You guys ought to publish your theories!

[mtrycraft]

"When you present them as being opposed to vaccination because it has 'chemicals'
nothing further needs to be said. They are out to lunch.
When Phil Donahue comes on the scene and denounces it as well and the gullible public follow him causing the resurgence of everything that we have eliminated, nothing left to say.

Pertussis was well controlled and almost eliminated until another idiot Justus Strum in Sweden comes on scence and and the rest is history, how pertussis is regaining a foothold in many countries.


Those who "disbelieve" in its effectiveness,

Oh, so one needs to believe? Sounds like a religion to me, one needs to believe."

Thanks to the idiocy of some Moslem clerics in Africa, people are being frightened to the point where they are refusing to have their children vaccinated and polio which was on the verge of being wiped out is now making a strong resurgence there. One more unnecessary tragedy to befall the people of Africa who suffer so much already.

Unfortunately it doesn't affect those idiot leaders.

[Siper2]

mtrycraft,

Actually, there's a lot of proof. Again, it's a matter of people actually looking them up.

As for your claims of having to believe something, that is why I put "belief" in quotes, to state exactly the contrary.

Back to the matter of proof:

Vaccines alone:
- ammonium sulfate (can be poisonous to gastrointestinal (GI), liver, nerve and respiratory function)
- beta-propiolactone (some links to cancers, also GI, liver, respiratory, skin and sensory organ danger)
- viral DNA
- latex rubber (commonly known to cause allergic reactions, and that's only topical, not intraveinous)
- monosodium glutamate (commonly called MSG, it's a neurotoxin)
- aluminum (linked to brain damage)
- formaldehyde (embalming fluid, linked to leukemia, brain, colon and lymphatic cancers, among other problems)
- micro-organisms (not saying these are entirely bad, they're much the reason vaccines exist... however what worked for polio is STILL being used, and turns up on bone, lung lining, brain tumors and lymphomas)
- polysorbate 80 (has caused cancers in animals)
- tri(n)butylphosphate (kidney and nerve toxin)
- glutaraldehyde (birth defects in tested animals)
- gelatin (some allergic reactions reported)
- gentamicin sulfate & polymoxin B (antibiotics, with mild to fatal reactions common)
- mercury (one of the more poisonous substances known--minute amounts cause nerve damage... many cases of autism in children linked to mercury in vaccinations, especially in recent media)
- neomycin sulfate (epilepsy, mental retardation, allergic reactions vary)
- phenol/pneoxyethanol (antifreeze)
- human & animal cells (human cells from aborted fetal tissue... pig/horse blood, rabbit brain, guinea pig, dog kidney, cow heart, monkey kidney, chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg, calf secrum, sheep blood, etc.)

There are entire legions of parents getting away from vaccinations, thousands of whom have had children fall ill as a direct result of unnecessary vaccination, pushed by doctors.
Yet most parents don't know that many state laws allow for a choice.
Hundreds of children die every year due to these things. And it's not only them.... I was at a seminar once, where a former Marine went in to teary detail of the drug rounds he had to receive prior to going overseas in Desert Storm. He nearly died from the reactions.
Under certain circumstances, caution is necessary--however overzealous usage leads to what he went through.

The drugs and some symptoms are matters of public record, obtained mostly through medical research (from NEJM, JAMA and other widely-respected healthcare resources).
This particular list I copied down from a handout given at various healthcare institutions.
Tedd Koren, DC is a major moving force in chiropractic and the truth about some of modern medicine's failings. www.korenpublications.com

Honestly I could sit here for six hours and spout of sources, but I'm busy watching Law&Order with my wife. Good two-hour special. Koren's site is one of the most useful sources for objective views on things the public simply hasn't been aware of, unless they did a lot of digging on their own. (Again the comparison of bringing the information to the surface.. the cable analogy... As the thread's originator I'm obliged to mention that once or twice, I suppose. ) In the 1970s, the medical profession tried to debunk chiropractic in the high court, based on nothing but superficial claims that chiros are charlatans.

Naturally, they lost. Yet mysteriously never paid what they were ordered to pay. Interesting.

As for Koren, his information is definitely stirring, and has challenged structure for many years. He's been sued by several people, including the federal government, for similar unsubstantiated claims. They all lost. For the simple fact that the claims against him had no basis in fact, but I'd love to meet his lawyers.


