Where does this information come from?

[Aric M L]

To those of you who come here with statements of how speaker wires dont matter to the point where 12 Gauge lamp cable would work as well as anything else, or evne to those who say that $500 interconnects can transfer signals with more accuracy.. Is there actually a source for this information? I'm looking into cables righ tnow and would like to make an educated decision as I'm sure you all can justify having done yourself. The problem is I can't find statistics either proving or disproving that spending $100 for interconnects could be worth my time. Any help would really help clear this fuzzy issue for me and probably a few other casual readers who want to know where these statements come from.

[musicoverall]

To those of you who come here with statements of how speaker wires dont matter to the point where 12 Gauge lamp cable would work as well as anything else, or evne to those who say that $500 interconnects can transfer signals with more accuracy.. Is there actually a source for this information? I'm looking into cables righ tnow and would like to make an educated decision as I'm sure you all can justify having done yourself. The problem is I can't find statistics either proving or disproving that spending $100 for interconnects could be worth my time. Any help would really help clear this fuzzy issue for me and probably a few other casual readers who want to know where these statements come from.

As I understand it, there are no statistics that prove or disprove the existence of sonic differences among cables. If you want to know if there are cables that sound better than lamp cord, I'd advise that you audition some. If you want statistics and the scientific point of view, you might visit The Audio Lab forum on this site and read some of the top 3-4 posts. The scientific/objectivist crowd believes that the evidence against cable sonics is overwhelming while the subjectivist/observationalist crowd trusts their senses. It's up to you as to which argument is more convincing.

[Rycher]

It's like visiting several churches of different religions. They will ALL try to sell you on their God. In the end you have to see which church is better for you based on what they do for you. Just try some out, talk to some freinds with similar systems. I believe there are differences.

[kexodusc]

Be careful, this is one of the most intense and bitter debates in the audio world.
Yes, people fail 100% of the time to consistenly demonstrate that they can hear audible differences between cables.
Yes, these tests are not conclusive or all encompassing in determining that these differences don't exist, and are flawed in many ways.

I think the bigger point here is what is the most effective allocation of your financial resources. Pretty much everyone I know will put cables dead last when building a system...that should tell you something.

[Rycher]

Be careful, this is one of the most intense and bitter debates in the audio world.

Next to religion. Even though you want to kill some people in the audio world, it's safe to say it only happens in the religious world.


Yes, people fail 100% of the time to consistenly demonstrate that they can hear audible differences between cables.

People also fail to prove there is a Diety.


Yes, these tests are not conclusive or all encompassing in determining that these differences don't exist, and are flawed in many ways.

So are peoples beliefs in their religion of choice.


I think the bigger point here is what is the most effective allocation of your financial resources.

Exactly. It's my money. If I want to buy an expensive cable, that's my call and I should'nt be chastised for it.


Pretty much everyone I know will put cables dead last when building a system...that should tell you something.


The people I know put just an importance on cables as anything else in their system. Maybe THAT should tell you something.

Anyway, that's just one guys opinion.

[kexodusc]

Rycher, I put importance on cables too, my point is to not try buying a $500 cable to fix or supplement $500 speakers, unless you're sure that will sound better than any other use of $1000...it's just not effective...They don't by nature contribute as much to the sound, though shouldn't be neglected.

As for your comments about religion and dieties...not sure what blind faith has to do with a item we actually CAN physically touch, see, and hear and measure. I trust when people tell me they hear a difference, that they do in fact hear it, not that they blindly believe that difference exists and trick themselves into hearing it. If they then fail to demonstrate this, then there's either a flaw in the test (psychologist will argue this about DBT's) or the differences are perhaps very small and indistinguishable.
But there is a some validity when tests of other equipment in the chain DO present valid, consistent results. Why not cables? What's so special about them?

[Resident Loser]

"...I can't find statistics either proving or disproving that spending $100 for interconnects could be worth my time."

Well, you probably won't...that is until jneutron reveals all, sometime in the future...

Insofar as "proof" is concerned, as it stands now, and to my best understanding, there is no real measurable or quantifiable, repeatable tests results that would indicate there is any difference between wires of similar length and gauge...there are however claims, unsolicited testimonials and a truckload of "hype" surrounding what is a relatively recent "cottage industry"...Everything from the color and/or composition of dielectric materials to the atomic structure of the particular choice of metal in the conductors is ripe for the ad copy...and my forever, all-time fave: some oblique reference to NASA and the space program.

