watching the graphs on tv as to why you should buy this dish detergent. The graph is 9 feet high compared t the other graph but the percentage on the side(if you can read it) says 1000 dishes cleaned while the other cleans 1001 dishes...but the graph makes it LOOK like detergent X cleans 900 times the amount.

Good luck trying to generate any kind of statistically significant sampling with all that parsing and cross-tabulating that you're looking for. And better luck trying to get those types of survey results into any kind of readable form that makes sense to anybody. Bringing all these irrelevant externalities into the discussion just exposes the lack of first hand experience that you have with any kind of survey research.

Trying to equate CU's data reporting with dishwashing commercials is patently ridiculous exaggeration, and just another untruth among the many that you've spread into this thread.

I never defended the Euro cars I simply mentioned that I believed that Americans owned some of those companies...Which Ford does - Jaguar. Jag has an atrocious record. Then YOU cover for Ford by saying Jaguar was a lousy car before Ford took them over as if to say that I thought they were good. No, they have always sucked...my point is now then that they sucked no matter who owned them(Ford sure didn't fix the problem now have they)...SO lets's look to see why - anal customers who send 20 complaints in over something that another car owner would not complain about at all. ---WHAT is the complaint? Lemon Aid does take customer complaint polls but they don't stack their stats solely on those numbers. What are the problems? I send my ar in for the sticky E-brake handle glue - that's one service - my friend who brings is Sunfire in for a Transmission replacement is one service complaint. What is the 20 versus 18. I'll take 20 minor problems over 18 major ones. Those numbers may be the opposite too...but I would like to know otherwise the number doesn't mean anything. I wouldn't mind a stat on percentage of recalls either. That requires no half assed polling. Polls also have bias issues on the way questions are asked...I'm sure you knew that when you took the psych courses but it's a skewable issue and a weakness of polls.

Oh, the mark of desperation. 20 minor ones versus 18 major ones? Please. Where's your proof that this scenario is at all anything other than your own sensationalist imagination at work? Again, it's all assumption, conjecture, unsupportable exaggeration, etc. Times change, and long held stereotypes need to step aside as reality and facts creep into the picture -- deal with it.

Your point about recalls is weak because it's the discretion of the auto maker as to whether or not they issue a general recall, or just quietly alert service managers about a potential problem. My Acura has never been recalled, but I can tell you that there have been service alerts that needed extended checkups or part replacement when I brought the vehicle in for servicing, including a distributor problem that left me stranded 200 miles from home a few years ago on the 4th of July (the alert on that problem came up a few months later, too late to help me though).

Bias is a valid objection (as I'm sure you'll agree about the validity of sighted audio listenings), but from having taken part in the CU auto reliability survey in the past, I can tell you that it is one of the better done consumer surveys that I've seen. The language is neutral in tone, and the problem categories are discretely laid out with very clear descriptions of what types of problems belong in which blanks. If you've never seen the CU survey form before, then you have zero basis for mouthing off about bias or skewedness or "half-assed polling."

Ford 2001 Focus car of the year and recommended doesn't help all the engine fires and numerous other recalls. Initial quality tests don't help because unless the engine catches fire in the review then hey all things are a go for a good review (0-90 days whoah that helps). Why should anyone believe that Ford has fixed their Focus? Convince me that the 2004 model is better than the 2000-2003 models and won't have the same problems in the same numbers(Initial quality revies can't). There is a reason Consumer Reports had Good to EXCELLENT all across the line for my Pontac Grand Am in 1994 then 3 years later the thing reads like a solid black inkblock of the crap that it was.

I went by Consumer Reports who gave it glowing reviews and "Much better build quality than the previous models" blah blah blah. Ooops no sorry they ain't. Should have read the Lemon Aid which I did a few months later which warned of the crap at the outset. Ford has had all these fire problems for so many years and with so many models that they begin to become a laughing stock...even if they finally build a good car so do other companies ... why take the risk that because CR says the 2004 model is good because they drove it around and a wheel didn't fall off like the old ones that hay problem's fixed buy this car. It isn't even good when it works...the review by JD Power gave the comfort and power etc ratings 2 and 3 out of five...adding to the less than good mecahnical ratings and the fire history of the vehicles you'd have to be a total moron - provided you know all of this information ahed of time - to actually buy one of those piles of kaka. Especially when the lots here have Honda Civics for LESS money????? WTF Even he Neon another mess is going for 1-2K MORE. No wonder the Civic is the best selling car in Canada.

I have a friend who works at Ford and I saw their internal customer satisfaction polls (versus ALL the other dealers in British Columbia) versus Honda. Honda's dealers ran from 95%-100% and involved any servicing number of servicing quality of servicing initial purchase stisfaction. Ford had posters giving award to a delaer that could get to 60%. Most were in the 30-50% range. If anything Ford is better than GM overall and Chrysler - well judjing by their CEO's comment in my last thread he basically admits his cars are junk...which of course they are.

So you bought a lemon! Big friggin' deal! So your personal experience was lousy, but does that mean that EVERYBODY who's ever bought an American car shares your viewpoint? And does it mean that because Pontiac built a lousy model in 1994, that they and EVERY OTHER American car maker would build nothing but lousy cars from then into eternity? Check the pretzel logic and personal bias at the door if you want to argue statistics, you might actually learn something.

[RGA]

Typical of your continual bias and straw mans. RE: 20 versus 18...instead of inventing my position try reading and thinking too tough for you it would seem.

Sneak into any Ford dealer's results of customer satisfaction - I was there I saw it - that was three years ago seriously doubtmuch has changed.