Don't get me wrong, really. When I said that the medical system needs its foundations, I meant it. If I get run over by a truck, you'd damn well better bring me to the ER to get my **** sewn back on. I do take allergy medication when I really need to. I'm not an extremist by any measure, when it comes to this. Just a messenger for the obvious, which other people see as "false." Every healthcare field deserves its place. When they overstep their bounds, that's when trouble starts.

Chiropractors might take slack for bringing this info in the open, but they were just one of the only major forces to do so. If it had been a team of plumbers, so be it. The facts would still be there. My belief is this: any chiropractor who claims that they can indefinitely heal you of a symptom is full of ****. Usually, symptoms do subside, as the cause of the problem is found. They're one of the only remaining practices, in western healthcare at least, that has an ounce of belief in the body's ability to heal itself (which is rather what it was intended to do). You absolutely do not need to pop a pill for every sniffle.
But you sure as hell wouldn't believe that, based on the TV-loaded advertisements pushed forth by the pharmaceutical companies, who of course sell through doctors. More free media regulations might be helping their money-making causes, I have no idea.

I do NOT want all drugs abolished. I do NOT want MDs or DOs or whoever to be nonexistent. What I do want is some practice of good sense. Chiropractic was the first official profession to look to the spine for the CAUSE of dis-ease. Since the brain controls every function of the body, and its only pathway is via the spinal cord to all the nerve endings which touch every cell you possess, one would think somebody bloody well ought to be teaching preventative maintenance of such an important structure.

After all... dentistry had its share of naysayers, yet now nobody would even dare go to sleep without brushing, and visiting for a cleaning twice a year. And that's just a few external bones. Never mind the structure that maintains the entire human frame.

Now if you'll excuse me.... I have to go find out who those NYC lawyers are going to convict...

=S2=

[skeptic]

Do you have a screw loose in your brain? 150 years ago before we had vaccines waves of epidemics of diseases killed millions of people all over the world that are practically unknown today except in history books. Diptheria, Pertussis, Polio, Smallpox, Measles just to name a few. If someone can point to a handful of suspicious cases of the billions of people who have been vaccinated, what does that say about vaccinations? A tiny percentage of people die from drinking water but nobody is talking about giving that up either. NOBODY responsible in any government or medical association in major country in this world or in any international health agency such as the WHO would ever dream of suggesting that we give up vaccinations. On the contrary, they are pushing for universal vaccinations because they are effective at preventing disease. Only wackos fight this one. Give it up.

[skeptic]

But counselor, your opinion runs contrary to the current views mainstream America which is fed up with crime and criminals and is tired of having appologists find ways to get the criminals off so they can go out and commit more mayhem and destroy more lives. Your way has been tried and failed. Face it Tower, the philosophy of flower child generation of the 1960s is finished forever. You can put away your sandals and your tie dyes. Whatever the reason for their anti social behavior, America wants criminals off the streets.

[mtrycraft]

mtrycraft,

Actually, there's a lot of proof. Again, it's a matter of people actually looking them up.

As for your claims of having to believe something, that is why I put "belief" in quotes, to state exactly the contrary.

Back to the matter of proof:

Vaccines alone:
- ammonium sulfate (can be poisonous to gastrointestinal (GI), liver, nerve and respiratory function)
- beta-propiolactone (some links to cancers, also GI, liver, respiratory, skin and sensory organ danger)
- viral DNA
- latex rubber (commonly known to cause allergic reactions, and that's only topical, not intraveinous)
- monosodium glutamate (commonly called MSG, it's a neurotoxin)
- aluminum (linked to brain damage)
- formaldehyde (embalming fluid, linked to leukemia, brain, colon and lymphatic cancers, among other problems)
- micro-organisms (not saying these are entirely bad, they're much the reason vaccines exist... however what worked for polio is STILL being used, and turns up on bone, lung lining, brain tumors and lymphomas)
- polysorbate 80 (has caused cancers in animals)
- tri(n)butylphosphate (kidney and nerve toxin)
- glutaraldehyde (birth defects in tested animals)
- gelatin (some allergic reactions reported)
- gentamicin sulfate & polymoxin B (antibiotics, with mild to fatal reactions common)
- mercury (one of the more poisonous substances known--minute amounts cause nerve damage... many cases of autism in children linked to mercury in vaccinations, especially in recent media)
- neomycin sulfate (epilepsy, mental retardation, allergic reactions vary)
- phenol/pneoxyethanol (antifreeze)
- human & animal cells (human cells from aborted fetal tissue... pig/horse blood, rabbit brain, guinea pig, dog kidney, cow heart, monkey kidney, chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg, calf secrum, sheep blood, etc.)


