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  1. #1
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    Question Upgrade Speakers or PowerAmp first?

    I have a 5 year old Rotel Poweramp, 2x60, it was one of the entry models that time. I have Mirage 290is Speakers, I got them also 5 years ago. I recently bought a SACD-DVD-A player and a Rotel Pre-Amp. Now, I may consider upgrading my poweramp or my speakers. I can't upgrade both at the same time because of the price so I'm asking you which one should go first?

    It seems to me that the speakers should make the bigger difference because it's where the sound comes from. But I didn't go to demo rooms a lot and I don't know which makes bigger difference. A good speaker with a entry level amp or a good amp with an entry level speaker.

  2. #2
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iBug
    I have a 5 year old Rotel Poweramp, 2x60, it was one of the entry models that time. I have Mirage 290is Speakers, I got them also 5 years ago. I recently bought a SACD-DVD-A player and a Rotel Pre-Amp. Now, I may consider upgrading my poweramp or my speakers. I can't upgrade both at the same time because of the price so I'm asking you which one should go first?

    It seems to me that the speakers should make the bigger difference because it's where the sound comes from. But I didn't go to demo rooms a lot and I don't know which makes bigger difference. A good speaker with a entry level amp or a good amp with an entry level speaker.
    Without a doubt buy the speakers.

    Rotel is a good name in amps, even their entry level amp is OK for now.

    Your speakers are nice, but bookshelf sized. A pair of floor standers will go deeper, and most likely be more efficient, so you'll have even more SPL with the same amp.

    Spend some time listening to a range of speakers. Get to know what you want before you plunk down your cash.
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  3. #3
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    I say go with the ...

    power amp. There are much better amps out there than Rotel. I believe the better the equipment around speakers, the better any speaker will perform and sound. Remember, just because something sounds different doesn't mean it's better! Most speakers are not ment to sound neutral. Manufacturers generally are trying to get a specific type of sound from their speakers. This is why, when comparing speakers, you will find such large differences in their sonic characteristics. They are the most SUBJECTIVE of components.

    Again, a good amp will make any speaker sound and perform well. A mediocre amp will make ALL speakers sound mediocre.

  4. #4
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    Budget for poweramp

    You say that there are better poweramps than Rotel, but my budget for now is not more than 600 Euro. And I don't think I can buy a Classe with that budget. But, I don't know if there are better amps than Rotel in that price range. Btw, I can't buy all brands here, I live in Turkey and there are a few real Hi-Fi distributors around here. Rotel and B&W have their distributors here but other brands in that price range, I don't know if I can find.

  5. #5
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    How about taking a look in the used speaker market? You might just find something much better than what you currently have for about what you would like to spend.

  6. #6
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    I agree with Bturk

    If you get the speakers that you want without the proper amp to drive them, you won't be happy. You might consider buying whichever comes your way in the form of a good deal first and go from there. Bturk is absolutely right about the better amp making everything sound better and the mediocre amp making everything sound mediocre. Used amps often go cheap and the good ones should last 30 years or more.
    I have always spent at least 2 to 3 times more on the amp than the speakers. This seems to have been reversed by many people today and I'll never understand why. Without a good power amp, you have nothing. Good luck, whichever way you go.
    Bill

  7. #7
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    Try used or dealer demos!

    My amp was a dealer demo. Retail price was $1800, U.S., my cost $1200 U.S.
    Give it a try, you might be surprised what you can find used or demoed.

  8. #8
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Without a doubt, the speakers and the room acoustics are by far the biggest difference maker in any system. Consider that most speakers will get up to very loud levels with LESS THAN ONE WATT of output from the amplifier. Subjectively, you will hear differences between amps, but they are minute and insignificant compared to the differences that speakers and room acoustics make. Only if you're going with difficult speakers or listening to near rock concert levels will an amp make a difference anywhere near the effect that switching speakers or addressing room acoustics problems will have.

    Different speakers and different rooms have a wide range of variability. These differences are easily verified through simple measurements and clearly audible. Solid state amps do not have nearly as wide a range in their tonal characteristics, especially if you're talking about normal listening levels and not at the onset of clipping. A decent amp can make a speaker sound better, but it cannot fundamentally change its tonal characteristics or overcome its physical limitations. Only a different speaker can give you a different type of sound, if that's what you're looking for.

    You already have a quality front end rig. Switching out the speakers you will hear a big difference. Switching out the amp, you'll hear a much smaller difference (if you can even detect one in the first place). With equal money, the smarter investment is to put it where it makes the most difference.

