In The Heat of The Night

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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

What you mentioned in the stereo store is what happened at Barney's, I'm assuming that is still considered racial profiling. Then there's the opposite like the incident Sir T described in the restaurant. You can only hope at some point society would progress.

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The difference is some store security, police departments and TSA agents have consciously decided to racially profile. The men at the store did not even realize their own bias. Once it was mentioned to them and they thought about it they realized their own prejudice.

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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

What happened in the past is a disgrace but should not be used as an excuse for any minority today. No one today is/was a slave. As one speaker from the NAACP was saying minorities need to take advantage of education, take pride in themselves, get involved, vote, etc.

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If you know the history of Black folks in that past, they have done all of this, and still have the highest unemployment rates, lower pay, and still experience institutional racism. Only a person who has never experienced multi-generational racism would make this statement.

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Racial Profiling is real as in the recent example of Barney's who had to admit they were guilty of it, and, something to be upset about. Many here are upset by racial profiling of authorities who took the oath to protect and serve. This is also a disgrace, as well the link I posted above, and it shows society hasn't come as far as we thought. This recent killing here and the one just a week or so in NYC are prime example of authorities gone too far and brought things to the boiling point. Justice is supposed to be fair and balanced, now those in charge have to decide whether they'll step up to the plate and effect real change and hold violators of rights responsible. This type of distrust will be virtually impossible to erase.

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This comment is exactly why it is not enough to get an education, take pride in yourself, and get involved. When the racism is so profoundly deep and embedded in the prevailing culture, no matter what you do, it is not enough to get you equality. History has proven this over and over again.

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I mentioned above when I moved here from Atlanta it was like going back in time regarding race, it was interesting to hear a guest on MSMBC mention that St. Louis is still one of the most segregated cities in the country. Not sure how that bares out in Sir T's South as the villain theory. Although racism is every where.unfortunately, I just don't think we can stereotype one region of the country vs another.

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My perspective is not limited to the south. I have said many times the Midwest is just as bad as the south, and I personally could never live in either place. The very idea that I could achieve great success in my career, and still be looked at as a second class citizen based on the region I lived in is very unpalatable to me.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

Sir T, I'm not sure what it is you think I disagree with.

Certainly slavery AND subsequent racism are abhorrent. It is disgusting the poor white antebellum farmers and workers in the South embraced racism that, in reality, served primarily wealthy plantation owners. It is disgusting that Southern white racists were allowed to impose the 'Jim Crow' laws after Reconstruction. It is disgusting the men of learning and stature such as Woodrow Wilson were racists and introduce segregation is areas like the Federal civil service where it hadn't been before. It is disgusting the lightly veiled racism one hears directed at Barrack Obama. And it's disgusting to hear lightly veiled racism today from the likes of Tea Party supporters.

Blacks have a right to be angry. But anger is one thing, hate and slander of whites is another. If neutrality is the goal, tolerance -- from both sides -- is a step along the way.

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I must ask Feanor, why is it okay for whites to hate and slander Blacks and Latinos, but it is not okay for Blacks and Latino's(out of sheer anger and frustration) to feel the same way? Your comments while intellectually correct are completely devoid of the emotional impact of nearly 500 years of inequality, nearly 500 years of frustration, and nearly 500 years of being looked at as an animal or second class citizen(which still exist today). Racism in America is is a extremely long term problem in this country, and let's face it, it was built on it from day one. Blacks and Latino's have been more than patient in trying to achieve equality in this country. Each and every time some level of success has been achieved, the powers that be change the rules, and minorities are back to square one. You can only take this kind of treatment for so long, and then you rebel(see riots in Miami, Los Angeles, Cincinnati, New York, and so on).

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I would love to have my DNA tested, and having thinking of it for sometime. If you know organization that does this for a reasonable price, let me known. But note that I'm interest in a fine breakdown of male chromosome information; I'm reasonably certain that I am of 100% European descent, so what I would be looking for is a finer breakdown, e.g. Celtic vs. Scandinavian. It tends to cost good deal more to get the more detailed info.

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Feanor, unfortunately I don't know of an organization that does this test for a reasonable price. I got my done as a classroom experiment in a race relations class at USC.

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Speaking of minority anger, the minority today that needs to be a lot angrier is the poor -- whatever their race. I have an hunch that today the ongoing race issue tends to cloak for the even more widespread issue of poverty.

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Who is the poor in America? It is Blacks and Latino's and that is a fact.

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Actually a degree of majority anger is becoming apropos what with the weakening of the middle class, (of all races), in the USA and Western countries due to the increasing concentration of wealth AND political power in the hands of the <1%.

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We have seen this before during the depression. Anytime whites find themselves unemployed in wide numbers, they blame either Mexican immigration, or they tend to limit the financial possibilities of blacks via institutional racism. During the depression, one all black town in the south remained very prosperous(largely because they could not do business beyond their community) because the dollar in their community change hands WITHIN the community 36 times before going outside of the community. Whites became jealous of this success, and burn the town to the ground, and killed nearly all of its residents. While we are not killing people today in mass like back then, we are killing their spirit by economically limiting them.

Sir T's post shows what was edited by a mod from my original post, I wasn't notified of why my post was edited. The statements from NAACP & segregation were direct from televised programming and I don't see what I said being any different from other posts here on the topic.

1. Top story: The racially charged controversy over the Missouri shooting
St. Louis remains one of the most racially segregated metro areas in the U.S. "Residents, advocacy groups and onlookers far from St. Louis are focused on the details surrounding the fatal confrontation....But there's a much broader piece of context here that has to do with a legacy of racial segregation in U.S. cities, which has eroded more slowly in St. Louis than many other big metros. St. Louis remains among the most segregated metropolitan areas in the country. According to data from Brown University's US2010 Project, looking at the 50 metropolitan areas with the largest black populations as of 2010, St. Louis ranks as the 9th most segregated." Emily Badger in The Washington Post.