You offer no proof. Media reports are nothing more than testimonials unless you have actual Journal citations in them, credible ones.


There are entire legions of parents getting away from vaccinations,

Proof of gullibility, mass hysteria, stupidness.

thousands of whom have had children fall ill as a direct result of unnecessary vaccination, pushed by doctors.

Thousands of children fall ill. You have no proof of your cause and effect. Perhaps coffeee should be banned. After all, how many drivers in car accidents had coffeee that morning?

Yet most parents don't know that many state laws allow for a choice.

Proves nothing except ignorance.


Hundreds of children die every year due to these things.

Prove it. Thousands die in cars, swimming pools, homes, etc.

I was at a seminar once, where a former Marine went in to teary detail of the drug rounds he had to receive prior to going overseas in Desert Storm. He nearly died from the reactions.

Maybe he did. Maybe it was something else? So you throw out the baby with the bathwater?


Under certain circumstances, caution is necessary--however overzealous usage leads to what he went through.


Most likely. So you do the above?

The drugs and some symptoms are matters of public record, obtained mostly through medical research (from NEJM, JAMA and other widely-respected healthcare resources).

I suppose then you don't have anyone use it because there are known side effects? How about the side effect of no vaccination? Dying of the desease?




This particular list I copied down from a handout given at various healthcare institutions.
Tedd Koren, DC is a major moving force in chiropractic and the truth about some of modern medicine's failings. www.korenpublications.com

So he is a reliable source? Based on what research? Holistic research?

Honestly I could sit here for six hours and spout of sources,


And that would make your last citation better than the first one? Oh, yes, the first is not worth the paper it was typped on.

but I'm busy watching Law&Order with my wife. Good two-hour special.

Please enjoy it. That is more worthwhile than this.


Koren's site is one of the most useful sources for objective views on things the public simply hasn't been aware of, unless they did a lot of digging on their own.


Well, that is your biased opinion, of course as you accept it, hook line and sinker.

In the 1970s, the medical profession tried to debunk chiropractic in the high court, based on nothing but superficial claims that chiros are charlatans.

Depends on what they preach. Childrens spinal manipulation, anti vaccination, anything similar, then the shoe fits.


Naturally, they lost.


I seriously doubt this whole account of the issue. Citations please. I would be interested how the truth gets distorted.


As for Koren, his information is definitely stirring, and has challenged structure for many years.

Of course. That is why he is still an alternative issue.

He's been sued by several people, including the federal government, for similar unsubstantiated claims. They all lost.

That is his story of course.

For the simple fact that the claims against him had no basis in fact, but I'd love to meet his lawyers.

LOL. No basis in fact


If I get run over by a truck, you'd damn well better bring me to the ER to get my **** sewn back on.

Why? Can't a chiro fix you up?

I do take allergy medication when I really need to.

Oh, cannot be met by a chiro or homeopathic medication? Doesn't work?

I'm not an extremist by any measure, when it comes to this.


You just pick and choose untill you need the real mccoy, right?

Just a messenger for the obvious,


No, a messenger for the unproven, unsupportable.

Every healthcare field deserves its place.

Yes, and chiro over steps its boundary all the time because their boundary is so restrictive otherwise.


Chiropractors might take slack for bringing this info in the open, but they were just one of the only major forces to do so.


No different from the audio guys


If it had been a team of plumbers, so be it. The facts would still be there.

No facts there for either.

My belief is this:

Belief? Or you know?

Usually, symptoms do subside, as the cause of the problem is found.


Many go away by itself, such as a cold symptom when it runs its course, right?

They're one of the only remaining practices, in western healthcare at least, that has an ounce of belief in the body's ability to heal itself (which is rather what it was intended to do).

How do you know what was intended to do? Were you on the design team?
Yes, colds do go away by itself. Some cancers go to remission too, etc.


You absolutely do not need to pop a pill for every sniffle.


You are right. But it is the 21st century and an society of instant this, instant that.


