Finally it starts! Snatched a refurb Klipsch center channel.

[Wits]

After months of reading reviews, advertisements, marketing blather, and forum posts by the hundreds, I'm finally beginning the actual purchasing stage of gathering the equipment for my new Home Theater. Though I cringe at calling it that after seeing the drop-dead gorgeous examples of Home Theaters that some of you folks have in your homes!

I actually began the process about a week and a half ago, but my Onkyo receiver arrived with a good-sized hole in the box, so I sent it back to Amazon. I really felt I needed the extra time anyway, so I'll just use today as my official starting point.

Let me start out by explaining where I am beginning my journey. I currently have only two smallish front speakers and a subwoofer--all by Klipsch--and a 27" JVC CRT television. So, my quest is to find compatible speakers for my existing Klipsch speakers to complete a 5.1 (or at bare minimum a 3.1) setup, buy a widescreen HDTV, blu-ray player, tv stand, and AV-Receiver.

Also, there are a couple of wrinkles. Ideally I'd like to find a blu-ray player that also plays SACD discs, but that is going slowly now. The current-generation PS3 doesn't play them, and neither apparently does my first-choice stand-alone blu-ray player, the Panasonic DMP-BD35K.

Anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself. During my intel-gathering, since my speakers were Klipsch, I found myself seeking information from their tech-support folks at the factory. And, while they didn't point me toward Klipsch on Ebay, I discovered that earlier today. Among the items there was a refurbished center channel speaker that had such similar stats that I believe it was the replacement for the center channel that Klipsch had earlier recommended for me. (Ebay=RC-35; Klipsch recommended=RC-62).

At any rate, I snatched the RC-35 from someone for $255 + 10 shipping. So I now have at least a 3.1 speaker system, heh.

[RoadRunner6]

Wits, You are making a good start while obviously staying within a reasonable budget. Unfortunately you didn't say what model of Onkyo you ordered.

Many here are not real fond of the Klipsch sound. However, they are very dynamic which few other speakers can match without a huge expensive amp. I think they are just fine, especially if you like the sound of the RB-5's. One thing great is they are very, very efficient (also known as sensitivity). The RB-5 and RC-35 both have a sensitivity of 96dB's. This means they will produce 96 decibels (very loud) with one watt at a distance of one meter. This is the standard method. An increase of 3 decibels requires twice the power. A 3 decibel increase is only a slightly audible increase in sound volume. The average bookshelf speaker is rated at about 87-88 dB's. This means that the average bookshelf speaker will take approx. 8 times the power to play at the same volume as those Klipsch! Your Klipsch with a receiver with 100 watts per channel will be equivelent to an average bookshelf speaker matched with a 13 watt per channel receiver! The point here is that you will have no problem ever running out of power to reproduce the very loudest music or movie soundtracks.

Don't play down those RB-5's. They are a very decent speaker. Don't make the mistake of thinking you need a big tower. The RB-5's are down to 48Hz at -3dB's. You should be crossing over your RB-5's and the RC-35's to the LF-10 sub at 80Hz or no lower than 70Hz. That means the RB-5 and RC-35 have all the low bass you need because the sub takes over the bass from there on down. In your speaker setup of the receiver you should designate all three of the front Klipsch as "small" and not large. This will send all the bass below 80Hz plus the LFE bass to the subwoofer where it belongs.

The factory was mentioning the RC-62 because it is the current center channel model but not a perfect match but probably OK. Look at the information below on each speaker and you will find that the original match for the RB-5 is the RC-3 center and the RS-3 surround. That means they all have the same exact tweeter, compare the exact description of the tweeter including model number. Your newer RC-35 is an exact match for the RB-35 bookshelf and the RS-35 surround, all discontinued models, which you would have to buy used. If you want a perfect match then it would be wise to look for the more recent used RB-35 and RS-35.

