You guys ought to publish your theories!

[mtrycraft]

Do you have a screw loose in your brain? 150 years ago before we had vaccines waves of epidemics of diseases killed millions of people all over the world that are practically unknown today except in history books. Diptheria, Pertussis, Polio, Smallpox, Measles just to name a few. If someone can point to a handful of suspicious cases of the billions of people who have been vaccinated, what does that say about vaccinations? A tiny percentage of people die from drinking water but nobody is talking about giving that up either. NOBODY responsible in any government or medical association in major country in this world or in any international health agency such as the WHO would ever dream of suggesting that we give up vaccinations. On the contrary, they are pushing for universal vaccinations because they are effective at preventing disease. Only wackos fight this one. Give it up.

You are talking to a closed mind. I am not sure what you are expecting to get from it

How about the quality of the public drinking water? Do we want to do away with all the chemicals in it? LOL Someone may be allergic to it. Some are allergic to themselves That designer needs to be fired!

[Thomas_A]

Siper2,

where are the proof? I am working at the Swedish CDC so hit me with some references. E.g. the latest discussion about vaccines giving autism has proven to be complete nonsense.

And your chemicals in the list. What are the concentrations and amounts required to get the diseases and what are the amounts you get from antibiotics, vaccines and not the least, food? What is the daily dose intake of these compunds through food? Per year? What's the intake for normal vaccination? Please provide data and evidence.

T

[Siper2]

Evidence....


Hmmm.....

Dead children. But that's not "evidence."

And I'm the one with a loose screw?


Like I said, if nobody wants to do their own damned homework, I really could care less.
You guys are always good for a laugh, though.

Besides, I never said all vaccines should be eliminated. Quite obviously, many of them were developed for a specific purpose. But to keep pumping the stuff into babies, in very large quantities straight from birth--especially when most of the diseases either don't exist or aren't a threat anymore--is nonsense.

Like I said, I could spend six hours going through the New England Journal of Medicine and the Journal of the American Medical Association (the two publications I listed), giving you medicine's own records of proof. But I don't think it would do me any good.

I think you guys just like to listen to yourselves talk, which is fine by me. You have to know when to pick your battles, and one trying to teach a new thing to a small handful of anonymous individuals over the Internet is of little interest to me. If you guys were the least bit serious about telling me there is no documented proof, you'd actually get away from your keyboards and look.

You fellas have fun. This "closed mind" is going shopping for a power drill.

=S2=

[skeptic]

"Quite obviously, many of them were developed for a specific purpose."

Actually that is not quite right. ALL OF THEM WERE INVENTED FOR A SPECIFIC PURPOSE. Each one was developed to prevent a specific disease. Are you going to tell people at risk for AIDS not to get vaccinated too when an effective vaccine is finally available?

There are a certain tiny percentage of people who are killed in their cars in an accident because the seat belt and shoulder harness trapped them inside. But it's minute compared to the countless lives which they saved including mine. Are you going to tell people to stop wearing their seat belts too even though it's the law?

"But to keep pumping the stuff into babies, in very large quantities straight from birth--especially when most of the diseases either don't exist or aren't a threat anymore--is nonsense."

Babies as I recall are not vaccinated at birth. It takes time for their immune systems to develop to the point where vaccination become prudent. The quantity of vaccine is adjusted to trigger the desired immune response so that when one is confronted with the real live organism, huge quantities of specific antibodies are generated to prevent the disease. The quantity necessary to assure this response was determined experimentally so to characterize it as huge is pejorative and doesn't make your case. As for these diseases being non existant, as I said, polio is making a strong resurgance in Africa because in some areas, false religious beliefs have caused large cuts in the percentage of children being vaccinated. Only when a viral disease is wiped off the face of the earth is it safe to stop vaccinating. As for bacterial diseases, it will never be safe to stop.

If we are to believe in "alternative medicine", which one should we pick and how do we make that decision. Should we believe in Christian Science which tells us not to take any medicine at all and that blood transfusions transgress the will of god? Should we believe in voodoo? Should we fabricate a golden goat and pray to Baal?