But you sure as hell wouldn't believe that, based on the TV-loaded advertisements pushed forth by the pharmaceutical companies, who of course sell through doctors.

Oh, please. You mean this business practice is unique to medicine?


Chiropractic was the first official profession to look to the spine for the CAUSE of dis-ease.

That is unfortunate.

Since the brain controls every function of the body, and its only pathway is via the spinal cord to all the nerve endings which touch every cell you possess, one would think somebody bloody well ought to be teaching preventative maintenance of such an important structure.

Of course, if you believe this is necessary. Would be better if one knew for a fact.

After all... dentistry had its share of naysayers, yet now nobody would even dare go to sleep without brushing, and visiting for a cleaning twice a year.

Flouride has nothing to do with kids having zero cavities? Why twice a year? No more drilling, got to make it up some other way, right?

And that's just a few external bones. Never mind the structure that maintains the entire human frame.

Yes, of course, it is the spines fault. All those stupid doctors.

[mtrycraft]

Do you have a screw loose in your brain? 150 years ago before we had vaccines waves of epidemics of diseases killed millions of people all over the world that are practically unknown today except in history books. Diptheria, Pertussis, Polio, Smallpox, Measles just to name a few. If someone can point to a handful of suspicious cases of the billions of people who have been vaccinated, what does that say about vaccinations? A tiny percentage of people die from drinking water but nobody is talking about giving that up either. NOBODY responsible in any government or medical association in major country in this world or in any international health agency such as the WHO would ever dream of suggesting that we give up vaccinations. On the contrary, they are pushing for universal vaccinations because they are effective at preventing disease. Only wackos fight this one. Give it up.

You are talking to a closed mind. I am not sure what you are expecting to get from it

How about the quality of the public drinking water? Do we want to do away with all the chemicals in it? LOL Someone may be allergic to it. Some are allergic to themselves That designer needs to be fired!

[Thomas_A]

Siper2,

where are the proof? I am working at the Swedish CDC so hit me with some references. E.g. the latest discussion about vaccines giving autism has proven to be complete nonsense.

And your chemicals in the list. What are the concentrations and amounts required to get the diseases and what are the amounts you get from antibiotics, vaccines and not the least, food? What is the daily dose intake of these compunds through food? Per year? What's the intake for normal vaccination? Please provide data and evidence.

T

[Siper2]

Evidence....


Hmmm.....

Dead children. But that's not "evidence."

And I'm the one with a loose screw?


Like I said, if nobody wants to do their own damned homework, I really could care less.
You guys are always good for a laugh, though.

Besides, I never said all vaccines should be eliminated. Quite obviously, many of them were developed for a specific purpose. But to keep pumping the stuff into babies, in very large quantities straight from birth--especially when most of the diseases either don't exist or aren't a threat anymore--is nonsense.

Like I said, I could spend six hours going through the New England Journal of Medicine and the Journal of the American Medical Association (the two publications I listed), giving you medicine's own records of proof. But I don't think it would do me any good.

I think you guys just like to listen to yourselves talk, which is fine by me. You have to know when to pick your battles, and one trying to teach a new thing to a small handful of anonymous individuals over the Internet is of little interest to me. If you guys were the least bit serious about telling me there is no documented proof, you'd actually get away from your keyboards and look.

You fellas have fun. This "closed mind" is going shopping for a power drill.

=S2=

[skeptic]

"Quite obviously, many of them were developed for a specific purpose."

Actually that is not quite right. ALL OF THEM WERE INVENTED FOR A SPECIFIC PURPOSE. Each one was developed to prevent a specific disease. Are you going to tell people at risk for AIDS not to get vaccinated too when an effective vaccine is finally available?

There are a certain tiny percentage of people who are killed in their cars in an accident because the seat belt and shoulder harness trapped them inside. But it's minute compared to the countless lives which they saved including mine. Are you going to tell people to stop wearing their seat belts too even though it's the law?

"But to keep pumping the stuff into babies, in very large quantities straight from birth--especially when most of the diseases either don't exist or aren't a threat anymore--is nonsense."

Babies as I recall are not vaccinated at birth. It takes time for their immune systems to develop to the point where vaccination become prudent. The quantity of vaccine is adjusted to trigger the desired immune response so that when one is confronted with the real live organism, huge quantities of specific antibodies are generated to prevent the disease. The quantity necessary to assure this response was determined experimentally so to characterize it as huge is pejorative and doesn't make your case. As for these diseases being non existant, as I said, polio is making a strong resurgance in Africa because in some areas, false religious beliefs have caused large cuts in the percentage of children being vaccinated. Only when a viral disease is wiped off the face of the earth is it safe to stop vaccinating. As for bacterial diseases, it will never be safe to stop.

