Where does this information come from?

[E-Stat]

My preference is to consult those who have no financial interests in my ultimate decision. Would you expect an unbiased answer from a Chevy dealer if you were to ask him whether you should buy a new Chevy or a new Toyota?

Agreed. I find that I get a far more informative analysis by automotive reviewers such as those found in Car & Driver, Road & Track, and Automobile. These guys have had the opportunity to drive everything from a Yugo to a Ferrari Enzo and understand the differences from an experiential standpoint. No theory required. An unlike their audio counterparts at The Absolute Sound and Stereophile, they are not criticized for their impressions. I don't understand the difference.

Here is an easy read to get you started:
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Easy to read but dated and focused on comparisons between Yugos and Toyotas (24 gauge zip vs 12 gauge zip).

rw

[Mash]

Ah, Mr. E-Stat
It is so nice to merit your attention.

I would like to thank theaudiohobby for bringing “The Art of Electronics” by Horowitz and Hill to our attention. I ordered my copy yesterday. The readers’ reviews on both Amazon and Bookpool were very, very favorable.

But really, Mr. E-Stat, I am a wee bit curious about your motivations. Did you really wish to spread truth and light? Or are you spreading something else?

First, Car & Driver, Road & Track, and Automobile are rather inane publications. I am confident you will learn nothing from reading them, although they may offer you vicarious life experiences. The notion that “These guys have had the opportunity to drive everything from a Yugo to a Ferrari Enzo and understand the differences from an experiential standpoint.” has bearing on what? Nothing that seems important to me. And what about your comment “No theory required.” Are you anti-education, Mr. E-Stat? Theory is the basis of education and learning, Mr. E-Stat.

The real plum is your denigrating Mr. Russell’s site with “Easy to read but dated and focused on comparisons between Yugos and Toyotas (24 gauge zip vs 12 gauge zip).” You would seem to imply Toyotas are semi-crap while you lust after a Ferrari, Mr. E-Stat? Perhaps you could stand to learn a few things?

Toyota Motors is able to control manufacturing processes tightly enough to produce very fine assembly fits that other manufacturers can only dream about. The result is that Toyota eliminates pounding wear. Also when a process does begin to come out of tolerance at Toyota, Toyota can stop that process before any parts are made that would not meet their full quality standards. You see, Shift Happens! in any on-going process. So while the Ferrari engine must be rebuilt after 40,000 miles, any reasonably maintained Toyota engine is capable of being operated 300,000 miles or more. The interesting detail is that the Ferrari costs 28X what the Toyota costs- not an impressive cost-benefit result!

And yes, Mr. E-Stat, I am qualified to comment on statistical tolerance control of assemblies and so forth. It was one of my sidelines, and thousands of designers and engineers today use the 1-D statistical program I had spearheaded. It is too bad that I did not have the time to complete the 3-D UG-based statistical assembly program I was spearheading. I had to let someone else lead that because I had two major projects going, a simple-cycle plant with up to 50% efficiency that could be built in 4 months and I also had to support a combined cycle plant offering 60% efficiency. The first of these babies was running in a $1.7 billion plant. I had no time to fantasize with Car & Driver, Road & Track, and Automobile.

Why do you read Mr. Russell's information as a comparison of 24AWG to 12AWG? If you would be kind enough to go back and carefully REread the information, you might discover that Mr. Russell was testing 24AWG to prove his theory about how one selects wire size based on the required wire length and the particular speaker’s impedance.

Besides, why should WE consider Mr. Russell’s information dated? What EE theories do you use for declaring that information dated? Oh, I’m sorry, I forgot- you would seem to hold “Theory” in contempt.

[E-Stat]

The notion that “These guys have had the opportunity to drive everything from a Yugo to a Ferrari Enzo and understand the differences from an experiential standpoint.” has bearing on what?

Understanding that which transcends simple numeric analysis. That's why F1 engineers tune their 4 G cars based upon driver feedback given their basic design work only carries them so far.

You would seem to imply Toyotas are semi-crap while you lust after a Ferrari, Mr. E-Stat? Perhaps you could stand to learn a few things?

If you equate the performance of a Corolla with a Modena, then there is nothing I can teach you. My S2000, however, does a fair job of duplicating the F360's handling. Basic cornering and acceleration numbers are similar.