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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Sir T's post shows what was edited by a mod from my original post, I wasn't notified of why my post was edited. The statements from NAACP & segregation were direct from televised programming and I don't see what I said being any different from other posts here on the topic.

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None of your posts have been edited. What Sir T quoted I can read in your post. There is no trace of an edit.

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

I must ask Feanor, why is it okay for whites to hate and slander Blacks and Latinos, but it is not okay for Blacks and Latino's(out of sheer anger and frustration) to feel the same way? Your comments while intellectually correct are completely devoid of the emotional impact of nearly 500 years of inequality, nearly 500 years of frustration, and nearly 500 years of being looked at as an animal or second class citizen(which still exist today). Racism in America is is a extremely long term problem in this country, and let's face it, it was built on it from day one. Blacks and Latino's have been more than patient in trying to achieve equality in this country. Each and every time some level of success has been achieved, the powers that be change the rules, and minorities are back to square one. You can only take this kind of treatment for so long, and then you rebel (see riots in Miami, Los Angeles, Cincinnati, New York, and so on).

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Sir T, where did I ever say it is OK for whites to hate & slander Blacks and Latinos? Never. Please make no such insinuation.

However, I am saying is that reciprocal Black/Latino/Asian racism isn't acceptable either. The racial situation has been and will be for quite some time a problem in the USA and elsewhere. BUT the solution will NOT include "minorities" responding in kind to "majority" racism.

Where is the race "neutrality" you want? Do you expect that first white need to be "neutral" and only then that Blacks and Latinos will need to be "neutral"? It just can't work that way.

So sorry if it sounds unemotional but Yes, Blacks and Latinos are going to have to keep on being patient. Patience may certainly include protests but not reciprocal racism. Most of all "patience" will include Blacks & Latinos getting out a voting for candidates who cleary espouse their cause.

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

Who is the poor in America? It is Blacks and Latino's and that is a fact.

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The statistics show that in absolute numbers there are actually more poor whites than poor Blacks or Latinos; (not surprising since they are still the "majority"). Are there higher proportions of Blacks and of Latinos in poverty higher? Yes, not doubt.

So -- as an intellectual exercise, Sir T -- would the poverty situation be made better by equalizing the proportions in poverty? Should this be brought about by decreasing only the numbers of Blacks and Latino poor OR by increasing the number of poor white people? OR would it actually be better to reduce poverty overall? (Consider that the most egregious white racism is among the poorest and least educated whites.)

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

We have seen this before during the depression. Anytime whites find themselves unemployed in wide numbers, they blame either Mexican immigration, or they tend to limit the financial possibilities of blacks via institutional racism. During the depression, one all black town in the south remained very prosperous(largely because they could not do business beyond their community) because the dollar in their community change hands WITHIN the community 36 times before going outside of the community. Whites became jealous of this success, and burn the town to the ground, and killed nearly all of its residents. While we are not killing people today in mass like back then, we are killing their spirit by economically limiting them.

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Well I would say it's progress that massing killings aren't happening today.

As for US illegal immigration today, I say that it reflects a deep hypocrisy in American society and the American economy. (1) Many resent the illegal incursion of some many of a foreign language and culture who (seem) to threaten their jobs and way of life in general. They resent that they are powerless to prevent this. (2) There is a significant portion of businessmen and farmers who want the cheapest possible labor; they are quite content that their workers remain undocumented and therefore underpaid and not subject to regular employee protections.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

Sir T, where did I ever say it is OK for whites to hate & slander Blacks and Latinos? Never. Please make no such insinuation.

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Whites don't need your OK, they have been hating and slandering blacks for nearly 500 years, and Latino's for nearly 300 years.

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However, I am saying is that reciprocal Black/Latino/Asian racism isn't acceptable either. The racial situation has been and will be for quite some time a problem in the USA and elsewhere. BUT the solution will NOT include "minorities" responding in kind to "majority" racism.

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What do you suggest minorities do stand there and just take it? Do we just unemotionally accept that some whites won't just push you away from the table, but may not allow you there in the first place? Blacks have been down this road already. I don't know any race or culture that has not hated their oppressor.

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Where is the race "neutrality" you want? Do you expect that first white need to be "neutral" and only then that Blacks and Latinos will need to be "neutral"? It just can't work that way.

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Yes I do, and it can work that way if whites allowed it. They created this problem, made it worse and worse over the centuries, and it is up to them to make the first step in cleaning it up. The problem is they won't make that step, because it would mean they would have to give up something. Whites are in no mood to give up anything to minorities, and you and I both know this.

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So sorry if it sounds unemotional but Yes, Blacks and Latinos are going to have to keep on being patient. Patience may certainly include protests but not reciprocal racism. Most of all "patience" will include Blacks & Latinos getting out a voting for candidates who cleary espouse their cause.

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This is just so naive it makes my head hurt. (Putting myself in the place of Blacks). How in the hell can you expect me to not hate the people that brought me here, changed my name, sold me and separated me from my family over and over again, call me ugly, won't let me practice my culture, hang me arbitrarily, call me 3/5 of a human, spit on me, let loose dogs on me and fire water cannons on me(when I do protest), deny me the right to vote, and when I could vote, would never let a candidate that support my cause see the light of day, discriminate against me with jobs, the court system, the and school system, and not to mention their killing young people who are not even armed(which sends a message your life is not worth anything)? Do you really expect me not to hate the people who would do this to me? Really???