That isn't to say there cannot be a difference between wires, but is that difference actually an "improvement" or simply a difference...That seems to be a determination best left to the individual who'll be payin' the freight. One probably can, through repeated trial and error, arrive at a combination of wires and active components that might deliver sonic Nirvana...however the results will be very specific and be dependent on how the gear interfaces electrically, the quality of the source material and the ears of listener who has done all the legwork...I might walk into someones listening room and decides it sounds like cr@p! I don't have your hardware, your software, your acoustic environment or most importatntly, your ears.

Wire distributors( I use that word because it seems few actually manufacture much of anything they sell) buy off-the-shelf wire and connectors in such quantity, the actual mfrs. will print those distributors names on the hardware, and it can be misleading to some; they don't provide real specs or measurements beyond what the mfr. specs them out as. And I apologize to those who might think otherwise, but providing resistance and capacitance numbers consisting of a decimal point followed by any number of zeros, per foot, is really quite meaningless...as is the fact that the signal travels at somewhere around the speed of light. Just more hype IMHO. These websites are the worst place for gleaning any real info.

Disproof? No one can disprove what someone else claims to hear...BUT...dare I say it out side the confines of the "lab"...there are test procedures currently in use that could, if administered properly, end the debate...The wire folks won't do it...no one wants to kill the "golden goose"...they can't afford to...The objectivists may try on occasion...but since most(if not all) end with null results, those tests are deemed inadequate or worse by some, no matter how compelling proponents may find them.

Some advice culled from the posts of the more reasonable among after-market advocates follows: ...you probably won't hear much of anything with less than SOTA gear...what you will hear will be subtle at best...price is no barometer of performance...DIY outperforms most hi-zoot wiring...if it makes everything sound good, there is something wrong...and... you will get better results from matching your equipment properly and paying attention to your listening environment than you will from any wire...


Back to your question about a source for info...here at AR is probably as good as any for a sort of balance of opinion...Audioholics tends to present more of the objective viewpoint and AA...well, what can one say about AA that hasn't already been said...suffice it to say they are ultra-subjectve...The informatinal links at each of these sites pretty much reflects that same degree of balance.

You can spend your time auditioning wires and components in an effort to get the nth degree of playback satisfaction or you can simply listen to the music...I prefer the latter.

So, unfortunately, you are pretty much left to your own devices...stick with decent OEM wire and/or reasonably priced, well-made, generic stuff or go for the more expensive stuff...If you are of a mind and ability to do so, try some of the DIY recipes...or not.

jimHJJ(...save your money, buy more music...)

[musicoverall]

[QUOTE=Resident Loser
You can spend your time auditioning wires and components in an effort to get the nth degree of playback satisfaction or you can simply listen to the music...I prefer the latter. )[/QUOTE]

Or... you can do both. I prefer doing the former so I can appreciate more the latter. I do agree the differences are subtle. But I also feel they are musically significant.

[Aric M L]

I get that people have beliefs about what their wires do or do not accomplish. And by the posts here, no one is really likely to give room on it. But so are there no actual sources to find the test data that "scientifically" more expensive cables can make a true difference in my audio system? I'm a graphs guy too, a graph or table would be nice too

[Pat D]

I get that people have beliefs about what their wires do or do not accomplish. And by the posts here, no one is really likely to give room on it. But so are there no actual sources to find the test data that "scientifically" more expensive cables can make a true difference in my audio system? I'm a graphs guy too, a graph or table would be nice too

Audioholics has measured some speaker cables. Here's a link to their cable section:

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...les/cables.htm

They do not give any actual audibility data but one can compare it with information available on the ABX site. The ABX site shows the results of a few double blind tests. The first is for the matching criteria. If the difference is above the appropriate curves, then the differences should be audible under some circumstances. If they are below the curves, there is no guarantee that the difference is inaudible, and some maintain the curves are not stringent enough. However, appropriate cables are accurate enough to be well below the curves as shown on the ABX site..

http://www.pcavtech.com/abx/abx_crit.htm

The following link shows the results of some DBTs.

http://www.pcavtech.com/abx/abx_data.htm

[E-Stat]

But so are there no actual sources to find the test data that "scientifically" more expensive cables can make a true difference in my audio system? I'm a graphs guy too, a graph or table would be nice too

Nor will you find such available for any other audio component. Yes, you'll find tons of graphs, waterfall plots, square wave responses, etc., but none of those will directly translate to what you hear with any of them. There are quite a few amplifiers from Crown to Pass Labs with poorer distortion figures than their predecessors, yet sound better.

