Upgrade Speakers or PowerAmp first?

[iBug]

I have a 5 year old Rotel Poweramp, 2x60, it was one of the entry models that time. I have Mirage 290is Speakers, I got them also 5 years ago. I recently bought a SACD-DVD-A player and a Rotel Pre-Amp. Now, I may consider upgrading my poweramp or my speakers. I can't upgrade both at the same time because of the price so I'm asking you which one should go first?

It seems to me that the speakers should make the bigger difference because it's where the sound comes from. But I didn't go to demo rooms a lot and I don't know which makes bigger difference. A good speaker with a entry level amp or a good amp with an entry level speaker.

[Geoffcin]

I have a 5 year old Rotel Poweramp, 2x60, it was one of the entry models that time. I have Mirage 290is Speakers, I got them also 5 years ago. I recently bought a SACD-DVD-A player and a Rotel Pre-Amp. Now, I may consider upgrading my poweramp or my speakers. I can't upgrade both at the same time because of the price so I'm asking you which one should go first?

It seems to me that the speakers should make the bigger difference because it's where the sound comes from. But I didn't go to demo rooms a lot and I don't know which makes bigger difference. A good speaker with a entry level amp or a good amp with an entry level speaker.

Without a doubt buy the speakers.

Rotel is a good name in amps, even their entry level amp is OK for now.

Your speakers are nice, but bookshelf sized. A pair of floor standers will go deeper, and most likely be more efficient, so you'll have even more SPL with the same amp.

Spend some time listening to a range of speakers. Get to know what you want before you plunk down your cash.

[bturk667]

power amp. There are much better amps out there than Rotel. I believe the better the equipment around speakers, the better any speaker will perform and sound. Remember, just because something sounds different doesn't mean it's better! Most speakers are not ment to sound neutral. Manufacturers generally are trying to get a specific type of sound from their speakers. This is why, when comparing speakers, you will find such large differences in their sonic characteristics. They are the most SUBJECTIVE of components.

Again, a good amp will make any speaker sound and perform well. A mediocre amp will make ALL speakers sound mediocre.

[iBug]

You say that there are better poweramps than Rotel, but my budget for now is not more than 600 Euro. And I don't think I can buy a Classe with that budget. But, I don't know if there are better amps than Rotel in that price range. Btw, I can't buy all brands here, I live in Turkey and there are a few real Hi-Fi distributors around here. Rotel and B&W have their distributors here but other brands in that price range, I don't know if I can find.

[Bryan]

How about taking a look in the used speaker market? You might just find something much better than what you currently have for about what you would like to spend.

[jbangelfish]

If you get the speakers that you want without the proper amp to drive them, you won't be happy. You might consider buying whichever comes your way in the form of a good deal first and go from there. Bturk is absolutely right about the better amp making everything sound better and the mediocre amp making everything sound mediocre. Used amps often go cheap and the good ones should last 30 years or more.
I have always spent at least 2 to 3 times more on the amp than the speakers. This seems to have been reversed by many people today and I'll never understand why. Without a good power amp, you have nothing. Good luck, whichever way you go.
Bill

[bturk667]

My amp was a dealer demo. Retail price was $1800, U.S., my cost $1200 U.S.
Give it a try, you might be surprised what you can find used or demoed.

[Geoffcin]

Than the 60 watt Rotel, but it will power any speaker he's going to get now.

In my view you should decide what speakers you want to build your system around, not the amp. I've already switched out several amps in my setup, and the difference is subtle compared to changing your speakers.

He could go out and spend $600 on an amp, and find that he's got only a small increase in sound quality.

I am SURE that if he spends $600 on speakers he will notice a much larger increase.

Another thing to remember is the better the speakers, the more you will be able to appreciate better components. If he gets the speakers first, and then later upgrades his amp, he will notice it that much more.

Oh, and a 100% agreement on used/demo stuff. It's the best way to upgrade on a budget.