Toyota Motors is able to control manufacturing processes...

Do you have a point relevant to performance?

Why do you read Mr. Russell's information as a comparison of 24AWG to 12AWG?

Because there were quite a few folks here and elsewhere who thought these "tests" offered proof concerning all audio cables. Obviously, their limited scope does not.

...you would seem to hold “Theory” in contempt.

Theory is a great place to start.

rw

[Mash]

Mr. E-Stat
Your posts simply mystify me.

Why is it you seem to have the crushing need to always introduce automotive themes into these discussions, such as when you use Yugos and Toyotas to represent 24AWG versus 12 AWG wires? Why then do you balk when someone responds in keeping with what you have started? This does not seem logical to me.

You suggest you might be able to teach me something (about cars? ) because your "S2000, however, does a fair job of duplicating the F360's handling" Well, so what? Dude, I modded a Mazda RX4 Wagon years ago to be a Mazda RX4 NQS (Not Quite Stock) and I routinly shut down BMW's with it. You see, I could drive a rubber-tired bike on the ice & snow without falling, so a 4-wheeled auto was a piece of cake. None of the BMW drivers were all that good- a bunch of Walter Mittys, as it were. Tell me not how fantastic your car is supposed to be, but rather, how fantastic you are.

My suggestion is that If you would be kind enough to go back and carefully REread the information in http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm, you might discover that Mr. Russell was testing 24AWG to prove his theory about how one selects wire size based on the required wire length and the particular speaker's impedance. Really, do try that.

[E-Stat]

Why is it you seem to have the crushing need to always introduce automotive themes into these discussions

Actually, you introduced the theme at post #50 and I replied in kind.

Tell me not how fantastic your car is supposed to be, but rather, how fantastic you are.

My driving acumen is irrelevant to the discussion of the comparative performance between a Corolla and a Modena. I trust your wagon was superior to a Corolla.

...go back and carefully REread the information...

Ok fine.

you might discover that Mr. Russell was testing 24AWG to prove his theory about how one selects wire size based on the required wire length and the particular speaker's impedance. Really, do try that.

There are no tests conducted by Russell "supporting his theories" found on that link. All one finds of his is a chart based solely on DC resistance measurements not varying by more than 5% and commentary. He used a calculator.

The tests referenced were conducted by Gordon Gow, Edgar Villchur, Lawrence Greenhill, R.A. Greiner. et.al. I refer to the gripping 1983 test entitled Stereo Review Dares to Tell the Truth. Here, Greenhill compared 24 gauge zip to 12 and 16 gauge zip. After 50 hours of listening (what a glutton for punishment), the conclusion was you could hear the difference between either the 12 or 16 gauge zip vs. 24 gauge zip. Yawn.

Naturally, there is zero discussion whatsoever of any kind concerning the test conditions, equipment used, nor content.

rw

[Mash]

Mr. E-Stat

I really had to ponder this portion of your response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mash
Toyota Motors is able to control manufacturing processes...

E-Stat’s question: “Do you have a point relevant to performance?”

I was shocked, Mr. E-Stat! I was simply shocked about how this response is so very much at odds the sophisticated and knowledgeable E-Stat online persona.

But because I am a wonderful person, I will endeavor to enlighten you:

1. The only “point relevant to performance” is how do you confirm the performance actually offered by the specific production unit that YOU have bought?

2. Variation occurs naturally in our world and variation is inherent in any manufacturing process. Variation is inversely related to the Sigma level the manufacturer can maintain in any particular manufacturing process. The Sigma Level describes how well the various “opportunities for defects” have been controlled.

3. The specific automobile, for example, that your buddies at Car & Driver, Road & Track, or Automobile happen to have tested is “representative” of the specific unit you “might” purchase, but the auto you really purchase depends on how tightly the manufacturer is able to control his unit to unit production variation in his manufacturing process, and this is defined as the process Sigma level that the manufacturer can maintain.

4. If, say, an auto manufacturer has a 2.5 Sigma process and you actually get a unit with –5 Sigma traits in your personal CTQ’s [that is “Critical to Quality”, Dude], you are NOT getting a unit that has CTQ’s equivalent to those in the auto your buddies at Car & Driver, Road & Track, or Automobile happen to have actually tested.