I quickly learned that the McIntosh clinic presentation of a distortion graph of my AR amplifier back in '72 was worthless.

rw

[Pat D]

Nor will you find such available for any other audio component. Yes, you'll find tons of graphs, waterfall plots, square wave responses, etc., but none of those will directly translate to what you hear with any of them. There are quite a few amplifiers from Crown to Pass Labs with poorer distortion figures than their predecessors, yet sound better.

I quickly learned that the McIntosh clinic presentation of a distortion graph of my AR amplifier back in '72 was worthless.

rw

I'd like to see a waterfall plot for interconnects and speaker cables! I've seen them for speakers, of course.

I'll turn a superaudiophile type argument back on you: just because you can't get anything out of a good set of measurements doesn't mean nobody else can.

[Lensman]

To those of you who come here with statements of how speaker wires dont matter to the point where 12 Gauge lamp cable would work as well as anything else, or evne to those who say that $500 interconnects can transfer signals with more accuracy.. Is there actually a source for this information? I'm looking into cables righ tnow and would like to make an educated decision as I'm sure you all can justify having done yourself. The problem is I can't find statistics either proving or disproving that spending $100 for interconnects could be worth my time. Any help would really help clear this fuzzy issue for me and probably a few other casual readers who want to know where these statements come from.

Here another link for consideration from the website of Roger Russell, former Director of Acoustic Research at McIntosh:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

[E-Stat]

Here another link for consideration from the website of Roger Russell, former Director of Acoustic Research at McIntosh:

Completely devoid, of course, of any testing substantiation. How were they tested? Using what equipment? Test tones or music? Who participated? Or making earthshattering claims like the 1983 Stereo Review Dares to Tell the Truth reference claiming 16 gauge lamp cord is better than 24 gauge lampcord. Indeed, if you are using 24 gauge lampcord, then high end cables are most definitely not for you. Most of references are quite dated, except for the 2001 Sound and Visions addition. I particularly enjoy that one's informative conclusion:

12 gauge should be heavy enough for any reasonable domestic application.

rw

[Lensman]

Completely devoid, of course, of any testing substantiation. How were they tested? Using what equipment? Test tones or music? Who participated? Or making earthshattering claims like the 1983 Stereo Review Dares to Tell the Truth reference claiming 16 gauge lamp cord is better than 24 gauge lampcord. Indeed, if you are using 24 gauge lampcord, then high end cables are most definitely not for you. Most of references are quite dated, except for the 2001 Sound and Visions addition. I particularly enjoy that one's informative conclusion:

12 gauge should be heavy enough for any reasonable domestic application.

rw

I make no judgement call on the issue, but offer the link as another point of view from someone who can claim experience in the area. Like you, I could want for more specifics on the precise testing method employed and the individuals who participated. However, as one who has conducted group marketing studies, it is both believable and understandable that a company like McIntosh would have an interest in answering the question to their own satisfaction but not to anyone else's. It would not benefit them at all to polarize their potential customers for an against them. Thus the testing is likely done under less than controlled conditions and be subject to close scrutiny.

He does, however, make some statements that I think people on both sides of the issue would generally agree upon:

Reducing wire resistance is a critical factor in improving sound through wiring.

Oxygen-free wire has less resistance because the impurity, iron, is removed
in the process.

Silver wire has less resistance than copper wire.

Reducing the resistance "too low" does not diminish sound quality.

Cheap wire can increase resistance due to corrsion.

What places him with the scientific/objectivist crowd (aside from all the stuff at the end) is his statements that:

Lowering resistance of wire can done by increasing the gauge of cheap wire
instead of buying wire made from more expensive materials.

Beyond a certain amount of resistence reduction, there is no audible
difference in sound.

However, he appears to provide the subjectivist/observationalist crowd with some justification for their views with his points that:

The impedance of most speaker systems is not constant with frequency.

Systems with different impedance fluctuations require wire with different resistance.

High-end equipment can have impedance values that vary considerably from the
norm (such as the 4 ohm speaker he mentioned).

This, of course, excludes justifying people with low or mid-grade level equipment who claim advantage from expensive cabling, but I've seen many in the subjectivist/observationalist crowd that do that as well.

I'll be the first to state I'm no electrical engineer. So I may be way off base, but my interpretation of all this seems to indicate:

Most average systems would not gain benefits from expensive wiring because the amps and speakers run impedance ranges that lie within more standard norms for typical consumer electrical equipment. Though there may be impedance variances from component to component, none are sufficiently large that they could not be handled with typical zip cord of reasonable thickness.

