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  1. #1
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    Reference CDs Revisited

    Before the site changed their BBS software, many of us were engaged in the problem of deciding upon criteria that we need to be able to have a common reference CD.

    For those of you who were not privvy to this discussion, in short, we were in agreement that a common refernce CD would enable us all, in a more tangible manner, to relate to improvemnts which members have discovered, bought or implemented to their systems.

    Our first round of discussion led us to settle on Belà Fleck and The Flecktones "Flight Of The Cosmic Hippo" as a tentative step in this direction. I and many others either already had this CD or aquired it.

    We kicked the question about a bit and it was decided that this singular CD was not sufficient, in itself, to serve as a reference CD for a number of reasons. It was suggested that, although an excellent CD, it was an "electronic" sound and that what we really needed were different natural accoustic recordings which would reveal the true qualties that we are looking for.

    To my recollection, there is no single recording which embraces all of our requirements but, I have not allowed myself to become daunted by this and have given the matter considerable thought.

    My conclusions are that we, in fact, require two CDs. One which has a full spectrum of different frequencies which play for a certain duration and at the same amplitude. This would help to form the basis of our reference.

    The second CD would need to be a special compilation of different artists, from different recording companies, which are all sound-levelled. This would be the hard part, I feel, because recording companies are in the business of making money out of recording and publishing sound.

    My idea is that both of these CDs should be made available as ISO mirror images of the originals and that everyone should dowload their own reference CDs and burn them themselves. Alternatively (for there is quite a lot of prestige in having a recording included in a general reference CD) that the recording companies could cooperate on this project to sell these CDs as a two CD set.

    Any input?

  2. #2
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    I don't know if you can ever have a "common reference" CD because everybody uses their system for different purposes and has different priorities. It seems more like an exercise in futility because none of us know what the actual musicians and instruments sound like in the studio where the recording was done. (That is if we go on the premise of acoustic instruments as the reference of choice) With electronic and amplified instruments, it gets even more muddled because who knows what a digital keyboard is "supposed" to sound like.

    Just take your example of Bela Fleck and the Flecktones. For me, it makes no sense to use his material as a reference because 1) I'm not into bluegrass and have limited familiarity with banjo music and what the instrument sounds like up close; 2) I'm not familiar with any of his CDs, so if I brought it into an audio demo, I would be listening to it for the first time; and 3) my music of choice is what I listen to, not necessarily what's merely recorded well.

    My preferred method is to go with material that I'm very familiar with, and have heard for a long time through repeated listenings on my various systems (car, computer, home audio, etc.). That way, any changes in how an audio demo conveys the music are easily noted. With less familiar reference CDs, am I making a commentary on system changes or changes in how I perceive a recording as I listen to it more?

    For the past four years, I've been using an identical set of test CDs that encompass everything from trip-hop to straight-ahead jazz to modern swing to funk to rock to classical. The quality of the recordings varies from exceptional (live-to-two-track studio session done with no overdubs) to problematic (overprocessed multitracked recording). But, everything that's in that set approximates what I listen to on a regular basis, and it's stuff that I know very well. This is a far cry from a "common reference". Then again, my demos are not meant to be generalized for how other people intend to use their systems, but for how a particular system fits into my intended use and my personal definitions of what sounds accurate or good.

    I know that a lot of audiophiles like to overload on female vocal tracks from the likes of Patricia Barber, Janis Ian, or Diana Krall. But, if I don't listen to their stuff or even like it much in the first place, why would I want to listen to something repeatedly during audio demos just because someone tells me that it sounds good or meets a certain set of technical criteria?

  3. #3
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    I have to agrree with Woochifer and I did exactly what I should not ahve done. I bought Patricia Barber's Cafe Blue because it is the reference recording the magazines were using. I don't dislike her but I don't love her either and I rarely ever play her cd - just one song and that is more as a tester for alignment of speakers.

    There is the traditional school of thought that Woochifer notes of bringing all the cds you love or all the cds you love and that sound good. But after reading a well constructed essay on comparison by contrast this method has the flaw that every time we go in and listen to a system with a recording we know well we "expect" it to sound the way we think it OUGHT to sound rather than the way it actually sounds. For instance i used to bring the Yellowjackets greatest hits cd everywhere because the first track was very well recorded I liked it etc. But I had it in my head it sounded like X and when other speakers didn't get close I thought the speaker was off - well maybe it was my reference point that was off the whole time. Conversely Amanda Marshal's first cd I always thought was a pretty lousy recording - it sounded better on my Wharfedales than it did on some 100k systems - so I assumed those Cabasse speakers were merely extracting out all the flaws on the disc. Ahh not so I would find out later.