    Aside from speakers, don't rule out addressing your room acoustics either. Stuff like acoustic panels, bass traps, and parametric equalizers (with subwoofers) can make dramatic improvements in your overall system performance. And those improvements can be very cheap if you work with basic building materials and build your own panels or bass traps.

  9. #9
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    I agree he can do better

    Than the 60 watt Rotel, but it will power any speaker he's going to get now.

    In my view you should decide what speakers you want to build your system around, not the amp. I've already switched out several amps in my setup, and the difference is subtle compared to changing your speakers.

    He could go out and spend $600 on an amp, and find that he's got only a small increase in sound quality.

    I am SURE that if he spends $600 on speakers he will notice a much larger increase.

    Another thing to remember is the better the speakers, the more you will be able to appreciate better components. If he gets the speakers first, and then later upgrades his amp, he will notice it that much more.

    Oh, and a 100% agreement on used/demo stuff. It's the best way to upgrade on a budget.
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  10. #10
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    I am considering B&W DM603 S3 for 700 pounds a pair.

    I found that the distributor has those nice speakers. I went there for a demo today and listened to the lower model DM602 and the sound was great but they used a 20000$ amp in the demo, not my amp and a decent CD transport and DAC. Next time, I'll bring my own amp and try the 603's. I may check other models of B&W in that price range and I guess the only brand I can find here is that one in that price range.

    If I consider buying an amp, the only one they can offer me is the Rotel RB1070 with 2x120Watt's. It looks like a decent amp but it's too expensive compared to the USA retail price. 700$ to 850 Euro. So I have to choose between those The other amps they have are too expensive like Classe, or MarkLevinson or 10000$ tube amps I've listenede today.

    And I also wonder if the Rotel 1070 will sound better than mine. If the only difference is that extra 60 Watt, then it's only 3dB more power. I don't know if 1070 is has better parts than mine.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by iBug
    I have a 5 year old Rotel Poweramp, 2x60, it was one of the entry models that time. I have Mirage 290is Speakers, I got them also 5 years ago. I recently bought a SACD-DVD-A player and a Rotel Pre-Amp. Now, I may consider upgrading my poweramp or my speakers. I can't upgrade both at the same time because of the price so I'm asking you which one should go first?

    It seems to me that the speakers should make the bigger difference because it's where the sound comes from. But I didn't go to demo rooms a lot and I don't know which makes bigger difference. A good speaker with a entry level amp or a good amp with an entry level speaker.

    Well, speakers do make the most difference along with the room and the recording.
    The question I have is why do you think you need different speakers, or amp?
    All of a sudden you don't like them?
    mtrycrafts

  12. #12
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    Kind of

    They don't seem to satisfy me now. After listening to the demo with those B&W's, my speakers have a weaker sound. Why not buy them if I can afford?

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    I learned that my Power is not 2x60. It's 2x30.

    I downloaded the manual for my amp and saw that it's 2x30. I always knew that it was 2x60. I don't know why I knew it that way. Anyway, now, I can buy Rotel RB-1070 2X130 Power or those 603 B&W speakers. I will look for more brands but probably I'll choose between those 2. So now, which one will make a big difference? My current speakers can output 120 Watt, so upgrading my amp to 2X130 will increase the power a lot I guess from 2X30. I will be adding about 6 dB more output. But I'll bring my speakers and power to the dealer and demo them separately anyway.

  14. #14
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    you have a dilemma

    It's true that the biggest signature of a sound system is accomplished by the speakers but without a good amp, their sound will not be what it should. I don't think that my suggestion of buying whichever came as the best deal first was a bad idea. You can add the other component (speakers or amp) at a later date. Have you ever tried a different amp with your speakers? Maybe you could demo one from a friend or even from a store to see what it does for your speakers and then make the decision. You might also demo a 30wpc amp with the speakers that you are looking at to see if it will adequately drive them, which I doubt. You would hear quite a difference going from 30wpc to 130wpc. The difference in loudness isn't the big deal, it's the bass response and clarity that you'll get and that should improve dramatically unless your speakers were only rated for 30 watts, which I imagine is not the case.
    Bill

  15. #15
    DMK
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    Speakers first

    Quote Originally Posted by iBug
    They don't seem to satisfy me now. After listening to the demo with those B&W's, my speakers have a weaker sound. Why not buy them if I can afford?
    While there is truth to the comment that a pair of speakers aren't going to perform up to their capabilities without a good amp, it's MORE true that a good amp isn't going to turn less capable speakers into something they aren't. By FAR, you will get a better sound by upgrading the speakers. An better amp can later be used to tweak the sound, but the improvement will be marginal - infintesimal compared to the speakers.

