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  1. #1
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    Where does this information come from?

    To those of you who come here with statements of how speaker wires dont matter to the point where 12 Gauge lamp cable would work as well as anything else, or evne to those who say that $500 interconnects can transfer signals with more accuracy.. Is there actually a source for this information? I'm looking into cables righ tnow and would like to make an educated decision as I'm sure you all can justify having done yourself. The problem is I can't find statistics either proving or disproving that spending $100 for interconnects could be worth my time. Any help would really help clear this fuzzy issue for me and probably a few other casual readers who want to know where these statements come from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aric M L
    To those of you who come here with statements of how speaker wires dont matter to the point where 12 Gauge lamp cable would work as well as anything else, or evne to those who say that $500 interconnects can transfer signals with more accuracy.. Is there actually a source for this information? I'm looking into cables righ tnow and would like to make an educated decision as I'm sure you all can justify having done yourself. The problem is I can't find statistics either proving or disproving that spending $100 for interconnects could be worth my time. Any help would really help clear this fuzzy issue for me and probably a few other casual readers who want to know where these statements come from.
    As I understand it, there are no statistics that prove or disprove the existence of sonic differences among cables. If you want to know if there are cables that sound better than lamp cord, I'd advise that you audition some. If you want statistics and the scientific point of view, you might visit The Audio Lab forum on this site and read some of the top 3-4 posts. The scientific/objectivist crowd believes that the evidence against cable sonics is overwhelming while the subjectivist/observationalist crowd trusts their senses. It's up to you as to which argument is more convincing.

  3. #3
    Cylon Centurian Rycher's Avatar
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    It's like visiting several churches of different religions. They will ALL try to sell you on their God. In the end you have to see which church is better for you based on what they do for you. Just try some out, talk to some freinds with similar systems. I believe there are differences.
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    Be careful, this is one of the most intense and bitter debates in the audio world.
    Yes, people fail 100% of the time to consistenly demonstrate that they can hear audible differences between cables.
    Yes, these tests are not conclusive or all encompassing in determining that these differences don't exist, and are flawed in many ways.

    I think the bigger point here is what is the most effective allocation of your financial resources. Pretty much everyone I know will put cables dead last when building a system...that should tell you something.

  5. #5
    Cylon Centurian Rycher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Be careful, this is one of the most intense and bitter debates in the audio world.

    Next to religion. Even though you want to kill some people in the audio world, it's safe to say it only happens in the religious world.


    Yes, people fail 100% of the time to consistenly demonstrate that they can hear audible differences between cables.

    People also fail to prove there is a Diety.


    Yes, these tests are not conclusive or all encompassing in determining that these differences don't exist, and are flawed in many ways.

    So are peoples beliefs in their religion of choice.


    I think the bigger point here is what is the most effective allocation of your financial resources.

    Exactly. It's my money. If I want to buy an expensive cable, that's my call and I should'nt be chastised for it.


    Pretty much everyone I know will put cables dead last when building a system...that should tell you something.


    The people I know put just an importance on cables as anything else in their system. Maybe THAT should tell you something.


    Anyway, that's just one guys opinion.
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  6. #6
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Rycher, I put importance on cables too, my point is to not try buying a $500 cable to fix or supplement $500 speakers, unless you're sure that will sound better than any other use of $1000...it's just not effective...They don't by nature contribute as much to the sound, though shouldn't be neglected.

    As for your comments about religion and dieties...not sure what blind faith has to do with a item we actually CAN physically touch, see, and hear and measure. I trust when people tell me they hear a difference, that they do in fact hear it, not that they blindly believe that difference exists and trick themselves into hearing it. If they then fail to demonstrate this, then there's either a flaw in the test (psychologist will argue this about DBT's) or the differences are perhaps very small and indistinguishable.
    But there is a some validity when tests of other equipment in the chain DO present valid, consistent results. Why not cables? What's so special about them?