    This article from audio note does not just apply to audio note and was written originally for Positive Feedback and is simply a way to audion gear without bringing unnecessary biases into the audition - it will work on any gear not just Audio Note and best of all you don't need t be a self proclaimed or any other proclaimed golden ear. This is a long article but they get to it under the heading "The proposed method: Comparison by contrast."
    http://www.audionote.co.uk/anp1.htm

  4. #4
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    The Acid Test

    The whole idea of using a reference CD in these forums is to be able to relate how different improvements and changes have effected and improved our personal listening experience.

    Let me give you an example:
    I was more or less happy listening to my B&W 602's but was thinking about how I missed the lower frequencies. As luck would have it, I was offered a demo AudioPro subwoofer which I snapped up.
    I connected the subwoofer according to the instructions which follow and I was set - or so I thought.
    My first evening of listening sent me to bed with a headache. After about a year of experimentation, it struck me that it would be more natural to connect the subwoofer in parallell with the speaker outputs.
    This had the effect of achieving exactly what I was looking for when I decided upon buying it. In parallell coupling the satelites and the subwoofer, I achieved two things. The first was that I completely bypassed the subwoofer's high pass filter (a 1000 microFarad capacitor.) I had figured that the 602's natural roll-off of 53 Hz would also work as a "high pass filter." This gave me back the brightness in my tweeters. Secondly, in using a parallell connection, I forced the subwoofer into using only the voltage aspects of the output signal which only consumes a few milliamperes. It does this anyway to accommodate the built in amp.
    Now to the reason behind the story. I have Béla Fleck, as previously agreed and, whereas before, the bass was boomy and overbearing at times, it now fitted snuggly into place. The clarity of my satelites was greatly improved to the extent that I didn't care much for the coloration of Béla Fleck's banjo pickup when the other instruments sounded crystal clear.
    My final test was a recording of Jennifer Warnes, "The Hunter" which I affectionately call the subwoofer murderer. Once I had slightly adjusted the volume of the subwoofer to accommodate this CD, I am once again a happy man.
    If you own the Béla Fleck CD, you'll know what I mean.

  5. #5
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    curiosity of your demo material

    woochifer might I ask you what you would recommend as demo material for comparing loudspeakers? amazingly I am a salesperson in the home theater field without a GOOD demo cd for music, also perhaps you have recommendations on dvd's that utilize surround sound? particularly i was interested in the 'trip-hop to straight-ahead jazz to modern swing to funk to rock to classical' selections! thanks a lot



    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    I don't know if you can ever have a "common reference" CD because everybody uses their system for different purposes and has different priorities. It seems more like an exercise in futility because none of us know what the actual musicians and instruments sound like in the studio where the recording was done. (That is if we go on the premise of acoustic instruments as the reference of choice) With electronic and amplified instruments, it gets even more muddled because who knows what a digital keyboard is "supposed" to sound like.

    Just take your example of Bela Fleck and the Flecktones. For me, it makes no sense to use his material as a reference because 1) I'm not into bluegrass and have limited familiarity with banjo music and what the instrument sounds like up close; 2) I'm not familiar with any of his CDs, so if I brought it into an audio demo, I would be listening to it for the first time; and 3) my music of choice is what I listen to, not necessarily what's merely recorded well.

    My preferred method is to go with material that I'm very familiar with, and have heard for a long time through repeated listenings on my various systems (car, computer, home audio, etc.). That way, any changes in how an audio demo conveys the music are easily noted. With less familiar reference CDs, am I making a commentary on system changes or changes in how I perceive a recording as I listen to it more?

    For the past four years, I've been using an identical set of test CDs that encompass everything from trip-hop to straight-ahead jazz to modern swing to funk to rock to classical. The quality of the recordings varies from exceptional (live-to-two-track studio session done with no overdubs) to problematic (overprocessed multitracked recording). But, everything that's in that set approximates what I listen to on a regular basis, and it's stuff that I know very well. This is a far cry from a "common reference". Then again, my demos are not meant to be generalized for how other people intend to use their systems, but for how a particular system fits into my intended use and my personal definitions of what sounds accurate or good.

    I know that a lot of audiophiles like to overload on female vocal tracks from the likes of Patricia Barber, Janis Ian, or Diana Krall. But, if I don't listen to their stuff or even like it much in the first place, why would I want to listen to something repeatedly during audio demos just because someone tells me that it sounds good or meets a certain set of technical criteria?

