Why I'm a bad audiophile

[Florian]

To emorphien and Kai,

did it upset you that i said that BOSE, Paradigm and B&W all sound the same to me?
If so, then i am sorry. But to me they are the same when it comes to box resonances, different drivers (which reminds of the idiotic post from Kex because even if they behave differently at frequency varioations then its still better to use the same material instead of using many different ones which add another layer of BS), time alignmet porblems, small radiation size and high mass.

:-)

Nothing snobbish about it, i would take the 550$ Maggie over any B&W, Paradigm or BOSE.

PS: You will soon see Wooch jump in, then maybe Topspeed and maybe RGA....after all Kex. is here too. Just wait a bit, you will see what i speak of. (the ANTI-Quality police and the ANTI-DIfferent-Than-A-BOX-Police)

[PAT.P]

Thanks for yet unother factless, pointless and idiot post Kex...it only further depends the opinion and the lack of respect of your knowledge we have on this forum about you. Yes i mention we, i am not alone. And while you at it, we can add Wooch. who copies and pastes articles.

-Flo

Flo if your speakers are so great ,why are you putting a $3500 on a crossover.Is this changing the spec of the original.

[Florian]

Flo if your speakers are so great ,why are you putting a $3500 on a crossover.Is this changing the spec of the original.

Because my goal is not the price, but to further improve something. Apogee saved too, even on a system like that. Genesis saves money, so does Jadis. I tweak where i can. Besides, the "IF" is not needed in your question. ;-)

[kexodusc]

Is that the best you can do?

You accused me of making specific statements. I called you out on it. Here's your chance to really put me in my place and get the last laugh. Provide some evidence to support your assertions.

If you cannot, I kindly ask you to remove my name from your accusations.

[Florian]

Is that the best you can do?

You accused me of making specific statements. I called you out on it. Here's your chance to really put me in my place and get the last laugh. Provide some evidence to support your assertions.

If you cannot, I kindly ask you to remove my name from your accusations.

On second thought, your not worth my time. You have neither the knowledge nor anything to prove me wrong. I will follow the other members advice and simple ignore you just like i do with Wooch....and what i write stays.

[kexodusc]

On second thought, your not worth my time. You have neither the knowledge nor anything to prove me wrong. I will follow the other members advice and simple ignore you just like i do with Wooch....and what i write stays.

Well, when you and your other members are ready to come out of the closet and validate your claims, you might earn some credibility. Thanks for answering Flo.

[PAT.P]

Because my goal is not the price, but to further improve something. Apogee saved too, even on a system like that. Genesis saves money, so does Jadis. I tweak where i can. Besides, the "IF" is not needed in your question. ;-)

So their really not the "HOLLY GRAIL" after all .

[GMichael]

Mike walks in to say hi to everyone. He sees all the objects flying around the room crashing onto the walls. Gives the water cooler a push and walks out.

[Florian]

So their really not the "HOLLY GRAIL" after all .

Why dont you visit me?

[Florian]

Hey Kex...we are not in the closet. Did you see that the people with lots of dedication, time and money invested dont talk with you and Wooch?

[Feanor]

Settle down, Flo. And be polite if not respectful.

If we're not good enough for you, why not frequent AA? There are people there who will put you in your place quick enough.

[Florian]

Settle down, Flo. And be polite if not respectful.

If we're not good enough for you, why not frequent AA? There are people there who will put you in your place quick enough.

Give me one reason why i should be nice to the people who are not nice to me? And put me in my place, hardly. I freqent a forum where there are no discussions like this. Where there are no fights or silly battles and the MUSIC comes first.

Where was I inpolite?

Why dont you write something when they call me a snob, a piece of ****? Where are the mods then? I am one of the most helpfull members on here, but i get condemmed for recommending something most on here dont have?

[emorphien]

To emorphien and Kai,

did it upset you that i said that BOSE, Paradigm and B&W all sound the same to me?
If so, then i am sorry. But to me they are the same when it comes to box resonances, different drivers (which reminds of the idiotic post from Kex because even if they behave differently at frequency varioations then its still better to use the same material instead of using many different ones which add another layer of BS), time alignmet porblems, small radiation size and high mass.

Not at all, you can include Bose if you want. It just makes you sound more arrogant to include Bose in any list of respectable (but perhaps mass market or boxy) speakers.