"trying to teach a new thing to a small handful of anonymous individuals over the Internet is of little interest to me."

It is you who will not be taught. You have your prejudiced view of medicine which is only held by a tiny minority of civilized people who are ridiculed as cultists because what they have to say flies in the face of hundreds of years of medical science struggling to learn the real facts and find medical treatments which really work. The only risk is that people like you will convince others to avoid life saving medical treatment. If they are adults, they risk their own lives. But when they deprive their children, at least in our society, the law forces the courts to step in and see to it that minors get the appropriate medical treatment which is available and if cultists step in the way, they risk being convicted of crimes. That's how the vast majority of people in our society see it.

[Thomas_A]

Dead children? Evidence where there is a small risk 1 per 1,000,000 to get complications due to vaccination but where there is a risk of 1 per 1000 if you do not vaccinate? Ever heard of risk analysis? Case-control studies with relevant removal of confounders?

I don't say that everything is risk-free, but to be sure there is an association with complications or increased death you need case-control studies and relevant data. I have read a lot and not seen any. Right now there is this discussion regarding breast cancer and antibiotic use (JAMA). Care to comment on the missed confounders?

MMR vaccine risk for autism was screamed out in the media and parents did not want to do that any longer (Dr Wakefield in CBS 60 min). When it was later stated that he only had an hypothesis and that in six different and independent studies, this hypothesis could not be verified. See review

"Communicating science to the public: MMR vaccine and autism", in Vaccine vol 22, issue 1 (2003).

There has been one report of allergy increase in Pertussis vaccination, but the study has flaws. In the large Pertussis vaccination program in Sweden with DTP or DTPa vaccine there was no association with allergy. If anything, there was an increase of allergy development in those children who actually had suffered active whooping cough. More studies are needed, but there is so far no evidence for association of pertussis vaccination and allergy. If anything, vaccination would prevent whooping cough and subsequent allergy development. And you know the death rate of whooping cough in children <1 year? And what happened when the vaccination ceased in UK and Scaninavia? Yes, new outbreaks...

There is no risk shown for your chemicals in vaccines. They are often trace elements, with exception for adjuvans, and there is much more intake of many of these compounds during you daily life through food and water. Please provide any evidence to your list of chemicals in vaccines rather than provide animal and LD50 experiments etc.

Since you claim that we do not make our home-work, you apparently have not done it yourself. It's shown by your list of chemicals in vaccines above.

[skeptic]

"Evidence where there is a small risk 1 per 1,000,000 to get complications due to vaccination but where there is a risk of 1 per 1000 if you do not vaccinate?"

How many people died in the influenza epidemic of 1918 before we had flu shots to prevent it and modern medicines available to treat those who caught it? It was a disaster. What about all of the cholera and typhoid epidemics througout history? Anybody remember "the black plague?" At one point, one epidemic of bubonic plague wiped out one quarter of Europe. Where was your herbal medicine then? But it's easy pickins as I understand it...for penicillin and other antibiotics. Herbal medicines and chiropractic are worthless against it. Which would YOU choose for your child Siper?

[skeptic]

Here are some numbers from the 1918 influenza pandemic;

"The first cases of the influenza epidemic in Britain appeared in Glasgow in May, 1918. It soon spread to other towns and cities and during the next few months the virus killed 228,000 people in Britain. This was the highest mortality rate for any epidemic since the outbreak of cholera in 1849.

In Britain desperate methods were used to prevent the spread of the disease. Streets were sprayed with chemicals and people started wearing anti-germ masks. Some factories changed their no-smoking rules under the mistaken impression that tobacco fumes could kill the virus. Others believed that eating plenty of porridge would protect you from this killer disease. However, despite valiant attempts, all treatments devised to cope with this new strain of influenza were completely ineffectual.

The USA was also very badly affected by the virus. By September a particularly virulent strain began to sweep through the country. By early December about 450,000 Americans had died of the disease.