The question is, are the front three you now have a good match? Looks they they might be fine as the tweeters in the RB-5 and RC-35 are probably quite similar. The way to tell is to see if they have the exact or very close voicing/timbre. You can test for yourself by playing some white or pink noise. If you don't have a test CD you can substitute by playing either the speaker setup test tone from your receiver or by using interstation FM noise. That is the hiss noise that is present when you are between channels or when your FM antenna in not connected and you just get hiss.

Using one of these listen to the RB-5 and RC-35 to see if the character of the noise is a perfect match or quite close. Both of the RB-5's should be identical. Having this close or perfect match gives you the smooth pan across the front due to the same voicing from all three speakers. The same applies to the surround speakers for the best 5 seaker surround sound.

From the specs it looks like that LF-10 should be a fine performing sub. The sub can be from any brand or different series from the same brand.

Hope this helps.

RR6

http://www.klipsch.com/products/disc...ails/rb-5.aspx

http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/rc-35.aspx

http://www.klipsch.com/products/disc...ils/rb-35.aspx

http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/rs-35.aspx

http://www.klipsch.com/products/disc...ils/lf-10.aspx

http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/rc-62.aspx

[kexodusc]

Hey congrats on the new toys. Building a system is always a lot of fun, each step brings something new and brings you that much closer to audio heaven. Keep us up to date on your progress.
And yeah, what receiver was it?

[Rich-n-Texas]

Congats Wits. Let me straighten out one wrinkle for ya. The current gen PS3 DOES play SACD's just fine. I'm listening to Genesis: "Wind & Wuthering" on SACD right now in Multi-channel and it sounds darn good!

Keep an eye out for stand-alone Blu-ray player prices to drop even more after Thanksgiving.

Have fun! Spend money!

[blackraven]

Best Buy has their Insignia brand Blu-Ray player for $169 presently.

If you dont mind waiting about 6-9 months, Oppo Digital will be coming out with a Blu-Ray player that is supposed to play SACD as well but it may cost several hundred. Oppo does make some very nice Universal DVD, SACD players for under $200 and they give great DVD playback and good SACD playback. Standard CD is average. www.oppodigital.com

The 980 is better for audio and the 981 is better for video. The more expensive 983 is equally good for both.

[Wits]

Hey guys, thanks for the responses!

The receiver I originally ordered (and sent back) was the Onkyo TX-SR606. I still haven't completely decided on its replacement. I guess my primary area of confusion is what things in a receiver are most important...things that I really don't want to leave off even if it means stepping up to an $800 or so model. I've seen mentioned things such as Burr-Brown, toroidal transformers, and a whole truckload of acronyms! I am plodding along, going to Wikipedia and looking things up trying to make sense of things, but it's tough.

One thing in particular really has me stumped: I know that I am looking for a receiver that has HDMI inputs, and preferably the more the better. I also know that blu-ray players do something called 'upconvert' or 'transcode' to DVD's to make their picture quality better. But I've heard that a receiver also does upconverting, and has something else called pass through. If I put in a DVD in a Blu-ray player, which is going to transode my movie? And is there a way to tell which unit (the receiver or the BD player) will do a better job of transcoding? If so, can I select which one will do it?

By the way, the Blu-ray player I've pretty much settled on is either a Panasonic DMP-BD35 or a Sony PS-3.

Rich-N-Texas, are you certain your PS3 is playing SACD's in SACD format rather than in DVD? I've read that the newer 80GB PS3's don't support SACD.

I'm sorry to be a pain; thanks in advance for any replies!

P.S. I almost scored a set of Klipsch RB-81's on AudiogoN, they were unused and right at half-msrp but I no longer see the ad so I guess someone else got them. Kinda puzzling how some of the ads say sold and stay up though...I keep wondering if I missed seeing it this time.

P.P.S. Another thing I'm debating on is whether to use a pair of surround speakers in the back and keep my RB-5's in the front or use a pair of regular speakers in a more 'traditional' setup.