High-end equipment has impedance values that may vary considerably from the norm, requiring wire with different resistance values. So it is conceivable that the electrical load on certain combinations of speakers and amps could be such that wire of unusually low resistance could be required to fully handle the impedance variances.

[E-Stat]

What places him with the scientific/objectivist crowd (aside from all the stuff at the end) is his statements that:

Lowering resistance of wire can done by increasing the gauge of cheap wire
instead of buying wire made from more expensive materials.

Beyond a certain amount of resistence reduction, there is no audible
difference in sound.

However, he appears to provide the subjectivist/observationalist crowd with some justification for their views with his points that:

The impedance of most speaker systems is not constant with frequency.

Systems with different impedance fluctuations require wire with different resistance.

High-end equipment can have impedance values that vary considerably from the
norm (such as the 4 ohm speaker he mentioned).

Despite all this fuss about resistance, it completely ignores what is likely the more important of the three primary wire criteria: inductance. My cables have about one-sixth the inductance of 12 gauge zip.

Most average systems would not gain benefits from expensive wiring because the amps and speakers run impedance ranges that lie within more standard norms for typical consumer electrical equipment.

Agreed. Not to mention "average systems" are lower in resolution to warrant the effort. As with any piece of equipment, I believe it is all about matching electrical and performance capabilities.

rw

[Lensman]

Despite all this fuss about resistance, it completely ignores what is likely the more important of the three primary wire criteria: inductance. My cables have about one-sixth the inductance of 12 gauge zip.

Certainly a valid consideration. It'd be interesting to ask Russell about that.

...Not to mention "average systems" are lower in resolution to warrant the effort. As with any piece of equipment, I believe it is all about matching electrical and performance capabilities.

Well said. I believe there'd be less arguing on the subject if everyone thought that way.

[Pat D]

Despite all this fuss about resistance, it completely ignores what is likely the more important of the three primary wire criteria: inductance. My cables have about one-sixth the inductance of 12 gauge zip.


Agreed. Not to mention "average systems" are lower in resolution to warrant the effort. As with any piece of equipment, I believe it is all about matching electrical and performance capabilities.

rw

Have you measured you speaker wire? Has someone else measured it and published it? If not, how do you know how much inductance it has? As well, have you any idea how the frequency response of your system is affected by your cables? If not, how do you know how important the inductance is?

I believe your speakers get quite low in impedance at some point, which makes the resistance important.

[jneutron]

Despite all this fuss about resistance, it completely ignores what is likely the more important of the three primary wire criteria: inductance. My cables have about one-sixth the inductance of 12 gauge zip.
rw

What is the inductance, capacitance, and resistance of your speaker wires, and what are the lengths?

Cheers, John

[Mash]

OKaaayyyy

"The generation of a soundstage requires ITD and IID information. IID is what Davis speaks on. Nowhere is there anything about ITD. ITD is probably the most important parameter for localization of sound.."

And then we read:

"If a different set of cables truly changed the ITD content, then how long does it take for the human mind to re-aquire the imaging construct? If it takes several days for the mind to re-adjust to the different ITD configuration, then fast switching, consistent with standart DBT protocols, is useless. "

OK- I got lost by this elusive "IF" : " If it takes several days for the mind to re-adjust to the different ITD configuration...." combined with "...then fast switching, consistent with standart DBT protocols, is useless. " Huh? A speculative IF can dismiss the validity of DBT? I don't get it. DBT is ONLY intended to determine IF a difference can be perceived, or IF a difference CANNOT be perceived, between the paired items being tested. If the difference CANNOT be perceived, then why would you worry about any previously-presumed distinctions between those test items? Move on to distinctions that you demonstrate you CAN perceive......

Why are we worrying about whether the mind can re-adjust to a different ITD configuration...? Sounds waaayyyy too metaphysical to me.

[Mash]

I think the night vision analogy is not good. Assuming the eyes are healthy and normal, their pupils must simply open to admit more light when the individual leaves the lighted room for the moonless forest. This is a well known response of the eye(s) to a change in ambient lighting.

The Stereopile Test CD (#3, I believe) has JA walking from the back of a church up toward a pair of stereo mikes located at the front pews as he hits a cow bell. The intended listener is "midway in the pews". If I play this cow bell test over a stereo pair of coned speakers, JA only becomes louder as he "supposedly walks", but he never seems to move toward me. If I play this cow bell test over my (stereo pair) of Futterman-driven Tympani, JA seems to move toward me as he becomes louder. Of course, if JA were to continue walking past the mikes at the front pews and toward the front of the church, I would probably perceive him as turning around and walking back to the far rear of the church. Now mind you, I use RS Gold I/C and 12 Ga zip speaker wires. Since I hear the spatial effect as JA apparently intended, it would seem that I have no need to buy exotic (read: expensive) wires. But I only get the spatial effect with the Tympani and not with the coned speakers I tried. I will have to try it with the Magnepans now in my bedroom, even tho they are powered with a Class A SS amp.