The main thing is if you state all those box speakers sound the same, you're oversimplifying and simply speaking down to everyone who has "box" speakers and being simply disrespectful. You can say they all have some of the same limitations, but paradigms, B&Ws, Axioms, AV123 (another ID but I know little about them) all have some distinctly audible differences between them. The way you talk, and your wording makes it sound like either they're all trash and sound like tinny walky talkies or you don't know what you're talking about and don't have an ear to appreciate the differences between them.

Which brings me full circle to what I've said before, perhaps that's not your message and perhaps you aren't bragging when you volunteer information about how much you like to spend on things, but you sure could find some better ways to communicate it.

[Woochifer]

Well well well, yet another productive thread that Florian has taken into the crapper. I would respond directly, but Florian has gone on record as saying that he does not read any of my posts.

Building an audio system from scratch...

That might explain why he continually and repeatedly lies about the posts that I've made and the topics that I bring up. Since he does not read what I have to say, I'll go ahead and take his points up from a third person perspective.

Often a question is raised about a 600$ speaker which is already pretty expensive and there is a comment made by Woochiever, RGA, Kex etc.. where they seem to tell the new member that this Paradigm and Axiom will deliver the same sound quality then a State of the Art system for far less money. For instance, "Magnepan vs. BOSE" threads.

A bald faced lie by Florian. None of the posters cited have ever told anyone that a Paradigm or Axiom speaker will deliver the same sound quality as a "State of the Art" system. Florian has been asked by Kex and Wooch, among others, to cite posts that support his conclusion. Incidentally, Wooch has never heard an Axiom speaker and has never claimed as such.

To this date, no supporting evidence has been cited by Florian to attribute to the comments that he claims have been made, and Wooch adds that from his experience no supporting evidence to this effect exists. Only reasonable conclusion would be that Florian is either forgetful, deliberately not telling the truth, or exaggerating to an irresponsible extreme. If Florian wishes to impugn the credibility of other posters and chooses to single them out by name, then he needs to cite sources to support his assertions, otherwise the only credibility that he diminishes is his own.

I see these things differently, Woochiever etc.. are croud pleaser. They say what the masses want to hear and get respect for that. Its no problem coppying the dolby guidelines or knwowing the sample rate of the new high res formats. This is not rocket sience but basic understandings. The use of carpets on the wall wont even break the waves of midrange signals.

Simple fact is that many of the posters on this forum do not know about Dolby guidelines, sampling rates, etc. Providing this information is a "basic" but necessary function that a forum such as this one provides. Florian's statement that carpets on the wall do not "break the waves of midrange signals" is true, but then again, nobody that Wooch can remember has ever made a statement that carpets can "break" midrange signals. To Wooch, statements like this constitute a logical fallacy, otherwise known as a strawman argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_argument

Wooch does not play to the crowd. He bases his posts on personal experience, measurements, information accumulated through secondary sources, and his own opinions. If Wooch's conclusions are similar to those of other posters, it's because he chose to apply what others recommended, and came to the conclusion that advice from people such as Sir Terrence, Doc Greene, and others improved his enjoyment of the audio hobby. Wooch does not care if his posts garner respect from others on the board, because this is a hobby and his purpose for being on this board is to share the enjoyment and experience. If he gets respect, it might be because for the most part he gives respect.

Incidentally, Florian has shown enough concern about his reputation on the Audioreview board to dedicate entire threads to himself.

Personality Poll
I hereby quit !!

But this is not the point, i love each and every system may they be 100 or 100000 Dollars but if Wooch comes in and tells me that he "chose" a Paradigm Ref 40 etc..over a big Electreostatic because of their supposely limited dynamic range etc. i jump in my seat and start to question the reality he is living in.

Another Florian fallacy, because Wooch has never said that he "chose" a Paradigm "Ref 40" over a "big Electreostatic" due to their "limited dynamic range etc." The only "Electreostatic" that Wooch considered was the Magnepan 1.6, which is not one of their "big" models. With this in mind, unless Florian can come up with an example where Wooch made this statement, then one would have to question which reality Florian is coming from.

Speaking of reality, Florian has recently gone on record as saying that Bose, Paradigm, and B&W sound the same.

Are Bose 301 Speakers the best in there price range?

Yet, Florian has also claimed that his ears can detect a 0.5 db variation.

Is More watts better?

So, if Wooch has actually measured a 2 db difference between a Bose 301 and a Paradigm Studio 40, how does Florian not hear it? After all, Bose and Paradigm sound the same to his ears. A measureable level difference of >0.5db would imply that they should not sound the same to Florian's ears.

Perhaps, a 2 db level difference is not significant, because the DAC was not mounted on a stone base. After all, Florian says that he hears differences between when a DAC is placed on stone vs. wood.

