Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 26 to 36 of 36
  1. #26
    DMK
    DMK is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    332
    [QUOTE=jbangelfish].
    "In all my years of listening to my own stereos and other's stereos, the single biggest reason that I can think of in regards to dissatisfaction of any stereo, it would be the lack of power that people had with their systems. This is really my only point that I'm trying to make. I'm also talking about quality power which I have not found in receivers."

    Understood and I agree. If your amp doesn't have sufficient power to drive the speakers, the whole system will sound like crap. The speakers I use are 103 db/1 watt/ 1 meter so 25 tubed watts more than meets my needs. 10:00 on the dial gives me lifelike volume and realism.
    And I have yet to find the receiver that gives me anything but distorted sound. OTOH, I haven't come close to hearing them all.

    " I am not a fan of this concept at all and prefer my speaker system to reach low 20hz or below without subwoofers. "

    Same here. I can't say I've ever used a subwoofer but I do use single point source speakers with no crossover. Adding a sub is conceptual anathema, although it may work fine in practice. Luckily, I can achieve
    -3 db at 20 hz.

    " Certainly there is no way to completely recreate a live performance at home but if you have strong enough speakers and enough power, you can get closer than many would believe."

    Completely agree. I'm always baffled by those who claim we're only 1% of the way towards recreating live music in the home. If they truly believe that, I'd have to recommend a system and software check.


    " I read somewhere that turning your volume control to about 3 o'clock should yield concert level or very near concert level volume. "

    How far you turn your dial for concert level volume is system dependent -no hard and fast rules. 3:00 on my system and it may be concert level but it's "your ears pinned to the hall's PA system" concert level, perhaps even louder than that. The experience would be anything but enjoyable and would result in severely damaged hearing in very short order.

    "again with no distortion. If you can't do this with your stereo, I think your missing the boat and this is what I have demonstrated to so many people over the years. "

    Undistorted sound at loud volumes is critical. Interestingly, I've found some components that sound worse at low volumes than at higher.

  2. #27
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    884

    Let's think long term.

    Quote Originally Posted by iBug
    I have a 5 year old Rotel Poweramp, 2x60, it was one of the entry models that time. I have Mirage 290is Speakers, I got them also 5 years ago. I recently bought a SACD-DVD-A player and a Rotel Pre-Amp. Now, I may consider upgrading my poweramp or my speakers. I can't upgrade both at the same time because of the price so I'm asking you which one should go first?

    It seems to me that the speakers should make the bigger difference because it's where the sound comes from. But I didn't go to demo rooms a lot and I don't know which makes bigger difference. A good speaker with a entry level amp or a good amp with an entry level speaker.
    At least, that's what I would advise. Your goals are important. What would you like to end up with in the long term? That's the question. When you know that, then you can start working towards it. Take a building block approach, rather than trying to change everything. This can save you a lot of time and money. I can only mention some things to consider:

    1. Speaker sensitivity. This is how loud a speaker will play with a 2.83 volt input (which into an 8 ohm load would be 1 watt). There is nothing wrong with your 30 watt Rotel amp. If you buy some more sensitive speakers, perhaps around 90 dB or more, then you would be able to play somewhat louder, if desired. But for listening at reasonable levels 30 watts should be enough. If your amplifier can drive the speakers you really would like to have satisfactorily, then get the speakers.

    What if the speakers you want cost more than you can afford? Then wait until you can afford them. Your speakers are pretty good, so why do you need to change them right now? For example, if you want deeper bass, get a subwoofer.

    2. Although changing the speakers will make the biggest change in the sound, you might decide to get a large amplifier. There are a couple of Marantz monoblocks you might be able to afford. If you get a new amplifier, try to get one that will drive any speaker you have in mind, or one that you can still use later.

    If you can't afford to get the sort of amp you want, then wait until you can. Meanwhile, enjoy the music.
    "Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
    ------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.

  3. #28
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Roscoe IL
    Posts
    210