If we are to believe in "alternative medicine", which one should we pick and how do we make that decision. Should we believe in Christian Science which tells us not to take any medicine at all and that blood transfusions transgress the will of god? Should we believe in voodoo? Should we fabricate a golden goat and pray to Baal?

"trying to teach a new thing to a small handful of anonymous individuals over the Internet is of little interest to me."

It is you who will not be taught. You have your prejudiced view of medicine which is only held by a tiny minority of civilized people who are ridiculed as cultists because what they have to say flies in the face of hundreds of years of medical science struggling to learn the real facts and find medical treatments which really work. The only risk is that people like you will convince others to avoid life saving medical treatment. If they are adults, they risk their own lives. But when they deprive their children, at least in our society, the law forces the courts to step in and see to it that minors get the appropriate medical treatment which is available and if cultists step in the way, they risk being convicted of crimes. That's how the vast majority of people in our society see it.

[Thomas_A]

Dead children? Evidence where there is a small risk 1 per 1,000,000 to get complications due to vaccination but where there is a risk of 1 per 1000 if you do not vaccinate? Ever heard of risk analysis? Case-control studies with relevant removal of confounders?

I don't say that everything is risk-free, but to be sure there is an association with complications or increased death you need case-control studies and relevant data. I have read a lot and not seen any. Right now there is this discussion regarding breast cancer and antibiotic use (JAMA). Care to comment on the missed confounders?

MMR vaccine risk for autism was screamed out in the media and parents did not want to do that any longer (Dr Wakefield in CBS 60 min). When it was later stated that he only had an hypothesis and that in six different and independent studies, this hypothesis could not be verified. See review

"Communicating science to the public: MMR vaccine and autism", in Vaccine vol 22, issue 1 (2003).

There has been one report of allergy increase in Pertussis vaccination, but the study has flaws. In the large Pertussis vaccination program in Sweden with DTP or DTPa vaccine there was no association with allergy. If anything, there was an increase of allergy development in those children who actually had suffered active whooping cough. More studies are needed, but there is so far no evidence for association of pertussis vaccination and allergy. If anything, vaccination would prevent whooping cough and subsequent allergy development. And you know the death rate of whooping cough in children <1 year? And what happened when the vaccination ceased in UK and Scaninavia? Yes, new outbreaks...

There is no risk shown for your chemicals in vaccines. They are often trace elements, with exception for adjuvans, and there is much more intake of many of these compounds during you daily life through food and water. Please provide any evidence to your list of chemicals in vaccines rather than provide animal and LD50 experiments etc.

Since you claim that we do not make our home-work, you apparently have not done it yourself. It's shown by your list of chemicals in vaccines above.

[Monstrous Mike]

Then the solution is to institute more courts and build more prisons, not let drug dealers and repeat offenders off the hook.

Tolerance for illegal drugs are crimes against people and lead to crimes against property when drug addicts commit burglaries and murder to steal money for their insatiable obsession.

Skeptic, while I agree with your position on cables, I do not believe you apply the same logic and reason with regard to drugs.

In the last 10 years, drug use has remained level yet the "War on Drugs" has received a 50% increase in funding. You know how to do math, don't you? Here are some salient points to consider.

1. Look at the origins of drug laws. It was based on race. Opium was outlawed in the late 19th century out of fear that the Chinese who were smoking it would lure white women. Cocaine was outlawed for a fear of black men going crazy and raping white women. And outlawing in the early 20th century meant you needed a license to sell drugs. And the big powerful white men found that they could set up a little empire going after people without licenses. And the less licenses they issued, the more enforcement they needed. I cannot see how this has changed in the last 100 years.

2. Look at the hazard of drugs. Tobacco kills more people in one year than prohibited drugs have killed people in the entire 20th century.

3. Let's look at drugs and violence. There is only one drug that clearing increases aggression when consumed and that drug is alcohol. The violence and crime associated with prohibited drugs are the result of the fact that they are illegal making them very expensive and that they are generally distributed by criminal organizations. Most authorities on drug use agree that the violence associated with drugs is due to the fact that they are illegal.