Car recalls can be federally demanded or demanded by state on safety issues...not determined by the manufacturer...you would hope the manufacturer would do it themselves but that would take corporate responsibility and they - Ford mainly - has proven a disinterest in lives over profit...with the exact same fir issues spanning many models over now 3 decades my conclusion is simple they are clueless...why you would support proven beyond any doubt their heinous practices is ridiculous. The fact their sales rank for an ex big three is number five in the largest market car seller outside trucks and SUV's is proving customers despite CR are not stupid.

BTW it would take a one page summary of the breakdown of their statistical analysis. Engine/transmission/ body are arguably the most high ticket brakdowns on a car. Rear tailight, e-break handle glue, interior cloth issues are minor in comparison. CR does break down each componant to their credit -as does Lemon Aid.

As usual to support your CR blathering you state that Lemon doesn't have "any consistency in how data is collected from vehicle to vehicle. And now you're giving a lecture on how to conduct survey research?"

Man you like to dream stuff up - they provide FAR more information than CR about the cars. You won't see the recall and horrendously CRAPPY Ford safety in CR despite the fact that they've been crappy for 30 years in this regard.

Lemon Aid:
Ratings are based upon over 700,000 owners reports, government-recorded safety complaints, and confidential automaker service bulletins. It's the only publication that lists hundreds of secret warranties and service tips now in effect for 1987-2002 cars and minivans. Lemon-Aid will tell you exactly what may go wrong today or tomorrow with your present vehicle or the one you may purchase. And, if repairs are needed, you will have the needed service bulletins to shop around for the cheapest repairs possible. Lemon-Aid also gives you:

A fresh, iconoclastic, "in your face" attitude formed from over thirty-one years of consumer advocacy in the trenches.
An expose of safety features that kill (airbags and anti-lock brakes)
Crashworthiness data going back a decade
Secret warranty summaries with reprinted bulletins as proof
Summarized service bulletins to get right to the problem
Specific prices for more models and years
A section dealing with the best and worst used vehicles over three decades
Legal information to help you gain an out of-court settlement and sample complaint letters/faxes A list of great Internet gripe sites Almost 500 pages in a pocket-book format Background

Their main objective, to inform and protect consumers in an industry known for its dishonesty and exaggerated claims, remains unchanged. However, these guides also focus on warranties and confidential service bulletins that automakers swear don't exist. That's why you'll be interested in finding the exact bulletin, memo, or news clipping reproduced from the original so neither the dealer nor automaker can weasel out of its obligations.

The Lemon-Aid guide's information is gathered throughout the year from owner complaints, whistle blowers, lawsuits, and judgments, as well as from confidential manufacturer service bulletins.

Each year, we target generic vehicle defects and abusive auto industry practices. After warning readers, we then demand that automakers extend their warranties to pay for factory mistakes. For example, last year we highlighted Chrysler's engine headgaket, automatic transmission, paint, and brake problems, and Ford and GM engine intake manifold, automatic transmission, paint delamination and peeling problems. Additionally we downrated Honda and Toyota after noting a decline in their quality control.

Following Lemon-Aid's urging, all three Detroit automakers paid off thousands of powertrain and paint claims on six year or older vehicles extended their warranties (secretly) and lost some important small claims cases, as well.

Even Toyota and Honda, unhappy with Lemon-Aid's lowered rating, decided last year to extend their powertrain warranties up to 8 years for engine and automatic transmission failures on 1997-2002 vehicles.

The latest 2003-04 Lemon-Aid guides make a critical comparison of 1990-2003 cars, trucks, SUVs, and minivans and safer, cheaper, and more reliable alternatives are given for each vehicle (see the sample Ford Taurus and Sable and Chrysler minivan ratings taken from the early guides).

Points are also given for crash test results and for the availability of essential safety features. Performance comparison tests and a list of essential accessories are only a sampling of the wealth of material you have at your fingertips. Lemon-Aid combines test results with owner complaints, Internet postings, and surveys to determine its ratings.

Phil Edmonston
January 2003

Bonus is even more surveys than CR. Also, where did I ever say thet Europe was a bastian of quality. The article you presented blasts Eupoean cars with 20 defects versus 18 American ... hardly a huge difference to start with. Lumping all cars together as European versus American is not help either genius. At the very least I would like to know which performed better or worse...maybe BMW is 15 and Volkswagen is 27? The USA today of course isn't bright enough to provide the reader any sort of facts but rather purport broad generalizations. The exact same broad generalizations that you accuse me of - but at least I'm not writing for a newspaper where objectivity is supposedly a requirment over ramblings on forums. Hell Jaguar, Mercedes and Land Rover could be pulling the entire European number into the gutter for all we know. And we simply don't know do we?

American cars have a number of good models in Lemon Aid - but over the entire range they are certainly crap compared to the Japanese - presumably you didn't buy Acura for no reason...they cost more are not very big vehicles you'll find more power in a NA car for cheaper? The fact the American counterpart would proably be in the shop twice as often or nearly so must have come into the equation somewhere - or happened to be a nice coincidence.

You keep saying my one bad experience with a 94 grand am...HARDLY - you look at the CR of that Car...I'm not the only one...MOST people have the exact same story to tell. ****ty paint jobs lousy transmission, horrible steering engines, electrical systems, and abysmal safety is not relegated to one car it's the ENTIRE run. if you don't have a tirade of numerous problems with it you're in the minority and fluked out - even CR supports that. The words of the idiot running Chrysler basically admits that 90% of his cars are junk compared to the Japanese and 10% are as good...THINK this is the f***ing guy who runs the f***ing company and he even KNOWS his cars were a POS that are mostly O.K. And hell their cars seem to come under less blasting than Ford or GM even in CR. What must their CEO's say?

[dotcom]

Agree with woodman above. Yamaha smokes the competition - Sony Marantz Denon Onkyo & Pioneer. Check out the RX-V2400 rated at around 100 watts x 6.