    DMK, I think we agree

    In the way that we approach putting a stereo together. Your use of tube amps makes for a slightly different system which I may find to my liking as well but chose the SS route. The only tubes in my system are in my Cary Phono stage and I consider it to be a very high quality phono preamp. If there is any brightness to the Parasound amps, the tubes in the phono stage seem to take it away and makes for a very nice combination. Just how tube and class A amps are able to do so much more with very little power still baffles me but that's OK.
    What happens from 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock on a volume control, to me, says everything about a system. If you achieve near deafening levels before this point then I guess that you must have plenty of power whether it's 10 watts or 1,000 watts. The main concern, again, my way of thinking, is that you can do this with no distortion that you are able to discern with your own ears. I don't really care what test equipment is telling me, if I can't hear it, it does not exist for me. Any system that I've ever had and gotten complete enjoyment from has come to life somewhere past 12 o'clock. If it starts to distort or sound bad in any way or even if it's too loud, for me this system would not have the balance that I'm looking for. At least with the A/B amps that I've had, this was always the way to get the best from them. Again, the tube amps do things differently and play very loud very easily.
    I have read of amps that have higher distortion levels at low volume than high volume. I would think this is a bad situation but I've never had one that works this way. My preference for loud music might make it nothing more than an interesting side note and I may even enjoy such an amp, don't really know. I prefer amps and preamps to have distortion levels well below audible range at all levels. If it does not produce audible distortion and you have all your other ducks in a row, you simply won't hear any because there is none. (key word, AUDIBLE, forget the test equipment unless you're writing specs.) I don't know the distortion spec on my Cary, maybe I don't want to know, it sure does sound good.
    Always a pleasure to agree with someone.
    Bill

  4. #29
    DMK
    DMK is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    332
    Quote Originally Posted by jbangelfish
    . If it does not produce audible distortion and you have all your other ducks in a row, you simply won't hear any because there is none. (key word, AUDIBLE, forget the test equipment unless you're writing specs.) I don't know the distortion spec on my Cary, maybe I don't want to know, it sure does sound good.
    I agree about specs. Don't they measure distortion at half power and at only one or two frequencies when they post specs, anyway?

    Your distortion specs on your Cary are likely higher than you'd like to read. That should show you just how important specs are to the final sound!

    Interesting that we basically agree on things but go about it almost at polar opposites. The only transistors in my system are in my phono stage! But the bottom line is that you and I are more concerned about the final sound than the measurements. I had a measurement perfect system once - a Sony rack system. I didn't even realize that it was so perfect, since the sound coming out of it was so awful. How stupid I was, eh?

    By the way, I've graduated from "Site Newbie" to "Junior Member"! How exciting is THAT?!!?!

  5. #30
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    20

    I bought B&W 603 S3's today and I'm happy : )

    I went to the store, tested some B&W's and 603 was something I can afford and the sound was excellent compared to my Mirage's. I tested the speakers with my 30 Watt Rotel and they can drive it. I tested the same speakers with a 100 Watt Rotel integrated and the result was better, the bass was more controlled and tightened, you get the idea. So, in 4 months I'll upgrade my Rotel to a RB-1070 with 2x130 Watt and the result will be even better I guess. I am not hunting Watt's, I don't listen at really loud volumes. I didn't loose my hearing that much, yet : ). I'm usually on 9 o'clock on the pre. So, the speakers rock, the deep bass is entertaining since I didn't have that feature before now. Everything bassy sounds excellent. Midrange's are definitely better and tweeter is really high quality. B&W uses Nautilus tweeters in 600 series. I am happy for now. But I remember that earlier when I first started listening to music through these equipments 6 years ago, my hearing was a lot better. I went to some audiologist and did some tests and she said that my hearing is absolutely perfect but still I miss my old ears. They were more perfect. Maybe it's because of age, from 16 to 22 some nerves die I guess. I remember that even in softer volumes I was more satisfied with the sound filling my ears than I am now with louder volumes.
    We always have to remember that the most important part of our stereo is our ears.

  6. #31
    Forum Regular thepogue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Hayes, Va
    Posts
    490

    congrats and enjoy!!!

    the 100 wpc upgrade will do you well !!! enjoy!
    • Mark Levinson No. 27
    • Musical Fidelity 308cr
    • Martin Logan Prodigy's
    • Ariel Acoustics 10-T
    • Rega Planet CD
    • CJ Premier 9 DAC
    • Linn LP12 - Basik Plus - Valhalla
    • Benz Micro Cart.
    • Akai GX 747 Reel to Reel
    • Straight Wire Virtuoso Interconnects

  7. #32
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Roscoe IL
    Posts
    210

    DMK, Congrats on your recent gradiation

    I am also a recent grad, oh boy! Yes, I believe that there are ways of fudging specs but I think most of the better equipment comes with individual tests and quite extensive testing. I can't remember if the entire bandwith was tested in regard to distortion but there was a very long test done on my old Crown and all the specs were handwritten. Some high end stuff specs out rather poorly but people still spend alot of money for it. I'm guessing that at least not all of them are deaf.
    It is kind of funny that your only SS is phono stage and my only tube is phono stage. Something about the balance of the two is very pleasant. I really didn't want to get so many different tubes to worry about. It took me several months to sort out 5 tubes that I liked together and they are all vintage stuff from the 50's or so and cost $20 to $50 apiece or more. If I had more tubes, I'm afraid I'd have to start the whole process again and it is a frustrating process to me.
    Congrats to iBug on his new purchase and his realization of what the added power will do for him in the future. Concerns about hearing at 22? Wait til you turn 50, you will likely notice further deficit. Even so, music can still be great and I've been listening to loud music for quite a long time. I don't blame music for any hearing loss that I may have although some concerts may have caused alittle. Noisy jobs are more likely my problem going from farm machinery to heavy equipment and to fire trucks. None of these occupations have been good for my hearing but I still enjoy music nearly every day. I hope I am able to say this when I'm 70 or so.
    Bill