  7. #7
    Cylon Centurian Rycher's Avatar
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    You are correct. My point about religion was to compare most people's "blind faith" in whether or not cables make a difference. People can't prove there is a God, yet they constantly swear that he makes a difference in their lives. Maybe there is an as of yet unfound "nugget" proving that God/cables do make a difference (I know it is totally and completely hilarious to compare audio cables to God, but it's more the "scientificly proven facts" I am relaying here). I really think there is a part of human hearing that is yet to be founded by scientific facts. Spending upwards of $100.00 in cables, IMO, IS a waste of money - none the less you should not neglect cables for the fact that there are no proven studies indicating they make no difference. There are, after all, a lot of people who do hear a difference.
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  8. #8
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    "The problem is..."

    "...I can't find statistics either proving or disproving that spending $100 for interconnects could be worth my time."

    Well, you probably won't...that is until jneutron reveals all, sometime in the future...

    Insofar as "proof" is concerned, as it stands now, and to my best understanding, there is no real measurable or quantifiable, repeatable tests results that would indicate there is any difference between wires of similar length and gauge...there are however claims, unsolicited testimonials and a truckload of "hype" surrounding what is a relatively recent "cottage industry"...Everything from the color and/or composition of dielectric materials to the atomic structure of the particular choice of metal in the conductors is ripe for the ad copy...and my forever, all-time fave: some oblique reference to NASA and the space program.

    That isn't to say there cannot be a difference between wires, but is that difference actually an "improvement" or simply a difference...That seems to be a determination best left to the individual who'll be payin' the freight. One probably can, through repeated trial and error, arrive at a combination of wires and active components that might deliver sonic Nirvana...however the results will be very specific and be dependent on how the gear interfaces electrically, the quality of the source material and the ears of listener who has done all the legwork...I might walk into someones listening room and decides it sounds like cr@p! I don't have your hardware, your software, your acoustic environment or most importatntly, your ears.

    Wire distributors( I use that word because it seems few actually manufacture much of anything they sell) buy off-the-shelf wire and connectors in such quantity, the actual mfrs. will print those distributors names on the hardware, and it can be misleading to some; they don't provide real specs or measurements beyond what the mfr. specs them out as. And I apologize to those who might think otherwise, but providing resistance and capacitance numbers consisting of a decimal point followed by any number of zeros, per foot, is really quite meaningless...as is the fact that the signal travels at somewhere around the speed of light. Just more hype IMHO. These websites are the worst place for gleaning any real info.

    Disproof? No one can disprove what someone else claims to hear...BUT...dare I say it out side the confines of the "lab"...there are test procedures currently in use that could, if administered properly, end the debate...The wire folks won't do it...no one wants to kill the "golden goose"...they can't afford to...The objectivists may try on occasion...but since most(if not all) end with null results, those tests are deemed inadequate or worse by some, no matter how compelling proponents may find them.

    Some advice culled from the posts of the more reasonable among after-market advocates follows: ...you probably won't hear much of anything with less than SOTA gear...what you will hear will be subtle at best...price is no barometer of performance...DIY outperforms most hi-zoot wiring...if it makes everything sound good, there is something wrong...and... you will get better results from matching your equipment properly and paying attention to your listening environment than you will from any wire...


    Back to your question about a source for info...here at AR is probably as good as any for a sort of balance of opinion...Audioholics tends to present more of the objective viewpoint and AA...well, what can one say about AA that hasn't already been said...suffice it to say they are ultra-subjectve...The informatinal links at each of these sites pretty much reflects that same degree of balance.

    You can spend your time auditioning wires and components in an effort to get the nth degree of playback satisfaction or you can simply listen to the music...I prefer the latter.

    So, unfortunately, you are pretty much left to your own devices...stick with decent OEM wire and/or reasonably priced, well-made, generic stuff or go for the more expensive stuff...If you are of a mind and ability to do so, try some of the DIY recipes...or not.

    jimHJJ(...save your money, buy more music...)

  9. #9
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    [QUOTE=Resident Loser
    You can spend your time auditioning wires and components in an effort to get the nth degree of playback satisfaction or you can simply listen to the music...I prefer the latter. )[/QUOTE]

    Or... you can do both. I prefer doing the former so I can appreciate more the latter. I do agree the differences are subtle. But I also feel they are musically significant.