Here is why I think you are missing the mark on this. Intellectually you are spot on. However the major component of this is not intellectual(whites KNOW racism is wrong), it is deeply emotional, and that is what you are missing here. The major component here is the emotional and psychological impact, not the intellectual. Most everything Whites have done to Blacks, Indians, Asians, and Latino's is to emotionally crippled them, keep them divided and fighting amongst each other(divide and conquer anyone), and tell them the need to be governed by Whites because they are incapable of governing themselves. It is the psychological warfare that does the most damage, and that is what is missing from your intellectual perspective.

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The statistics show that in absolute numbers there are actually more poor whites than poor Blacks or Latinos; (not surprising since they are still the "majority"). Are there higher proportions of Blacks and of Latinos in poverty higher? Yes, not doubt.

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So why is this? It is because whites have institutionally shut Blacks and Latino's out of the game. A poor white man can pull himself up by his bootstraps. He is white. Blacks and Latino's cannot pull themselves up by their bootstraps, because they don't have any boots. This is the way some whites want it, and why it has been this way for centuries.

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So -- as an intellectual exercise, Sir T -- would the poverty situation be made better by equalizing the proportions in poverty? Should this be brought about by decreasing only the numbers of Blacks and Latino poor OR by increasing the number of poor white people? OR would it actually be better to reduce poverty overall? (Consider that the most egregious white racism is among the poorest and least educated whites.)

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Feanor, poverty overall is another issue altogether with. Poverty didn't lead to racism, racism led to poverty. No white person has been pushed into poverty because of their skin color....minorities have. This is a smoke screen to me.

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Well I would say it's progress that massing killings aren't happening today.

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Progress? Perhaps. Or just a change in tactics. Mass killings were tried already, and they failed get the desired impact(keep folks in their place). Now there is a new game in town. Kill off young black males, or put them in jail which kills off their future economic opportunities. Make Blacks and Latino's invisible in the public eye. Fill all magazines with white faces, and tell minorities they are too ugly to sell magazines. Don't show 1,000 young Black males graduating from college on television, and don't report it. Throw out any resume that has a known Black name, they would not fit into our office culture. If a candidate shows up with dreadlocks, don't hire them; if does not fit into our office culture. Black women, no natural hair, it does not fit in with our office culture. These kinds of things emotionally break you down, and that is sorely missing out of your points. Today's racism is not in your face, it is a subtle emotional and psychological warfare designed to slowly break you down. It will if you let it.

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As for US illegal immigration today, I say that it reflects a deep hypocrisy in American society and the American economy. (1) Many resent the illegal incursion of some many of a foreign language and culture who (seem) to threaten their jobs and way of life in general. They resent that they are powerless to prevent this. (2) There is a significant portion of businessmen and farmers who want the cheapest possible labor; they are quite content that their workers remain undocumented and therefore underpaid and not subject to regular employee protections.

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I absolutely agree with you here! Use the cheap labor as long as you need them, and send them home when you don't. No benefits, and no chance to stay and obtain citizenship, and no chance for a better life.

On the flip side of the coin, many Mexicans would LOVE to come here and work for six months LEGALLY, and go home for six months. Many more don't want to live here because of the racism, but have no work or employment future at home. The Mexican government loves this, because so many send money back home to Mexico, and the Mexican government does not have to use any resources to care for the segment of the population.

On this subject, hypocrisy is everywhere.

(Oh, boy ... here we go ...)

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

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Originally Posted by Feanor

Where is the race "neutrality" you want? Do you expect that first white need to be "neutral" and only then that Blacks and Latinos will need to be "neutral"? It just can't work that way.

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Yes I do, and it can work that way if whites allowed it. They created this problem, made it worse and worse over the centuries, and it is up to them to make the first step in cleaning it up. The problem is they won't make that step, because it would mean they would have to give up something. Whites are in no mood to give up anything to minorities, and you and I both know this.

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If you believe that Black/Latino/whatever racism, (as opposed to mere anger, resentment), is an acceptable response to white racism, then racism is certainly here for the long haul.

Actually it's damned hypocritical on your part to call for "neutrality" from whites if you don't see the the need for reciprocal neutrality from Blacks, et al., in real-time. And it tends to make you look like racist around here.

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

Here is why I think you are missing the mark on this. Intellectually you are spot on. However the major component of this is not intellectual (whites KNOW racism is wrong), it is deeply emotional, and that is what you are missing here. The major component here is the emotional and psychological impact, not the intellectual. Most everything Whites have done to Blacks, Indians, Asians, and Latino's is to emotionally crippled them, keep them divided and fighting amongst each other (divide and conquer anyone), and tell them the need to be governed by Whites because they are incapable of governing themselves. It is the psychological warfare that does the most damage, and that is what is missing from your intellectual perspective.

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Yes, true, damned true, at least historically. White racism arose during the amazingly rapid rise of Europe from a backwater in the 14th century to world dominance by the mid 19th century. Does the is make white racism unique, NO, other than its relatively recent origin and world span. Racism has always existed and still exists almost everywhere among people of all races.

The worldwide scourge of racism ISN'T going to be solve by whites alone giving it up. If you believe this you are wrong and in grave danger of being labelled a racist yourself.

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

Feanor, poverty overall is another issue altogether with. Poverty didn't lead to racism, racism led to poverty. No white person has been pushed into poverty because of their skin color....minorities have. This is a smoke screen to me.

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Remove the fear & envy by alleviating poverty and racism looses most of its raison d'être. You've offered the explanation yourself: fear of loss of economic security is probably most common source of racism today among whites (and various others). But, (and apparently you agree), the second most common cause is envy by those who have less of those who have more.