[iBug]

I found that the distributor has those nice speakers. I went there for a demo today and listened to the lower model DM602 and the sound was great but they used a 20000$ amp in the demo, not my amp and a decent CD transport and DAC. Next time, I'll bring my own amp and try the 603's. I may check other models of B&W in that price range and I guess the only brand I can find here is that one in that price range.

If I consider buying an amp, the only one they can offer me is the Rotel RB1070 with 2x120Watt's. It looks like a decent amp but it's too expensive compared to the USA retail price. 700$ to 850 Euro. So I have to choose between those The other amps they have are too expensive like Classe, or MarkLevinson or 10000$ tube amps I've listenede today.

And I also wonder if the Rotel 1070 will sound better than mine. If the only difference is that extra 60 Watt, then it's only 3dB more power. I don't know if 1070 is has better parts than mine.

[Woochifer]

Without a doubt, the speakers and the room acoustics are by far the biggest difference maker in any system. Consider that most speakers will get up to very loud levels with LESS THAN ONE WATT of output from the amplifier. Subjectively, you will hear differences between amps, but they are minute and insignificant compared to the differences that speakers and room acoustics make. Only if you're going with difficult speakers or listening to near rock concert levels will an amp make a difference anywhere near the effect that switching speakers or addressing room acoustics problems will have.

Different speakers and different rooms have a wide range of variability. These differences are easily verified through simple measurements and clearly audible. Solid state amps do not have nearly as wide a range in their tonal characteristics, especially if you're talking about normal listening levels and not at the onset of clipping. A decent amp can make a speaker sound better, but it cannot fundamentally change its tonal characteristics or overcome its physical limitations. Only a different speaker can give you a different type of sound, if that's what you're looking for.

You already have a quality front end rig. Switching out the speakers you will hear a big difference. Switching out the amp, you'll hear a much smaller difference (if you can even detect one in the first place). With equal money, the smarter investment is to put it where it makes the most difference.

Aside from speakers, don't rule out addressing your room acoustics either. Stuff like acoustic panels, bass traps, and parametric equalizers (with subwoofers) can make dramatic improvements in your overall system performance. And those improvements can be very cheap if you work with basic building materials and build your own panels or bass traps.

[mtrycraft]

I have a 5 year old Rotel Poweramp, 2x60, it was one of the entry models that time. I have Mirage 290is Speakers, I got them also 5 years ago. I recently bought a SACD-DVD-A player and a Rotel Pre-Amp. Now, I may consider upgrading my poweramp or my speakers. I can't upgrade both at the same time because of the price so I'm asking you which one should go first?

It seems to me that the speakers should make the bigger difference because it's where the sound comes from. But I didn't go to demo rooms a lot and I don't know which makes bigger difference. A good speaker with a entry level amp or a good amp with an entry level speaker.

Well, speakers do make the most difference along with the room and the recording.
The question I have is why do you think you need different speakers, or amp?
All of a sudden you don't like them?

[iBug]

They don't seem to satisfy me now. After listening to the demo with those B&W's, my speakers have a weaker sound. Why not buy them if I can afford?

[iBug]

I downloaded the manual for my amp and saw that it's 2x30. I always knew that it was 2x60. I don't know why I knew it that way. Anyway, now, I can buy Rotel RB-1070 2X130 Power or those 603 B&W speakers. I will look for more brands but probably I'll choose between those 2. So now, which one will make a big difference? My current speakers can output 120 Watt, so upgrading my amp to 2X130 will increase the power a lot I guess from 2X30. I will be adding about 6 dB more output. But I'll bring my speakers and power to the dealer and demo them separately anyway.

[jbangelfish]

It's true that the biggest signature of a sound system is accomplished by the speakers but without a good amp, their sound will not be what it should. I don't think that my suggestion of buying whichever came as the best deal first was a bad idea. You can add the other component (speakers or amp) at a later date. Have you ever tried a different amp with your speakers? Maybe you could demo one from a friend or even from a store to see what it does for your speakers and then make the decision. You might also demo a 30wpc amp with the speakers that you are looking at to see if it will adequately drive them, which I doubt. You would hear quite a difference going from 30wpc to 130wpc. The difference in loudness isn't the big deal, it's the bass response and clarity that you'll get and that should improve dramatically unless your speakers were only rated for 30 watts, which I imagine is not the case.
Bill