5. If you don’t really have the ability to operate the auto in question “as required” to verify the actual quality of your CTQ’s, you will never know what automobile you really bought anyway, will you? Hence, in this case, your “driving acumen” becomes key to determining the actual performance of the auto that YOU have bought.

6. Now, your sophisticated and knowledgeable online persona suggests that you are seeking to optimize audible, but quite subtle, wire traits in your meticulous wire quests.

7. But you seem quite unaware how the variation in a wire manufacturer’s processes could cause two specimens of supposedly identical speaker wires, or I/C, to actually be audibly different in your sophisticated listening tests.

8. You as a Sophisticated Audiophile have many areas of concern when evaluating a wire, such as the dielectric performance and the purity of the wire’s metal where opportunities would be characterized on a per-inch or per-cm basis.

9. The design philosophy of the wire might be considered as a constant among individual wire samples, but one must also be vigilant for variation in how the design philosophy was actually completed in each specimen.

10. In fact, you have likely never thought to audition each new wire sample separately. You probably blindly test them as a pair…. Well, not blindly, since you seem to abhor DBT.

11. Therefore, ‘new’ wire A-left could be “better” than ‘your old’ wire B-left when evaluated in the left channel comparison, while ‘new’ wire A-right could be worse than ‘your old’ wire B-right when evaluated in the right channel comparison.

12. In other words, to optimize these quite subtle wire traits in your system to satisfy your meticulous wire quest, you might have to replace your old wire B-left in the left channel with new wire A-left, while you would retain your old wire B-right in the right channel and return to the dealer the new wire A-right that was an unsatisfactory replacement in the right channel. Whew! You are going to have some long days, Dude.


I have no ill feelings whatsoever toward people who purchase products they lack the ability to really utilize. They pay the depreciation and then I get something nice at a very favorable price:

1. I bought a big-block-powered boat from a gentleman who did not use the power trim when we went out for a sea trial and he did not know the steering wheel was adjustable similar to the steering wheels one finds on better autos.

2. He never went over 40, and the boat was very under-propped.

3. He had skis in the ski locker, but I have no idea how someone could ski behind those open pipes.

4. The stump-pulling under-propping would pose a real risk to any skier’s arms.

5. I did conclude that his wife did NOT like that boat. So I got a really nice used boat with really low hours.

6. A little engine work including adding Captain’s Call, and changing to higher-pitched offshore propping, gave us a nice large-lake rocket.

7. My wife claims I like it because it takes me back to my flying days. She is right.

[thepogue]

how exhilarating....

I think this thread has to be nominated for the most BS in a single post for '05 (so far)...

let me know when it's time to cast me vote...I'll be first in line!!

whew...(what a hobby)

Peace-Out, Pogue

[E-Stat]

I really had to ponder this portion of your response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mash
Toyota Motors is able to control manufacturing processes...

E-Stat's question: "Do you have a point relevant to performance?"

You're still pondering post #53?

But because I am a wonderful person, I will endeavor to enlighten you:

yada, yada, yada, yada.

I feel rather confident that any Modena, despite manufacturing variations, can outperform any Corolla. What do you think? BTW, I like well built vehicles, too. I have purchased Honda products exclusively for over twenty years. Today, I have three - two cars and a motorcycle.

I have no ill feelings whatsoever toward people who purchase products they lack the ability to really utilize.

Good for you. If you're referring to my wife's S2000 with the boat story, here's how the buying process went:

1. Needed replacement for wife's Prelude
2. Preludes are no longer being made
3. Wife knows I'm a Honda guy
4. Buy S2000

Subsequently, we both discover that we like having a convertible. Especially in Georgia where the weather is fair a wide range of the year. Regarding the horsepower, here's a funny story. Wife's comments in quotes.

"What does it mean to redline an engine?"

It means you run the engine RPM beyond its designed speed. With most passenger cars, it is primarily for the engine driven accessories. Why do you ask?

"Well, a Lotus tried to jump me at a light and I didn't let him. Before shifting into second, the engine hesitated for just a moment."

That was the fuel cutout kicking in around 9200 RPM. Shift a bit earlier next time, Honey. You've got all the power available at 8500.


rw