4. The myth of marijuana being a gateway drug has been convincingly debunked. It simply isn't true so the use of this arguement in defending the war on drugs is patently illogical.

5. Every scholarly drug study has recommended decriminalization of drugs. Yet, this recommendation has not ever been implemented or even accepted.

6. There is no common sense reason for tobacco, alochol and prescription drugs to be legal and other drugs to be illegal other than the fact that tobacco, alcohol and prescription drugs are a huge industry and the fight against all the other drugs are another huge industry.

So why haven't things changed? The easy answer is power. Marijuana is a gateway drug in one sense. It's a gateway for law enforcement agencies to break your shield of privacy. Oh yeah, don't forget those huge "industries".

Somebody please tell me why in my own home I can pickle my liver with Jack Daniels but I can't light up a joint?

There are about 900,000 people in prison in the US for drug-related offences. If you think the solution is to build more prisons and throw more people in jail well then sir, you are nuts.

[skeptic]

" The violence and crime associated with prohibited drugs are the result of the fact that they are illegal making them very expensive and that they are generally distributed by criminal organizations. Most authorities on drug use agree that the violence associated with drugs is due to the fact that they are illegal."

Tell it to Lisa Steinberg. Oh I forgot you can't, she was killed by her cocaine crazed father who is about to be released from prison.

Tell it to the parents of kids who experimented with LSD and jumped out of an upper story window because they thought they could fly.

Tell it to the families of kids who do nothing but sit around all the time because smoking marijuana left them without the desire to make anything out of their lives.

Tell it to the victims and their families of date rape drugs.

Tell it to the children of crack addicts who never take care of them or even feed them anymore.

Tell it to the heroine addicts who spend their lives nodding off between scrambling to steal money for their next fix.

Tell it to countless movie stars, rock stars, and sports stars who threw away brilliant careers and vast fortunes because they became addicted to crack cocaine.

Tell it to the cops who pick up the shattered pieces of countless thousands of lives broken by drugs.

Monstrous, just monstrous Mike.

Go back to your "scholarly studies." You obviously know more about it than any of the victims do.

[Rockwell]

" The violence and crime associated with prohibited drugs are the result of the fact that they are illegal making them very expensive and that they are generally distributed by criminal organizations. Most authorities on drug use agree that the violence associated with drugs is due to the fact that they are illegal."

Tell it to Lisa Steinberg. Oh I forgot you can't, she was killed by her cocaine crazed father who is about to be released from prison.

Tell it to the parents of kids who experimented with LSD and jumped out of an upper story window because they thought they could fly.

Tell it to the families of kids who do nothing but sit around all the time because smoking marijuana left them without the desire to make anything out of their lives.

Tell it to the victims and their families of date rape drugs.

Tell it to the children of crack addicts who never take care of them or even feed them anymore.

Tell it to the heroine addicts who spend their lives nodding off between scrambling to steal money for their next fix.

Tell it to countless movie stars, rock stars, and sports stars who threw away brilliant careers and vast fortunes because they became addicted to crack cocaine.

Tell it to the cops who pick up the shattered pieces of countless thousands of lives broken by drugs.

Monstrous, just monstrous Mike.

Go back to your "scholarly studies." You obviously know more about it than any of the victims do.

Yes, and drugs are illegal, aren't they? Drug laws didn't stop any of that, but it did shatter the lives of countless people who didn't hurt anyone. We already have laws against neglecting your children, raping, and killing.

[Monstrous Mike]

" The violence and crime associated with prohibited drugs are the result of the fact that they are illegal making them very expensive and that they are generally distributed by criminal organizations. Most authorities on drug use agree that the violence associated with drugs is due to the fact that they are illegal."

Tell it to Lisa Steinberg. Oh I forgot you can't, she was killed by her cocaine crazed father who is about to be released from prison.

Tell it to the parents of kids who experimented with LSD and jumped out of an upper story window because they thought they could fly.

Tell it to the families of kids who do nothing but sit around all the time because smoking marijuana left them without the desire to make anything out of their lives.

Tell it to the victims and their families of date rape drugs.

Tell it to the children of crack addicts who never take care of them or even feed them anymore.

Tell it to the heroine addicts who spend their lives nodding off between scrambling to steal money for their next fix.