[Mash]

Yep. JA did 3 seperate "localization demos":
Left-rear to center front;
Center-rear to center front; and
Right-rear to center-front.

I would have to go look at the "instruction booklet" to be sure, but I believe he walked an "L" path for the first & last demos.

Yes, Magnepans are basically "resistive".

Cone drivers are intended to act as rigid pistons, and we know that nothing in the real world is truely rigid. Well... with one possible exception..... We also know that adding material to add stiffness means adding mass.

[Mash]

Aric
I don't know if anyone ever really answered your question about where the information on speaker wire (and I/C, for all practical purposes) comes from........

EE's have done much work on these questions for the power industry, for the military, and so forth. There are innumerable EE handbooks available for you to read. Bookpool.com specializes in excellent reference books. Amazon.com also sells such books. Both provide reader book reviews, which include 'star' ratings between '1' and '5', with '5' being the very best.

My preference is to consult those who have no financial interests in my ultimate decision. Would you expect an unbiased answer from a Chevy dealer if you were to ask him whether you should buy a new Chevy or a new Toyota? I also consult those who do not have an abiding "ego investment" involved. If someone has spent big bucks on something, they are unlikely to admit that their purchase was foolish or unnecessary.... aren't they?

Here is an easy read to get you started:
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

[NoMSG]

To those of you who come here with statements of how speaker wires dont matter to the point where 12 Gauge lamp cable would work as well as anything else, or evne to those who say that $500 interconnects can transfer signals with more accuracy.. Is there actually a source for this information? I'm looking into cables righ tnow and would like to make an educated decision as I'm sure you all can justify having done yourself. The problem is I can't find statistics either proving or disproving that spending $100 for interconnects could be worth my time. Any help would really help clear this fuzzy issue for me and probably a few other casual readers who want to know where these statements come from.

Whether it's wires or tires, I don't buy the most expensive thing out there just because there are no tests to show that it ISN'T better--I think this is totally bass ackwards. If you have a limited budget, you try to spend your money where it makes the most appreciable difference. Let the salesman at the shop PROVE TO YOU that he should be getting an additional $200 of your money for those shiny wires.

Those who buy high priced wires will tell you that there is no way to definitively DISPROVE that (1) they personally can hear a difference, or (2) wires many times more expensive than 12-guage zip cord objective sound "better." I can't argue with that kind of logic or conclusions.

A few years ago, when I blew a driver in my Paradigm CC-350 center channel speaker, I took the driver out to mail it back to the dealer. I was chagrinned when I saw that all the wires connecting the woofer appeared to be only 18 gauge (or maybe even thinner). Not only that, the wire was connected to the driver not by solder, but by a simple tension clip--the kind you find on low-end automotive speakers. So any weak link in the signal that leaves your receiver/amp is in the internal connections/wiring of the actual speaker. Although my $350 speaker is not high end, I wouldn't be surprised if other high-buck speakers used similar internals.

Look, if you believe can hear a difference that is worth the additional money, then go for it. But, like anything else, don't buy based on blind faith.

[Geoffcin]

A few years ago, when I blew a driver in my Paradigm CC-350 center channel speaker, I took the driver out to mail it back to the dealer. I was chagrinned when I saw that all the wires connecting the woofer appeared to be only 18 gauge (or maybe even thinner). Not only that, the wire was connected to the driver not by solder, but by a simple tension clip--the kind you find on low-end automotive speakers. So any weak link in the signal that leaves your receiver/amp is in the internal connections/wiring of the actual speaker. Although my $350 speaker is not high end, I wouldn't be surprised if other high-buck speakers used similar internals.

Look, if you believe can hear a difference that is worth the additional money, then go for it. But, like anything else, don't buy based on blind faith.

And there is a difference, at least with the B&W's my friend has. One of his vintage Matrix III's had a problem with cutting out because of a defective protection circuit. We took the crossover out and got a good look at the internals. I'm happy to report that the whole assembly was built like the proverbial "brick ****house" with 12ga wiring throughout, and quality hand soldering. B&W rebuilt his crossover free of charge, even though it was 10 years out of warrenttee! Sometimes you do get what you paid for.