P.P.P.S. RR6, THANK YOU for such a wonderful post explaining so much. I'm very sorry I forgot until the end to properly thank you.

[kexodusc]

One thing in particular really has me stumped: I know that I am looking for a receiver that has HDMI inputs, and preferably the more the better. I also know that blu-ray players do something called 'upconvert' or 'transcode' to DVD's to make their picture quality better. But I've heard that a receiver also does upconverting, and has something else called pass through. If I put in a DVD in a Blu-ray player, which is going to transode my movie? And is there a way to tell which unit (the receiver or the BD player) will do a better job of transcoding? If so, can I select which one will do it?

Yeah...DVD/BluRay players and Receivers might have video processing in them - this is what does the "upscaling". Which one does a better job, well that depends. The component with the best upscaling chip will do the best job. And no, you don't want to apply the processing more than once. I've helped a lot of people set up their systems, and in my experience, the difference in most recievers in the $1200 and less price range is minimal, and about on par with DVD players in the $150-$300 price range. The differences aren't big, but the odd artifact can appear, and there are some exceptions. It would be pretty hard to recommend a model to based on the upscaling feature alone I think. Most do a fairly decent job these days, where even 2 short years ago, it was inconsistent, or not even available. As you spend more money, the processing gets better, to a point.

Most people try applying the processing each component 1 at a time to see which they feel is the better performer, then use that.

Oh, and Passthrough is just as it sounds...it passes the signal through without upscaling the picture.

P.P.S. Another thing I'm debating on is whether to use a pair of surround speakers in the back and keep my RB-5's in the front or use a pair of regular speakers in a more 'traditional' setup.

What do you mean "surround speakers"? Ideally you want the same speakers as your front mains, or smaller versions of them, say from the same product line. So whatever RB-series speaker is available. Of course budgets and real world factors can play a limiting role in this...

[Wits]

What do you mean "surround speakers"? Ideally you want the same speakers as your front mains, or smaller versions of them, say from the same product line. So whatever RB-series speaker is available. Of course budgets and real world factors can play a limiting role in this...

Surround speakers are shaped differently than conventional speakers, for one thing. Instead of having one 'face' of components, i.e., one woofer and one tweeter facing one direction, surrounds have one woofer and one tweeter facin. RR6 put a link to one of them in his post in this thread--it's the one that ends in rs-35.aspx.

I didn't know that ideally I should strive for two pairs of the same speakers for a 5.1 setup. Though in retrospect it makes sense that you'd want to have equal speakers so as not to have the fronts overpowering the rears, for example.

[L.J.]

Rich-N-Texas, are you certain your PS3 is playing SACD's in SACD format rather than in DVD? I've read that the newer 80GB PS3's don't support SACD.

I think the 80g MGS4 version that Rich has was the last "fully loaded" PS3 to support some PS2 BC & has SACD support. You'd have to hunt one down or get a used 20 or 60g. There are several other versions floating around but they don't support SACD.

[blackraven]

Stick with the Onkyo 606. Its a very good receiver. It has plenty of power and features. There is no point in going for the 706, only the 806 or 876 would be somewhat of an improvement with a lot more power a maybe a few more features. Also, dont concern yourself with torroidal power transformers. You wont notice a difference.

[Wits]

Stick with the Onkyo 606. Its a very good receiver. It has plenty of power and features. There is no point in going for the 706, only the 806 or 876 would be somewhat of an improvement with a lot more power a maybe a few more features. Also, dont concern yourself with torroidal power transformers. You wont notice a difference.

Do you mean that because I don't have speakers good enough to image the differences of the receivers that I won't be able to notice the differences between, say the Onkyo 606 and the Onkyo 806 with the Toroidal transformers? Or is there another reason? I'm not trying to be difficult, understand, it's just now I'm unfortunately more confused than ever when someone says that I should avoid a higher-end model because I won't be able to tell it apart.

As usual, thanks!