    Ideally, all your gear should be of essentially the same quality. But if you have to scrimp, do so first on the CD player, next on the amplification, and last on the speakers. I've put together modest systems for dozens of people and the happiest ones are the ones that followed this path. A $1000 CDP, $1000 amp and $200 speakers (as an example) will likely lead to disappointment while a $1500 pair of speakers, $500 amp and $200 CDP will likely sound great! Certainly it could be improved upon but improvements will be much smaller than in the first example by upgrading the speakers.

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    My Speakers are 125 Watt

    The manual of the speakers says that recommended Amp power is 25-125 Watt and maximum power handling 125 Watts RMS. I have been using these speakers with a 30 Watt amp as I said. Now, I can afford a 2x130 Watt or even a 2x200 Watt PowerAmp by Rotel. I can buy the RB-1080. It has 2x200 Watt power and unbalanced inputs. It is a high quality amp. But my question is this. If I connect 200 Watt amp to my speakers what will happen? Do I harm the speakers?

    Btw, my speakers are not weak as my amp. My amp was the cheapest thing when I bought it but the speakers were 550$ that time. So, upgrading the amp to a really higher model will add lots of clarity to the music I suppose. And after 4 months, I'll upgrade my speakers. Or maybe I will be so much satisfied with the sound I get, I won't consider upgrading my speakers after 4 months.

    Btw, when I take my speakers and amp to demo with other speakers and amps, they are using a 6000$ CD transport and DAC which I don't have. So, will that make a huuuuuge difference in the sound? When I come home and connect what I bought to my 380 Euro DVD player will the sound be a loooot worse?

  17. #17
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    I still say spend money on the amp

    Demo as much as you can both ways and see for yourself. When people say that an amp cannot make a huge difference, they are just wrong. Take an inferior underpowered amp to drive the finest speakers and the speakers will sound like crap. Take a great amp and drive some cheap crappy speakers and you'll be surprised how good they might sound. There is an ass-backwards approach to building stereo systems today that I will never understand. Without a good amp, you have garbage. Do your demos and see for yourself.
    I would not recommend going up to 200wpc, that's overkill for your speakers and yes, you could damage them. The fact that you don't have a 6k CD player seems less important, not many people do have such expensive units and get along fine. While many enjoy inexpensive receivers to drive expensive speakers, I would never suggest this practice to anyone. Go listen and you should see why.
    Bill

  18. #18
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iBug
    I downloaded the manual for my amp and saw that it's 2x30. I always knew that it was 2x60. I don't know why I knew it that way. Anyway, now, I can buy Rotel RB-1070 2X130 Power or those 603 B&W speakers. I will look for more brands but probably I'll choose between those 2. So now, which one will make a big difference? My current speakers can output 120 Watt, so upgrading my amp to 2X130 will increase the power a lot I guess from 2X30. I will be adding about 6 dB more output. But I'll bring my speakers and power to the dealer and demo them separately anyway.
    OK, I've got a suggestion for you. Go and BORROW the demo amp your looking at for your setup. Take it home and play YOUR amp for 1/2 HR playing music that you like and know, at the volume you usually listen at. Then switch out the amps, and play EXACTLY the same music, at EXACTLY the same volume. When we do it here we calibrate it with a SPL meter. If you don't have one it will be much harder. Remember that the volume knob setting has nothing to do with the actual volume. Either amp might be more sensitive, so you will have to set the volume by EAR. Now switch back to your amp and do it again. It's not going to be very much fun, but you'll get an idea of what kind of difference a new amp will make. In no way should you turn the volume up to see which one will play louder! That you already know, what your trying to understand is which sounds BETTER, which does not necessarily mean louder.