High dollar speaker cables and speaker crossovers

Thanks for yet unother factless, pointless and idiot post Kex...it only further depends the opinion and the lack of respect of your knowledge we have on this forum about you. Yes i mention we, i am not alone. And while you at it, we can add Wooch. who copies and pastes articles.

Kex's response to Florian made several key points that Florian chose not to respond to in a factual, reasonable, and logical manner. This type of tirade that Florian spouted out is very common throughout the Internet whenever a poster is caught making factual errors that he cannot defend. Common responses include changing the subject, repeating the same baseless point over and over, ignoring/looking past, etc. In this case, Florian responded to Kex's factual points by making personal insults that mature minds might regard as childish and weakminded. Generally, this type of behavior manifests itself because someone cannot take responsibility for a mistake or admit when they're wrong. Of course, Florian has also claimed that he's never wrong, so that might explain why he takes things so personally whenever his factual errors are pointed out.

I know you wont like this thread so dont reply

Florian also tried a less common method of defensive posting by citing unnamed sources that support him personally, but still do not refute any of Kex's points. Wooch would add that Kex's input has not forced any threads to be moved over to the Steel Cage, which considering his high post count, would indicate a high degree of respect from others on the Audioreview board.

Florian attempts to further denigrate Wooch by accusing him of copying and pasting articles. Wooch would add that not only does he copy and post articles, he also posts his personal opinions, cites his sources, and occasionally cracks off-color jokes. In response to Florian, Wooch will link to Florian's previous posts to point out contradictions and inconsistencies, but those are not "articles."

Florian's point about "adding" Wooch to the list of ignored posters is another illogical statement, because Florian has already told Wooch on at least three previous occasions that he does not read Wooch's posts. Tense agreement is obviously a grammatical issue that Florian needs to keep straight if he wants his outbursts to sound somewhat logical.

Then again, logic does not seem to be an objective with Florian's posts.

[Florian]

Not at all, you can include Bose if you want. It just makes you sound more arrogant to include Bose in any list of respectable (but perhaps mass market or boxy) speakers.

The main thing is if you state all those box speakers sound the same, you're oversimplifying and simply speaking down to everyone who has "box" speakers and being simply disrespectful. You can say they all have some of the same limitations, but paradigms, B&Ws, Axioms, AV123 (another ID but I know little about them) all have some distinctly audible differences between them. The way you talk, and your wording makes it sound like either they're all trash and sound like tinny walky talkies or you don't know what you're talking about and don't have an ear to appreciate the differences between them.

Which brings me full circle to what I've said before, perhaps that's not your message and perhaps you aren't bragging when you volunteer information about how much you like to spend on things, but you sure could find some better ways to communicate it.

Well it must be a language barrier. This is not my main language, and i am a direct person. I know that a Paradigm Ref. 40 will blow any BOSE to pieces, and that the for a commercial company the B&Ws are great speakers. I can easily hear the differences and i can apreciate those systems. They are not what i like and i could not live with them. But they are good systems nonetheless in their respected classes.

Here are boxes that I like and that I can recommend have recommended before many times

*I will only name Companys

Avalon
Kharma
Thiel
Genesis
Alon
Dali
Naim
Ayon
Avantgarde
Duntech
Rega
Tannoy
Isis
TEAC
TDL

[Florian]

"Electreostatic" that Wooch considered was the Magnepan 1.6

And this is the problem my friend. Yes i did read your post and i can agree and see the problems i have made BUT, this is the problem. Maggies are not ELECTROSTATICS....they are nowhere near one in terms of technology. I DO NOT understand nor can i respect your helpfull guidence (when it comes to planars) if you cannot difference between them.

-Florian

PS: I dont comment on Dolby Surround or Home Theaters. I only comment on planar systems because that is what i know. If you would simply only talk about what you know, we wouldn have this problem.

[Woochifer]

Back to the original topic ...

Feanor -

I actually look at your perspective as common sense. You don't see the value of going beyond a certain price point and performance level, so you do the best within your financial and lifestyle boundaries, and just enjoy the music. You have your preferences, a system you're happy with, and are totally comfortable with that. From a practical point of view, you're going to save a lot of money and be just as happy in the end.

I think the biggest fallacy that's been circulated among a lot of audiophiles is that the size of the financial investment made in an audio system equates to how passionate someone is about music. In my experience, nothing could be further from the truth. It's just as possible to have a dedicated audiophile who appreciates music, as it is to find an audiophile who chooses their music based strictly on the sound quality. Conversely, it's also easy to dedicated music fanatics who don't care one way or another how it sounds. Most of us are somewhere in between these extremes.