  10. #10
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    I get that people have beliefs about what their wires do or do not accomplish. And by the posts here, no one is really likely to give room on it. But so are there no actual sources to find the test data that "scientifically" more expensive cables can make a true difference in my audio system? I'm a graphs guy too, a graph or table would be nice too

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aric M L
    I get that people have beliefs about what their wires do or do not accomplish. And by the posts here, no one is really likely to give room on it. But so are there no actual sources to find the test data that "scientifically" more expensive cables can make a true difference in my audio system? I'm a graphs guy too, a graph or table would be nice too
    Audioholics has measured some speaker cables. Here's a link to their cable section:

    http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...les/cables.htm

    They do not give any actual audibility data but one can compare it with information available on the ABX site. The ABX site shows the results of a few double blind tests. The first is for the matching criteria. If the difference is above the appropriate curves, then the differences should be audible under some circumstances. If they are below the curves, there is no guarantee that the difference is inaudible, and some maintain the curves are not stringent enough. However, appropriate cables are accurate enough to be well below the curves as shown on the ABX site..

    http://www.pcavtech.com/abx/abx_crit.htm

    The following link shows the results of some DBTs.

    http://www.pcavtech.com/abx/abx_data.htm
    Last edited by Pat D; 02-05-2005 at 09:47 AM.
    "Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
    ------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.

  12. #12
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aric M L
    But so are there no actual sources to find the test data that "scientifically" more expensive cables can make a true difference in my audio system? I'm a graphs guy too, a graph or table would be nice too
    Nor will you find such available for any other audio component. Yes, you'll find tons of graphs, waterfall plots, square wave responses, etc., but none of those will directly translate to what you hear with any of them. There are quite a few amplifiers from Crown to Pass Labs with poorer distortion figures than their predecessors, yet sound better.

    I quickly learned that the McIntosh clinic presentation of a distortion graph of my AR amplifier back in '72 was worthless.

    rw

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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Nor will you find such available for any other audio component. Yes, you'll find tons of graphs, waterfall plots, square wave responses, etc., but none of those will directly translate to what you hear with any of them. There are quite a few amplifiers from Crown to Pass Labs with poorer distortion figures than their predecessors, yet sound better.

    I quickly learned that the McIntosh clinic presentation of a distortion graph of my AR amplifier back in '72 was worthless.

    rw
    I'd like to see a waterfall plot for interconnects and speaker cables! I've seen them for speakers, of course.

    I'll turn a superaudiophile type argument back on you: just because you can't get anything out of a good set of measurements doesn't mean nobody else can.
    "Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
    ------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.

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    Im going to have to agree, I understand seeing graphs is not hearing cables, but I think it would guide me to avoid the placebo effect. If cables had the exact same specifications, I'd be a bit skeptical as to whether or not I was actually hearing a difference, or just wanting to.

  15. #15
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat D
    I'd like to see a waterfall plot for interconnects and speaker cables! I've seen them for speakers, of course.

    I'll turn a superaudiophile type argument back on you: just because you can't get anything out of a good set of measurements doesn't mean nobody else can.
    What is your analysis of these plots for speaker "A" and speaker "B" ?



    rw

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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    What is your analysis of these plots for speaker "A" and speaker "B" ?



    rw
    Even the guy who makes these particular measurements doesn't usually say anything much about them in his reviews. As Atkinson says, the resonant decays don't usually cause much problem in most speakers. "However, loudspeakers with such audible resonant problems appear to be very rare these days."

    http://www.stereophile.com/reference/100/index5.html

    This measurement doesn't seem to work very well for electrostatic loudspeakers and other panel speakers, which seem to look pretty bad on it even though they actually sound pretty good..

    In Stereophile, I look primarily at the impedance, sensitivity, frequency response and dispersion. Soundstage also measures distortion.

    Speaker A seems to have a much more resonance in the midrange since the lines fall off considerably slower (lines are closer together). This may indicate there is some muddiness in the midrange--which doesn't look very flat anyway.

    The peakiness between 16-17 kHz is high enough that it shouldn't be a problem.

    Speaker B shows the midrange sound decays more rapidly, which is a plus. The chief thing is that it appears to have a much flatter frequency response, though, and that is better seen in other graphs.

    My Stratus Minis beat both of them in this sort of measurement.
    "Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
    ------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.