Tell it to countless movie stars, rock stars, and sports stars who threw away brilliant careers and vast fortunes because they became addicted to crack cocaine.

Tell it to the cops who pick up the shattered pieces of countless thousands of lives broken by drugs.

Monstrous, just monstrous Mike.

Go back to your "scholarly studies." You obviously know more about it than any of the victims do.

Take each of your stories and substitute "alcohol" for "drugs".

Are you in favour of prohibiting alcohol? If we are going to protect people from consuming mind altering substances, then we have to include alcohol, don't we?

Call me crazy but I support holding people responsible for their actions, not what kind of mood they are in.

Like I said about you and your reasonable views on cables, you seem to depart here with illogical arguements.

An analogy to what you are saying in those statements in your post could be applied to almost anything. I read of a guy who killed his wife with a butterknife. Do we need to ban butterknives? That's your logic here. Or how about the guy who read a book and then committed murders just like the story of the book. Ban the book? Again, that's your logic here.

[skeptic]

"Drug laws didn't stop any of that, but it did shatter the lives of countless people who didn't hurt anyone."

No they didn't. Those lives were shattered by the people who BROKE the laws. And now there's a better reason than ever to enforce them. The profits from some of those drugs are being used to fund the terrorists who want to destroy America.

[Thomas_A]

BTW,

Siper2, here is another for you:

"Immunization myths and realities: Responding to arguments against immunization" in J. Paediatr. Child Health (2003) 39: 487-491, and references therein.

T

[skeptic]

"Evidence where there is a small risk 1 per 1,000,000 to get complications due to vaccination but where there is a risk of 1 per 1000 if you do not vaccinate?"

How many people died in the influenza epidemic of 1918 before we had flu shots to prevent it and modern medicines available to treat those who caught it? It was a disaster. What about all of the cholera and typhoid epidemics througout history? Anybody remember "the black plague?" At one point, one epidemic of bubonic plague wiped out one quarter of Europe. Where was your herbal medicine then? But it's easy pickins as I understand it...for penicillin and other antibiotics. Herbal medicines and chiropractic are worthless against it. Which would YOU choose for your child Siper?

[skeptic]

Here are some numbers from the 1918 influenza pandemic;

"The first cases of the influenza epidemic in Britain appeared in Glasgow in May, 1918. It soon spread to other towns and cities and during the next few months the virus killed 228,000 people in Britain. This was the highest mortality rate for any epidemic since the outbreak of cholera in 1849.

In Britain desperate methods were used to prevent the spread of the disease. Streets were sprayed with chemicals and people started wearing anti-germ masks. Some factories changed their no-smoking rules under the mistaken impression that tobacco fumes could kill the virus. Others believed that eating plenty of porridge would protect you from this killer disease. However, despite valiant attempts, all treatments devised to cope with this new strain of influenza were completely ineffectual.

The USA was also very badly affected by the virus. By September a particularly virulent strain began to sweep through the country. By early December about 450,000 Americans had died of the disease.

The country that suffered most was India. The first cases appeared in Bombay in June 1918. The following month deaths were being reported in Karachi and Madras. With large numbers of India's doctors serving with the British Army the country was unable to cope with the epidemic. Some historians claim that between June 1918 and July 1919 over 16,000,000 people in India died of the virus.

It has been estimated that throughout the world over 70 million people died of the influenza pandemic. In India alone, more people died of influenza than were killed all over the world during the entire First World War."

Flu vaccine would have prevented all of it. How many people did you say died from flu vaccine Siper? I repeat my previous question to you Siper, do you have a screw loose in your brain?

BTW, this info came from;

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWinfluenzia.htm

[pctower]

But counselor, your opinion runs contrary to the current views mainstream America which is fed up with crime and criminals and is tired of having appologists find ways to get the criminals off so they can go out and commit more mayhem and destroy more lives. Your way has been tried and failed. Face it Tower, the philosophy of flower child generation of the 1960s is finished forever. You can put away your sandals and your tie dyes. Whatever the reason for their anti social behavior, America wants criminals off the streets.

You might want to look at:

http://www.publicagenda.org/issues/f...=crime&list=21

and:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts4.html

http://www.sentencingproject.org/pdfs/1005.pdf

http://www.gallup.com/content/default.aspx?ci=12055

http://pollingreport.com/prioriti.htm

http://www.cfpa.org/issues/substanceabuse/index.cfm

http://www.swheath.com/doc/polsc270treatment.htm

http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/...sht/treatment/

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/...sicfax.htm#q16

Happy reading!