[Rich-n-Texas]

L.J., as per usual is correct. The newest 80 gig version apparently does not have SACD support, but the one I purchased back in the summer does have support for it as well as backward compatibilty for PS1 & 2 games. Don't ask me why Sony does that; my bundle was $100. more than the current offering, so even though I have very few SACD titles, the ones I do have sound quite phenominal.

[blackraven]

You want to use speakers from the same product line in a HT set up to get the best continuity of sound.

[Wits]

You want to use speakers from the same product line in a HT set up to get the best continuity of sound.

I'm pretty sure the Klipsch Reference Surround and the Reference Bookshelf are considered to be in the same product line, as Klipsch bundles the two in their HT packages.

[blackraven]

The 706 is only 10wpc more than the 606- 90 vs 100wpc. They probably have the same exact power transformer but are just rated differently. Manufacturers like to play with spec's and ratings of similar models. The 806 is 130wpc.

As far as toroidal vs non toroidal goes. You wont notice any difference in sound at this price point. Toroidal power transformers can make a difference when we are talking about higher end equipment. They are more efficient, lighter in weight, create less noise (they have less electromagnetic leakage) and interference and run cooler. They are also smaller and take up less space.

Laminated power transformers have been used for years and they work well.

[blackraven]

Here's a link comparing some of the onkyo receivers http://www.faqware.com/Receivers/Onk...ison_2008.html

And here's an interesting article on power ratings

http://www.audioholics.com/education...-power-ratings

[Wits]

Excellent!! Thanks blackraven I'm reading them now. While Google is a great search engine it can bog you down with too much info, so it's nice when someone like yourself helps filter it down a bit.

Edit: I guess somewhere I gave the impression I was concerned about more power as my primary motivation for upgrading from 606. This is not the case at all. The techs at Klipsch tell me that I need to make sure I can deliver 100 watts to drive their speakers, and from what I've heard the 606 can do that, despite that it is rated at 90.

My reasons for potentially wanting an upgrade from the Onkyo 606 (and that includes using a different brand as well) is to ensure I don't overlook a feature that I'll really miss down the road.

[Scott W]

I don't get around to posting around here much but I came across yours and thought I would put in my 2 cents since I have a similar system Onkyo/Klipsch for HT,The receiver you sent back is 7.1 so you can run both surround and surround back speakers.I use KG3.5s for those myself, RF 82s for fronts and a KV 2 for the center.Mine is not not matched but sounds great just the same.My receiver is a couple years old(TX-SR604) but basicly the same as the 606 which has 4 HDMI inputs vs only 2 on mine.I believe you mentioned get a new tv as well so I thought I would mention that some of the newer ones have 2 or more HDMI inputs themselves.Personally I prefer to run the HDMI staight to my plasma from either my sat. box or DVD and use optical or coax to the receiver,this way you can watch with or without using your surround system.Works for me since the wife and I work and sleep different hours.Putting together any system can be fun(and addicting)so enjoy

[Wits]

Thanks, Scott! That's an excellent idea as I'm sure there will be times when I will not want to fire up the stereo just to watch some tv.

I actually have some news that I was going to post anyway. I just ordered another 606 so hopefully it will arrive safely toward the end of next week.

I've got Transformers on Blu-ray coming as well; probably not the best disc to show off my new tv with, but the price was right at $10!

[Wits]

Well I couldn't wait any longer. I was busy throughout the night!

It didn't appear that the price would get any better, so I jumped on Amazon.com and ordered the Panasonic TH50PZ800U and the Panasonic DMP-BD35 Blu-ray player. Also a few movies while I was at it.

From Target.com I picked up a nice, modern-looking stand which should hold everything nicely. Landed 15% off and free shipping from there.

My center channel is supposed to be delivered today. J&R should be processing the order for the receiver today and getting a tracking number to me so hopefully I'll know when to expect that later today.

All I need now is a pair of speakers for the rear and I'll be set! (and broke!)