  17. #17
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat D
    Even the guy who makes these particular measurements doesn't usually say anything much about them in his reviews.
    My point exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pat D
    This measurement doesn't seem to work very well for electrostatic loudspeakers and other panel speakers, which seem to look pretty bad on it even though they actually sound pretty good.
    Yet another reason to disregard these measurements. BTW, the top trace is the Innersound Kaya and the lower trace the Polk Rti-4.

    rw

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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    My point exactly.


    Yet another reason to disregard these measurements. BTW, the top trace is the Innersound Kaya and the lower trace the Polk Rti-4.

    rw
    Strange. If the measurements are good, you disregard them! Wouldn't you rather know that when they are good enough to not show a problem? Or do you only look for problems? But of course, those measurements CAN show problems, and Atkinson provides on as an example in the link I provided:

    http://www.stereophile.com/reference/100/index5.html

    The Innersound Kaya seems to look much cleaner in the higher end than a number of electrostats, but this is probably partially because its frequency response is rather down in level above 2 kHz so some decay elements are below the graph. The Quad ESL-989 does quite well, too, but it looks worse because it does not have a reduced output above 2 kHz, so a lot of the decay elements are not below the graph. Probably more importantly, it has very good horizontal dispersion up to about 8 kHz as indicated in another graph.

    I have never heard the Innersound products. It is quite possible I would like them. However, so far the only electrostats I have really liked are the Quads (for example, I heard some Acoustats years ago and didn't like them as well as my old Kefs), and they don't work well in a lot of rooms and for every application, as you well know. Hence, my very good forward radiating speakers.

    The speaker measurements shown in consumer magazines are not complete enough to define the sound, even for experts, which I am not, but they can show a number of important things about the sound. They don't have to be comprehensive to be useful.
    "Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
    ------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.

  19. #19
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    I think the most inportant thing in cables and wires is to get the right gauge speaker wire. After that i'm just look'n for some good solid cables.
    Look & Listen

  20. #20
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat D
    Strange. If the measurements are good, you disregard them! Wouldn't you rather know that when they are good enough to not show a problem? Or do you only look for problems?
    I disregard them especially if they are good because they are unable to convey any useful information. Can I interest you in a great measuring (yet dreadful sounding) Crown IC-150 preamp?


    Quote Originally Posted by Pat D
    But of course, those measurements CAN show problems, and Atkinson provides on as an example in the link I provided:
    Which he said to be both rare and in this case easily audible with a high frequency edge. That's why I consider listening tests more important. There is a diference between information and knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pat D
    The speaker measurements shown in consumer magazines are not complete enough to define the sound, even for experts, which I am not, but they can show a number of important things about the sound. They don't have to be comprehensive to be useful.
    The only data I find useful is the impedance plot to help determine amplifier compatibility. Speakers with roller coaster curves need amps with low source impedance and don't mate well with tubes - so I avoid them.

    rw

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aric M L
    To those of you who come here with statements of how speaker wires dont matter to the point where 12 Gauge lamp cable would work as well as anything else, or evne to those who say that $500 interconnects can transfer signals with more accuracy.. Is there actually a source for this information? I'm looking into cables righ tnow and would like to make an educated decision as I'm sure you all can justify having done yourself. The problem is I can't find statistics either proving or disproving that spending $100 for interconnects could be worth my time. Any help would really help clear this fuzzy issue for me and probably a few other casual readers who want to know where these statements come from.
    Here another link for consideration from the website of Roger Russell, former Director of Acoustic Research at McIntosh:

    http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    I disregard them especially if they are good because they are unable to convey any useful information. Can I interest you in a great measuring (yet dreadful sounding) Crown IC-150 preamp?



    Which he said to be both rare and in this case easily audible with a high frequency edge. That's why I consider listening tests more important. There is a diference between information and knowledge.


    The only data I find useful is the impedance plot to help determine amplifier compatibility. Speakers with roller coaster curves need amps with low source impedance and don't mate well with tubes - so I avoid them.

    rw
    Yes indeed, the impedance plot and the voltage sensitivity are useful to judge compatibility.

    On the other hand, the frequency response plots and different horizontal and vertical angles are also very useful to me. These definitely can indicate differences in the sound.