Maybe I'm outa line here, but it seems me you, as a Latino, (black godmother, etc.), seem a bit of a whiner for a member of the 1%'er. (While my income is below the national median.)

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

On this subject, hypocrisy is everywhere.

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So it seems.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

(Oh, boy ... here we go ...)

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Yep, here we go.

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If you believe that Black/Latino/whatever racism, (as opposed to mere anger, resentment), is an acceptable response to white racism, then racism is certainly here for the long haul.

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This is not why it is here for the long haul. It is here for the long haul because whites cannot plainly see they are doing anything wrong, or that anything is wrong institutionally. How does one parse racism from anger and resentment? The response to racism IS anger and resentment.

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Actually it's damned hypocritical on your part to call for "neutrality" from whites if you don't see the the need for reciprocal neutrality from Blacks, et al., in real-time. And it tends to make you look like racist around here.

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Can you explain to me why the person with the boot on the neck has to proclaim neutrality when they didn't start this in the first place, and have no power to end it(or it would have been done already)? Blacks don't control any power in America. They are not oppressing whites, limiting their economic chances, calling whites ugly and unmarketable, or telling whites where they can live, or redlining them because they don't want to live next to them. And please Feanor, put your racist card back in your wallet. Anyone who actually knows me know that it is not possible for me to be racist against whites. I am part white.

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Yes, true, damned true, at least historically. White racism arose during the amazingly rapid rise of Europe from a backwater in the 14th century to world dominance by the mid 19th century. Does the is make white racism unique, NO, other than its relatively recent origin and world span. Racism has always existed and still exists almost everywhere among people of all races.

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No other race in history has enslaved a group of people based on race ALONE. It was always slavery as the spoils of war. This racism is unique in that is was born out of slavery, and even after slavery officially ended blacks were still slaves because of lack of economic oportunities. If I only have access to the lowest paying jobs, then I am still in slavery despite any decree.

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The worldwide scourge of racism ISN'T going to be solve by whites alone giving it up. If you believe this you are wrong and in grave danger of being labelled a racist yourself.

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This BS is just plain nonsense. What the hell can Blacks and Latino's do to whites? Not one damn thing except to say I don't like you because of how you have treated me and mine. What does a minorities do to proclaim neutrality, allow whites to continue kicking their asses? Give me a freakin break here. The people with all of the power have to give up some of that power PERIOD. The people with no power have nothing to give here.

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Remove the fear & envy by alleviating poverty and racism looses most of its raison d'être. You've offered the explanation yourself: fear of loss of economic security is probably most common source of racism today among whites (and various others). But, (and apparently you agree), the second most common cause is envy by those who have less of those who have more.

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It is not envy, because blacks had achieved a high level of success in the history of this country(only to have it taken away, and the folks that achieved it killed

Greenwood, Tulsa, Oklahoma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Maybe I'm outa line here, but it seems me you, as a Latino, (black godmother, etc.), seem a bit of a whiner for a member of the 1%'er. (While my income is below the national median.)

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This was a cold low blow that clearly outlines that you as a white male do not like me as a minority working my ass off and being rewarded for my work. You are out of line, and the words you chose are very revealing. Don't be a hater, it is very unattractive. And please leave the "green" suit in the closet.

I am going to throw this out there and I may be sorry I did. When we are talking about prejudice as prejudging a group of individuals and hate based on that prejudging as a basis of racism is not the victim of the hate the more knowledgeable on the subject? Reading about something is not the same as experiencing a thing.

I could no more speak about what it must be like to go to war having never been a soldier regardless of how much I read.

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

I am going to throw this out there and I may be sorry I did. When we are talking about prejudice as prejudging a group of individuals and hate based on that prejudging as a basis of racism is not the victim of the hate the more knowledgeable on the subject? Reading about something is not the same as experiencing a thing.

I could no more speak about what it must be like to go to war having never been a soldier regardless of how much I read.

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JM, this is a good point. Anyone that just plain "intellectualize" racism totally misses the point. Anyone who has never heard the words "I don't want to work with you because nobody will hire a Latino". Anyone who has never heard the words "Sorry, we don't serve half breeds" will never understanding how demeaning it is.

I am going to tell you why I thought Feanor's last statement to me was ignorant as hell. Oprah Winfrey has made FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR more money than I have, but a store salesperson would not even show her a bag.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/201...ype=blogs&_r=0

The amount of money you make does not make a bit if difference when the prevailing thought is because of your color, you can't afford it.

On my first studio job, I was assigned to a mixing room, but nobody in the all white post production department would work with me. Why, because they said that nobody would hire a latino for a mix job, and partnering with me would hurt their income. So I went on alone doing everything myself(when it usually requires three people). At the end of the year it turns out that my mixing stage made far more money than the next closest mix team. Why? Because I could mix my ass off, and do it at or under budget.

Or let's talk about the when I auditioned for Color Guard Captain in my freshman year of high school. Some white students found it objectionable that a minority would try for this leadership position, and actually put out a petition to prevent me from even auditioning. When I asked why, some folks responded that we have never had a minority as a captain, and they didn't think I could do the job(it was a hard job). Thanks to the Band Director I was given a chance(he was Jewish). Everyone on the 10 man panel gave my audition a perfect 10 across in every area the audition covered, and still students protested. I got the job, and for the next four years our Guard completely dominated the competition. So much for I cannot handle the job. However, as a result of getting that job, I had my locker blown up by a cherry bomb four times, destroying my books(I had to replace them, and it was not cheap) and everything else in the locker. My parents had the money to pay my tuition every year I attended that exclusive school, so money was not the issue. The issue was the students didn't want minorities attending there. If they did, they wanted them to "stay in their place"(whatever the hell that means).