[Woochifer]

And this is the problem my friend. Yes i did read your post and i can agree and see the problems i have made BUT, this is the problem. Maggies are not ELECTROSTATICS....they are nowhere near one in terms of technology. I DO NOT understand nor can i respect your helpfull guidence (when it comes to planars) if you cannot difference between them.

I thought you weren't reading my posts! How disappointing that you can't follow through on what you say you'll do yet again (y'know like the last two times that you said you were leaving the board cuz we were all such ignoramuses?). Seems that you feign ignorance just so that you can just keep repeating the falsehoods that I call you out on.

Since I seem to have reclaimed your attention (the degree to which you invoke my name in your posts indicates a rather unhealthy obsession with me, even if you claim to ignore me), why don't you tell me where I have ever equated a Paradigm Studio 40 with a "big Electreostatic"? Please keep in mind that there's no such thing as an "Electreostatic" speaker, and I intentionally carried over your misspelling repeatedly to make that point. If you're referring to "Electrostatic" then indeed I misspoke. (See? If I make a mistake or misspeak, I will actually admit it. Maybe you should try that for a change)

But, if you're limiting the discussion to "big Electrostatics" then that just further diminishes the truthfulness of your original statement, since I never "chose" the Studio 40 over any of them. Time to put up or shut up. You fling an awful lot of accusations around, with nothing to support them. And you wonder why you get called out as often as you do.

PS: I dont comment on Dolby Surround or Home Theaters.

You sure about that?

Old Equipment-New Technology
Minimum Requirement
RGA vs Lexmark -- was: Worst Sequel of all Time

[Florian]

Strong words!

I speak of the comment made by you where you stated the lack of dynamics compared to your choice (Paradigms in your gallery) which were as i recall the Innersound ESL's. You cannot call me out on spelling to cover your lack of knowledge on the subject. Remember when i called you upon your generalisation of "planars" ?

The members who are interested in this battle (properbly not many) are more then welcome to seek through your countless numbers of Paradigm recommendations to find the exact statement which i have a problem with. They will find your statement about the limitations of the Apogee Fullrange too which are none-existant.

I will say it one last time and one time only. Stay on your own grounds!

I am not acusing you of anything, i am stating my opinion which i believe and are therefore facts for me. I read this one thread of yours since i hoped that you had learned, but apperently not. I had hoped that i can bring this forum and some of its members to great musical realms. I have achieved that with a few people, but you can take the rest and keep recommending the same speakers over and over again while picking my statements apart together with the rest of the audioreview clic

[topspeed]

Why did I know this thread was going to end up like this?

Out of respect for Feanor, I'll refrain from commenting.

[Feanor]

Back to the original topic ...

Feanor -

I actually look at your perspective as common sense. You don't see the value of going beyond a certain price point and performance level, so you do the best within your financial and lifestyle boundaries, and just enjoy the music.
....
In my experience, nothing could be further from the truth. It's just as possible to have a dedicated audiophile who appreciates music, as it is to find an audiophile who chooses their music based strictly on the sound quality. ....

I'm reassured by most of the comments people have made -- even Florian's to an extent. I've never doubted the validity of my own interest. And I think today it's finely balanced between music and sound quality.

One the one hand, if I had more money or fewer other commitments I would indulge myself with fancier equipment. On the other hand I'd buy a lot more music too. The latter is much more important presently and I spending more money there. Though my interest in the hobby goes back 35 years, I almost entirely abandoned it for an interval of almost 15 years. Consequently my music collection is really very small: maybe 400 CD/SACD and 200 LP (which I hardly listen to). I need to get caught up big time!

[Woochifer]

I speak of the comment made by you where you stated the lack of dynamics compared to your choice (Paradigms in your gallery) which were as i recall the Innersound ESL's.

Nope, never did. It would help if you actually verify before you accuse.

Anything else I should audition?

You cannot call me out on spelling to cover your lack of knowledge on the subject. Remember when i called you upon your generalisation of "planars" ?

Yes, and I corrected myself to state that my comments were limited to the planar speakers that I've heard. On the other hand, you've demonstrated plenty of times that you will generalize based on things that you've not heard and not correct yourself when people call you out on it (i.e. these constant shots that you take at Paradigm when you haven't even heard their current lineup).