[Thomas_A]

Cited from

http://www.immunisation.org.uk/reasons.html

t gives them the best chance of not catching certain infectious childhood diseases.


These diseases can have dangerous complications and can prove fatal, even with modern medical care.


Combined with improvements in hygiene and nutrition, the public vaccination programmes have saved millions of children from suffering and death.


For example, in the years before the measles vaccine was introduced, an average of 250,000 cases were recorded annually in England and Wales, and 85 children died. In 1999, 2,438 cases were recorded and two people died, both from the later effects of the disease caught in the 1980s or before.

[skeptic]

Safe and effective are the criteria the FDA uses for approval of drugs and other medical treatment in the USA. Herbs and vitamins as treatment for disease are not effective and some of them are unsafe. Despite the talk radio programs advocating them for the treatment of disease, they very carefully state a disclaimer saying that the program does not give medical advice and no health benefits are actually claimed. The herb and vitamin industry get around the approved drug laws because they are classified as food or food supliments and therefore not subject to the same restrictions as medicines.

It appears that there may soon be a SARS vaccine. Siper, will you tell the Chinese government not to use it. China practically invented herbal medicine. Would they listen to you? What do you think?

[Monstrous Mike]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts4.html
Happy reading!

Who is Jeremy Bentham? Yikes! As a side note on the comments about prosecutorial ethics, the name Kenneth Star comes to mind.

[pctower]

Who is Jeremy Bentham? Yikes! As a side note on the comments about prosecutorial ethics, the name Kenneth Star comes to mind.

Ken Star? No, not even close:

http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/b/bentham.htm

[mtrycraft]

BTW,

Siper2, here is another for you:

"Immunization myths and realities: Responding to arguments against immunization" in J. Paediatr. Child Health (2003) 39: 487-491, and references therein.

T

But that is not published by a chiro journal, biased to protect the industry and the medical profession.

Fact? You want facts to get in the way?

[mtrycraft]

Dead children? Evidence where there is a small risk 1 per 1,000,000 to get complications due to vaccination but where there is a risk of 1 per 1000 if you do not vaccinate? Ever heard of risk analysis? Case-control studies with relevant removal of confounders?

I don't say that everything is risk-free, but to be sure there is an association with complications or increased death you need case-control studies and relevant data. I have read a lot and not seen any. Right now there is this discussion regarding breast cancer and antibiotic use (JAMA). Care to comment on the missed confounders?

MMR vaccine risk for autism was screamed out in the media and parents did not want to do that any longer (Dr Wakefield in CBS 60 min). When it was later stated that he only had an hypothesis and that in six different and independent studies, this hypothesis could not be verified. See review

"Communicating science to the public: MMR vaccine and autism", in Vaccine vol 22, issue 1 (2003).

There has been one report of allergy increase in Pertussis vaccination, but the study has flaws. In the large Pertussis vaccination program in Sweden with DTP or DTPa vaccine there was no association with allergy. If anything, there was an increase of allergy development in those children who actually had suffered active whooping cough. More studies are needed, but there is so far no evidence for association of pertussis vaccination and allergy. If anything, vaccination would prevent whooping cough and subsequent allergy development. And you know the death rate of whooping cough in children <1 year? And what happened when the vaccination ceased in UK and Scaninavia? Yes, new outbreaks...

There is no risk shown for your chemicals in vaccines. They are often trace elements, with exception for adjuvans, and there is much more intake of many of these compounds during you daily life through food and water. Please provide any evidence to your list of chemicals in vaccines rather than provide animal and LD50 experiments etc.

Since you claim that we do not make our home-work, you apparently have not done it yourself. It's shown by your list of chemicals in vaccines above.

I wonder what he has to say about peanuts killing people? Or making them so sick that they need emergency care? Or mangos?, Or tomatoes for some friends of mine? Or, any number of other foods.

I wonder if the chiro industry has ever cured anything on the planet? Wiped out any desease? Extended anyones longevity? Cured anything?
For that matter, any alternative medicine or treatments?

Unfortunately there are enough gullible people that will follow this sirt of dangerous nonsense to cause major consequences for others as the resurgence of wiped out desease comes back.