Or how about the time the Cavaliers went to Mississippi for DCI national championships. The entire 128 member corps walked out of three restaurants during championship week because they would not serve the four black guys, and the three latino's that were in the guard. I was the one that had a credit card given to me(so I had the money to buy breakfast, lunch, and dinner at all three of these restaurants), and yet they would not serve me. The amount of money you have in your pockets(or on plastic) does not matter if the racist doesn't think you were worthy to be served.

Throughout my entire life I kept being told no you can't do it, or no you can't have it because of my skin color. So if anyone thinks that just because you are in the 1% that you should not complain about racism, they are dead wrong. Just ask Oprah about that.

In spite of the fact that Magic Johnson is also in the 1%, Donald Sterling had no problem insulting him, and telling his ho for a girlfriend not to bring people like that(Blacks) to HIS games. When you think so low of minorities, money is a non-issue.

This is why I thought Feanor's stupid comment was pretty damn insulting. He just does not seem to get it, and that is because he has never been touched by it. Stand in my shoes for a week, and see if you change your mind about that statement.

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

Whites don't need your OK, they have been hating and slandering blacks for nearly 500 years, and Latino's for nearly 300 years.

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I agree that whites should take alot of blame as what is happening, but on the same note blacks and latinos are not so blameless and innocent :)

What about all the shootings, robbery and violence that is happening in blacks and latino community, or emanating from those communities?

I live in urban area and a night does not go by without hearing somebody did drive by shooting, or shoot up a person or place in east part of town. Or if there is a robbery (either a person, bank or business) in town, 4 out of 5 times description is given as minority.

What I mean is we are all in this toghether. If we want to improve things, we have to start with ourselves (that not only apply here, but all over the world) :)

These are my final comments on the subject ...

First of all: BLACK RACISM IS NOT VALID: no racism is valid.

It is one thing to explain a phenomenon, it is another thing to excuse, justify or validate it. Black racism is certainly explainable -- emotionally or intellectually -- on the basis of injustices done to Blacks. However Black racism is invalid and counter-effectual for rationally obvious reasons; (sorry if emotions get the way):

• It reinforces still existing white racism
• Like hatred in general, it is psychologically damaging to the person doing the hating
• (Least importantly), it occasionally will harm a white person who him/herself might or might not be racist.

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

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Originally Posted by Feanor

If you believe that Black/Latino/whatever racism, (as opposed to mere anger, resentment), is an acceptable response to white racism, then racism is certainly here for the long haul.

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This is not why it is here for the long haul. It is here for the long haul because whites cannot plainly see they are doing anything wrong, or that anything is wrong institutionally. How does one parse racism from anger and resentment? The response to racism IS anger and resentment.

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{emphasis added}

This is a slander, (lie). Plenty of whites CAN plainly see that they, (i.e. other whites), are still doing wrong. In the recent past white politicians primarily have been responsible for reducing the "institutional"issues: Blacks don't have to sit at the back of the bus, aren't refused seats at lunch counters, have to drink from separate water fountains, (I can still remember why shock when I observed this for the first time when I visited Florida circa 1959). it is everywhere against the law to discriminate for jobs or housing on the basis of race. Blacks aren't denied entry to the colleges or universities, (the contrary if you take affirmative action into account). A Black is POTUS, (notwithstanding that he's actually mixed race and not an Black American strictly speaking).

If you reject that there has been enormous progress against discrimination and racism, then you're being either disingenuous or dishonest with yourself.

I used the phase earlier, "functional racism", asserting that it is greatly reduced. But, "Ah! Bill", you say, "in their hearts whites still hate Blacks and Latinos". To which I respond, "Yeah, some still do, but at least you got to eat lunch with your colleagues".

I repeat: this is my last on the subject.

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Originally Posted by Smokey

I agree that whites should take alot of blame as what is happening, but on the same note blacks and latinos are not so blameless and innocent :)

What about all the shootings, robbery and violence that is happening in blacks and latino community, or emanating from those communities?

I live in urban area and a night does not go by without hearing somebody did drive by shooting, or shoot up a person or place in east part of town. Or if there is a robbery (either a person, bank or business) in town, 4 out of 5 times description is given as minority.

What I mean is we are all in this toghether. If we want to improve things, we have to start with ourselves (that not only apply here, but all over the world) :)

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When people are denied jobs based on the color of their skin or ethnic background poverty breeds a lack of hope. I think if you were hungry enough you might steal a loaf of bread. If there are no jobs available to you but you could live very well selling drugs you might be tempted. I think racism breeds poverty and poverty increases crime.

Drugs are a great way to numb yourself from a bad life situation. Sadly drugs become either mentally or physically addicting. Living in poverty with no hope and now addicted to drugs you might be capable of doing anything for your next fix. You deal drugs to supply your habit and if someone is cutting into your business you kill them. Poverty becomes in some instances an endless cycle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feanor

These are my final comments on the subject ...

First of all: BLACK RACISM IS NOT VALID: no racism is valid.

It is one thing to explain a phenomenon, it is another thing to excuse, justify or validate it. Black racism is certainly explainable -- emotionally or intellectually -- on the basis of injustices done to Blacks. However Black racism is invalid and counter-effectual for rationally obvious reasons; (sorry if emotions get the way):

• It reinforces still existing white racism
• Like hatred in general, it is psychologically damaging to the person doing the hating
• (Least importantly), it occasionally will harm a white person who him/herself might or might not be racist.