[Geoffcin]

I downloaded the manual for my amp and saw that it's 2x30. I always knew that it was 2x60. I don't know why I knew it that way. Anyway, now, I can buy Rotel RB-1070 2X130 Power or those 603 B&W speakers. I will look for more brands but probably I'll choose between those 2. So now, which one will make a big difference? My current speakers can output 120 Watt, so upgrading my amp to 2X130 will increase the power a lot I guess from 2X30. I will be adding about 6 dB more output. But I'll bring my speakers and power to the dealer and demo them separately anyway.

OK, I've got a suggestion for you. Go and BORROW the demo amp your looking at for your setup. Take it home and play YOUR amp for 1/2 HR playing music that you like and know, at the volume you usually listen at. Then switch out the amps, and play EXACTLY the same music, at EXACTLY the same volume. When we do it here we calibrate it with a SPL meter. If you don't have one it will be much harder. Remember that the volume knob setting has nothing to do with the actual volume. Either amp might be more sensitive, so you will have to set the volume by EAR. Now switch back to your amp and do it again. It's not going to be very much fun, but you'll get an idea of what kind of difference a new amp will make. In no way should you turn the volume up to see which one will play louder! That you already know, what your trying to understand is which sounds BETTER, which does not necessarily mean louder.

I like high powered amps. Always did. But I have heard incredible amps with powers as low as 50 watts, so I would keep an open mind before you jump to the conclusion that more power is always better.

[DMK]

They don't seem to satisfy me now. After listening to the demo with those B&W's, my speakers have a weaker sound. Why not buy them if I can afford?

While there is truth to the comment that a pair of speakers aren't going to perform up to their capabilities without a good amp, it's MORE true that a good amp isn't going to turn less capable speakers into something they aren't. By FAR, you will get a better sound by upgrading the speakers. An better amp can later be used to tweak the sound, but the improvement will be marginal - infintesimal compared to the speakers.

Ideally, all your gear should be of essentially the same quality. But if you have to scrimp, do so first on the CD player, next on the amplification, and last on the speakers. I've put together modest systems for dozens of people and the happiest ones are the ones that followed this path. A $1000 CDP, $1000 amp and $200 speakers (as an example) will likely lead to disappointment while a $1500 pair of speakers, $500 amp and $200 CDP will likely sound great! Certainly it could be improved upon but improvements will be much smaller than in the first example by upgrading the speakers.

[iBug]

The manual of the speakers says that recommended Amp power is 25-125 Watt and maximum power handling 125 Watts RMS. I have been using these speakers with a 30 Watt amp as I said. Now, I can afford a 2x130 Watt or even a 2x200 Watt PowerAmp by Rotel. I can buy the RB-1080. It has 2x200 Watt power and unbalanced inputs. It is a high quality amp. But my question is this. If I connect 200 Watt amp to my speakers what will happen? Do I harm the speakers?

Btw, my speakers are not weak as my amp. My amp was the cheapest thing when I bought it but the speakers were 550$ that time. So, upgrading the amp to a really higher model will add lots of clarity to the music I suppose. And after 4 months, I'll upgrade my speakers. Or maybe I will be so much satisfied with the sound I get, I won't consider upgrading my speakers after 4 months.

Btw, when I take my speakers and amp to demo with other speakers and amps, they are using a 6000$ CD transport and DAC which I don't have. So, will that make a huuuuuge difference in the sound? When I come home and connect what I bought to my 380 Euro DVD player will the sound be a loooot worse?

[jbangelfish]

Demo as much as you can both ways and see for yourself. When people say that an amp cannot make a huge difference, they are just wrong. Take an inferior underpowered amp to drive the finest speakers and the speakers will sound like crap. Take a great amp and drive some cheap crappy speakers and you'll be surprised how good they might sound. There is an ass-backwards approach to building stereo systems today that I will never understand. Without a good amp, you have garbage. Do your demos and see for yourself.
I would not recommend going up to 200wpc, that's overkill for your speakers and yes, you could damage them. The fact that you don't have a 6k CD player seems less important, not many people do have such expensive units and get along fine. While many enjoy inexpensive receivers to drive expensive speakers, I would never suggest this practice to anyone. Go listen and you should see why.
Bill

[mtrycraft]

The manual of the speakers says that recommended Amp power is 25-125 Watt and maximum power handling 125 Watts RMS.