  8. #33
    DMK
    DMK is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    332
    Quote Originally Posted by jbangelfish
    It is kind of funny that your only SS is phono stage and my only tube is phono stage. Something about the balance of the two is very pleasant. Bill
    I think there's a simple answer for this. I started with all solid state including phono stage, a little world beater at the time - the McCormack Micro Phono stage. My first upgrade was the preamp to tubes, then the amp. When I decided to finally upgrade the phono stage, I think I just had too many tubes! I couldn't find a tubed unit that I liked in the system but the Acoustech filled the bill nicely. I did not audition the Cary.

  9. #34
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Roscoe IL
    Posts
    210

    I was all SS for many years

    And I never minded it at all. When I decided to go to MC cartridges, I had to have something different. I read only a couple of reviews of the Cary PH301 and what people had to say interested me. I found one used on Audiogon for about $800 and after a few months and another few hundred bucks, found some tubes that I liked. It actually didn't sound too bad with the Chinese cheapos that it came with but they were a little ringy. Many older tubes really brought it to life and I now enjoy Sylvania Gold pins and Amperex bugle boys as they seemed to sound the best. If it were not for Audio Asylum and all the tube nuts there, it may have taken me years to find what I thought sounded the best and I may have given up.
    I did compare it to a friend's CJ preamp (PV3, I think) in my system and he had to agree that the Cary sounded much better. The CJ is quite old but we both thought it should have done better. This was when I still had a MM cartridge (Grado) and there was still a substantial difference. When I switched to the Fidelity Research MC, things really got better. I have never gotten so much from vinyl. I don't know what improvements have been made to the Cary but at nearly 4k, I don't think I'll find out any time soon. The original version works very well.
    Bill

  10. #35
    DMK
    DMK is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    332
    CJ was my second power amp, replacing an old Adcom. It was a solid state job, the MF2200. It used Mosfets and was a definite step up from the Adcom. Nothing wrong with the CJ but it was the last SS power amp I owned As for MM cartridges, I still own the original Clearaudio Virtuoso before they put wood on the body. It has a very different sound than the MC's, less clarity but also less surface noise. I'd like to be like Hifitommy and have two tonearms on my turntable so I mount both cartridges. The MM would be nice for older, beat up LP's. I'm not sure how it subdues the surface noise (probably by disguising some of the music - like a CD does) but it's nice at times.

    If I could own any set of electronics I wanted, it would be the Wyetech Labs Opal linestage and the Wyetech Topaz SET amp - at around $16K for the combination. My speakers are $7500 new so your posts about electronics first works in this case! But no spending $16K on amps for me! I'm not unhappy with what I have by any means - in fact, I'm VERY happy with it. But these amps would be a half step up. But then again, all amps sound the same so what am I talking about anyway!

  11. #36
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Roscoe IL
    Posts
    210

    I just don't get out to listen to new stuff

    It's all so expensive to me. I read individual reviews in addition to reading the hype from the manufacturers but the individual reviews mean alot more to me. I'm sure that I would enjoy listening to your speakers very much but I spent one tenth of that on mine and am quite happy to listen to them. What they are capable of is quite close to what you have and they even go a tad lower to 18hz. Yours may very well be better overall and I think they should be.
    I have about 4k or 5k in all of my other components combined and all were bought used except for NOS cartridges which would be 2k or 3k if they were still made. Sounds pretty good for old and used stuff. If I bought it all new would be 20k or more and who knows what the speakers would cost (probably near what yours do). It's a fair amount of money anyway but sounds like alot more than I spent. My priorities and how I look at things are what they are.
    I have put together the finest system that I have ever owned over about a two year period and for 5k or so, sounds like a million bucks to me.
    Bill

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Spend $2,300.00 on speakers HELP
    By Homer in forum Speakers
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 12-29-2003, 04:59 PM
  2. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 12-28-2003, 05:54 PM
  3. Underpowering speakers?
    By gdew in forum Speakers
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 12-16-2003, 04:30 AM
  4. Floor Speakers 2-way or 3-way ????
    By bcexpedition in forum Speakers
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-01-2003, 09:15 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •