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  1. #26
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    cd player

    to the origional post. i would go with a used nad 515 . it is a 5 cd changer and a nice little unit. it retailed for 500. i got mine for 350. you might get a used one under a 100. it won some great awards in its day. very comparale to much more expensice single disc units. very warm sounding. i bought it to replace an onkyo integra series cd player that was the brightest, foreign made, tinsel sounding cd player i ever owned for a short period. the 515 is a better unit than unit nad replaced it with according to a lot of reviewer. it has a digital coax out but you will want to use the da converter in the nad for the best sound.i use monster reference interconnect on it only cause i got free from dealer for a big purchase. i sure i paid for it somewhere else.

  2. #27
    Forum Regular Sealed's Avatar
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    Best cdp

    I am not sure what could be classified as "best." Some cd players do things other cannot, so you get a mixture of voicings.

    I can tell you themodels I like, and they are all European or American.

    NAD C541
    Arcam Cd-73
    Rotel cd-955
    Adcom GCD-750*
    Ah Noe Tjoeb 4000**
    Jolida cd-1000**
    Musical Fidelity A3.2 cd *
    Rega Planet 2000
    AMC cd-6as**

    * these cdp's are just over $1000, but worth it.

    ** these cd's use a tube buffer stage for output.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    Yes, you may be very careful. Did you check the level differences, to .1dB? At 1kHz? 10kHz?
    If not, how do you know one wasn't louder?

    It seems you are using only one CD and swap. Even more reason for a DBT listening as your memory wonders. Sighted comparisons for what you are after, audible differences, is just unreliable.
    No, I didn't do a check.
    The reason, I can easily make out differences between loudness and quality of sound...
    What you are saying might be technically correct.But from my experience, they don't work that way in real life.If your claim is true, then the loudest player should have been the winner.It is not so.

  4. #29
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    "Yes, you may be very careful. Did you check the level differences, to .1dB? At 1kHz? 10kHz?
    If not, how do you know one wasn't louder?"

    Mtrycraft are telling me you can tell the difference of +/- 0.1 dB. That's a pretty small difference. I would have to agree with those that say louder is not always better.

  5. #30
    Forum Regular Sealed's Avatar
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    Differences.

    I have a little bit of heartburn with this abx required to hear ....etc...

    It all starts with speakers. Speakers differ wildly.

    Off the shelf JBL,polk, etc are not revealing of much fine detail.

    Move up to ATC, PMC, Wilson, JMlabs, Thiel and so on, and MINUTE differences in anything are easily audible. These speakers are relentlessly revealing.

    If someone says they need a/b/x to hear any difference on a set of JBl 4312A... ok I buy that. But not on modern hyper-detailed monitors.

    I also wonder about certain people that poke holes in other people's ideas and systems, but will not openly describe thier own system. That is ultra suspect IMO.

    If I owned a denon reciever, JBL speakers and a sony cdp... I probably could not tell much difference in cd players or cabling either.
    Last edited by Sealed; 03-03-2004 at 12:28 PM.

  6. #31
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    Speakers are not everything

    Well Sealed I use a pair of high quality Nuance Magic One speakers. I paid $500.00 CDN for these small 2 way bass reflex speakers and I would not consider them high end. In fact they are my weak link by a long shot, every component far surpass what these speakers can do. Although they can sing on my stereo differences can still be heard.

    Although speakers are important and have a large affect on the final sound of any system a good source cannot be over looked. Just like computers garbage in garbage out. The Tjoeb CD player is just a bit better than the Pioneer it replaced.

    Just because you can hear differences does not mean that others do, this applies both ways. Also we all do not listen to the same music or the same way, sometimes I listen to music as background only and at other times just for the music by myself. One thing is for sure neither side will be able to convince the other that they are right. Debate and discussion is good but on this site some people are set in their ways and will repeat the same argument over and over.

    My first stereo cost me more than my first car this was an easy decision for me. My friend bought the nice car and no stereo. To each their own it is not for others to tell them what to spend their money on. However if they ask then it is a different. Then there is always the money issue, even if you can afford you still have to want or should I say need it. I still think everything costs twice as much as it should and I only make half as much money as I am worth. Still got to take care of the must have (needs) before we buy the wants, or you can do as my friend says “just move the wants into the need list”.

    Enjoy the music as life is to short

  7. #32
    Forum Regular Sealed's Avatar
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    hearing

    "Well Sealed I use a pair of high quality Nuance Magic One speakers. I paid $500.00 CDN for these small 2 way bass reflex speakers and I would not consider them high end. In fact they are my weak link by a long shot, every component far surpass what these speakers can do. Although they can sing on my stereo differences can still be heard. "

    )No doubt. There are plenty of affordable speakers that are revealing.

    Although speakers are important and have a large affect on the final sound of any system a good source cannot be over looked. Just like computers garbage in garbage out. The Tjoeb CD player is just a bit better than the Pioneer it replaced.

    ))The statements I made are listening to the output. Some speakers do not convey enough detail for a variety of reasons to make fine judgements, even in ABX.

    I definately feel you need not spend a ton to enjoy music. Nor do you need to spend a ton to get revealing speakers. NHT super zeros with a murphy blaster xover kit are amazingly detailed...for under $450 total.

    My basic point is similar to some of the things you said.
    1) People don't hear the same.
    2) All equipment isn't created equal

    That is why I am skeptical of the skeptics. Especially a few of the semi-anonymous ones that throw rocks. I have read the statement "You cannot hear...or it's a placebo...etc" but ask that person or persons (I know of about 1/2 dozen of this type) and they will tell you what THEY own is irrelevent. That is a cop out to me, and a total elimination of credibility.

    I enjoy the music so long as it's not a mess.

  8. #33
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    "I definately feel you need not spend a ton to enjoy music. Nor do you need to spend a ton to get revealing speakers. NHT super zeros with a murphy blaster xover kit are amazingly detailed...for under $450 total."

    You might not have to spend a ton of money on the stereo parts but the music can add up to a ton of money. All those CD's I have bought add up to a large dollar value and know that I have upgraded my turntable I will have to buy some more records as well.

  9. #34
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    Sealed

    Yep, it's a hobby like anything else.

    I can't tell you how many times I met someone who said "I'd NEVER spend that much on a stereo..."

    But they will have aggregious amounts of money into a car, boat, or other hobby.

    Most stereo's start out modest and grow over time anyway. It's a journey of taste and discovery.

    I will enjoy it despite some people insisting "YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY TELL THE DIFFERENCE IN _________ and ___________ ." I laugh it off and put on the Lp version that sounds better to me than any cd version of the same thing anyway. If someone says I can't tell the difference between LP and Cd, they are truly medicated.

  10. #35
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    No offense but paying a G note for a cd player is insane. For about 700 less buy soemthing every bit as good as the niche market cd players (excluding tube/ss hybrids for those with a taste for the 'warm' ) and far more versatile - a Samsung DVD-HD931 for example. Funny how cd players are becoming what turn tables were about 15 years ago - championed by a few but ultimately obsolete.

  11. #36
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    We all drive Yugo's ?

    By this logic we all should drive the cheapest cars that are sold as it will go from A to B and back as the most expensive one does. The person I am working with has 3 snowmobiles and 2 quads does this make him insane as well. Maybe these are toys and a hobby for him, heck one of those sleds goes like a bat out of hell. I will ride it but never buy one for myself, just not my thing. Also should we all by the same type and size of house because one model fits everybody’s needs. If I had never bought a stereo, CD player, records, saved all the money from the meals I bought and the wine that I drank with it I still would not be able to afford Skeptic's house. I do not tell him not to buy it, heck go for it I would if I could. Given a choice having a life or sitting at home doing nothing I will pick having a good time. Should have gave Bill Gates $500.00 when he was desperate for money.

    If you think the CD player costs too much do not even look at the bill for all the CD's. Heck I do not like to think about how much this adds up to. Honestly if you do not hear a difference buy the cheap one because anything more than that would be a waste of money for you, no insult intended. I bought a cheap pioneer CD player which did not impress me my father has it now, so you better add another $300.00 to the bill. Does the Samsung player get me a beer when I need one; maybe it plays two CD's at the same time that would be neat.

    If you cannot afford the upscale models I fully understand, as I have been there myself. Unwilling to pay for the next model up I also understand. If you do not hear any difference there is no need to waste your money. But when you start telling me what I can hear and how much to spend it is a totally different story. Still think that everything costs twice as much as it should and I only make half as much money as I'm worth.