It would be nice to know its impedance and its sensitivity, how much SPL for 1 watts of power at 1 meter distance.




I have been using these speakers with a 30 Watt amp as I said. Now, I can afford a 2x130 Watt or even a 2x200 Watt PowerAmp by Rotel.

OK. So, with the 130 watts you get 6dB spl on the peaks only. Certainly doesn't affect you normal listening level, unless you listen at very loud levels constantly which will damage you hearing.


I can buy the RB-1080. It has 2x200 Watt power and unbalanced inputs. It is a high quality amp. But my question is this. If I connect 200 Watt amp to my speakers what will happen? Do I harm the speakers?


You will damage it if you blast it constantly with very high power which would certainly cause you to have hearing loss in a hurry.

Btw, my speakers are not weak as my amp. My amp was the cheapest thing when I bought it but the speakers were 550$ that time.

A misconception that price determines system weakness. Nothing further from the truth. You just surfaced another audio myth.

So, upgrading the amp to a really higher model will add lots of clarity to the music I suppose.

Or it will do nothing for you.


And after 4 months, I'll upgrade my speakers. Or maybe I will be so much satisfied with the sound I get, I won't consider upgrading my speakers after 4 months.


More reason to do careful comparisons before you buy. Careful means avoiding biased comparisons. Maybe your expectaions are beyond reality of audio.

Btw, when I take my speakers and amp to demo with other speakers and amps, they are using a 6000$ CD transport and DAC which I don't have.

Well, that is marketing to BS you into spending lots of money on audio. You may need to find a better place to compare as this place will certainly will try to hype anything they sell and bias any comparisons you will hear. Run away from that store.

Oh, that CD setup is just jewelry, nothing to do with high fidelity in audio.


So, will that make a huuuuuge difference in the sound? When I come home and connect what I bought to my 380 Euro DVD player will the sound be a loooot worse?


Well, you will not be able to do an unbiased comparison of the two CD playes separated so far by distance, time and most of all, your acoustic space, your home and the setup at the store. Don't even try to make any sensible conclusions.

[Pat D]

I have a 5 year old Rotel Poweramp, 2x60, it was one of the entry models that time. I have Mirage 290is Speakers, I got them also 5 years ago. I recently bought a SACD-DVD-A player and a Rotel Pre-Amp. Now, I may consider upgrading my poweramp or my speakers. I can't upgrade both at the same time because of the price so I'm asking you which one should go first?

It seems to me that the speakers should make the bigger difference because it's where the sound comes from. But I didn't go to demo rooms a lot and I don't know which makes bigger difference. A good speaker with a entry level amp or a good amp with an entry level speaker.

At least, that's what I would advise. Your goals are important. What would you like to end up with in the long term? That's the question. When you know that, then you can start working towards it. Take a building block approach, rather than trying to change everything. This can save you a lot of time and money. I can only mention some things to consider:

1. Speaker sensitivity. This is how loud a speaker will play with a 2.83 volt input (which into an 8 ohm load would be 1 watt). There is nothing wrong with your 30 watt Rotel amp. If you buy some more sensitive speakers, perhaps around 90 dB or more, then you would be able to play somewhat louder, if desired. But for listening at reasonable levels 30 watts should be enough. If your amplifier can drive the speakers you really would like to have satisfactorily, then get the speakers.

What if the speakers you want cost more than you can afford? Then wait until you can afford them. Your speakers are pretty good, so why do you need to change them right now? For example, if you want deeper bass, get a subwoofer.

2. Although changing the speakers will make the biggest change in the sound, you might decide to get a large amplifier. There are a couple of Marantz monoblocks you might be able to afford. If you get a new amplifier, try to get one that will drive any speaker you have in mind, or one that you can still use later.