  6. #6
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffhallock
    woochifer might I ask you what you would recommend as demo material for comparing loudspeakers? amazingly I am a salesperson in the home theater field without a GOOD demo cd for music, also perhaps you have recommendations on dvd's that utilize surround sound? particularly i was interested in the 'trip-hop to straight-ahead jazz to modern swing to funk to rock to classical' selections! thanks a lot
    Well, lemme preface this by saying that I chose my demo material because I'm very familiar with all of those discs (having heard them dozens of times on many different systems over the years) and they are indicative of the type of music that I generally listen to. Here's my current set of demo discs and the reasons why I use them.

    Jazzanova - The Remixes
    Very full range "nujazz" recording with a wide array of percussion instruments, electronic and acoustic instruments, and deep acoustic bass notes. Highly recommended.

    The Crystal Method - Tweekend
    My trip-hop reference; a lot of messing with the phase to impart spatiality and a lot of thump in the bass

    Aurora
    Straight ahead/avant garde acoustic jazz; probably my best recording; originally done live to two-track in studio. I use this because I've seen the band live in a variety of settings and have heard the actual instruments in person up close before. CD is out of print and originally released on the Denon PCM label.

    Royal Crown Revue - The Contender
    modern swing recording, not especially well done multitracked recording and can sound muddy on a lot of systems; but I listen to a lot of this type of music and this band especially (in fact, I just saw them play a club gig last night). I use this recording to see how well a system can differentiate the sounds.

    Metallica - Load
    Not their best album, but the recording is pretty typical of newer metal and alternative recordings, with a lot of kick in the midbass.

    Orff - Carmina Burana (San Francisco Symphony)
    The SFS's 1990 Grammy winner. Recorded at Davies Symphony Hall and I've seen the SFS perform this piece at that venue twice before. Excellent recording with some of the most startling center imaging I've ever heard.

    Liquid Soul - Make Some Noise
    Chicago funk/jazz/rock jam band. Combination of live and studio recordings that are variable in quality, but nothing outstanding. Another band that I've seen live at the venue where the recording was done.

    Hank Mobley - Roll Call (96/24 DAD)
    The 96/24 DADs have to be played back through a DVD player, but the ones I've heard can sound astonishingly good. Mobley's 1961 jazz recording has some incredible playing and the playback quality with the 96/24 audio disc is very clean. Not the best recording for piano or drum sounds, but great with horns and bass.

    Gershwin - Works for Orchestra and Piano - St. Louis Symphony (96/24 DAD)
    Excellent classical recording with great range and imaging. Recorded with minimal overdubbing.

    For surround demos, I had previously used Gladiator, but more recently my favorite movie soundtrack has been Master and Commander -- amazing in how it conveys both location AND a sense of how large or small a space is. Plus, the recording quality with the voices is very good, and the bass in the cannon shots is very impressive.

    For multichannel music, I would recommend Steely Dan's "Everything Must Go" DVD-A. Recording has some amazing imaging cues that take full advantage of a good timbre matched 5.1 setup. Same thing with Pat Metheny's "Imaginary Day."

  7. #7
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    Well, lemme preface this by saying that I chose my demo material because I'm very familiar with all of those discs (having heard them dozens of times on many different systems over the years) and they are indicative of the type of music that I generally listen to. Here's my current set of demo discs and the reasons why I use them.

    Jazzanova - The Remixes
    Very full range "nujazz" recording with a wide array of percussion instruments, electronic and acoustic instruments, and deep acoustic bass notes. Highly recommended.

    The Crystal Method - Tweekend
    My trip-hop reference; a lot of messing with the phase to impart spatiality and a lot of thump in the bass

    Aurora
    Straight ahead/avant garde acoustic jazz; probably my best recording; originally done live to two-track in studio. I use this because I've seen the band live in a variety of settings and have heard the actual instruments in person up close before. CD is out of print and originally released on the Denon PCM label.

    Royal Crown Revue - The Contender
    modern swing recording, not especially well done multitracked recording and can sound muddy on a lot of systems; but I listen to a lot of this type of music and this band especially (in fact, I just saw them play a club gig last night). I use this recording to see how well a system can differentiate the sounds.

    Metallica - Load
    Not their best album, but the recording is pretty typical of newer metal and alternative recordings, with a lot of kick in the midbass.

    Orff - Carmina Burana (San Francisco Symphony)
    The SFS's 1990 Grammy winner. Recorded at Davies Symphony Hall and I've seen the SFS perform this piece at that venue twice before. Excellent recording with some of the most startling center imaging I've ever heard.

    Liquid Soul - Make Some Noise
    Chicago funk/jazz/rock jam band. Combination of live and studio recordings that are variable in quality, but nothing outstanding. Another band that I've seen live at the venue where the recording was done.