    Oh, someone should tell the Radio Shack store I was in today that records are obsolete and ancient. Wait, that's exactly what the young kids told me at Circuit City one day, CD's are obsolete and everyone knows that MP3's are the only way to listen to music. Then they told me that they had 40,000 songs and did not pay for one of them, to which I said, is it correct to steal from the musicians. Apparently music is free because it is public information but they wouldn't give me free software.

    Have A Great Day

  12. #37
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    cheap

    Quote Originally Posted by plextor guy
    No offense but paying a G note for a cd player is insane. For about 700 less buy soemthing every bit as good as the niche market cd players (excluding tube/ss hybrids for those with a taste for the 'warm' ) and far more versatile - a Samsung DVD-HD931 for example. Funny how cd players are becoming what turn tables were about 15 years ago - championed by a few but ultimately obsolete.

    UMM..bad idea...very bad idea.


    My system is ruthlessly revealing of any flaw in the chain. The least expensive cd player that is listenable on my system is thr AMC cd-8/solid state version. But there are cd players under and over $1k that have poor internal sheilding, cheap analog section and poor parts. That manifests itself in harshness that comes through (clearly) on a high resolution system.

    The major design flaw of small and cheap cd player is that the power supply/switching p/s is too close to the motherboard and other sensitive components and the resultant mess gets amplified. The idea here is to achieve HIGH fidelity...not crap in=crap out.

    One of those Samsung multi-carousel/cheap/ $100 multiplayer dvd's is virtually unlistenable at worst, poorly detailed or thin and unmusical at best. It would be like putting a $49 PC cd output into a hifi. I have a Technics DVD-A-10 , and the harshness on cd playback is very obvious. And no, it's not malfunctioning.

    I have been there, tried that, and it sounds very bad.

    Vinyl is not championed by just a few. In fact, I just bought a great turntable. In the past year, SACD sold 100,000 units. Vinyl sold 600,000 units, and that's just NEW sales. Give me a used $300 Rega p3 deck with an $80 cart over any cd player under $2k any day.

  13. #38
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    Sealed, I have heard you rave on about vinyl (and many others who have also).
    I will soon start with my vinyl collection once i find a local place to buy a new stylus. (I dont want to pay the big shipping charges online)
    However, even then I think I would buy BOTH CD and vinyl.
    Some stuff you just can't get on vinyl anymore. In addition, although the quality is better, sometimes the convenience is just not there, such as skipping a track or something.
    However, if I was devoting time to just listening to stuff then sure vinyl would be great!
    Sometimes just not the most practical.

  14. #39
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    Vinyl

    Well as I stated before:

    I have been agonizing over getting into vinyl since 1999. I had to many "yeah" "but" if's"
    I did a lot of listening to decks from $200 up to (censored)

    I found that even a simple Rega p3, RB300 arm, and $80 Grado moving magnet cart (all of this for $200- $300 used) is simple to set up and it does in fact do something that most cd players don't.


    The fluidity, dimensionality, transparency, detail and musicality of the midrange suck you into the seat, and you just don't want to leave.

    Good example. Steely Dan: Gaucho. Play the cd. Even on expensive cd players this recording sounds less involving than an inexpensive TT and vinyl. You feel compelled to listen.

    I found the absoloute key is to get a vacuum based record cleaning machine like the Nitty gritty or VPI. I purchased the manual model Nitty Gritty for about $290 (with shipping)

    This machine will extract dirt from grooves that hand cleaning cannot. I hand cleaned some noisy lp's, and that got rid of 80% of the noises. The machine took care of the rest. Putting on the vinyl now, there is DEAD silence from the lp. Just music.

    Yes analog takes a bit more work, but unlike cd, it has a soul. And if you clean the lp's you will be immersed in magic.
    Last edited by Sealed; 03-05-2004 at 12:23 AM.

  15. #40
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    Woah!

    WHAT!!!!? you can clean them with some sort of machine???
    the nitty gritty what??
    where can i get them??

    hmm...what am I saying...I need to build up a collection first...I have nothing to clean!
    well...not very many anyways.

  16. #41
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    Cleaning machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 92135011
    WHAT!!!!? you can clean them with some sort of machine???
    the nitty gritty what??
    where can i get them??

    hmm...what am I saying...I need to build up a collection first...I have nothing to clean!
    well...not very many anyways.
    Many place have them,

    Needle doctor among others. I did a google search for nitty gritty 1.0
    www.amusicdirect.com is the cheapest. Any dealer that sells vinyl will get them also.