{emphasis added}

This is a slander, (lie). Plenty of whites CAN plainly see that they, (i.e. other whites), are still doing wrong. In the recent past white politicians primarily have been responsible for reducing the "institutional"issues: Blacks don't have to sit at the back of the bus, aren't refused seats at lunch counters, have to drink from separate water fountains, (I can still remember why shock when I observed this for the first time when I visited Florida circa 1959). it is everywhere against the law to discriminate for jobs or housing on the basis of race. Blacks aren't denied entry to the colleges or universities, (the contrary if you take affirmative action into account). A Black is POTUS, (notwithstanding that he's actually mixed race and not an Black American strictly speaking).

If you reject that there has been enormous progress against discrimination and racism, then you're being either disingenuous or dishonest with yourself.

I used the phase earlier, "functional racism", asserting that it is greatly reduced. But, "Ah! Bill", you say, "in their hearts whites still hate Blacks and Latinos". To which I respond, "Yeah, some still do, but at least you got to eat lunch with your colleagues".

I repeat: this is my last on the subject.

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Remember when you speak of politicians reducing institutionalized racism it is important to remember that not all politicians wanted those laws enacted. It has mostly been the Democrats that have fought for social change. Just because a law changes does not mean men's hearts change.

In some ways these laws made things better superficially but we never did resolve the race issues. Seeing the activities of the Tea party and their new voice of racism saddens me. A bunch of scared white folks who got theirs and do not want women and minorities to become equals. Damn and I thought things were getting better. People did not improve because of a change of heart but due to a change in law.

Being pasty white I never experienced racism but being gay I have dealt with a lot of prejudice. As a white man I could get the job but later when they figured out I was gay I lost the job. Going to a predominately white catholic school I was the minority and was treated as such. I was taunted and tormented for being something I had not even completely figured out for myself.

Back in the days when they could ask questions such as are you married were often the turning point of an interview. All would be going well and the employer was interested when that question would be asked. Being in my mid 20's to 30's and not being married the whole tone of the interview would change and end abruptly.

I never had a cross burned in my yard but the phone would ring at night with death threats. I might be walking to work when a car would pull up and begin shouting f@g and c@cksucker which then might elicit interesting questions from people I was walking past on the sidewalk. If I did go downtown to the one gay bar which became gay after the older regulars left about 10 PM I knew it would take all my skills to get home. Pick up trucks of rednecks would show up at closing time to harass. Boy I could drive those back alleys and make turns that the trucks could not. Once home I would hide my car in case the pursuit would continue.

I know some of you will not like this post based on reactions to other posts I have made but believe me I know what being prejudged is about. I know how it kills your will to succeed because it is just a matter of time before the rug gets pulled out anyway.

This does not even cover prejudice in one's family. Coming out can be a whole nightmare on it's own.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

Remember when you speak of politicians reducing institutionalized racism it is important to remember that not all politicians wanted those laws enacted. It has mostly been the Democrats that have fought for social change. Just because a law changes does not mean men's hearts change.

In some ways these laws made things better superficially but we never did resolve the race issues. Seeing the activities of the Tea party and their new voice of racism saddens me. A bunch of scared white folks who got theirs and do not want women and minorities to become equals. Damn and I thought things were getting better. People did not improve because of a change of heart but due to a change in law.

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JM, I hope nothing I said caused Sir Terrence to misconstrue my meaning, nor that I have misconstrued his.

In no way do I mean to minimize White racism that still exists. I did point out that effective discrimination is much reduced, but I didn't mean to imply that the nation has gone far enough.

What I construed from Sir T's comments was that Black or Latino racism, (generalized hatred of, or discrimination towards, Whites), was NOT ONLY explainable/understandable BUT ALSO justified/valid. This I reject on the very practical grounds that it is not only deplorable in itself but also COUNTER-EFFECTIVE in terms of reducing residual White racism.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

Being pasty white I never experienced racism but being gay I have dealt with a lot of prejudice. As a white man I could get the job but later when they figured out I was gay I lost the job. Going to a predominately white catholic school I was the minority and was treated as such. I was taunted and tormented for being something I had not even completely figured out for myself.

Back in the days when they could ask questions such as are you married were often the turning point of an interview. All would be going well and the employer was interested when that question would be asked. Being in my mid 20's to 30's and not being married the whole tone of the interview would change and end abruptly.

I never had a cross burned in my yard but the phone would ring at night with death threats. I might be walking to work when a car would pull up and begin shouting f@g and c@cksucker which then might elicit interesting questions from people I was walking past on the sidewalk. If I did go downtown to the one gay bar which became gay after the older regulars left about 10 PM I knew it would take all my skills to get home. Pick up trucks of rednecks would show up at closing time to harass. Boy I could drive those back alleys and make turns that the trucks could not. Once home I would hide my car in case the pursuit would continue.

I know some of you will not like this post based on reactions to other posts I have made but believe me I know what being prejudged is about. I know how it kills your will to succeed because it is just a matter of time before the rug gets pulled out anyway.

This does not even cover prejudice in one's family. Coming out can be a whole nightmare on it's own.

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All deplorable, JM, and I'd like to believe these things wouldn't happen in the community where I lofe, (though I suppose some do from time to time).

But my question is, Do you hate all 'straight' people in general as a result?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feanor

All deplorable, JM, and I'd like to believe these things wouldn't happen in the community where I lofe, (though I suppose some do from time to time).

But my question is, Do you hate all 'straight' people in general as a result?

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No but I am still very guarded. I do not trust straight people at first meeting. I recently started a new job and my levels of anxiety are high. Sure there are some I hate who went out of their way to do me harm. Having been a victim of a hate crime where the unthinkable happened I do wish for the death of my violator.