The members who are interested in this battle (properbly not many) are more then welcome to seek through your countless numbers of Paradigm recommendations to find the exact statement which i have a problem with. They will find your statement about the limitations of the Apogee Fullrange too which are none-existant.

Your selective memory seems to lead you astray. For all the accusations that you have ascribed to Kex, or topspeed, or RGA, or myself, you've yet to find a single post that supports your statements. Doubtful that anybody's interested in all the flame wars that you start either. But, when you accuse people of saying stuff that they don't say, changing the subject won't make you any less of a liar and a hypocrite than your posts demonstrate.

My impressions of the Apogee Fullrange are based on first hand listenings. If you can't accept that, it says more about your purported open mindedness and "respect" for other peoples' opinions than anything else you might add.

I will say it one last time and one time only. Stay on your own grounds!

And I will post wherever my contribution is appropriate, regardless of whatever smear job or poseur bullying tactic you might try. And if I don't do what poor little Florian says, what are you going to do? Go cry to mommy?

I am not acusing you of anything, i am stating my opinion which i believe and are therefore facts for me. I read this one thread of yours since i hoped that you had learned, but apperently not. I had hoped that i can bring this forum and some of its members to great musical realms. I have achieved that with a few people, but you can take the rest and keep recommending the same speakers over and over again while picking my statements apart together with the rest of the audioreview clic

If you claim that I said something, then you'd better back that up, otherwise it's far from a "fact" and closer to outright lie. Just because you believe something does not make it true. Saying that I said something is not an "opinion" -- it's a statement of fact if it's true, and a lie if it's false. Given that I have never said the things that you accuse me of, that make your "opinion" a lie.

Kex called you out, and you responded, not with facts, but with personal attacks. And in the end, you still couldn't find a single post that he's made that fits what you ACCUSE him of.

On this thread and on others, I have called you out for making false statements about things I've said. Your response lately has been that you were no longer reading my posts. As shown on this thread, you not only read my posts, but keep spinning the same falsehood over and over despite what my posting history actually says.

The only person who hasn't "learned" seems to be you. It doesn't matter how much you think you help other members, or how valuable you feel your knowledge is, or how wonderful you feel your system is. It doesn't give you a free pass to attack people who disagrees with you by distorting, impugning, and lying about things that they say. But, I guess if you need the attention, then no better way than to falsely accuse someone.

[KaiWinters]

Florian, apologizing for upsetting me over the Bose/Paradigm/B+W comment is unnecessary but welcome...thanks...
I enjoy strong discussion and arguments immensely so long as they do not resort to name calling.
I am not an audiophile but am a long time enthusiast that has passed on my enthusiasm to my son and daughter...makes me happy and proud.
I respect all the members that take the time and energy to post whether helping others or arguing their stands/opinions.
I do get pissed at some comments and statements for varied reasons and state my case.
Seems we all do that some more enthusiastically than others.

[E-Stat]

One the one hand, if I had more money or fewer other commitments I would indulge myself with fancier equipment. On the other hand I'd buy a lot more music too.

I think it is sad that discussing our shared passion ends up so contentious. While there are certainly those who parade their expensive systems around like jewelry, most of the audio enthusiasts I know do it for the love of music. I have been blessed for the past thirty years to count two audio reviewers as friends who have given me exposure to gear (and music) I would never have otherwise been able to sample.

How do I say this and convey my true feelings without sounding snobbish? Ok, my main system is worth more than my Acura. There are those who say that audible differences with systems more expensive than that would be so slight as to not make a difference. I assure you this is not the case. I really wish everyone had the chance to hear a system of the caliber found in Seacliff. You would hear your music for the very first time. It is truly a treat.

Having said that, I likely listen more to my vintage Advent based system in the garage than the main one. While you can extract enjoyment from virtually any system, it sure is fun to hear what is possible now and again.

rw

[Feanor]

...
There are those who say that audible differences with systems more expensive than that would be so slight as to not make a difference. I assure you this is not the case. ....
rw

Thanks, E-Stat,

Perhaps my "good enough" statement was misleading. I didn't mean to imply that my system was as good as I, (much less another person), need or would like it to be. I only mean to convey that I don't obsess about searching for hypothetical improvements, (unless I am conscious of a specific problem),.

But yes, it's true that I am skeptical about the benefits of costly tweaks such as $1000 power cords. (1) Will there be a significant improvement? (2) Will the expenditure really provide value versus other alternatives, e.g. obtaining more music.

With music, on the contrary, I am always looking for new stuff at least with the broad genre of the classics and jazz.