    I like high powered amps. Always did. But I have heard incredible amps with powers as low as 50 watts, so I would keep an open mind before you jump to the conclusion that more power is always better.
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  19. #19
    DMK
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbangelfish
    Demo as much as you can both ways and see for yourself. When people say that an amp cannot make a huge difference, they are just wrong. Take an inferior underpowered amp to drive the finest speakers and the speakers will sound like crap. Take a great amp and drive some cheap crappy speakers and you'll be surprised how good they might sound. There is an ass-backwards approach to building stereo systems today that I will never understand. Without a good amp, you have garbage. Do your demos and see for yourself.
    Bill
    Sorry, man - I have demoed it both ways on dozens of occasions. If you have "cheap, crappy speakers", you'll get cheap, crappy sound no matter what you drive them with. If your amp is underpowered, then I agree with you. If you don't have enough power to drive your speakers, you'll clip and that sounds terrible. My comments were made under the assumption that power wasn't an issue. I have yet to find a pair of cheap, crappy speakers that will sound good with any amp you can name. The speakers make much more difference in sound than any other piece of gear. Only the software and the room make a bigger difference. Anyone that builds a system around a solid state power amp is going about system building all wrong. Find your speakers first and then fit the amp. The people I've talked to that are the most disappointed with their sound is the ones that have their hearts set on some monster amp with huge heatsinks and then can't afford decent speakers. OTOH, if they put their bucks into great speakers, they can drive them with a cheaper amp for awhile and get 90-95% of the sound they're looking for. I only say all this because I've tried it both ways in various systems for various people and it's never failed.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbangelfish
    When people say that an amp cannot make a huge difference, they are just wrong. Take an inferior underpowered amp to drive the finest speakers and the speakers will sound like crap. Take a great amp and drive some cheap crappy speakers and you'll be surprised how good they might sound. There is an ass-backwards approach to building stereo systems today that I will never understand. Without a good amp, you have garbage. Do your demos and see for yourself.
    I would not recommend going up to 200wpc, that's overkill for your speakers and yes, you could damage them. While many enjoy inexpensive receivers to drive expensive speakers, I would never suggest this practice to anyone. Go listen and you should see why.
    Bill
    Where did you get all this stuff from?
    mtrycrafts

  21. #21
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    The manual of the speakers says that recommended Amp power is 25-125 Watt and maximum power handling 125 Watts RMS.

    It would be nice to know its impedance and its sensitivity, how much SPL for 1 watts of power at 1 meter distance.




    I have been using these speakers with a 30 Watt amp as I said. Now, I can afford a 2x130 Watt or even a 2x200 Watt PowerAmp by Rotel.

    OK. So, with the 130 watts you get 6dB spl on the peaks only. Certainly doesn't affect you normal listening level, unless you listen at very loud levels constantly which will damage you hearing.


    I can buy the RB-1080. It has 2x200 Watt power and unbalanced inputs. It is a high quality amp. But my question is this. If I connect 200 Watt amp to my speakers what will happen? Do I harm the speakers?


    You will damage it if you blast it constantly with very high power which would certainly cause you to have hearing loss in a hurry.

    Btw, my speakers are not weak as my amp. My amp was the cheapest thing when I bought it but the speakers were 550$ that time.

    A misconception that price determines system weakness. Nothing further from the truth. You just surfaced another audio myth.

    So, upgrading the amp to a really higher model will add lots of clarity to the music I suppose.

    Or it will do nothing for you.


    And after 4 months, I'll upgrade my speakers. Or maybe I will be so much satisfied with the sound I get, I won't consider upgrading my speakers after 4 months.


    More reason to do careful comparisons before you buy. Careful means avoiding biased comparisons. Maybe your expectaions are beyond reality of audio.

    Btw, when I take my speakers and amp to demo with other speakers and amps, they are using a 6000$ CD transport and DAC which I don't have.

    Well, that is marketing to BS you into spending lots of money on audio. You may need to find a better place to compare as this place will certainly will try to hype anything they sell and bias any comparisons you will hear. Run away from that store.

    Oh, that CD setup is just jewelry, nothing to do with high fidelity in audio.


    So, will that make a huuuuuge difference in the sound? When I come home and connect what I bought to my 380 Euro DVD player will the sound be a loooot worse?


    Well, you will not be able to do an unbiased comparison of the two CD playes separated so far by distance, time and most of all, your acoustic space, your home and the setup at the store. Don't even try to make any sensible conclusions.
    mtrycrafts

  22. #22
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    Speaker Specifications

    Mirage 290is

    Sensitivity: 87dB 89dB
    Anechoic 86dB 2.83 V /1 M

    Crossover points 1.8KHz

    Impedance 8 Ohms

    Freq. Res. 43Hz - 22KHz

  23. #23
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iBug
    Mirage 290is

    Sensitivity: 87dB 89dB
    Anechoic 86dB 2.83 V /1 M

    Crossover points 1.8KHz

    Impedance 8 Ohms

    Freq. Res. 43Hz - 22KHz
    Your bookshelf speakers are easily bested.