  17. #42
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    Check this out...

    Quote Originally Posted by vansonrider
    Hello,

    Hello fellow Audio buffs. Iím looking to upgrade my CD player in my system. Itís a Sony CDP-C745 5 disk changer with optical out. I upgraded once to a HK fl8450 but the stupid thing died on me. The Sony is about 7 years old and has been faithful. I think itís one of the weakest links in my system but I do love the changer feature. I know some audiophiles may scoff at the thought of a changer but I love the convenience. Iím willing to go single if I have to but would prefer a changer. My system is a follows.

    Anthem AVM 20 1.12
    Citation 7.1 x 2 amps
    Revel M20 mains
    Atlantic technologies center (I looking for a Revel C30)
    Dynaudio audience 40 rears
    Audioquest Mammoth speaker cables
    Cardas interconnect to all sources
    Sony DVP-NS700P DVD
    JVC direct view TV
    No sub I live in an apartment

    I think my system is fairly good. Hey I'm trying...... I am willing to spend $700 to 1K on a player. Any suggestions and how should I hook it up?

    Thanks
    Vansonrider
    Music Hall MMF CD-25 HDCD 24/96 CD Player
    Tjames, 03/3/2004 It ONLY plays redbook CD's & HDCD's. It sure got my attention, has me rethinking my whole system upgrade plan. Audio Advisor has it for $535?
    & HCM has it for $500 & change (which includes special anti jitter feet, interconnects & some sort of anti jitter(?) pad). I urge you to read this review. It's one of the best that I've read on this site. Good luck, Michael
    Last edited by Number9; 03-05-2004 at 11:51 AM.

  18. #43
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    I'll try again...

    I'm a cut & paste novice but here goes.Music Hall MMF CD-25 HDCD 24/96 CD Player
    Tjames, 03/3/2004. It did'nt work again . Oh well, check out this review here in Audioreview. Good luck, Michael

  19. #44
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    slow down...

    You're comparing snowmobiles and houses to cdp's? You might as well compare digital watches to brands of herbal tea. CDP's are in fact obsolete. Way obsolete. Terms like 'revealing' are laughable. The only more wasteful hardware purchase ('high-end' cdp that is) would be high dollar interconnects.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by plextor guy
    You're comparing snowmobiles and houses to cdp's? You might as well compare digital watches to brands of herbal tea. CDP's are in fact obsolete. Way obsolete. Terms like 'revealing' are laughable. The only more wasteful hardware purchase ('high-end' cdp that is) would be high dollar interconnects.
    It is readily appearent that your presence here is just to troll, and thread-crap.

    It is obvious you have never heard a high end system, nor are you an audiophile.

    You don't belong in this thread.

    Enjoy your mp3's. Ignorance is bliss.

  21. #46
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    stop it!

    Do you have any idea how ignorant you sound? Ten years ago I might have entertained a post like this but no longer. Don't drag newbies down a dead-end as I was dragged (albeit willingly - my fault). Stop the insanity and give credit where credit is due - speakers, speaker placement and source material. CDP's are APPLIANCES and are now obsolete, especially if the d/a is done by your receiver or preamp. Stop it, stop it, stop it.

  22. #47
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    troll? nope.

    Angry? Yes. I've came to the conclusion long ago that 80% of audio enthusiasm is based on nothing. It is an industry that is out of control in terms of hype. It is an arena where non technical people can aspire to look knowledgeable through the use of non technical, unproveable claims. All any newb wanting high quuality playback need know is that you must have speakers you like listening to, pay attention to how the speakers are placed in the room they occupy and that high quality source material makes all the difference in the world. EVERYTHING else is details. If you're being honest with yourself you'll admit that this is the truth.

  23. #48
    Forum Regular Sealed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plextor guy
    Do you have any idea how ignorant you sound? Ten years ago I might have entertained a post like this but no longer. Don't drag newbies down a dead-end as I was dragged (albeit willingly - my fault). Stop the insanity and give credit where credit is due - speakers, speaker placement and source material. CDP's are APPLIANCES and are now obsolete, especially if the d/a is done by your receiver or preamp. Stop it, stop it, stop it.
    Don Quixote???

    There is no dead end. Just because YOU made bad choices, doesn't mean I did or anyone else has. You are a bitter guy and it shows. Cd hasn't been obsoleted by anything. SACD hasn't caught fire. I have some cd's that sound better than SACD's, and vinyl sounds better than either.