    The distortion plots done at the NRC for Soundstage are also useful, and of course, they do impedance and electrical phase plots as well as frequency response and horizontal dispersion, as in a rather less sophisticated fashion, Audio Ideas Guide.

    If the Crown amp sounds dreadful, I have no doubt that the reasons will show up in measurements. BHK Labs for Soundstage or the Stereophile measurements would probably be sufficient.
    "Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
    ------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by shokhead
    I think the most inportant thing in cables and wires is to get the right gauge speaker wire. After that i'm just look'n for some good solid cables.
    That's as close to proven as one is likely to get in this life. I prefer flexible cables to solid myself!
    "Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
    ------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.

  24. #24
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lensman
    Here another link for consideration from the website of Roger Russell, former Director of Acoustic Research at McIntosh:
    Completely devoid, of course, of any testing substantiation. How were they tested? Using what equipment? Test tones or music? Who participated? Or making earthshattering claims like the 1983 Stereo Review Dares to Tell the Truth reference claiming 16 gauge lamp cord is better than 24 gauge lampcord. Indeed, if you are using 24 gauge lampcord, then high end cables are most definitely not for you. Most of references are quite dated, except for the 2001 Sound and Visions addition. I particularly enjoy that one's informative conclusion:

    12 gauge should be heavy enough for any reasonable domestic application.

    rw

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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Completely devoid, of course, of any testing substantiation. How were they tested? Using what equipment? Test tones or music? Who participated? Or making earthshattering claims like the 1983 Stereo Review Dares to Tell the Truth reference claiming 16 gauge lamp cord is better than 24 gauge lampcord. Indeed, if you are using 24 gauge lampcord, then high end cables are most definitely not for you. Most of references are quite dated, except for the 2001 Sound and Visions addition. I particularly enjoy that one's informative conclusion:

    12 gauge should be heavy enough for any reasonable domestic application.

    rw
    I make no judgement call on the issue, but offer the link as another point of view from someone who can claim experience in the area. Like you, I could want for more specifics on the precise testing method employed and the individuals who participated. However, as one who has conducted group marketing studies, it is both believable and understandable that a company like McIntosh would have an interest in answering the question to their own satisfaction but not to anyone else's. It would not benefit them at all to polarize their potential customers for an against them. Thus the testing is likely done under less than controlled conditions and be subject to close scrutiny.

    He does, however, make some statements that I think people on both sides of the issue would generally agree upon:

    Reducing wire resistance is a critical factor in improving sound through wiring.

    Oxygen-free wire has less resistance because the impurity, iron, is removed
    in the process.

    Silver wire has less resistance than copper wire.

    Reducing the resistance "too low" does not diminish sound quality.

    Cheap wire can increase resistance due to corrsion.

    What places him with the scientific/objectivist crowd (aside from all the stuff at the end) is his statements that:

    Lowering resistance of wire can done by increasing the gauge of cheap wire
    instead of buying wire made from more expensive materials.

    Beyond a certain amount of resistence reduction, there is no audible
    difference in sound.

    However, he appears to provide the subjectivist/observationalist crowd with some justification for their views with his points that:

    The impedance of most speaker systems is not constant with frequency.

    Systems with different impedance fluctuations require wire with different resistance.

    High-end equipment can have impedance values that vary considerably from the
    norm (such as the 4 ohm speaker he mentioned).

    This, of course, excludes justifying people with low or mid-grade level equipment who claim advantage from expensive cabling, but I've seen many in the subjectivist/observationalist crowd that do that as well.

    I'll be the first to state I'm no electrical engineer. So I may be way off base, but my interpretation of all this seems to indicate:

    Most average systems would not gain benefits from expensive wiring because the amps and speakers run impedance ranges that lie within more standard norms for typical consumer electrical equipment. Though there may be impedance variances from component to component, none are sufficiently large that they could not be handled with typical zip cord of reasonable thickness.

    High-end equipment has impedance values that may vary considerably from the norm, requiring wire with different resistance values. So it is conceivable that the electrical load on certain combinations of speakers and amps could be such that wire of unusually low resistance could be required to fully handle the impedance variances.

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