If you have not lived under the oppression of prejudice it is tough to understand. It can be as small as an uncle who would buy everyone a Christmas present but you. It could be a physical attack at work but since you have been told any more gay issues and you would be terminated you take the attacks in stride. After all you made the mistake of reporting the death threats that were drawn on the wall of the locker room. Yes I am leery.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

When people are denied jobs based on the color of their skin or ethnic background poverty breeds a lack of hope. I think if you were hungry enough you might steal a loaf of bread. If there are no jobs available to you but you could live very well selling drugs you might be tempted. I think racism breeds poverty and poverty increases crime.

Drugs are a great way to numb yourself from a bad life situation. Sadly drugs become either mentally or physically addicting. Living in poverty with no hope and now addicted to drugs you might be capable of doing anything for your next fix. You deal drugs to supply your habit and if someone is cutting into your business you kill them. Poverty becomes in some instances an endless cycle.

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I agree with your statement that racism breed poverty, and poverty breed crime. And if you include drugs in the mix, we will have an expolsive mix.

I also believe that alot of crimes happening is also due to a person upbringing (that is true for every race). If there is no father figure or strict authority in the house, the child have more tendecy to stray than the one that have a butt kicking authority waiting for them at house.

Sorry to say that alot of crime commited by minorities fit former above scenario than latter family scenario.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feanor

These are my final comments on the subject ...

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Thank goodness, because on this subject, you can't even buy a clue.

First of all: BLACK RACISM IS NOT VALID: no racism is valid.

Quote:

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It is one thing to explain a phenomenon, it is another thing to excuse, justify or validate it. Black racism is certainly explainable -- emotionally or intellectually -- on the basis of injustices done to Blacks. However Black racism is invalid and counter-effectual for rationally obvious reasons; (sorry if emotions get the way):

• It reinforces still existing white racism
• Like hatred in general, it is psychologically damaging to the person doing the hating
• (Least importantly), it occasionally will harm a white person who him/herself might or might not be racist.

---

Oh please, my boots stink and are nearly covered with.......your crap. Whites have never needed blacks to do anything for them to dislike them. Whites think blacks are inferior in every way to whites, and based on that - should stay in their place. That is the prevailing thought process since slavery.

Quote:

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{emphasis added}

This is a slander, (lie). Plenty of whites CAN plainly see that they, (i.e. other whites), are still doing wrong.

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Then instead of sitting on their hands with their mouths closed, why don't they do or say something? I tell you why they don't. Even if whites have no issues with blacks, they do not want to give up the power and privilege of being the so called "boss" of this country. So you can call "slander" all you want, but that is just a smokescreen that can easily fanned away.

Quote:

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In the recent past white politicians primarily have been responsible for reducing the "institutional"issues: Blacks don't have to sit at the back of the bus, aren't refused seats at lunch counters, have to drink from separate water fountains, (I can still remember why shock when I observed this for the first time when I visited Florida circa 1959). it is everywhere against the law to discriminate for jobs or housing on the basis of race. Blacks aren't denied entry to the colleges or universities, (the contrary if you take affirmative action into account). A Black is POTUS, (notwithstanding that he's actually mixed race and not an Black American strictly speaking).

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Have you been hiding under a rock since the civil rights bill has been signed? Racism does not have to be back of the bus, or lunch counter. That is overt racism that is roundly frowned upon. Today it is more insidious and subtle. If I see a resume with the name Tasha Williams, or Kenisha Jones, they toss the resume in the trash, no matter who qualified they are. 20/20 pointed this out YEARS ago. Harassing and jailing the primary money maker and head of the household(which is called economic warfare) is the new racism. Today it is so institutional and deeply rooted in subtleties, that is skips the radar of most whites - who now thing we are post racial(are you kidding?). You obviously have not been keeping up, but Affirmative Action has been slowly eroding away for the last decade. No longer can you use race to weight admission. You can't do it in California, Michigan, Texas, and any other public educational institution. So you think because it is against the law to discriminate in jobs and housing that they don't do it? That is insanely ignorant of you. You ever heard of Donald Sterling?

The Devastating Impact Of Housing Discrimination Perpetrated By People Like Donald Sterling | ThinkProgress

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/bu...inds.html?_r=0

Feanor, it might help if you pull your head out of the sand.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/06/ed...ata-shows.html

Laws don't change minds. Sorry Feanor.

Quote:

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If you reject that there has been enormous progress against discrimination and racism, then you're being either disingenuous or dishonest with yourself.

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If you accept there has been ENORMOUS progress against racism, then you have been living under a rock WITH your head buried in the sand. It has not progressed all that much, but it has certainly changed. It is no longer overt, it is much more covert. The laws have changed, but people minds have not.

Quote:

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I used the phase earlier, "functional racism", asserting that it is greatly reduced. But, "Ah! Bill", you say, "in their hearts whites still hate Blacks and Latinos". To which I respond, "Yeah, some still do, but at least you got to eat lunch with your colleagues".

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So because I get to eat lunch with my colleagues somehow that makes life better for me? It does not, especially when at that lunch the waiter didn't really WANT to serve me. What a stupid statement to make.

Quote:

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I repeat: this is my last on the subject.

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Before you go, can you send me your address. I want to send you a check so you can buy a clue......from anywhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feanor

JM, I hope nothing I said caused Sir Terrence to misconstrue my meaning, nor that I have misconstrued his.

In no way do I mean to minimize White racism that still exists. I did point out that effective discrimination is much reduced, but I didn't mean to imply that the nation has gone far enough.

What I construed from Sir T's comments was that Black or Latino racism, (generalized hatred of, or discrimination towards, Whites), was NOT ONLY explainable/understandable BUT ALSO justified/valid. This I reject on the very practical grounds that it is not only deplorable in itself but also COUNTER-EFFECTIVE in terms of reducing residual White racism.