    You are the ignorant one. Receiver? There are no recievers in high end. They are mid-fi. D/A (digital) hasn't obsoleted anything in itself. It is compressed, sampled, and processed sounding. Even Meridian lossless packing has dither noise and other digital flaws, so it's far from perfect.

    Your findings are indicative of your own sad life and bad attitude.

    Unprovable? hardly. Garbage in=garbage out. You would know that if you ever actually owned revealing speakers, again--obviously you have not. You are in the 1% fringe and it shows.

    You are tilting against windmills pal, you are raging against the machine. I suggest you get some anti-depressants and crawl back into your cave. You are sadly disgruntled and misguided. Get some professional help. And go away.

    Last edited by Sealed; 03-06-2004 at 08:56 AM.

  24. #49
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    you're not listening..

    but you're half right. The choices I made in the beginning were not the choices I would make now. I went through a lot of trial and error until I finally got what I need and what pleases me. No thanks to people like you. I innocently bought into a lot of the crap you hear in these forums. There is nothing more despicable than someone regurgitating audio hype to newbs if that person knows in his or her heart of hearts that what they are saying is bogus. Hopefully you do not fall into this catagory. As for receivers, what exactly do you mean by 'high-end'? The term 'high-end' and 'revealing' mean nothing. Engineers, technicians and other techno savy people laugh at this terminology. It means nothing. And I didn't say CD technology is obsolete. It is the dedicated CDP that is obsolete. You did get the rage against the machine part right. It feels good to vent sometimes and if I'm saving just one newb from taking your babble at face value then I've done some good.

  25. #50
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    Trolling on

    Quote Originally Posted by plextor guy
    but you're half right. The choices I made in the beginning were not the choices I would make now. I went through a lot of trial and error until I finally got what I need and what pleases me. No thanks to people like you. I innocently bought into a lot of the crap you hear in these forums. There is nothing more despicable than someone regurgitating audio hype to newbs if that person knows in his or her heart of hearts that what they are saying is bogus. Hopefully you do not fall into this catagory. As for receivers, what exactly do you mean by 'high-end'? The term 'high-end' and 'revealing' mean nothing. Engineers, technicians and other techno savy people laugh at this terminology. It means nothing. And I didn't say CD technology is obsolete. It is the dedicated CDP that is obsolete. You did get the rage against the machine part right. It feels good to vent sometimes and if I'm saving just one newb from taking your babble at face value then I've done some good.
    You have a serious problem. I am not kidding.

    Before you babble on ignorantly (as you have been) I have not hyped anything wrong. If you had the slightest clue about engineering, you would know how full of SH** you are.

    Engineers? I'll give you the facts.

    Receivers are built into an integrated chassis. They use cheaper power supplies that are too close to the motherboard. Instead of discreet components, they use integrated chips. receiver sound rates from utter crap, to very good. But they still lack openness, detail and slam of separates...BY DESIGN LIMITATION.

    More expensive cd players have better anti-resonant transports. They have shielded toroids, and better quality parts. The analog stage is more elaborate, to better smooth the signal from digital nastiness.

    Single resistive measurements of cd players show flat 20hz-20khz. That says very little. There are many more variables than that one number. Otherwise, why would a vaccum tube buffer cd player sound warmer, despite measuring flat? because there is more to measurements than that.

    I can see you are locked into a Circuit-City mentality and have no clue what high end is or how it is engineered and contructed.

    A cheap speaker can have good basic performance, but without a well engineered crossover to make those drivers integrate and work togeather, the speaker will be mediocre at best. Better speakers not only use better parts, but the crossovers have baffle step compensation, along with possible time and phase corrective measures.

    A cheep sub will have a short x-max and a less rigid driver. A good sub will have a strong, linear motor and a long x-max.

    The only "mythology" polluting this forum is your obvious inability to grasp what highend is, and how big a difference engineering makes.

    You need to go away and get a clue. You obviously learned ZERO in your "years" of audio...which is a laugh and a half.

    Here is your FIRST clue:
    http://www.audioperfectionist.com

    These guys are REAL engineers, and they don't laugh. They only laugh at clueless drones like you trolling and babbling. Go away, and learn. You have polluted this thread with your doom-and-gloom mindless babbling.

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