    Hank Mobley - Roll Call (96/24 DAD)
    The 96/24 DADs have to be played back through a DVD player, but the ones I've heard can sound astonishingly good. Mobley's 1961 jazz recording has some incredible playing and the playback quality with the 96/24 audio disc is very clean. Not the best recording for piano or drum sounds, but great with horns and bass.

    Gershwin - Works for Orchestra and Piano - St. Louis Symphony (96/24 DAD)
    Excellent classical recording with great range and imaging. Recorded with minimal overdubbing.

    For surround demos, I had previously used Gladiator, but more recently my favorite movie soundtrack has been Master and Commander -- amazing in how it conveys both location AND a sense of how large or small a space is. Plus, the recording quality with the voices is very good, and the bass in the cannon shots is very impressive.

    For multichannel music, I would recommend Steely Dan's "Everything Must Go" DVD-A. Recording has some amazing imaging cues that take full advantage of a good timbre matched 5.1 setup. Same thing with Pat Metheny's "Imaginary Day."
    Hi Woochifer,
    it seems that I missed your previous post. Don't ask me how - it was long enough lol.

    Let me begin by saying that I'm not into Bluegrass music either although I am into folk music and Béla Fleck hardly plays bluegrass. I don't care much for the CD either but I have previously agreed with others on AR to use this as a reference CD until we can come up with something better. I try to be a man of my word.

    I also have personal test LPs and CDs. These have a number of different characteristics which I look for, when testing any changes in my hifi. In a previous reply, I mentioned one of them - Jennifer Warnes "The Hunter" which has an over exaggerated bass. This I use to test the limits to which I can comfortably listen to bass notes, either from a drum, accoustic bass or electric bass and other sources, such as the cannons in Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture.

    I like to use some of Joni Mitchell's earlier recordings, not because of their perfections but because of their imperfections such as microphone coloration and erroneous noises. One such erronious noise that I listen for is the sound of her feet on the piano pedals, but that's just me.

    I don't claim that Béla Fleck is the perfect or only reference CD (actually, I hate it) but it is a beginning. And, to those who agreed that it would help others to better understand the improvements in individual systems, it serves a purpose.

    Instead of reading a post and having to wade through "awesome", "incredible" etc, the whole spectrum of adjectives which could mean just about anything, I can sit down and play that CD. Then perhaps ask as to whether that person can hear this or that sound. If not, then I am in a better situation to suggest improvements.

    For transient testing, I quite like Stockhausen. There are also some modern composers who are beginning to implement some of Stockhausen's influences into their own works.

    When one thinks about it constructively, your whole collection is your own reference library. The problem we're involved in here is how to convey an experience in a way that others can identify with.

    We're all hifi freaks here. Let's share the fun?

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    "HATED IT"?... WTF?...

    ...only kiddin' ya, but Bela Fleck (and his band) are seriously sick, talanted, monster individuals. NO ONE that plays the bass would say "Wooten sucks" or that Fleck himself can't play a banjo... and 'FutureMan" with his synth-ax drumitar... lol. Again, just joshin' you, ya don't like it, ya don't like it.

    I probably voted for B.F. in the long-ago thread (not "Flight", though) simply because it is recorded VERY well. If one wants to hear minute diffs in cables, or differences in speakers... well, there is a lot to hear on these discs. As a matter of fact, Fleck uses a certain "3/8" (whatever it was) tape to do his recording... I doubt Madonna or Megadeath take such measures (and it sound it ;*) Well, some of HER stuff is good... especially LP, IMO... hehe.

    Point is, there IS no ref recordings... buy what sounds good on YOUR music.

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    No offence meant, Jimmy. It's just not my usual taste in music. I'm more into lyrics as well as music. Having said that, I do have the Flight Of The Cosmic Hippo to be able to relate any improvements.

    Is it just my imagination or do the drums move about from track to track?

    3/8" tape would suggest a 4 track analogue tape recorder.

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    I'll assume you mean...

    ..."moving about" within the soundstage - yeah, there are a few examples of this I can hear (I have it on now). Or, sometimes the placement of different cymbals (crash or ride... whatever) seem to eminate from different areas. The kick drum is usually planted in the middle (as far as I can tell).

    Well, after all, the drums are simulated so they can put 'em wherever they want!

    Again, me was just teasin' ya, no offense taken ;^)

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    None taken, Jimmy. I think it's nice that we can have a frank and honest discussion about things.

    I'm just the kind of person who finds mobile drum sets a little unnerving

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