    Try the larger Mirage floorstanders. Perhaps the OM-9's
    Audio;
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    Arcam Alpha 9 CD.- 24 bit dCS Ring DAC.
    Magnepan 3.6r speakers Oak/black,

  24. #24
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    One more note on power

    Yes, I'm a power nut so I generally like large, heavy and powerful amplifiers. The reason that I like them is for their ability to make speakers sound like they are capable of. I'm not talking about components that overrate or overstate their abilities. I am also talking about class A/B amplifiers. Tube and class A manage to drive speakers with a lot less wattage but usually they are quite expensive.
    In all my years of listening to my own stereos and other's stereos, the single biggest reason that I can think of in regards to dissatisfaction of any stereo, it would be the lack of power that people had with their systems. This is really my only point that I'm trying to make. I'm also talking about quality power which I have not found in receivers. There are sure to be exceptions and surely someone has made good receivers with plenty of power.
    When I talk about cheap, crappy speakers, I'm pretty much referring to the common every day stuff that most of us had at one time or another such as Sansui, Pioneer, JBL, EPI, Polk, Bose and so on. Any of these companies probably had some good speakers too but the chain store, mass production or run of the mill is what I'm talking about. There were no doubt, some speakers made that even the best amp couldn't help. Maybe I'm generalizing too much and please don't take offense if your favorites are listed above. Pretty much everyone made some speakers that were cheap and not so good.
    Everyone today seems to like Paradigm, B&W and of course many others. I may very well like them if I heard them myself but for now, I'm very happy with what I have. A lot of these newer speaker systems cost $1500 to $4000 or more and then people buy a single sub because the system has no bass without it. I am not a fan of this concept at all and prefer my speaker system to reach low 20hz or below without subwoofers. I guess it's very expensive to buy new speakers that will do this so I'm happy with old ones that cost me $735 and are in like new condition. The old AR9's are biamp capable and I intend to give this a try since I have two identical Parasound amps. Many owners on the arsenal vintage speaker site have done this with great satisfaction.
    Skeptic listens to his AR9's with, I think around 65wpc, and is perfectly happy. There could be something to the theory of less power being enough with efficient speakers. Sooner or later, I will try some other amps with mine to see what I think of it but I'd be willing to bet that I will like the most powerful amps that I have which are the Parasounds.
    I will confess to liking music quite loud. Has anyone ever been to a concert that was not loud? Classical, pipe organ, rock, whatever, it's all pretty loud. I like to be able to recreate this at home as best I can and have been fiddling with it for some 30 years or more. Certainly there is no way to completely recreate a live performance at home but if you have strong enough speakers and enough power, you can get closer than many would believe.
    I'm not referring to deafening levels as some concerts can be which leaves your ears ringing. This is not good for you. I read somewhere that turning your volume control to about 3 o'clock should yield concert level or very near concert level volume. This will certainly be very loud and unless you have a very large listening room, will probably be too loud. At any rate, I feel that your home stereo should be able to get there without clipping or audible distortion. For a normal, loud session, I'm usually just past 12 to 1 o'clock and it's plenty loud to bring out everything and again with no distortion. If you can't do this with your stereo, I think your missing the boat and this is what I have demonstrated to so many people over the years. It takes a fair amount of power to do this with any reasonable sounding speakers that I have ever heard. I am definately one for giving them what they can handle and have never been dissappointed with this approach. This is also why I end up spending more on amps than I do on speakers.
    If I were to buy new components, (speakers and all) the figures might be closer together but I'd never skimp on the amp or amps. The Parasounds are about as cheap as I care to go and may someday upgrade to something better, I do consider them a bargain at the used prices. They compare closely to the bigger Rotels, Adcom and some say Bryston.
    Bill
    Hopefully, I made sense to someone at least. If not, I'm pretty happy in my little world.

  25. #25
    Forum Regular thepogue's Avatar
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    in your case i'd be in the market for speakers...

    Rotel makes some quality entry level equipment although i'm not too familiar w/ this particular model. As stated by some above, the most difference (for good or bad) can be had by replacing speakers in your system. I don't subscribe to the mindset that more WPC always means better...in fact the hugh fan-base for tube amps feels wpc isn't a factor as it related to quality.

    listen to as many speaker brands as you can and shop for used deals....you'll love yourself for it!! Good Luck.
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