[RoadRunner6]

If you notice what I said in my post way above:

".........If you want a perfect match then it would be wise to look for the more recent used RB-35 and RS-35..........."

All you need now is to dump the RB-5's in favor of a pair or two of RS-35's surrounds (both side and rear surrounds...much preferable over direct radiators) and you will have a perfectly matched system as Klipsch recommends. They all have the exact same tweeter and the K-112X series Cerametallic® cone / cast polymer frame.

http://www.klipsch.com/products/disc...er-system.aspx

At this point I wouldn't worry too much about power. The Onkyo 606 puts out a solid 100 watts per channel or more as needed. These Klipsch speakers are extremely efficient at about 96dB's of sensitivity. Compare for example if you had a neighbor on one side who had a 5.1 set of bookshelf speakers with a 87dB rating and the neighbor on the other side with a set at a 90dB rating. These are fairly avarage and above average for bookshelf speakers. If you were driving your Klipsch with the Onkyo 606 they would, to achieve the same volume levels, have to be using amps with 800 watts per channel for the 87dB speakers and 400 watts per channel for the 90dB speakers! (Later down the road maybe you could consider a separate power amp with smooth highs to match the Klipsch)

Remember to set all the speakers to "small" in your speaker setup procedures and a sub crossover at 80Hz or so. Movie soundtracks can be rather bright so use the cinema compensation function or whatever Onkyo calls it to reduce the overemphasized highs.

Let us know how everything looks and sounds.

RR6

[Wits]

If you notice what I said in my post way above:

".........If you want a perfect match then it would be wise to look for the more recent used RB-35 and RS-35..........."

RR6

That's exactly why I snagged these when I saw they were available, RR6! I just happened to have the good fortune to find them factory refurbished instead of used.

I made the statement about money to illustrate that I was the ebay auction KING, baybee! Both times there was a speaker on the Klipsch Ebay store that I wanted I ninja-stealthed in and took it from the other bidders!

Unfortunately, I don't have enough money to get rid of my RB-5's and swap them out for surrounds. I have spent far far too much money as it is just getting to this point so I will have to be content with what I have.

And I'm not worried about power...it hasn't even crossed my mind since I made the decision to buy the Onkyo 606. The only thing left in my list of things to be concerned with is speaker cable and speaker stands. I'm very seriously considering just leaving the darned things sit on the floor.

Everyone can skip this part below--I'm just going to whine about how unlucky I've been during this process.

So far I've had:
1) Onkyo receiver arrived with huge hole in the box--had to be returned for replacement.
2) Center channel speaker arrived with big hole in the grill--had to be returned for replacement.
3) HDMI cables that I ordered Monday, December 8 at 4AM and were shipped via USPS Priority Mail on that same day have not arrived as of Saturday, December 13. So I have yet to even see what the picture looks like on my new plasma television.

I definitely resemble the song on the old television show Hee Haw.
"Gloom, despair, and agony on me. Deepest dark depression, excessive misery. If it weren't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all. Gloom, despair, and agony on me!"

Well, now that I've got that out of my system, I'll try to find something to do this weekend that doesn't involve watching television!

Oh, and by the way, I do know it's possible to hook things up and watch it without using an HDMI cable--but I'm stubborn and I don't want to turn it on until it is fully and properly connected.

[Wits]

Actually, I've reconsidered and decided that since it will be at least another 48 hours until I get my HDMI cables, it is a total waste of time for me to not be taking advantage of this time to use for the break-in period. It's too bad I didn't think of this earlier in the week...I could nearly have been over and done with the whole process! Ah well, hindsight is 20/20.

[Wits]

Well I just got the replacement in for the damaged RC-35 center channel speaker, and they upgraded me to an RC-62!! Apparently they didn't have any more of the RC-35's left in stock. I can't tell if this is a refurbished one or brand new, but either way that's quite an upgrade. Woohoo!