The country that suffered most was India. The first cases appeared in Bombay in June 1918. The following month deaths were being reported in Karachi and Madras. With large numbers of India's doctors serving with the British Army the country was unable to cope with the epidemic. Some historians claim that between June 1918 and July 1919 over 16,000,000 people in India died of the virus.

It has been estimated that throughout the world over 70 million people died of the influenza pandemic. In India alone, more people died of influenza than were killed all over the world during the entire First World War."

Flu vaccine would have prevented all of it. How many people did you say died from flu vaccine Siper? I repeat my previous question to you Siper, do you have a screw loose in your brain?

BTW, this info came from;

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWinfluenzia.htm

[Thomas_A]

Cited from

http://www.immunisation.org.uk/reasons.html

t gives them the best chance of not catching certain infectious childhood diseases.


These diseases can have dangerous complications and can prove fatal, even with modern medical care.


Combined with improvements in hygiene and nutrition, the public vaccination programmes have saved millions of children from suffering and death.


For example, in the years before the measles vaccine was introduced, an average of 250,000 cases were recorded annually in England and Wales, and 85 children died. In 1999, 2,438 cases were recorded and two people died, both from the later effects of the disease caught in the 1980s or before.

[skeptic]

Safe and effective are the criteria the FDA uses for approval of drugs and other medical treatment in the USA. Herbs and vitamins as treatment for disease are not effective and some of them are unsafe. Despite the talk radio programs advocating them for the treatment of disease, they very carefully state a disclaimer saying that the program does not give medical advice and no health benefits are actually claimed. The herb and vitamin industry get around the approved drug laws because they are classified as food or food supliments and therefore not subject to the same restrictions as medicines.

It appears that there may soon be a SARS vaccine. Siper, will you tell the Chinese government not to use it. China practically invented herbal medicine. Would they listen to you? What do you think?

[mtrycraft]

Dead children? Evidence where there is a small risk 1 per 1,000,000 to get complications due to vaccination but where there is a risk of 1 per 1000 if you do not vaccinate? Ever heard of risk analysis? Case-control studies with relevant removal of confounders?

I don't say that everything is risk-free, but to be sure there is an association with complications or increased death you need case-control studies and relevant data. I have read a lot and not seen any. Right now there is this discussion regarding breast cancer and antibiotic use (JAMA). Care to comment on the missed confounders?

MMR vaccine risk for autism was screamed out in the media and parents did not want to do that any longer (Dr Wakefield in CBS 60 min). When it was later stated that he only had an hypothesis and that in six different and independent studies, this hypothesis could not be verified. See review

"Communicating science to the public: MMR vaccine and autism", in Vaccine vol 22, issue 1 (2003).

There has been one report of allergy increase in Pertussis vaccination, but the study has flaws. In the large Pertussis vaccination program in Sweden with DTP or DTPa vaccine there was no association with allergy. If anything, there was an increase of allergy development in those children who actually had suffered active whooping cough. More studies are needed, but there is so far no evidence for association of pertussis vaccination and allergy. If anything, vaccination would prevent whooping cough and subsequent allergy development. And you know the death rate of whooping cough in children <1 year? And what happened when the vaccination ceased in UK and Scaninavia? Yes, new outbreaks...

There is no risk shown for your chemicals in vaccines. They are often trace elements, with exception for adjuvans, and there is much more intake of many of these compounds during you daily life through food and water. Please provide any evidence to your list of chemicals in vaccines rather than provide animal and LD50 experiments etc.

Since you claim that we do not make our home-work, you apparently have not done it yourself. It's shown by your list of chemicals in vaccines above.

I wonder what he has to say about peanuts killing people? Or making them so sick that they need emergency care? Or mangos?, Or tomatoes for some friends of mine? Or, any number of other foods.

I wonder if the chiro industry has ever cured anything on the planet? Wiped out any desease? Extended anyones longevity? Cured anything?
For that matter, any alternative medicine or treatments?

Unfortunately there are enough gullible people that will follow this sirt of dangerous nonsense to cause major consequences for others as the resurgence of wiped out desease comes back.