If you can't afford to get the sort of amp you want, then wait until you can. Meanwhile, enjoy the music.

[jbangelfish]

In the way that we approach putting a stereo together. Your use of tube amps makes for a slightly different system which I may find to my liking as well but chose the SS route. The only tubes in my system are in my Cary Phono stage and I consider it to be a very high quality phono preamp. If there is any brightness to the Parasound amps, the tubes in the phono stage seem to take it away and makes for a very nice combination. Just how tube and class A amps are able to do so much more with very little power still baffles me but that's OK.
What happens from 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock on a volume control, to me, says everything about a system. If you achieve near deafening levels before this point then I guess that you must have plenty of power whether it's 10 watts or 1,000 watts. The main concern, again, my way of thinking, is that you can do this with no distortion that you are able to discern with your own ears. I don't really care what test equipment is telling me, if I can't hear it, it does not exist for me. Any system that I've ever had and gotten complete enjoyment from has come to life somewhere past 12 o'clock. If it starts to distort or sound bad in any way or even if it's too loud, for me this system would not have the balance that I'm looking for. At least with the A/B amps that I've had, this was always the way to get the best from them. Again, the tube amps do things differently and play very loud very easily.
I have read of amps that have higher distortion levels at low volume than high volume. I would think this is a bad situation but I've never had one that works this way. My preference for loud music might make it nothing more than an interesting side note and I may even enjoy such an amp, don't really know. I prefer amps and preamps to have distortion levels well below audible range at all levels. If it does not produce audible distortion and you have all your other ducks in a row, you simply won't hear any because there is none. (key word, AUDIBLE, forget the test equipment unless you're writing specs.) I don't know the distortion spec on my Cary, maybe I don't want to know, it sure does sound good.
Always a pleasure to agree with someone.
Bill

[DMK]

. If it does not produce audible distortion and you have all your other ducks in a row, you simply won't hear any because there is none. (key word, AUDIBLE, forget the test equipment unless you're writing specs.) I don't know the distortion spec on my Cary, maybe I don't want to know, it sure does sound good.

I agree about specs. Don't they measure distortion at half power and at only one or two frequencies when they post specs, anyway?

Your distortion specs on your Cary are likely higher than you'd like to read. That should show you just how important specs are to the final sound!

Interesting that we basically agree on things but go about it almost at polar opposites. The only transistors in my system are in my phono stage! But the bottom line is that you and I are more concerned about the final sound than the measurements. I had a measurement perfect system once - a Sony rack system. I didn't even realize that it was so perfect, since the sound coming out of it was so awful. How stupid I was, eh?

By the way, I've graduated from "Site Newbie" to "Junior Member"! How exciting is THAT?!!?!

[iBug]

I went to the store, tested some B&W's and 603 was something I can afford and the sound was excellent compared to my Mirage's. I tested the speakers with my 30 Watt Rotel and they can drive it. I tested the same speakers with a 100 Watt Rotel integrated and the result was better, the bass was more controlled and tightened, you get the idea. So, in 4 months I'll upgrade my Rotel to a RB-1070 with 2x130 Watt and the result will be even better I guess. I am not hunting Watt's, I don't listen at really loud volumes. I didn't loose my hearing that much, yet : ). I'm usually on 9 o'clock on the pre. So, the speakers rock, the deep bass is entertaining since I didn't have that feature before now. Everything bassy sounds excellent. Midrange's are definitely better and tweeter is really high quality. B&W uses Nautilus tweeters in 600 series. I am happy for now. But I remember that earlier when I first started listening to music through these equipments 6 years ago, my hearing was a lot better. I went to some audiologist and did some tests and she said that my hearing is absolutely perfect but still I miss my old ears. They were more perfect. Maybe it's because of age, from 16 to 22 some nerves die I guess. I remember that even in softer volumes I was more satisfied with the sound filling my ears than I am now with louder volumes.
We always have to remember that the most important part of our stereo is our ears.

[thepogue]

the 100 wpc upgrade will do you well !!! enjoy!