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There is a very thin line between hatred of whites, and profound anger with them.

Racism

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

In my entire lifetime, I have never heard Blacks or Latino's say their race was superior to whites. They say it is EQUAL, but never said it is better. It seems you do not have a very good grasp of what racism actually means, or you would not make such asinine statements. Blacks and Latino's don't necessarily hate whites, but they sure are mad as hell about how they have been treated by them. They should be.

Reducing racism cannot come from anywhere else except from the white community. They control the power structure of this country, and they essentially make its rules. There is nothing a black or Latino can say to a white person that changes their biased perspective. There is nothing blacks and latinos can DO to change that biased perspective either. What you are attempting is to try and be fair, and that is hard to do when things are so out of balance. In order for equality to exist, whites MUST give up seats at the table. Unfortunately they are not willing to do that, hence why racism is as prominent today as it way yesterday(albeit quite different).

(Fine, make a liar out of me ... )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

There is a very thin line between hatred of whites, and profound anger with them.

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However, the thin line should be observed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

Racism

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

In my entire lifetime, I have never heard Blacks or Latino's say their race was superior to whites. They say it is EQUAL, but never said it is better. It seems you do not have a very good grasp of what racism actually means, or you would not make such asinine statements. Blacks and Latino's don't necessarily hate whites, but they sure are mad as hell about how they have been treated by them. They should be.

Reducing racism cannot come from anywhere else except from the white community. They control the power structure of this country, and they essentially make its rules. There is nothing a black or Latino can say to a white person that changes their biased perspective. There is nothing blacks and latinos can DO to change that biased perspective either. What you are attempting is to try and be fair, and that is hard to do when things are so out of balance. In order for equality to exist, whites MUST give up seats at the table. Unfortunately they are not willing to do that, hence why racism is as prominent today as it way yesterday(albeit quite different).

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The above definition seems to say that to be racism, prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism must be based on a sense of one's racial superiority. Why necessarily on a sense of superiority? This implies that prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism are acceptable otherwise. Ah! But this seems to be your whole point: tit-for-tat prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism is OK. :thumbsup: Well I don't agree: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism are not acceptable under any circumstance.

You must have lead a sheltered live if you've never heard a Black or Latino claim racial superiority; even I have hear the odd Black say that occasionally.

The days of affirmative action are coming to an end. Minorities must EARN their seats at the table: fortunately a good many have done so already and more are doing so all the time.

Even if Blacks and Latinos could do nothing to reduce white's bias, for sure they can do a lot to REINFOCE white bias.

Quit while your behind, Sir T; (I'll bet you won't because you never, ever concede that you're wrong). Everything you say tends to show that you are the racist around here.

Further Black racism, this from Wiki based on Federal government statistics, HERE ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Racially motivated hate crime

The federal government publishes a list annually of Hate Crime Statistics, 2009. Also published by the federal government is the Known Offender's Race by Bias Motivation, 2009. According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Uniform Crime Report database, in 2010 58% of hate crime offenders were Latino or white, 18% of offenders were black, 8.9% were of individuals of multiple races and 1% of offenders were Native Americans. The report also reveals that 48% of all hate crime offenders were motivated by the victim's race, while 18% were based on the victim's religion, and another 18% were based on the victim's sexual orientation. The report states that among hate crime offenses motivated by race, 70% were composed of anti-black bias, while 17.7% were of anti-white bias, and 5% were of anti-Asian or Pacific Islander bias.

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As we see from this, Blacks are responsible for their share of racially motivated hate crimes.

Will Sir T will argue that if its Black/Latino on White then the stats are bogus because Black/Latino on White can't be racist?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feanor

Further Black racism, this from Wiki based on Federal government statistics, HERE ...



As we see from this, Blacks are responsible for their share of racially motivated hate crimes.

Will Sir T will argue that if its Black/Latino on White then the stats are bogus because Black/Latino on White can't be racist?

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I find it odd that whites and Latinos are added in together. I also find it odd if you underlined the 18% of black hate crimes. I would have to say whites commit the higher level of hate crimes. I know as a part of the 18% victims of hate crimes based on sexuality my attacker was white. I have never heard of a straight white man dragged down a country road chained to the back of a pickup truck.

So since this thread started, I have seen the movie running 8 more times at least on the same channel. Have to start wondering who runs the station.

After seeing the bolded definition of Racism, I can say I am not a Racist. But I do harbor negative feelings for certain groups of people who spend all their energy perpetuating what they complain about.

Just look at Furgeson. I hate trigger happy police, but it's nothing new. Gil Scott Heron sang about it in B Movie back in the 70s. But what are the facts now after a young man was shot to death in a violent way.

2 weeks of Violence, Destruction, Looting, and more Violence all in protest of what? Yeah, Violence. If you continue to act like animals, you continue to get seen as and treated like animals. Maybe all that energy could be used to get themselves out of the situation they are in.

What happened years ago after the Million Man March? Not much if anything. Almost nobody went home after marching and turned their communities around. I would be willing to bet that if you polled 50 inner city black teenagers today, at least 40 of them would not have a clue what you were talking about if asked "What was the Million Man March?"

So fingers can be pointed, but those finger pointers need to take a good look in the mirror and do something about the stigma and bad name they continue to give themselves and their communities.

There is no excuse that validates the behavior that goes on in the cities and increasingly in the suburbs. I can't turn on the news without hearing about all the senseless murders in Philly over a couple bucks. So if as a whole, a certain group of people want to be respected and treated the same as certain other groups, it's time to stop blaming the past and start changing their image and behavior that keeps them in the situation they are currently in.

I am curious as to why this thread was closed.